Episode 131: Is Culture Really Something Fleets Should Spend Time On

Welcome back for another episode of Fleet Success Show with your hosts, Josh Turley and Mark Canton.

Hey guys, how are you?

Good.

How are you?

Good. So it's been awesome having you come back from NTA last week. Glad to have you back in the office.

Thank you.

So it was interesting as you were, as you were presenting last week, you presented kind of the basics of fleet management, right? And I know we've kind of given presentations around the four pillars of fleet success before, and you incorporated that into your guys' presentation last week.

Right.

And as you were presenting, you mentioned, you know, as we were talking, kind of doing a recap on the conference, that you had some question around, hey, like, I'm going to deliver these, you know, these 4 pillars and how's culture going to land?

Right.

You know, it's, you know, something we talk about all the time. We definitely believe in it here.

Right.

But in the world of fleet, you never really can kind of know the reception you're going to get.

Exactly.

Right. And you mentioned, you know, what, what were some of the questions that you got as you talked about the 4 pillars of fleet success, but specifically, you know, the, the intentional culture piece?

Yeah. So we, we got a really, a bunch of really good questions. And one of the things that was interesting, and I, I kind of anticipated like losing people on the culture with the fleet, right? Like I said to you, and, uh, just because I think, I think a lot of fleet managers feel like their hands are tied, you know? Um, and so I got a question that kind of reflected that, which was, which was really interesting because, you know, we talk about resource efficiency as well. And so in one of those sessions, we talk about things like the juice worth the squeeze, right? Are you spending time on the things that you ought to be spending time on, you know, and to make sure you get a return on investment on that time well spent or not, right? And so we had talked about that earlier and we were talking about culture and the person said, well, you know, you're telling us we need to, you know, address the bad apples and get them out of here and make sure we get good culture fits in. Having that fight is to me not a good use of time, right? Because essentially they feel like it's a battle they can't win. Right. And which is just interesting because I think that that question probably, you know, like I said, reflected what a lot of fleet managers feel like.

It's probably in every industry, but that their hands are tied, that there's really not anything they can do with it.

Right.

There's no technicians available, so why even bother?

Correct.

Trying to, you know, filter on culture. Right, like just exactly take what you can get.

Bingo. Between the shortage of technicians, CBAs, right?

Yeah.

Um, sometimes not even CBAs, but like organizational rules, um, you know, for especially, to be frank, you know, some of our government colleagues feel that way. Um, and so, you know, a lot of folks kind of take the attitude of throwing your hands up, you know, and we have been pressing hard again on getting a good return on your time, but also things like the critical few, right? Choosing the top few things that are really going to make an impact. And so we got some pushback, uh, by, you know, and I was encouraged almost by it, um, uh, for a few reasons. Number one, I think a lot of people are thinking that, but number two, the amount of people in the audience who kind of jumped in and it, you know, it hit a tone with them. They understood how important the culture is because we were able to relate it and talk about some experiences that, you know, basically that folks commonly have in fleet. When you don't have a good culture fit, we know exactly what that looks like, especially when you got that bad apple mechanic who's just, you know, sowing divisiveness everywhere they go and all. And, you know, and so what we did was, is, you know, we did a few different things, but we talked through like the impact and we started to try to peter out in a mental exercise. Well, all right, well, how much time are you spending, you know, fixing the thing they didn't fix properly? How much time are you spending sitting down in the office trying to correct it? How much time are you, you know, and so forth and so on? How much time are you losing to documentation, to HR, to training, to— or have you just thrown your hands up and that person now gets, gets free will? They can just do whatever the heck they want whenever the heck they feel like it, you know? Is that what you're doing with the person? Well, no, we're not doing that. Well, why not? Why not? And it's, well, because then all technicians would do that. It wouldn't be fair as a Well, it's for the very same reason that you need to address the bad behaviors of the, of these folks. Like we always, you know, you know, talk about and how much more you'll get out of the rest of the team when, when they see it. So, you know, it was really kind of a word of encouragement to, to fleet managers out there of, yeah, we know that it's an uphill battle for some folks to really get into place the culture they want. And really I'm keying on one piece of the culture mission, let's say, in the sense of, you know, dealing with people who are not good culture fits.

That core value fits.

That core value fits, right. And essentially our message was, you know, there are days when you, yeah, you're going to want to bang your head against the wall, but, you know, of all the things to do with your time, it's probably the most important one, right? Because if you get the right people, as we always say, if you get the right people on board, you know, um, you're just going to be so much more successful at all of the other things that need to get done.

Yeah.

And, and it's so important, and it's hard. And, and I kind of wanted to bring it up to you. The reason I mentioned it to you is, you know, what are your thoughts and, and words on it? You're someone who's done it. You've done it in a corporate setting, right? And I, you know, I often try to think with you and kind of brainstorm, and Steve and whatnot, you know, where How do we help folks who are experiencing this, you know, boots on the ground in a shop somewhere or in an organization, you know, and just, you know, the worst thing you can do and the easiest thing to do and the worst thing you can do is throw your hands up and give up. Because if you give up, the fallout of that is the mission's lost. The mission's lost, right?

The mission's lost. Well, I think you hit it on the head, which is if you don't do this now, the foundation will never be set. And all these initiatives that you want to try to go implement, you'll effectively be pushing sand is the way I kind of—

Well said.

Right? Like, you're literally trying to push sand up a mountain and it just keeps falling back down. Well, why else? Because you keep getting undermined by bad apples, by people who don't want to adopt the change. They don't share the vision that you have for what the fleet can become. And you end up spending way more time and energy fighting, you know, what I'll call, internal political battles instead of focusing on the real enemy, which is waste and, you know, it's just waste, right? Time waste and money waste, right? Like that's real enemy of fleet.

Right.

And so because of that, you didn't focus on culture. You end up in this position where you're constantly having to manage the people and you're spending all of your time, you know, we talk about 80/20 rule. You're spending 80% of your time managing the 20% that are not effective. Versus 80% of your time working with the 20% who are amazing, right? We talk about throwing good money after bad, right? That's exactly what you're doing when you leave the bad apples. You're not really leaving them. You're just punting and you're having to focus on those day in, day out. And you just don't realize that's death by like 1,000 cuts instead of just one swell swoop.

Well, and that's exactly the point. You know, it was interesting. We had some folks share some of their stories. Steve, obviously, I mean, he's got a wealth of, of, you know, examples to use. And, you know, Tony and I shared some of ours. And what, as we thought about it as a group, it's fascinating, right? But if you try to avoid dealing with culture, then you end up just spending all of your time dealing with culture.

Deal with it. Choose your heart. It's like one way we say it, right? Choose your heart, right? It's going to be hard one way or the other, right?

You know, it's so true. And now it's all reactive and One of the things that was a common thread for folks is that mechanics will leave. Now we talk about you quit your boss and we talk about pay and we get that, and that's certainly true, but it's an interesting, um, character traits, let's say.

Yeah.

But you know, if you get a mechanic who's a real jerk, the other mechanics will leave. They will leave for less money. You could be the greatest boss in the world to them, but obviously you're not the greatest boss if you're allowing that to go.

That's the key, right? Because it's, you know, we always say that people quit bosses, not jobs.

Right.

And if you permeate or you allow a toxic culture to permeate, they'll leave that because you're not being a good boss and holding people accountable and doing, you know, having the hard conversations that only you can have. And in an essence, you might be a wonderful person, but they are quitting you.

Right.

Right. And it takes a big dose of humility to recognize that, that it really is you. And you might say, oh, I'm tied. My hands are tied. I can't get rid of this employee because they're union. And you know, like you've never tried to fire a government employee before. You got to jump through so many hoops to do it. And I get it. You think it's bad at government, you know, try firing somebody at a Fortune 500 company with, you know, a massive HR legal team that's a, you know, they're just as big a target of lawsuits as anybody.

Absolutely.

You still have to go through your hoops. Don't get me wrong, right? This isn't some shortcut. Oh yeah, you just like rip it off the mandate and be like, you're gone. I get that you have to go through your process, but if you refuse to go through the process, that's you permeating it. And instead of allowing you to say, "Nope, I'm going to start this process now. What do we need to do?" And working with whether it's your union reps, whether it's whoever, but helping them recognize that they have an interest in creating a great environment for their people too. They want people to be a member of the union. They want people to, you know, to be a part of this and they want to be seen as positive contributors of change, right? They want to protect the employee from the organization and they need to do that. They have a role to play. But there's an element where, you know, they have just as much invested in creating a good culture at your organization and all their organizations as anybody, right?

They have a brand to uphold.

They have a brand to uphold. And if they're seen as just being the obstacle, it'll never be, you know, it'll never work.

Right.

So you have to invite them in and have them be part of the solution.

Sure.

But they're going to be there to make sure you do it the right way. Right. There's no shortcuts here.

Right.

You know, and that's probably the part that people, they see and immediately that's it, back off. Oh my gosh, this is going to be too hard. Yeah, it is going to be hard. But guess what? Your manager, you know, like, grow up and embrace the challenge. If you don't want that challenge, step aside and let somebody else do it because I guarantee you there's somebody else in your organization who wants to do that job. Right, who wants to make the place a better place, right? Um, if you're not willing to do that, then you really shouldn't be a leader because that's your ultimate responsibility, is holding people accountable and holding the culture right up, right?

And to your point, right, you mean that's, that's some of the things we emphasize, like you owe it to the rest of the team, you owe it to all the people who are trying to be the good actors and participate in the culture, who are trying to do good for your community or your organization. You quite literally owe it to them to— you owe it to your employer, uh, to, to go chase that. And like you said, yes, there's hoops to jump.

Yeah.

And our message was, and they're worth jumping.

Yes, essentially. That's exactly it.

And if that means that someone else has to do the PM schedule that week or month or year, that's okay. That's why you're paid the big bucks, so to speak, right? Uh, go jump through those hoops, and, and in the long run, they're worth it. And yes, you may We totally acknowledge, I've seen them firsthand. I've lived it. I've experienced it. I have come across those HR officers or those union reps who you just feel like there is nothing I can say to this person that they're going to give me a reasonable response. And it's not really quid pro quo, right? And I get that. And you know what? You are going to run into that. And you still have to have the tenacity. A true leader, right, has tenacity. And they're going to say, Yep. I'm not letting you in on this because I know I'm right that this is a problem, right? If you have doubt that it's a problem, well, okay, well then maybe that's another conversation. But if you know that this person or this issue is a problem, then you owe it to everyone involved to not give up and have that tenacity and say, I'm winning this one way or the other. So, and so, you know, and then it kind of led to some tips, some tips that are pretty universal, right? Because we had a really mixed crowd. It was government folks. It was Fortune 500 companies, as you referenced. It was small mom-and-pop companies who are just growing into medium-sized companies who are starting to feel the pain of fleet management woes. And so it was a really great group. And, you know, we just kind of got into, you know, what are the things that you're always going to have to do regardless if you're union, if you're not union, if you have the greatest HR program or the worst HR program. And, and, you know, that kind of helped calm people down. And surprise, you'll hear it and you think to yourself, well, that was obvious. And yet sometimes it's, it's good to hear that stuff. Like, document everything, right? That's what we talk about all the time. Document everything. Write a note. Write a follow-up note. When you have a meeting, write notes on the meeting. Write a follow-up note saying, this is what our meeting was.

Yeah.

Uh, I mean, I cannot stress that enough. That's probably the number one most important thing that you have to do and remember to do. When you're dealing with a tough situation like that is.

And maybe you haven't documented everything up to this point.

Right.

One of the things I'll usually tell people is, okay, let's see, you've had a lot of verbal conversations. Document the fact that you had that verbal conversation.

Right.

In retro, right? And just the next time something happens, say, okay, I'm going to document this conversation and then I'm going to make reference to, as we discussed previously on December 13th, 2023, And we discussed again today just to again plant the seeds and document that we had a conversation both days.

Right, exactly.

And yeah, just the more you can do that. And I usually will be CCHR and make sure that we're logging all this into the employee file so that way when we do have to have, and every state's different and every union's different and every employee engagement ends up being a little different. Here in Arizona, it is a right-to-work state. But we still have to deal with unemployment claims and things like that. So we have to have documentation. We have to show that we made a good faith effort and not just some mail-it-in good faith effort.

Right.

Because most of the time the court is on the side of the employee, right? For better or worse. Most of the time it's for better.

Right.

But we have to make sure that we've done everything we can do in that situation to try to resurrect or what's the word, resuscitate. That relationship, you know, make sure that it's viable.

Right.

So yeah, you have to document everything, you know, just as a step one and start today. If you haven't done it yet, start right now. Start right now.

Exactly. And to your point, I mean, we encourage that too. I mean, when we say a good faith effort, we're being very, very literal about that. Even if it's tough for you to look at this person, right? You know, everyone, I think at least deserves some attempt at, hey, these are the issues we're having. We need, we need to see some improvement here. Here are some steps you can take to improve.

And I've been so surprised by people sometimes, you know, where I did not see them working out. I just looked at it and said, okay, we're going to go through this. And I don't really call it going through the motions, but I do like, I'm going to make one last try because I need to sleep with myself at night. Like I have to be able to rest assured that I did everything I could. And so I'm going to give this one last try. Right. And maybe this is, you know, the marriage counseling before the divorce kind of a thing. Right. You have to try.

Right.

Because they didn't prove to you that they just don't want to do this.

Right.

Right. And that's what you're looking for. But if you give it to them and you tell them what's expected and you lay it out for them and you have the hard conversation and you document everything and you give it that one last try, sometimes they surprise you and they will change because nobody's ever been that clear or direct with them. You could have a lasting impact on that individual's life.

That's right.

And I think as leaders, that's the piece that we're shirking from. We're not willing to have that hard conversation. You know, like, what's our motivation for being a leader, right? Because if it's not to bring out the best in everybody that works for us, we're in it for the wrong reason. Yeah, you know, we're in it for the perks instead of the, the mantle of responsibility that comes with that, right?

You know, and to your point, you might change their life for the better whether or not they stay on because you help them stay on or because you fired.

True story.

Uh, I, I can't stress that enough. I've had experiences that way. I've had people come back to me saying, Mark, you know, I know you didn't want to fire me. I know you felt like you had to. And I just want to tell you, it was the best thing you ever did for me. Right? Because it was a wake-up call for them and it made them realize, especially frankly, for folks that are earlier along in their career, to me it's like, if you're 25 or younger, go get fired. You know, kind of a thing, almost in the sense of you can learn so much from that.

Right.

And it forces people to your point, you know, so I don't know if you have any stories.

No. And I think, you know, and, and. Ideally, that's what you want to have happen is people come back to you and say, oh, I'm so glad you did that for me. It was the best move. Right. And I think as long as you feel that way, because I've definitely had people that have come back and said, oh, thank you for doing that. It absolutely was the right move to do. I have plenty of others though who still to this day won't talk to me because they carry a grudge or whatever. I know I made the right move. Right. And I'd make that move 5 times again if I get— we've given the same situation. Same set of situations, right?

You know, an interesting tie to this too, when we talk about documenting, is, you know, we, we, we regularly are telling, you know, anyone who will listen, tell your story with data, right? And so another tip that we gave them is, hey, do you have performance plans for folks? Do you have performance goals? There should be annual goals, right? I mean, we always talk about things like technician productivity and how many direct build hours, right? If there are some objective metrics that are straightforward, that are industry standard, that are organizational standard. I mean, that'll help you have those tough conversations with the HRs and with the union reps and so forth when it's, hey, everyone else is getting 1,400+ hours, 1,500+ hours, and I'm only getting 1,100. Well, they were on leave last year. Okay, well, what about 2 years? You know, that kind of a thing. So coming up with reasonable— and it's not— I'm not talking about— I want to be clear, I'm not implying that we should create unreasonable goals for people at all. I'm saying that the opposite. There should be goals and there should be measurable goals for all the folks on the team. And if you have them, now you have one more thing that is essentially documented, right? And built in and you can kind of say, hey, this person is hitting it or they're not. And to your point, if you do have to go to a performance improvement plan, there's a clear set of objectives of the things that we're going to determine together. Did you hit them or did you not? And you take a little bit of that personality out of it as much as you reasonably can. And to your point, take a lot of the politics out of it. Right. And that's so key with that. To me is one of the most important values of data is the elimination of politics of, you know, a lot of different directions. So, so that, that was also an interesting point and you can kind of see light bulbs going off in the audience and that's, that's kind of nice to know.

Well, I think by documenting it forces you to get clear. And I think half the time that's part of our problem is we have expectations up here, right? And we haven't communicated them clearly enough to the employee, right? What our expectations are, where they're falling short, and what we need, right? And so documentation kind of forces you to get really clear about what are the most important metrics, where are they falling short, right? Um, and I like to, you know, like if we do that verbally and then I follow up in writing, it gives me the opportunity to make sure, like, did I cover everything I needed to, right? And they're hearing it in multiple different ways, you know, because sometimes you'll talk to somebody and they just immediately shut you down, they tune you out, they don't hear the rest of the message, and then they get it in writing and it's like, oh, you know, like, yeah, I do remember you telling me that, right? Well, let's go refer to this email real quick. It forces you to get very clear about what the— what's expected and where they're falling short.

Yeah, that's a great point. And, and, you know, just to dovetail it a little bit, I think You know, we struggle. People don't generally— there are exceptions. There are some people in this world who love confrontation. Generally, I think they're the exception. Yeah. You know, and so to your point, we probably don't get clear enough most of the time because, you know, we don't want to hurt people's feelings and all of the other naturally human, you know, concerns. And, you know, to your point, part of this is an exercise in your own fortitude, right? It's like, hey, I need to do this. It's not easy. I don't like to do it. Nobody likes doing this stuff.

If your management was easy, everybody would do it.

Exactly. Um, but yeah, that's a, that's a really great point. Documenting it forces it to become— I feel like it becomes clearer for you, right? What it is exactly is, is the problem, you know?

Yeah.

So yeah, that's a great point.

And I'll say, if you're dealing with a, you know, like a union or something like that, like, that documentation helps there, but getting clear with them about the expectations and having that be a part of your CBA. Yeah.

Great point too.

It doesn't have to be just because it's not in the CBA today, it's never going to be there. Have that be a part of the bargaining chip is like, hey, we really want to create an amazing, you know, amazing culture and amazing place for our team, which includes the union. Can we have you guys agree to like, these are the core values that we live by?

Great point.

And include that in your CBA. You absolutely can do that kind of stuff. Yeah.

Right. That's a great point. And, and the, you know, at least the best fleet organizations I've ever come across, they have those kinds of relationships. And to your point, the CPA is a living, breathing document. It's not just set it and forget it, at least at the, the, you know, really effectual organizations. Right, right. And to your point, they're, they're using the kinds of issues that popped up and, and not only behavior issues, it could be a whole bunch of things like, hey, we've been, you know, Department X has started to ask us to do this and it wasn't originally there. The guy's been, you know, been doing it. Is it going to be a problem? You know, what do we need to do? Is that, is that out of expertise? But, you know, etc. By documenting all of that and building it up over time, you essentially have given yourself the outline for everything that needs to be discussed at the CBA instead of starting with, uh, what is it going to cost again, right? You have some meaningful, um, you know, building conversations instead of Pure negotiation, right?

Yeah. Well, and I love too this idea, you know, because we usually in a corporate setting, I would say include your team as you discover your core values, right? You're not creating core values out of thin air. You're talking about what's real today, what you want to preserve and what you want to get rid of, right? And if they're included in that, they can help drive the change from their side of the table to say, no, this is really what we want to do. And you help them get bought in because they see the value in it.

Right.

And then if you're both pushing from both sides, it just makes change that much easier.

Right.

Instead of having to go through a formal negotiation, get adopted, it becomes much more like, hey, we're all in agreement on this one. Let's, let's move forward. This can be, we can really create a magical environment. Right. And I don't use that word lightly. It really does create something that is a strategic advantage.

Right. And that's kind of the, that was Something we wanted to emphasize to folks too, and Steve did a really good job of this, you know, is, hey, we're— hey guys, this exists. There are worlds in which the union and management get along great.

Yeah.

And they have a beautiful relationship. And what's nice about that from a cultural perspective is this, with time it becomes sort of a really efficient self-fulfilling prophecy, right? Where the union itself and the guys themselves are so invested into the culture and into the organization that you almost don't have to worry about. I'm not going to say don't worry about it because you should always, right? Yeah, but you get where I'm going. It, it becomes easier to do, let's say, because the guys are, you know, they're not going to let— they'll tell you, oh, you're thinking about, you know, hiring so-and-so, we know him from— right? Those kinds of things you'll see.

Um, well, we've seen that here, right? Because, yeah, like, we'll bring in somebody, or, you know, like, the team is a part of the hiring process, and maybe somebody gets through the cracks But I don't have to do that. Like I don't have to, you know, watch it all the time because I know that the team has a vested interest in preserving the culture. They are going to drive that out just like a, you know, white blood cells on a virus in the body.

Right. Right.

And that's honestly, when you get the culture to be that embodied in your systems, that's what it feels like is a, it's an immune system against toxic behavior.

Right. So, well, I wanted to pick your brain on this part because this also came up. You know, Steve kind of talked about it a little bit and Tony did. And, but I think it's a fair question too, you know, um, depending on your organization in the fleet role, you may be, you know, C-suite potentially if you're at some major, let's say construction corporation or something like that. Yeah. And you're the VP of fleet management for, you know, but oftentimes you're, you're not quite that high up the ladder. Uh, you're somewhere in the middle. Um, And so there was some thinking around, you know, well, how do I manage this, right? I can't control the top-level culture the way the CEO can. And yet I have a responsibility to my team and to my stakeholders to create a culture. And so I have to create a subculture. Sometimes it's great because the top-level culture and it just feeds on down, no problem. And sometimes maybe it's not so great, or at least that's how we feel about it, you know? How do we do that? How do we, because we don't want you know, we don't want to completely insulate people, right? Because that's, in the long run, I think that's a tendency.

I know that's a tendency I had early in my career.

It was to, you know, I was going to create a great culture in my shop and I essentially insulated them from everything going on outside of us, right? And I just took the brunt of that. And, you know, that works for a while, but eventually it doesn't. You know, and yet, you know, so it's kind of like impact what you can, but I just was, you know, curious, do you have any thoughts around that? Like any tips or advice or how, how does one go about creating that subculture when they don't have complete control over, you know, the top level, let's say?

Yeah. So I think this comes to, you do have to start where you can, right? You can't change the entire company. You gotta start in the, the areas that you have more operational control over.

Right.

You work with your team, discover what those values are, discover what the mission is, right? And you do just kind of create this, like its own little silo, but you never stop trying to manage up. And you never stop, you know, because what's going to happen ideally is you're going to start performing and you're going to start delivering results and management's going to come to you and say, well, what are you doing?

What's the secret sauce?

What's the secret that you're doing? And your answer is going to be, Well, I've been really intentional about creating an amazing culture, right? That, and that's the foundation for any winning culture is starting with an intentional culture.

Right.

And then from there, you know, but the whole time you never stop talking about, oh, this is, you know, what we're doing today. This is how we're rewarding our employees. This is, you know, something amazing we've done. We've talked about 100 Best Fleets, you know, getting awards and recognitions helps with that.

Yeah.

You never really start managing. You never stop managing up. But you also don't spend a ton of time and energy going that direction if it's not being received well. Right. And frankly, as a manager, if I've got somebody working on a new initiative, I want to see them actually prove that it's working. Right. So deliver results, actually make an impact, make changes, show that this is working before you start preaching it. Right.

Right.

Walk the walk before you talk the talk.

Yeah. But it will permeate up. It will. I've seen it.

It'll permeate across too.

It'll permeate across too. That's a big one.

That will actually start driving more change than anything else is that the departments that you interact with will notice it and will ask you before your boss will ask you.

Right.

Your peers will start noticing it and it'll permeate across before it will start permeating up.

Right.

But don't get discouraged just because your boss isn't totally bought into creating an amazing culture. Right. What you need to have is, you know, you need to have some autonomy. You need to be able to make some of those decisions about who stays, who goes. And, you know, I would start building my own little leadership team underneath me. Maybe they don't get paid extra because I don't have any control on pay rates because for some reason, you know, my HR department will only ever look at other governments. But that's another podcast episode. You know, like, don't get too discouraged with that, but start building leadership. Include them in the decision-making process. Maybe they don't actually have decision-making ability or responsibility, but I consult with them and have them be involved in that as you discover, create, implement. And the vision is very simple. It's a purpose, it's values, and it's your mission. You don't have to have any buy-in from up top to get clear about that. And your people really depend on that clarity of knowing why they're there, how they're going to do it, and what they're working on right now, what's most important right now. Right. And so it's start where you are and let the results speak for themselves.

Right.

Somebody asked me that the other day. It was like, well, what do you attribute most of your success for? You know, and it's, yeah, we were doing a great job. You know, we're adjusting things in the product. We're creating a whole new product. We're investing in bringing on amazing talent. But you go back and the underlying answer to all of that, it all starts and ends with culture. It's the only way that we attract talent. It's the only way we retain talent. It's the only way we deliver the results that we're delivering. Is because we're willing to push each other and challenge the status quo because it's built into our culture.

Right.

Um, without the culture, we're nothing. And that's like, I will go to my grave preaching that. Um, so anybody who tells me, well, I can't do anything, I can't affect change, if it's like bullshit, you can absolutely do this. You have the ability, even if it's in your own little 5 dome, start where you can, right? Lift where you can. Um, and let the rest come, right? The results will follow if you truly commit to it and you invest in it.

Yeah, it's so true, you know. And, and I think that people get caught up with money, and don't get me wrong, I get it, it's important, we got kids to feed and all that jazz. But it's amazing what people will do, and money never even comes into play, you know. I remember hiring folks, and, you know, I, I didn't understand it, let's say— I don't know the right word— but intellectually, the way that, you know, that you've petered it out and I've kind of come on board here and understand and thinking about it in a very sort of direct and specific way. But I, I understood intuitively the importance of culture, uh, way back in the early days of my fleet, I think. And one of the things I used to say is, we're the kind of people who do what's right for what's right's sake, and we need no other reason.

Yeah.

And you just tell people that. Well, and my point is, it doesn't always need to be a raise or something like that, to your point about the leadership team, right? People, they want ownership, they want to be leaders, they want those opportunities to grow and improve. So if you're thinking about, well, if I make them a senior, or I do that, you're thinking way too far out ahead and you're, uh, you're kind of getting, you're falling into your own trap a little bit there, right? It doesn't, that's not what we're talking about here, right? Um, when we talk about creating a leadership team, you don't need to promote 6 people, uh, to assistant fleet manager, you know, that sort of a thing. right? So I think that's important for folks to hear too.

Yeah. So, uh, with that, I'm gonna say that was a, an awesome discussion. Sounds like you guys had a great time at NTEA.

Oh, it was wonderful. Yeah.

Um, love to hear that other people are, you know, embracing this idea of culture that, you know, you were totally run out of the room on that. Yeah. You know, there's only a couple of naysayers. We'll get 'em all. We'll get 'em all. Um, you know, but it is, it's something that I will, I truly believe that every great organization starts with a great culture, right? And some of these cultures are very intentionally toxic, but they're intentional about it, right? So, you know, if that's what you want to be, then that's what it is. Just know, you know, Jack Welch at GE did this, right? Ranking bottom 10% were always fired no matter how well they did, right? Um, I don't know, that feels kind of toxic, but it was— that was their culture, right? But they were intentional about it. They knew what they wanted. They attracted those people. They retained those people. And then they fired about 10%. So invest in it. Just take the time, invest in it, and you will reap the rewards. It takes patience. I've been at this 7 years since I really finally was pushing on this. And it wasn't really until the last 3 years, maybe 4, that I'd say we started seeing some progress.

Feeling it, right?

And then in the last year or 2, I would say it became it was a hockey stick kind of growth where it was like, ooh, okay, I'm feeling it now. Like we're really starting to cook. Our reputation's getting out there. It's changing. Our perception's changing. We're able to recruit some people that I never thought we'd be able to recruit. And now people are coming to us, right? Like it just changed the entire engine. But it was not overnight. And you know, it's a flywheel. You have to put some momentum into it and then it eventually starts self-sustaining. And then every little push takes less energy, but it gets going faster. And that's what building a culture is like.

Right.

So definitely worth it though. Worth the squeeze.

You'll see it in the performance results too.

Yeah, absolutely.

You will see it. You will see it.

Yeah. So, well, with that, as always, you know, recommend us to any friends you can think of who, you know, should be listening to the Fleet Success Show. If they are in fleet management, the answer is yes, they should be listening to the Fleet Success Show.

Amen.

Check us out if you want to get a copy of the book, fleetsuccessplaybook.com. You know, we wrote all this stuff. We give you the playbooks on how to implement a culture. This is not secret sauce. You know, somebody asked me that. I was like, well, what's your secret sauce? I'm like, it's not really a secret. It's just build a culture.

We tell everyone, right?

You know, that we, it's so secret that we tell everybody about it. Um, that reminds me of a meme. That's a different day. Uh, you know, we're gonna be doing a Fleet Success Summit again this year, but it's gonna be combined with our RTA Connect event. So it's gonna be even bigger and badder than it's ever been. You know, we're lining up speakers for that right now. So go check out our website for that. It's going to be in October in Atlanta. And so the week of October 7th, be looking forward for details for that. But otherwise, we will catch you guys on the flip side.

Take care, everybody.