Episode 115: The Fleet Success Show: Electric Vehicles - Where To Begin

Welcome back everyone to another episode of the Fleet Success Podcast. I am Mark Canton, Head of Product and Fleet Advisory Services at RTA Fleet, coming at you from Pereira, Colombia. And joining me today once again is Griffin Scott, our fleet management analyst extraordinaire. Griffin, thank you so much for being here today. How are you, bud?

I'm doing good. Thanks for having me again.

Great. So what I was hoping to talk with you a little bit about today were really EVs and all things associated with planning your transition to EVs, you know, actually doing that, whether it's a partially integrated fleet, an entirely integrated fleet. But before we get too deep into it, I want to give a big shout out to all my friends and colleagues who we will be seeing in October at FleetConnect. I'm really excited to say I'll be one of the keynote speakers along with Josh there. And I'm really excited. I'm hoping to see you all out in Fleet Connect in October. If you haven't registered yet and you're interested, please just go to rtafleet.com and check it out. We'd really love to see you all. So, Griffin, let's get into it a little bit. The first thing I wanted to kind of get into you, it's kind of like, you know, a lot of folks have either experienced what I'm about to say or experiencing it as we speak, or or about to experience it. And it's basically this. It's, you know, it's, you know, here you go, fleet manager. Here you go, fleet director. We want you to be X and X percent EV fleet by such and such a year, right? By next year, usually it feels like for a lot of fleet managers. Or we want, you know, whatever it may be, an 80% reduction in carbon emissions, you know, by next year. And all of a sudden folks are kind of feel like that's dropped in their lap and it can be overwhelming, right? You know, how do you start? What do you do to try to begin to tackle that or to cross that bridge, right? So what are your thoughts on there? What might be the first kind of, you know, your very first step that you want to do?

Yeah, I mean, that's honestly the big reason why a lot of organizations come to come to us to take a look at their fleets and even test, you know, is it possible to meet those mandates with the current, you know, selection of EVs out there? I think really the first thing to do is to look at the market, see what kind of assets are out there and if they match up with your own. You know, right now it seems the market is really, you know, there's a lot of sedans, SUVs, they're just now getting into light trucks. And then as far as the heavy-duty side, there's not much. It's really like specialized vehicles, like buses, school buses. But really, yeah, the first thing to do is to take a look and see, you know, is your fleet composition, is it even possible right now to become electric?

Right, right. Yeah, I think that's really important because I really think that that is the first step is to test that mandate or to test that goal that you've been handed. Or you can do it in reverse. If you've been given the autonomy to set the goal, then this is really a great way to set an appropriate goal. And I won't take credit for this. I got this idea from Paul Lauria, who many folks will have heard that name. But the idea I like to apply is simply this. If you take what your replacement plan is, your replacement strategy, assuming you have one— if not, you can look at historical replacement. And if you simply replace your assets on pace as you've been doing, and you can actually just almost like create an imaginary vehicle, right? All right. So, you know, essentially pretend that you replaced every asset with a zero emission vehicle, even though for the record, folks, zero emission vehicles don't actually exist. Zero tailpipe exists. Zero emissions don't exist. But we can save that for another show. But essentially, if every asset you replace was a zero emission asset, How long would it take you to then achieve that goal, whether it be a quantity or a percentage of EVs in the fleet, or whether it be, you know, a reduction in carbon emissions? And you can essentially calculate your carbon emissions at a baseline and then reduce that each time you replace it with an asset that doesn't have any carbon emissions to see, okay, can I hit that goal? You know, if you're supposed to be at 80% by 2027, but I continue to replace vehicles at the pace I'm doing it, can I hit that goal? If the answer is no, now you can go back to leadership. You can go back to, you know, the folks in finance and operations and say, guys, gals, we can't hit this goal and here's why. Or maybe you can hit the goal, which is great. In fact, maybe you can beat the goal. But by doing this upfront, what it does is, number one, it avoids surprises later. You don't accidentally paint yourself into a corner or get labeled a naysayer or something of that nature if you are unable to hit the goals. And it also allows the organization time to be strategic about potentially adjusting depending on how serious or how— what's the right word— or how prioritized this goal or this mandate is. You know, they might need to adjust funding instead of going to other projects, right? They may need to put more money into the replacement of assets in order to achieve that goal. But by taking this first step, it's overrated. I don't see many fleets do it. In fact, I'm unaware of any fleets that have done it outside of some of the groups that we've worked with. And I think it's really important because now you kind of jump into the project with your eyes wide open, right? No heads are in the sand about it and everybody has realistic expectations, which I just think is super important going forward, you know? So, and then you jumped into the, you know, the type of equipment, which is kind of really, that was next on my mind. Where do you want to go with that? You know? And in the studies we've done together, we've run into some interesting stuff, right? Things like the vehicle's weight. You know, for example, you might find an alternative for an F-350 or a 450, but because of the build, right, or the upfit, that upfit that's currently being used in the conventionally fueled vehicle that might be operationally necessary, now you have to essentially level up the chassis. Because of the additional weight of the battery, right? You can't fit the outrigger or the equipment or, or things of that nature.

Um, exactly.

Yeah. What are other things like that? Is anything that comes to mind? Like, you know, I'm imagining you, you were losing cargo space, uh, maybe sometimes passenger capacity, right? So kind of looking at the equipment related to what you have in the fleet now and what you, you you know, and what is available out there to replace it. Can you replace it without changing operation or not? What do you, do you have thoughts on that? Or, you know, what do you think?

No, you're exactly right. You know, a lot of the EV vehicles are kind of on the smaller side. So those are things you really have to consider is the cargo space, the passenger capacity. And really, you know, just, you know, you really mentioned it, you know, A lot of people, you know, are able to get away with some of the smaller trucks out there because they can carry a lot more. But realistically, as far as EVs go, those batteries are heavy. And so you're really going to have to consider or take that into consideration.

Right. Yeah. So now you've got lined up and maybe, you know, maybe in some cases changing how operations done is feasible. Right? And maybe in other cases it's not, you know, like, so, you know, is it realistic that you do an extra trip to the yard, let's say? You know, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. And that kind of will impact, you know, what's available. I remember we did one study and it was sort of, we ended up, you know, moving a lot of what were currently SUVs, large SUVs into half-ton pickup trucks. And that's because for that use case, that was fine. They didn't need a third row. They were just really using the cargo area. So that's the kind of thing you got to— you guys got to— we got to be open-minded about. You know, how can we sort of adjust or sort of change things up either to— can we tweak operations slightly? And if that's not feasible, you know, how do we adjust for the use case, right? So then what's the next piece? I would imagine the next piece has something to do with utilization. Talk to me about that. What would you do? You know, you're here, you are, you've been contracted to, to help build the transition plan. So you've tested the mandate. So people are aware. Now you've begun to basically try to line up equipment. By the way, let's go back to stuff. How do you line up that equipment? Like what are you doing? Are you just kind of going class code by class code? How do you work through that? Any best practices you could recommend to folks?

Yeah, exactly. It's taking a look at your classes and the type of vehicles within those classes and seeing if there's essentially a matchup. For it. And just like you said, if there isn't technically, you know, start to take a look at different classes and see if those can kind of replace what you have going on right now. So yeah, exactly. Taking a look at the class codes, you know, because generally most organizations, they're kind of buying the same types of vehicles. They're not buying a wide range of vehicles within a certain class. So you can typically get away with just looking at the class codes. And then yeah, on the utilization piece, it's really, you know, Sure, there's a type of EV asset of that kind of asset that you're trying to replace. But can that EV, you know, does it have the range to do the work that your current carbon vehicle is actually going through? So yeah, that's the next thing is taking a look at utilization. You know, how far can it go? Are you going to run out of battery? And if you are, if you're going on long trips, you know, maybe a pure battery electric vehicle isn't the way to go, maybe you want to consider a plug-in hybrid vehicle. Because a lot of those, you know, we found that most organizations can get away with the electric part of that vehicle, but you have the backup of the gas so you can keep going. And especially for emergency vehicles, when you want to make sure, you know, if it's an emergency and you don't have electricity to charge, you know, having that gas backup can really help. Help you achieve EV but also be prepared for emergencies.

Yeah, and so this is kind of like these two steps kind of cross each other over, right? Like you might have to go back and forth a little bit, right? So, and so what I mean by that, like in the light duty range when we're talking about administrative vehicles, maybe moving people, maybe moving stuff but not a ton of stuff, you know, we're, you know, we're really focused on range, right? But once you get into that medium duty and bigger, Some of the other, you know, you got to worry about, does it have the same towing capacity? Let's say, right? Does it, you know, can I do, do I have as much room in my bed? You know, let's say you're moving dirt or something, how many yards, you know, et cetera. So really it's all the various capacities and limits. Does that, does that EV alternative adequately replace what the conventionally fueled vehicles you know, work is being done, what its capacities are, and if not, how do you kind of— how do you work around that, right? Um, yeah, that's interesting. And then another decision you'll have to make too is at this point here is once you've sort of identified, you know, what's out there for each class of asset, I would imagine is a— you know, we, we don't talk about this quite as much, but it's really a big thing, uh, is the opera— you know, is how are you going to have your maintenance operation run? So for example, Right. You and I have kind of run into both ends of the spectrum where we've met customers who are— they're going EV and it's all costs. So if it's an aftermarket asset, that's okay. And then you get other customers who say, nope, we want nothing to do, even if it's a certified upfit, certified aftermarket, GM said it's fine to do it, you know, because they're scared of running into issues with getting somebody who can actually service the outfit or something of that nature, right? And so, and so that's a decision that you need to make. You need to do a little research there. I think depending on where you are in the country, that might be more of a concern than other parts. You can certainly work around the warranty thing, right? That's, that's pretty straightforward. Get a certified upfitter, get someone who GM or Ford or whoever you're looking at, Freightliner, Dodge, Ram, etc. As long as the OEM has certified that outfit, then, then even if you go into a normal service center, they have to honor your warranty for those parts that are standard parts. But that service can be, depending on where you are, um, a bit more challenging. And that's something you're going to really want to look into in advance, uh, I would imagine. You mentioned the PHEV thing, um, you mentioned, um, you know, long distance and so forth. I think, I think another key piece that often gets overlooked, or sometimes gets overemphasized depending on your perspective or who's, who's doing the work, is what are the other available charging infrastructures, right? So the only charging around, right, is at your home base. That's one thing. But maybe you're in an area where there are chargers all over the place, potentially. Those do exist nowadays. So can, you know, just kind of at a high level, maybe you can guide us through that. Like, is that possible? How do you incorporate that into your analysis? So, you know, is it GPS data, seeing where people go, where they stop? You know, what are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, it's really understanding kind of the local area that you work in and, you know, really taking a look at your current stock, essentially, of chargers around. You know, maybe 5, 10 years ago, this really wouldn't be a step because there wasn't much.

Right.

But we've seen really big growth in EV infrastructure coming around the country. So yeah, it's definitely something to consider, you know, because if you didn't consider this and you're only thinking about charging at home base, then you You know, if you have midday charges, you gotta come all the way home for them. But it's definitely something to consider because a lot of these stations, you know, they have Level 2 chargers, which can take an hour to 2 hours to charge. But a lot of them have Level 3 chargers, which can take you 10 minutes to 30 minutes to charge. So it's something you really gotta consider.

Right. All right, so what would be next on your radar? What would you do next? So now, so again, just, I'm gonna keep recapping as we go just to kind of hopefully keep it clear. You know, all right, so we've tested the mandate. We're going forward with our eyes wide open. We've looked into what equipment is out there compared to what our fleet needs are to see what can we realistically replace. Again, light duty should be pretty straight. It should be something available for you. So when you get into that medium duty range and you have upfits and things like that, that it starts to get a little more challenging. You gotta be a little more careful. Now you can figure that out, you know, which classes you're gonna replace with an EV, which you're not, or you can't, let's say, et cetera, et cetera. Now you've analyzed the usage, you know which specific vehicles are good candidates to replace with EVs, which aren't for whatever reason, whether it's their range or because of the capacity and you couldn't find another build or an alternative use type, right? So now what's next? What would you— what would be the next step you would take?

Yeah, so really it's kind of that infrastructure piece, kind of like what we were just talking about, but really looking at home. That utilization analysis is going to help you understand what should my expected daily charging be. Really, what's the load going to be on our electrical system? So really it's understanding that and taking kind of a closer look at kind of the chargers you should be considering. There's a lot of different chargers out there. I've already kind of mentioned them, but I'll just go over it real fast. You've got Level 1 chargers, which is really your wall outlets. That can take 24 hours to charge a vehicle right now. So that's really not something we suggest any kind of organizations that are looking to really transition. It's more kind of for at home. There's Level 2 chargers, which are going to be charging stations. Those can take, you know, depending on your utilization, anywhere from an hour to 10 hours to charge. And then, like I mentioned earlier, Level 3. So those are extremely expensive. You're talking about, you know, 10 times the cost of a Level 2 charger, but they get the job done fast. So really, you need to understand kind of almost with the utilization and the jobs that these vehicles are doing, you know, what kind of charger do you need for that asset? Are you going to be able to charge overnight? Are you going to be able— do you need to charge within 10 to 30 minutes? Is it an emergency vehicle? And then also things, you know, about the chargers, you know, is it a single charger? Is it a dual head charger? And what that means is, you know, a lot of these charging stations, you can either have like one plug-in or they'll split off into two. And so the thing about the dual chargers is they're not both charging at the rate of the charger. They split the charge of the charging station. And so it actually, you know, slows down how long it takes to charge up. So that's something to consider if you're doing overnight charging, the dual chargers might be a good option for you because it'll take up less space, it'll be less wiring. But if, if it's kind of more midday or you need them, you have a lot of assets that need to be charged pretty quickly, then you're going to kind of have to go with those single chargers.

Right. So that's, that's interesting. So, man, you've opened up a bunch of questions I want to ask you. But before we leave chargers in particular, Is this also this kind of question? I think it's a dying question, quite frankly, but let me ask you, you know, a network charger versus a non, let's say, network charger or not a network charger. Thoughts on that?

Yep. Yeah, so good question. Really kind of what, what you mean by that is, um, there's a lot of charging, um, organizations that will basically give you software to kind of help manage the chargers. And so you'll get a software that's basically tracking all of these chargers. You're able to almost— excuse me. If you're in a public setting and you're going to open up your chargers to the public, it'll kind of let you track that kind of information more. It'll let you set times where you can allow charging or set charging rates, especially if you have kind of those higher-end chargers. It lets you manage the situation a lot more. Non-network chargers, you don't get any of that. It's just installed there. You don't get any of the data or the information or the control over the chargers. So if you don't care about tracking any of that kind of stuff, you know, non-networked is cheaper. So if cost is prohibitive for you, you can look into that. But I would definitely suggest if you are looking to, you know, open it up to the public for your organization, definitely need networks so you can kind of track all that kind of stuff.

Right. Now forgive me because, you know, maybe I'm a bit of a nut about this stuff, but I think even in a private fleet setting, I would prefer that. I mean, like, you make a good point about cost. So that's— and listen, let's be honest, right? In the end, it's the dollar, right? That's what always matters. And yet there's this other side of me that says, boy, if you're going full-fledged into this transition, we'll talk a little bit more about it later. You're not doing it to save a buck, at least not today. Uh, so yeah, so, so the data that you can collect from that, even in a fleet setting or a private fleet setting, I think I would, I would want to know, okay, you know, how much charging did vehicle 1 need last night, right? Did it, you know, how much did it need? So you can get a sense of how much charge is getting used up during the day, etc., etc. And it's one of those things that I, I think I speak for you, I think you'll agree with, you know, collecting data You know, on the one hand, when you're doing analysis, you can get that overload. And we've talked about that, right? But at the same time, you don't know what you don't know. And so collecting data and having the ability to dig into that and to look for insights, you know, you always find them, but you don't always know what you're going to find. And so, you know, I certainly would encourage folks to consider the network charging unless it's just completely not possible because of cost. I don't know if you— Would you agree with that? Yeah, no, am I going too far?

Completely agree. And really, I think almost the big thing that people don't think about with the network chargers is like the setting the time that you can charge. Because if you know anything about electrical infrastructure, the rate of electricity, the cost of it depends on the time of day and when, like the peak usage of electricity during the day on the infrastructure. So you can basically set it to charge your vehicles if you're doing overnight charging to start charging once that rate is at the lowest. So you can likely pay off the difference between a network system and a non-network system. Excuse me, just from setting the charging times and setting it at that lowest rate to charge at.

Right.

So really, you know, I think it is a good idea to be networked. Um, right, right, realistically, right.

So now, so now you get— okay, so let's— I'll bring it kind of back on track because this is not the 'which chargers do we like better,' uh, show. But we can do that if folks, if folks comment enough and they want to hear more. We'll do whatever you guys like, you know that. Share your comments. But, um, you know, from, from here there's a lot you can do, I would imagine, right? Like, so now you— so like, if you, you know how much the assets are getting utilized, you have a sense from the OEMs of what the charging requirements are for the batteries, you can probably, I'm imagining, estimate therefore like how many chargers you need. And again, you've now looked at how things are being utilized, so you know that you need Level 3, Level 2, maybe for this site I need, you know, a Level 2 dual, et cetera. You have to figure all that out. But once you've kind of come up with sort of a go-forward scenario or scenarios, I would imagine now you can start to, you know, fairly realistically estimate things like how many chargers do I need? Where do they need to be installed based on domicile? And then what goes along with that, right? Like, how much is it going to cost me for each charger? Uh, you know, you can get pretty decent, um, let's say, or, you know, orders of magnitude on installation costs out there. That's available for research. I think the big one though is that infrastructure, right? Like, you know, yeah, that's, that's tough. What do you normally advise? I mean, are you able to come up with that, or do you normally advise? I know for me, I would normally advise clients, I think, to just kind of engage their local PE firm. And what I mean by that, folks, because you say— because I use the word installation, I'll leave that to you, Griffin. Explain the difference. What do we mean when we say installation versus the, the infrastructure costs? Like, what's the difference between the two? Because they sound like we're talking about the same thing.

They sound very similar. Yeah, installation is really just, um, you know, that, that company that's selling you the chargers, like, coming in and putting down the actual station. But the construction part of it all is, you know, working in your lot to wire up the lot so that the charging stations can be installed in the first place. So those are two totally different things. The installation of the chargers themselves, relatively cheap compared to the construction cost of tearing up your lot, installing wires, and making sure that you know, you have the wiring to reach the levels of charging for those stations, right?

Right.

So yeah, really the, the construction part, you know, you need to go work with an engineering firm, right, or someone to really design that kind of stuff, right?

But I would argue, and I guess I wish we had Tony here today because, you know, he's, he's our facilities expert, but I would argue don't go to them until you really know, you have a, have a really good sense of what charging you need, where you need it.

Yeah.

You don't want, you know, with respect, you want fleet to lead that, not the architects in the IT, right? Because then it's prepare for all scenarios kind of a thing, and it can get out of hand quickly in our experience. So have those requirements in hand, even if it is more than one scenario that you plan for, right? It's still better to go that route.

Yeah.

So there are incentives we've seen, right? I know we've done a lot of research on that. I'm sure you I mean, pretty much everybody these days. I mean, of course, don't quote me literally, folks. Uh, I know it's the internet, uh, but you know, I mean, you'd be hard-pressed not to find a plate, not to find some sort of local incentive if you're interested in this from the local energy companies. They're usually very willing and wanting to work for you because it's an investment in their long-term revenue fundamentally, right? Uh, if assuming you're gonna— that's how you're gonna set up. A lot of talk, we can't get into it now today for time, a lot of talk about you know, microgrids and things of that nature. Uh, we can talk about that if you guys are interested in another, another podcast. But the other one that I also don't see used much is there are a lot of solar and alternative energy companies that will, if you want, if money really is— going back to your point, Griffin, if money's a tremendous issue, they will come in and they will essentially do all this for you. And in turn, they get the right to sell you the electricity. And so it's something to look into, especially if you're in the right climate, right area for it. But the good news is there are people out there who are willing to help you even on cost. And there's a bunch of different ways you can go. So yeah, so that's interesting. The one thing too that your earlier comments mentioned to me is, you know, we talked about having to maybe change your operations in regards to the build of the asset, right? I can't move as many people, so I need to make an extra trip, just for argument's sake. But now there's this other element that you just mentioned. What do you got to like charging now? You have to then go back to that step and then reconsider that step again. If you're a 24-hour operation, guess what? You may need more assets than what you currently need because maybe just for argument's sake, it takes you 15 minutes to fuel your asset and charging is just going to take longer than that. And so you need more assets, right? Potentially. But you're starting to see now on the market even responses to that fundamentally, right? Like enRoute Charging, starting to see that more and more of that in some areas for transit buses and that sort of a thing. So, you know, real, real interesting. It's constantly evolving. The point that we're trying to get at, Griffin— again, I'll try to— I'll speak for you— but is you got to really kind of stop and plot all this out to make sure you've thought through those details fundamentally. Is that, is that safe? Is that a fair way to say it?

100%. It's, uh, you know, costly mistakes to be made. So yeah, yeah, you're best to get it right.

We won't call anybody out, but we've seen people burn a lot of money trying to do what's right here. So, all right, so let's go back. So what might you do next? I know what I have in my mind, you know, because now you've looked at that, you know the utilization, you've got what the infrastructure costs are, we know the nature of the assets that we're going to replace, we know the assets that we're going to replace. And I'm sort of leading the answer to the question that I'm thinking of. There's a key word in there, right? But fundamentally, it's about replacing assets, right? So what do you do next?

Yeah, I mean, next is really understanding kind of— well, it's almost creating that transition plan. You know, really, when are you going to be replacing these assets? Because that's going to have a big impact on everything. It'll let you plan out, okay, what are the costs going to be? Going forward? What is my CO2 going to be coming down to? And, you know, using the actual figures instead of, you know, just assuming everything's going straight down to zero. And really, you know, the cost of it all.

Right. Yeah. So I'm going to put words in your mouth here for a second. Okay. Just spell it out and Peter it out for our listeners. Essentially, I think what you're saying is You need to go back and I won't say necessarily redevelop your replacement plan, but you essentially need to take your replacement plan if you have one. If you didn't have one, you need one, right? And you need to essentially now look at, okay, if every time I was going to replace a vehicle with a conventionally fueled vehicle, oh, that's a candidate for an EV, so now I'm going to replace it with an EV, right? And then you sort of talk about some of the things you can then pull out of that. First and foremost is, How long is it going to take you to, you know, you know, what years are you going to reach which goals, let's say. All right. Which, how many EV assets you're replacing each year, etc. You might then tweak the replacement plan accordingly, right? Like, hey, we're not going to have the infrastructure built, so I'm going to replace these assets first that are not EVs and maybe push some of these EVs. You know, that's the kind of thing you might need to do within that. But a big result of that, I think, is the marginal cost change. We already got the infrastructure cost, but we're not done, folks. There's also the marginal cost of the EV assets versus the conventionally fueled assets. Right. And so, you know, and if I'm hearing you right, you kind of want to peter that out. And then again, you could look at the carbon emissions each year and see how that changes over time. Right.

Yep.

The big thing that folks, you know, is, is those medium duty and those heavy duty assets Again, we'll talk a little bit more about costs as we go here. But, but yeah, those marginal costs are, are something that you want to be aware of because typically there's going to be additional investment necessary. So for example, if you're a government listener and you use a reserve fund, there's probably going to need to be additions to that reserve fund somehow, whether that's increasing your chargeback costs, whether that's cash influxes to the reserve plan, whether that's pursuing debt financing, whether bond or traditional, you know, whatever, you know, bank loans. And so whatever it may be, you're going to need more cash even without the infrastructure costs. So, um, so that's coming down the pipe, right? Um, so why don't we just jump into that? When we'll go there here, we'll go around. What are the— what are some of the things that you've seen or some of the results that you see that are like, let's say, maybe relatively consistent amongst the various fleets you've done these kinds of analyses for? Have any of them surprised you? Have any of them kind of— maybe it's not surprising, you expected it, you know, that kind of thing. Or maybe, you know, that sort of thing. What commonalities or consistencies are you seeing, or generalities maybe you can give us that you see a lot out of after you do the kinds of analyses we've just been talking about?

Yes, I think one of the things that surprised me is actually like 90% of fleets, at least for those assets that are eligible for EV assets, you know, their utilization is within that range that, you know, a battery electric vehicle actually works out for them. You know, a lot of people, at least for emergency vehicles like cop cars and other emergency types of vehicles, you're going to want that PHEV. But really, you know, I was expecting a lot more assets to kind of fall into that range of, you know, really, you know, they're going too far, they're being utilized too much for the batteries, and so they need to go PHEV. But no, you know, battery electric vehicles, they've gotten high enough in their ranges that it works out for a lot of, a lot of the classes that we look at.

Right.

That's definitely one of the things that surprised me.

Let me pause you there. Quick tangent before you give me your next surprise.

Go for it.

What are some of the things you got to be careful of when you're calculating, when you're thinking about those ranges, right? So it's like those of us have been fleeting forever, right? We never— with all due respect to EPA, we love you, but we don't trust your miles per gallon ratings. We know, we know, we get, you know, you're doing that in a lab kind of environment. It's great, it's useful, it's helpful. We appreciate the work you do. But, but we're not going to necessarily assume that that's what we're going to see right on the assets that we're owning and operating. Right. So you know, how, how does that translate into the world of EV?

Yeah, at least for a lot of the studies that we've done, when we're checking eligibility, um, as far as range, is we, we don't consider the, the range that's marketed. Uh, we don't use that number. We'll take some percentage of that. Um, in our most conservative studies, we've taken 50%, so half of the range, and then tested whether the utilization meets that or goes past it. And then, you know, a little less conservative, maybe 75%, 80% of that range. Another big thing to think about is your weather. You know, if you're up north and you get a lot of snow, the cold does have a big impact on batteries. So that's definitely something to consider. And one of the reasons why you want to act on, you know, the more conservative size or side of the battery ranges.

Right, both range and charging time. The cold slows down charging time as well, right?

Uh, yep.

What other things impact range that, that, you know— and some of these, there's really great data folks out there, you can, you can go search it and you can get things right away, uh, as far as what those impacts are. And some of these, it's, it's, it's kind of one-off anecdotal, you know. There's still— there's not a lot of great public data anyway, so you might have to kind of track That's all the more reason for tracking your own data in the network, right? But what are some of the other things that impact range and/or charging speed? You mentioned cold. Are there some others that you've had to account for when you're doing these kinds of analysis?

Time.

Time.

You know, the battery capacity gets smaller over time in use.

Mm-hmm.

So really, you know, that's something you need to consider, you know, maybe 5 years, 7 years down the line, you know, is it still going to be able to do the job that you need it to do? Um, you know, so really that's, that's a big one too that a lot of people forget to think about.

Sure. Uh, there's also, uh, like use case going back again, keep coming back to this use case, but you know, that maximum range that you see marketed is typically for, you know, a single person who's average-sized vehicles empty, on flat terrain, on— right, so, so, so are you driving uphill all day? Uh, are you, are you elevated? If you're constantly full to, you know, a max capacity of cargo or people, that's going to reduce your range. So you do have to account for that when you're doing the kinds of calculations, um, you know, we were talking about earlier. All right, Griffin, let's get back to it. What are any other, any other things you want to add to your list of kind of commonalities or generalities that you can mention to us that you've seen for as results from most of the studies you've done so far?

Yeah, um, I think, you know, a question we've gotten a lot in the past is, okay, what's, you know, how many years is it going to take for us to get, uh, you know, return on our investment? And the answer to that was always, you're not going to get a return on investment. You know, we've looked 20 years out, 40 years out, and, uh, honestly, right now, the, the capital costs of the infrastructure and the vehicles themselves just far outweighs the savings from fuel and maintenance. So you really kind of have to go into this understanding, you know, if you want to transition to EV, you're spending money to achieve a goal of reducing emissions realistically. So that's something that, you know, I haven't seen a single case where there's a return on investment even 40 years out.

Right, right. You know, obviously things may change. Obviously technology may improve. Yeah, but when those are the kinds of results you're seeing, I think it's fairly safe to say that folks shouldn't expect any significant return on investment, you know, anytime soon. I think that's very real, realistic, right? Some of, let's say, the marketers and advertisers, and frankly, some of the folks who are out there doing these studies, they may, they have an agenda, or they have sort of a stake in the game, let's say. And so you'll see things like, you know, you're gonna reduce your maintenance and repair costs to zero, right? And stuff like that. And it's just, it's just simply not true. And, and again, we're fairly greenies, Griffin, right? I think we can kind of say that about each other. Um, we want to see, uh, we believe in caring for the environment. We want to see that. We just want to do it in a way that, you know, for our customers and our clients, that, that people are fully aware of it so that, so that you do it right. Because if you go in expecting Yeah, um, something that's completely off base, it's only going to stand in your way. It's only going to make it harder. Uh, so exactly, it's my experience anecdotally, um, that actually maintenance and repair costs go up before they go down. And that's simply because you, if you're an in-house shop, you got to get your mechanics trained, you got to get, uh, additional equipment that you need, additional tools and supplies, you know, that sort of a thing. Um, they do eventually go down Griffin, talk about some of the data you've seen. What are the kinds of M&R savings that in the data you've seen that people can generally expect and that sort of a thing?

Yeah. So really there isn't much data out there yet, but from a few of the studies I've seen, it's about 20% savings. So there are savings there, but it's not, you know, not 100% savings, right? You know, there's still definitely costs. Associated with the maintenance and the repair of EV vehicles.

And most of the data that is there, I think it's safe to say, is on, again, on those light-duty assets, right? Those specialty assets. Yes. I'm sure there are groups out there who have that data. You can certainly go to some data exchange websites and see if you can buy data from companies and that sort of a thing. But there ain't a whole heck of a lot of data out there yet for some of the larger assets. I'm sure it's coming. I actually expect it to— start to hit here soon in the next few years as those assets have been in the marketplace now for a little while. But we're really only light duties, really. I mean, we talk about even sedans are relatively new. The only thing that has any longevity to it are subcompact sedans as far as true longevity of maintenance and repair costs. Is that fair to say in what you've seen?

Definitely. Yeah.

All right. Last piece— actually, are there any other things you want to kind of point out that you've seen commonly? I think that's a really great point, to sway people's expectations of where they should be. You do calculate, by the way— we kind of skipped that— but you do calculate changes in fuel costs in addition to the carbon emissions. You can get a pretty darn good estimate of how much fuel you're going to save in fuel costs. You can also get a pretty darn good estimate on how much you're going to spend in charging costs. Uh, so, so, so that's certainly out there, uh, for people. Any other sort of like, um, maybe secondary or ancillary, or maybe complementary is the best word, of studies or projects or things that you might suggest folks do sort of in addition to, or almost whether it's like as a prerequisite or adjacent to this kind of effort, anything of that nature you would recommend?

Yeah, you know, really, you don't want to get into all of this stuff if you don't first know that your fleet is the right fleet going forward. You kind of want to right-size your fleet first and know that, you know, if you're going to make these big investments, that you're actually using the vehicles, right? So definitely taking a look and, you know, making sure you're not replacing unnecessary vehicles with EVs.

Yeah, I guess it makes a lot of sense, right? If you got 10 more trucks than you need, don't replace them with EVs and then go shout from the rooftops, look how great I am. Yeah. Yeah, good point. That's a good point.

And then on top of that, you know, finding the right— when you're making these transitions and you— if you're going to go through for the like Paul Luria replacement plan replacements, or transition, you know, finding the right group maybe to start with, because, you know, there's definitely going to be people in your organization who absolutely don't want to move, right?

Right.

And there's probably going to be some people in your organization who are, you know, gung-ho about it. So really find the right group that, you know, maybe has some hesitation but is willing to look at it so that they can be the spokesperson for your organization you know, and help others, you know, kind of adopt the transition.

That's a good point. That's a really good point. Not only be this both, but also essentially they're signing up to be guinea pigs, right, to help you kind of figure out what are going to be the— there's always going to be a challenge that you didn't anticipate, right? That's always going to be there. So what are those? And you want the right partner who's, who's going to kind of work through that with you, as opposed to throw their hands up and walk away the minute something doesn't go perfectly. So yeah, I think that's a really, really insightful thought, Griffin. Yeah, good point. All right, we're getting pretty late on time here. I know this will come up. Everyone's talking about it. We can kind of keep it high level, but, you know, obviously the world is struggling with supply chain issues. Even to this day, there's still this backlog. You know, it's the talk at every fleet conference. You know, good luck getting your EV kind of thing. Um, you know, uh, it's, it's true. I mean, if we're just being frank, they're just not producing as many yet. Um, and so that makes it much harder for them to get, makes it much harder to get a fleet incentive. So we're used to getting fleet incentive prices. That's pretty challenging. And if you're being fair to the OEMs, hey, if they can sell it for retail or above retail, why would they sell it to you for a discount? That kind of doesn't make sense. So, so you can appreciate and understand that. You know, I know I have heard some stories and rumors of folks finding a way to get fleet incentives and stuff. Usually it's when something's a little bit more like brand spanking new and they're being asked to help test it or something like that. But, you know, I welcome our listeners. If you have any recommendations for people, please do leave comments and let us know how to beat the supply chain issues that we have today as far as specifically to getting your hands on EVs. Don't get me wrong, you'll get 'em, but you might want to tweak your replacement plan to kind of account for the fact that it's gonna be harder to get them in the next couple of years. You know, you might want to replace 10 trucks this year. You might only get, I mean, people are having difficulty getting standard conventionally fueled trucks. So to get the EV, you might only get 1 or 2 or that, that kind of thing. So, so yeah, that's, that's something that we'll have to, that we encourage folks to help. So, I don't know, Griffin, any other thoughts, any things maybe we didn't cover that, you know, you want to point out there, any recommendations or insights or etc. to folks who are maybe about to embark on this process or maybe just started, you know, that sort of a thing in the midst of it, any other thoughts?

I mean, not really. I guess really the only thing is, you know, go through the motions of figuring out you know, this plan and really, you know, take the time to invest in, you know, planning it, right? You don't want to just dive in, right?

And get started, right? And know what you're going to get out of it. That's a good point, Griffin. Like, take the time, make the plan, and again, eyes wide open. What's that plan going to cost me? And what am I getting out of it? What am I— you know, how much carbon am I buying back, essentially? and so that you, you know, you can make an honest evaluation, uh, because I think that's important, you know, to getting it right. So, all right, well, Griffin, thank you so much for joining me. Hopefully our listeners are going to find this helpful. Uh, it's always a pleasure talking with you, my friend. Um, are you at Connect 2 this year?

Yes, I'll be at Connect.

Great, great. So looking forward to seeing you then. And, uh, yeah, if you guys have any questions, comments, We love to see that in the comments, whether you're listening on one of the podcast apps or on YouTube or wherever else it may be. We always try to be responsive and get topics up that you guys want, so we welcome your feedback. Yeah, hope to see you all soon and can't wait for the next conversation. Thanks a ton, Griffin. Have a great day.

You too. Bye everyone.

All right, bye-bye.