Episode 078: Managed or Micromanaged How to Deal

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All right. Welcome back for another episode of the Fleet Success Show. I'm your host, Josh Turley, joined today again by Jeff Jenkins. Hey, hey, hey. So we got a, what do you call it, not a reader, listener.

Some feedback.

Suggested topic.

That's right.

Asking the question about how do you deal with a boss that micromanages you?

That doesn't happen, first of all.

It never happens. Yeah. And so my first reaction whenever I see, you know, somebody talk about micromanagement is I always remember Patrick Lencioni had an article talked about, and maybe it was a podcast, but he talked about, is it micromanagement or just management?

Right, because there is a difference.

And I think sometimes we automatically jump to, stop micromanaging me, you know, and like, stop hounding me on stuff, when in reality it's just management. You know, it's, where are you at on this? Are you doing the things you're supposed to be doing? You know, you're walking out to the shop floor and you find out who's doing what. We've got a little activity screen, like a gallery screen, that shows everybody what job they're currently on. And we get a lot of response on that is that, well, that's micromanagement. And you have to just like, well, no, hold on. That's just management, right? We're just, we're measuring what's being done and we're keeping apprised of everything.

It's visibility, right?

Because that's what, like, management is really just the management of resources, right? We're strategically placing resources where they need to be to achieve the mission of the organization. And if you don't know where the pieces are or what they're doing or what they're working on or where the problems are and the processes that need to be fixed, then you're not really doing anything. You know, like, that's where mistakes happen. That's where, you know, you get dust and grime in the wheels, so to speak. And so that's the question that I always ask is, you know, is that micromanagement or is it just management? And so how do you know the difference between the two? We went out and we're like, well, let's Google. Like, what does Google say about micromanagement? And the biggest thing they came out with is, you know, do they— how closely do they observe, control, and, you know, I guess, uh, repeatedly remind you of what you're supposed to be doing, right? Uh, so we had a couple questions, you know, and maybe this applies to you, is if you think you're being managed or micromanaged and you're trying to figure out, well, is this micromanagement or just management? The first question is, are they telling you how to do your job? Like, this is exactly what you need to do, and you know, you need to come in at this time of day, and, and that's where the micro part comes in. Right, telling you what you should be doing, that's management. Telling you how you spend your time and where to do it and how to do it, that's micromanagement. That's quite literally the word micro, right? Because you're looking for results, but getting all the way down to the minutia, right? And that's like the, the minute-by-minute detail or the schedule, or, you know, well, are you, you know, you spend 15 minutes on this and how much time are you spending on this and And that's why people get a little bit— when we talk about the shop environment, we implement a time clock or something and they start feeling micromanaged because now you're managing it to the minute. Um, so that's the first thing you look at is, you know, are they telling you how to do your job, you know, and what you should be working on and how, how you should be— like the actual process I would go through, you know, like this is your step-by-step instruction. And then they watch you do that. So that's the other thing, is are they closely observing you follow their instructions to the letter?

Yes. And I would like to point out that when you first start a job, typically someone is going to take you through that step-by-step process. Oh yeah. I mean, you're learning, you're new, they've got a process that they do. That's not micromanagement. That's showing you how things are done. However, as you pick up the job and you go along, like you just said, if it's a step-by-step looking over your shoulder, making sure you do everything the way that they outlined, that's a little different.

Yeah, so you look at that and the— how much leeway do you get as you grow, right? And then the second thing that you look at is, well, what are they focused on? Are they focused on the activities and the, you know, like the day-to-day details, or are they focused on the end results, right? And are you delivering on the numbers? Are you delivering on your promises on the, you know, like, are you getting your PMs all compliant and are you getting— are your repair costs going down? Right. We talk a lot about resource efficiency and risk management. Are you delivering on those pillars of fleet success? If they're focused more on the activities and saying, okay, well, yeah, you're hitting your numbers, but you're not doing it the way I want to. That's probably micromanagement. Yeah, right. If you're hitting your number— if you're not hitting your numbers, then by all means, guess what? You're going to get a closer level of management because they're going to step in and say, the way you're doing it's not working. Here's the way that we've done it in the past and it's worked really well. Start here. Yep. And then if you want to improve something, by all means, try it. Right. But at least you get back to baseline. So that's something you have to look at too, is, you know, are you meeting the expectations? Do you know what they are supposed to be? The biggest issue I've usually seen in management is that managers aren't clear with what the results and outcomes need to be. And so they feel like they default back to measuring the activities because they haven't been clear up front in saying, this is what I expect, this is what we need to do. And so because of that, they can't focus on the results and outcomes and they immediately fall back to just measuring the activities and how they do what they do instead of what they're actually delivering.

Yeah, and I, and a lot of, I mean, I think there's a couple reasons that bosses micromanage. Uh, one, like you said, is you're not getting the results. And most managers have actually done the job and they've gotten results. That's why they've been promoted. So they know what the best practice is, what worked for them versus what didn't work for them. So they are trying to give you some tips and tools to help you out. And so usually it's best to listen. Now obviously there's different ways to do things, and there's nothing wrong with going and do things your own way. But as Josh said, if there's not results, then it's best to open up your mind a little bit and try something that you're, you're being asked to do. I would say if you feel like you're getting results and you're still getting micromanaged, there's a lot of different reasons or ways to address that as well. One is that typically when someone puts a lot of pressure on you, it's because they're a little bit insecure as well on their own job performance, right? Maybe they're not the best leader. Maybe they're not giving you the right tools that you need to be successful. And so they need to look at themselves as well and see if that's part of the problem, is what they're doing.

Or maybe if they're insecure though, they're not going to want to do that, right? Like, it's just like going to be a natural like, nope. You know, you can see their insecurity but their own insecurity keeps them from looking at themselves. And how do I, how do I fix, you know, like Michael Jackson's song, The Man in the Mirror? Yeah, right.

And they won't fix it, they'll just apply more pressure on you, right?

Exactly. And so it— there may not be a whole lot you can do other than, you know, this is where we talk about trust and vulnerability and trying to establish that type of relationship where you can be very candid and frank with that person to the point that you're not going to get fired. Right, because like a truly insecure person, when you, when you pick out somebody's flaws and they're insecure about it, they're going to react defensively unless they have that trust and vulnerability with you. And usually their defensive reaction is going to be to put you on an island, you know, and maybe we quiet quit you, you're quiet manage you, maybe we, right, like, you know, we, but we don't want to deal with it because why? Well, because you remind us of our own insecurities. And so you have to have, you have to look at that. And if you do have an insecure manager you've got to bridge that gap slowly, or you got to find another job, right? Like, that's the— it's pretty much the crux of it right there. Um, because if you don't deal with their insecurities, nobody else is helping them deal with it.

No.

Uh, and it's just going to keep perpetuating. And so something's got to change, or something's got to change. We like to say that a lot around here, right?

We do.

Um, you either have to bridge that gap of vulnerability and help them see where they're deficient and help them understand their own insecurities. You like— and that's amazing work. You do that with somebody, that's incredible work to help them through. Very worthwhile if you want to invest that time into them. But if you don't see that happening or you don't want to cross that bridge first and offer that, just know that something's got to change or something's got to change and you're going to do something and it's going to get yourself fired or you're going to have to quit. So it's kind of the, the nuts and bolts of that one. If you can get through to them on the, on the vulnerability side, or at least, you know, you'd want to try to be open-minded. And let's say they're not micromanaging or they're somewhere in between. A lot of times it's just communication, you know. Most the time it's just communication, understanding what's going on. And one of the first things I usually like to do is like, you have to understand what their motivations are.

Yep.

Like, why is it? And maybe it's their insecurity But maybe it's like they do have their own pressures coming down and they're putting that pressure on you. They might have more context than you do. And so you have this one aspect that you're in charge of, but you don't realize that you're causing ripples in other departments. Being— they see it because of the context. So you feel micromanaged, but it's just because you lack context.

So get that insight.

Shame on them for not giving you the context you need. But the flip side is you need to seek to understand, right?

And there's nothing wrong with asking, right? Can you help me understand how this may affect other departments? Can you help me understand the full process or the full project, not just my small piece?

Right. And I'm having a hard time understanding, like, why this process is so critical to achieving this outcome. I think I've got some other ideas, but I want to make sure I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Right.

And you could even say that, and hopefully they'll be responsive to it. A lot of times what happens when we get micromanaged or we have that, you know, somebody's breathing down our neck, we get defensive ourselves. And Brené Brown's got this, this whole concept called the story we tell ourselves, all right? And it's where we start assuming, you know, negative intent, or we start telling ourselves a story about somebody else's motivations. And this is like straight out of Patrick Lencioni's Five Dysfunctions, is when you start assuming somebody else's motivations or you don't assume positive intent then it's impossible for you to have trust, and it's impossible for you to truly appreciate whatever it is they're doing, and they can't appreciate whatever it is you're doing, and you'll never move forward, and you'll be stuck in that position forever. So really try to understand, like, what are their motivations? Why would they tell you what they're telling you? Why would they be micromanaging you, or managing you in a way you feel is micromanaging? Um, and try to understand You know, this is empathy. Like, this is the literal definition, is to put yourself in their shoes and learn all you can about what they're dealing with in their position. Not their position from your perspective, but literally their position from their perspective, and understanding what they're dealing with and why that— why they're motivated to have the interactions that they're having with you the way they are.

And most bosses are not going to have a problem with you asking that question. Like, there's no reason to. If you're coming from a place of, hey, I want to understand, right, this is affecting you, how is my performance, what I am doing affecting you, they're not going to sit there and be like, well, it's none of your business, just go do what I'm telling you to do, right? I mean, if that's the response, then you got a prick for a boss, you probably need to leave anyway.

Yep.

But they're going to help you understand, right? Especially if they know that you really care about what's going on and they want to see you make improvements.

Yeah. Now, if you come in, you're like, look, I really don't appreciate the way you're doing this, and You go in on attack mode, it's not going to end well. No. Right? So you have to look at yourself and take that piece of humble pie, but walk in there with that— I'm trying to remember who had the quote, but seek first to understand. Once you understand, then you can start offering solutions or work together on a problem together. But if you don't really understand what their motivations are or why they're doing a thing, you're never going to be able to solve the problem effectively. You're just going to be stuck. Another sign, if they, you know, if you're not sure if they're quite micromanaging or if it's just management, and I think this is hard for especially young managers, right? But they've got to give you a chance to do the thing they ask you to do. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I've had this in the past, right, where somebody says, hey, I need this thing done. And the first mistake that a, you know, a young inexperienced manager will make, or a poor experienced manager will make, is they won't give you a deadline. Open-ended. Open-ended, right? So your first responsibility has to be by when. You need to be very clear about what needs to be done, by when, and then we already covered why does this need to be done, right? And maybe that's just millennial in me is asking why all the time, but at the very least you need to know when something is due. From that side, right, like a micromanager will come in and let's say they say, "Hey, by Friday, I need to have this assignment done." You know, maybe this is a Wednesday the week prior. The micromanager will come in every minute, you know, every day. "Hey, where's this thing at? Hey, how's this thing going? You know, are you stuck on anything? Can I help you with it? When do you think you'll have it done by?" Right? And they're just like constantly— there's a difference between checking in and saying, "Hey, 'Are you doing okay with that? Do you need any help?' Yep. And then just moving on quickly, right? Like just a quick pop-in versus a 'How's it going? Can you show me where you're at? How's this look? Uh, are you gonna have it done by Friday?' And then asking you that every single day, right? Like that's quintessential, you know, just textbook micromanagement.

So that, that actually tells you something too. It tells you that that boss is worried as well.

Trust you?

No, does not trust you at all. Is worried that you're going to get that done when it's supposed to be done, right? Or up to the level that it needs to be done. Um, so you've got to establish credibility as well as you go through this whole process. Um, but yeah, the guy's worried, or the woman, whoever it is, they're worried that you're not going to get it done because there is no trust there.

Um, and, or if you do get it done, it's going to be subpar or not what they wanted.

Yes.

And that goes back to, you know, maybe they're not a great communicator and they didn't communicate what they were expecting. Or, you know, if I were the manager in that case, I would say, well, I would actually set the deadline for Monday as, hey, I need this done by Friday, but I want to check what you have by Monday. And like, let's just, you and I, circle on it and discuss it so we can make sure we're going the right direction.

Yeah. And I was actually going to say, if you have a boss doing that, solicit feedback. So start the project, do a little bit of it, and then, hey, is this what you wanted? To make sure that you're on the same page so it doesn't come to that point to where it's due and they're like, yeah, this isn't what I wanted. There's nothing wrong with asking someone for feedback. Hey, am I on the right track? Do you, do you think I should be going down a different road? Whatever the case may be.

Well, and what that does too is it still leaves them feeling in control, right? And yep, by having that feeling of control, they lessen some of the control they're trying to exert, right, and regain and recapture. But it's still like you have to kind of go in humbly and ask for that feedback and be willing to change direction, even if it's not the direction you originally wanted to go. Again, if you don't understand the why or the context, you know, like what's the, what's the objective of this? It's hard for you to know exactly what needs to be done without doing that check-in. We call it here, you know, like between our product engineering teams, we call them hip checks. Like we just need to go in and do a quick hip check is like we're going to bump up next to each other and we're just going to volley real quick, make sure that we're focused on the right thing. This is what you told us to do. Is this what you're expecting? Because otherwise what will happen is you'll get to the end of a project and it won't be what you were expecting because we're terrible communicators. Yeah, we don't communicate what it is exactly we wanted and why we wanted it. Somebody might get close, but those hip checks just again give us an opportunity. We call them syncs if you want to call them a sync. I just want to sync up on this idea real quick. And that keeps a lot of pain and friction out of the way because what you're doing is incrementing increasing the communication velocity and increasing, hopefully increasing the communication quality, uh, just by, you know, doing more of it. There's more communication that's happening, and so therefore you're going to be more in line. So let's say you, you've, you've got a micromanager who's totally insecure, they're not changing, and you're at a position like you just— I think I've already kind of said it, right? You've You either got to change or you got to change. Yeah, something's got to change. What do you kind of see as like, this is, this is your next steps?

Well, I think if you've gone through the steps and given them every opportunity, right, and this doesn't seem like there's going to be any change going forward, you've had the conversations, you've communicated, you've, you know, solicited feedback, you've tried to establish credibility, you've done the things that you've been required to do, and and it just doesn't seem to change, I think you have two choices. You can either do a skip level and go to their boss and check in and see, you know, what the issue is or if you can get any help there. And if you can't get any help there, you're probably better off just going somewhere else.

And do be careful doing skip levels, right? Sometimes that can come back around. And so you need to be careful about how you word things, how you phrase things. And you can just say like, hey, I think I'm like, I'm lacking context is one of my favorite things to say. And I just need some more information on the direction this is headed or how this is impacting other departments.

You could also just very general, just, hey, just I'm curious from your perspective how my performance is. I've talked to my leader and I've gotten his feedback. I'm curious what your feedback is for me and see if it's two totally different things.

Yeah. Now, mind you that your, your manager's manager probably will have a lot less interaction with you. Like, I even see that here is that somebody will ask me that question. I'm like, well, based on what I see, yes, right? But I don't see very much. And so, you know, like, your manager's opinion is going to have a lot more weight with me than my interactions with you because I just don't do that very often, right? Like, I don't get to sit in the pits with you. Um, you know, if you're— depending on your work environment, that might not be as big of a case, right? Like If you're a shop foreman and a fleet manager, you might have a lot more interactions with the staff and the techs. So that can kind of change things a little bit too. A little bit. You have to kind of look at that relationship and, you know, if it's somebody that you are working with fairly frequently, you should absolutely be able to ask for that feedback and that clarification. And it does help you gut check some of your own, like maybe this, this boss comes in and says, hey, yeah, well, I'm actually seeing this and like you're not getting enough clarity. Before you start on a project and you don't really understand the context, well, that tells you maybe your boss isn't micromanaging. He's just not— he or she, I should say— isn't just communicating with you what needs to be done, why it needs to be done. So you've got to solicit that more. But it does tell you that the problem is more with you rather than with your manager.

Well, of course, especially if you've had the same problem over and over again with different bosses, with different companies.

And I think that would be a pattern to look for, right? Like, if you're the same You know, like if you— every experience you've had has been that you deal with micromanaging bosses, it probably is something you're doing right. Uh, there's a book, and I actually love this book a lot for relationships, but it's called The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands, and it talks about like all the things that, you know, like women do to sabotage relationships. And I'm sure there's like a proper care and feeding of wives too, but it's— I haven't read that one yet. Um, but one of my favorite quotes in there is that, you know, like in this, you know, I don't remember who wrote this, I want to say it was like Laura Schlessinger or something like that. And she just talks about it. She's talking to women in marriage counseling and things like that, how, you know, these women will go through multiple divorces and they keep like, I just can't get my husband to do this thing, right? Like, I can't get him to, you know, take out the trash and do all that, you know. Some of this is fairly reasonable, but they just— the husbands never meet the expectations of the wife in this case, and they go through multiple divorces and multiple men, and they just— none of them are living up to the expectations. And She has the advice is like, you know, you keep trying to change the pants in the relationship, but it's really just the skirt that's the problem, you know, because it's still the same skirt, right? And so you have to ask yourself is, you know, am I trying to change the pants in this relationship, or like, is it still the same skirt? And you look at that when— if you keep having the same problem over and over again, it probably isn't the situation you're in, it's probably you. You know, so you got to look at yourself in the mirror and say, you know, am I just being too sensitive to micromanagement behavior? Because maybe it's not micromanagement, maybe it's just management. Or am I not communicating well enough with my superiors or with, you know, my peers on how things are being done, why they're being done a certain way? It's, you know, establishing credibility that like, I do know what I'm doing, but I haven't proven myself yet. And how do I do that in a way that if I'm never given an opportunity to fail? It's, it just always comes back to communication.

Yeah, and on the communication vein, I think one of the things you'll notice with a lot of people who micromanage is they don't have regular one-on-ones with the people they micromanage. That's like something that's missing, right? It's where you get that communication. It's where you establish that relationship. It's where you can get that credibility. So if you feel like you're getting micromanaged and you don't have a regular one-on-one time with your boss, it's something to suggest. And see if you can get that established. Because I bet if you did start having those weekly one-on-ones, a lot of that micromanagement will go away because you're forced to touch base every single week.

And this is— that's a good point too, right? Like, because sometimes I'll see that here, which is, well, we missed a one-on-one, you know. And, and I think sometimes it's our, our natural tendency to say, um, well, my boss will reschedule that, it's his responsibility, right? Like you have to fight for your time on that calendar. And, you know, as much as we harp on managers that you need to make time for your people and you need to set up one-on-ones and all that, I would push and say you as the employee or the, you know, the subordinate in this case, need to fight for that time just as intensely because it matters that much, right? Like, otherwise you're going to feel this micromanagement.

Absolutely. I've got two people that if we miss a one-on-one they're right away, when are we rescheduling this?

We're rescheduled, right? Like, and here's, here's some dates and times that I'm available, can we meet then, right? And they push for it because they've taken— and this is where Extreme Ownership comes into play— is if you're just waiting for somebody else to tell you, oh yeah, well, the one-on-one, you know, that didn't happen this week and maybe it's not as important as I thought it should be— if you're waiting for that, you're not really taking ownership of that relationship. You know, if you really want to take ownership of relationship It's like, no, I'm not letting this happen. We can miss a day, we can miss, you know, whatever, a week, but we're definitely doing a follow-up and rescheduling because that time is valuable to me to make sure that I'm doing the job you need done.

Exactly.

Otherwise you're going to be stuck in the situation where you can't meet their expectations because you don't know their expectations. So that's our advice on that topic today. Uh, if you have any other questions or feedback, I'd love to hear it over at podcast@rtafleet.com. If you want to get a new copy of the Fleet Success Playbook, you can email us again at that same email address, podcast@rtafleet.com. And we've got Fleet Success Summit coming up. I have, I think, quite a few speakers that are going to be getting announced here soon.

You've got actually 8 speakers that are set up right now.

All right. So we just keep adding to the roster. Yep. You can go check out updates to the roster coming out on fleetsuccesssummit.com. Com. Uh, we'd love to see you guys out there. It's going to be in Las Vegas, March 21st and 22nd at the Luxor. It's going to be an awesome time. So I'm already looking forward to a lot of these speakers that we've got lined up too.

It's going to be really good, honestly. I, I know of a lot of them and I think that's going to be very impactful. So you don't want to miss out.

Yeah. And I'm, I'm still lining up a couple extras as well. So like, I'm just super pumped about some of these other names that we've got on the list that we're, uh, we're trying to bring in.

So I'm excited.

Yeah. Like this roster is just going to be an amazing, you know, I talked about that last year was, you know, it's the '27 Yankees. And I'm like, I don't know how you beat the '27 Yankees, but clearly I don't think maybe last year wasn't the '27 Yankees. Maybe this is what happens when you're prone to hyperbole, as you say things that are just always, you know, better than the next thing.

Well, hopefully every year it's the '27 Yankees.

Maybe it could be the 1980 Miracle on Ice team.

Just change sports.

Just change sports and we'll get there. 2000s Patriots, like those, you know, some good squads there.

Yep.

All right, well, we'll get you next time, and until then, take care.

Thanks for joining us on this episode of the Fleet Success Show. If you like the show, we'd appreciate your 5-star review. Be sure to subscribe anywhere you listen to podcasts and come hang out with us on social media @fleetsuccess. See you next time.