Episode 166: Mandates, Mayhem, & Managing Fleets: Fleet Manager Challenges w/Mike Kastner from NTEA

This is the Fleet Success Show dedicated to helping you and your fleet succeed using the experience of fleet professionals and Hall of Fame fleet legends. The show that explores how the pillars of stakeholder satisfaction, intentional culture, resource efficiency, and risk management all combine to lead your fleet to success. We're glad you're here. Now let's get into the show.

All right.

Welcome back for another episode of the Fleet Success Show with your hosts, Josh Turley, Mark Canton.

Hey, Josh.

And joining us today from NTEA, Mike Kastner. How you doing today, Mike?

I am good.

Yeah, I'm doing pretty awesome. Hey, so, uh, just by way of introduction for those who don't know, Mark and I, I'm the CEO over here at RTA Fleet. I've been here, been serving fleets for over 20 years, uh, focused on fleet management information systems and leadership for my side of things. Uh, Mark, you had a background— you want to tell a little bit about some of the fleets you've run and some of your consulting experience?

Sure. Yeah, I've been in fleet for almost 30 years now, uh, mostly in the university setting, like most folks in the fleet world. I fell in from an adjacent industry, the transportation industry, uh, and then got into consulting, you know, I don't know, 8 years ago or something like that, more than that, 10 years ago now. Wow, time flies. And, um, yeah, just, uh, started learning as much as I could about every industry and segment. Um, was always kind of had a thing for data, so I got to support a lot of verticals— federal government, you know, state government, local governments, and obviously corporate fleets and and learn a lot and try to help others improve themselves. And I had a passion to do software. I felt like there was something that we needed in the industry. You had a very well-aligned vision for what you're doing. And next thing I know, I met you and somehow landed here. So now we're working on trying to make the, you know, help Fleet succeed ultimately. Right.

Did you have a podcast host in your bingo card for fleet management professional?

I did not. But now that I'm doing this, I'm kind of enjoying it and I'm fighting any effort to kick me out. So you better keep me around.

Well, and Mike, so I know, you know, a lot of people are likely familiar with NTA, specifically Work Truck Week as one of the premier events for, you know, fleet management professionals and equipment professionals. For our listeners who haven't met you yet or don't know much about NTA, can you give us a quick intro about, you know, who you are, what NTA is, and what you do at NTA?

NTA, the Work Truck Association, represents, give or take, 2,200 companies, primarily in the US, North America. We represent the manufacturers and distributors and users of vocational trucks, work trucks. So dump trucks, tow trucks, snow plows, ambulances, on and on and on, Digger Derek. I think what I usually say, and I'll get into this because I'm lobbyist for the NTA, you know, in Congress, my quick way of explaining it is sort of, sort of every truck other than an 18-wheeler tractor trailer. I mean, not entirely correct, but pretty close. As I said, I'm the NTA's lobbyist here in Washington. I'm senior vice president of NTA. So the engineering folks also report to me. We have an office in Ottawa in Canada that reports to me, and I'm here in Washington, D.C., whereas NTA is headquartered in suburban Detroit. So we've got people kind of all over. And I do— I primarily— I started at NTA actually in December of 1988, and I remember that because George W. Bush, the elder, had just been elected. And like within 2 or 3 weeks of my move there was his inauguration. I didn't know anything about that at the time. I just went to work. I mean, it's a block away from the White House, but I just drove to work because it was a workday and the office was closed, people were in the city. So it was a very different experience and quite a strange awakening for me. In DC, never having been there before. But I knew cars and trucks because I'd worked for MVMA, which is the Motor Vehicle Manufacturers Association in Detroit, which is where I started out of school. And then I worked for Lear-Siegler, an automotive supplier for a while, then was hired to open MTA's Washington office. So that's kind of how I got there. And things evolved over the years and now I've kind of got my hands in all kinds of association stuff, but primarily it's the government relations things that I do, which this year is keeping me busy.

So as you said, you've got, you know, NTA really focuses everything up to your 18-wheelers and everything in between. So I mean, that's a, that's a very broad range of equipment. And obviously in the news lately has been all about electrification. Right. And we've seen a lot of electrification at the sedan level, you know, the passenger level. But what's interesting from a work truck level, right, even going up to, you know, bucket trucks, Class 6, Class 7, some of the heavier duty, you know, not 18-wheelers, but definitely in some of the, you know, vac trucks, things like that that we see in a municipal type fleet. Electrification definitely has seen some of its challenges in these larger, heavier duty applications. From NTA's perspective, how are you guys approaching this? What's, you know, what's kind of your take on electrification in the work truck world?

Yeah, no, great question. No surprise, there are challenges. You know, we look at electrification in the light duty segment and in the right applications, great technology works really well. NTA is an organization, you know, it's kind of fuel and technology agnostic. If it works, it works. So our mantra, generally speaking, on fuel and technology has been, you know, is it available? Is it capable? And is it relatively affordable, looking at kind of lifetime total cost? And, you know, on the light-duty side, for the right applications, EVs make great sense. It's more of a challenge the heavier you get, obviously. Our concern is that if you've got mandates forcing EVs, does that mandate align time-wise with the technology? And, and I mean, not as much our issue, but for the fleets, does the fueling capability, the recharging capability, is that in existence? So You know, we look at the larger vehicles as much bigger challenges for electrification, which is why even on the mandate side, they tend to have a little bit longer leadway, you know, timeframe. But this comes back to— and I think a lot of us in the industry agree that the idea of the government choosing sort of winners and losers is not a great way to go. In our experience with NHTSA at DOT, you know, they have worked pretty hard to have performance-based standards as opposed to design-based standards. And what we're seeing with the clean air and the EV stuff is it's really has become a de facto design standard as opposed to performance standards. So, that's just not working well as we've seen. It's not to say that EVs might not be a great technology even at Class 8 someday, but it just doesn't seem we're really even all that close to it today.

Yeah, and I think that's been our mindset as well, is that it's going there and it will be there, you know, just setting an arbitrary timeline. And I would say like we actually deal this with software development too. We're running into this all the time, right? Is, you know, is something time-bound or is it quality-bound? You know, do you, do you ship something when it's ready and it's been thoroughly vetted and it's been quality built, or do you ship it just because it's time to ship it and it's like not really ready, but hey, let's go for it. And who pays the price for that? You know, in a software world, it's the consumers. And in a fleet world, right, it's the fleets. And ultimately in a municipal setting, it's the public. Yes, it's the general public, right? And it is consumers too, because it's a consumer mandate as well. You know, it affects everybody.

Yeah. And as evidence to Mike's point, and we've talked about this, right, at some point along the line, the mandates and the goals changed from being about carbon emissions to being about counting how many EVs you have. And the minute that happens, that's where it's fair, right? It's a design thing now. It's not a performance thing, right? And you can debate all you want. We're not going to debate here about carbon emissions and, you know, the air impact and all that stuff. A lot of people a lot smarter than me. Can, can talk about that. But at least there was this concept that carbon is hurting us in some way, shape, or form. There's a price to be paid for that. Let's do something about that. Right. And one of the things we talk a lot about is there's a lot of ways to address that. EVs is certainly one of them. It's, and it's a great tool, right? In many cases. But if it doesn't match your use case, then is it, is it the best tool? And hey, why not pursue things, um, You know, I think there's an unintended, there's many unintended consequences in this arena, but one of the ones that comes up is, no, I have to have a BEV, for example, so I'm not interested in a hybrid, or I'm not interested in maybe running biodiesel. And so I've lost an opportunity at addressing the better performance because a design decision was made for me, right? So I think that's a fair insight, Mike.

I think that's a great point, Mark. I mean, when you create a design standard as opposed to performance, you take out all the great innovation and technology that made us who we are. You know, it's the market that has said in the past, traditionally has said, hey, we need this to accomplish our jobs. And then the work truck industry went to the drawing board and said, okay, let's create that. But they created it with a blank slate. It's not, okay, now we have to create this as an EV, as a BEV. You know, to your point on hybrids and stuff, I think it was a huge missed opportunity not to embrace hybrids as a bridge to the future. Um, you know, we had, um, at the Work Truck Show, gosh, probably 10 years ago or so, we had Steven Chu, who was the Secretary of Energy there under the Obama administration. And his point, and it's still valid today, there's not going to be a silver bullet that solves these problems. It's going to be a combination of things. And in CPOD, it's one from column A, one from column B, one from column C. And then you add those up and you actually get somewhere. This idea that one technology is going to solve all of our problems, I just don't think it's the greatest way to go. I think if you let the market the buyers, the users of the vehicles, tell the manufacturers of the vehicles what they need to do their jobs, then those manufacturers will work with them and create the technologies they need. Um, I mean, that's maybe a simplistic view of things, but I think it works. Historically, that has worked better than anyone, whether it's government or anyone else, choosing who wins and who loses.

And what specifically had to be the mandate? Yeah, I think that you hit on something, which is it's this plethora, right? There's, you know, and there's probably a balance between the two, right? I like the idea of a time mandate because it sets a deadline, it puts urgency in place. If you only let quality, it will never ship. Like, nothing will ever happen. However, right, having an arbitrary time-based deadline that's not, you know, rooted in fact or rooted in common sense, and you say it's simplistic, But I think it's common sense, you know, it's, it's a common sense approach instead of an overly simplistic one. But it's how do we get there in a reasonable way that makes sense.

It sort of started that way, you know, if you go back in time ways, CAFE was really the original emissions control. The idea was if you burn more gas, you're using more emissions, and if you could create a system where they had to be more fuel efficient, you'd burn less fuel and emissions would be better. So as long as everybody was using diesel or gas, gas primarily because this is light duty, it made sense and it worked. Well, when you start bringing in EVs, then that changes the equation. And then at the same time, again, back, gosh, I don't know, maybe 10 years, EPA made the determination that emissions were a public health issue, which then gave them the authority to start regulating them. And that's when we started shifting away from NHTSA CAFE as the primary emissions driver to EPA. And it became much more complicated then.

Right.

But even then, from an air quality standpoint, there's still a The goal is still the same, right, is reducing those emissions, you know. And so the mission should still be the same no matter who's running it. But the question is, is why, why did we do that, you know? And that's, I think, a different question that you have to peel back some layers on. Um, so obviously you're, you're in DC. We've just gone through this, you know, this transition obviously from the Biden administration. Uh, you went, you know, and it's been just crazy time. You went from Obama to Trump to Biden to Trump again. You've seen a lot of change in the years. You mentioned George H.W. Bush from when you first started, obviously going through the Clinton era, Bush 43, and then now. What do you— what's been one of the fun constants for you as you've gone from these different administrations, their different political strategies and priorities?

Yeah, I'm not sure how many constants there are other than the White House is still at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. You know, I think one of the constants has been that whether you agree or disagree with how things are being done, really Washington is filled with people who care about what they're doing and are trying to do the best in the way they feel is best. Um, and so I always try and give a little, you know, even when I'm talking with somebody who I disagree with their conclusions I do try and put it in that way and give them some grace that they're trying to do the right thing. I just need to help them do it the right way. Um, and so I think that's been the constant. Now, the, the change certainly has been the partisan, you know, way of dealing with things. I came in sort of right at the end of that era where the differences between the two parties weren't so great, and they actually knew each other pretty well. And there's some comedy there, and it was a better way, I thought, of doing things. And then things started splitting. And so, you know, you're dealing with a lot of politicians and a lot of agencies, Congress, that they don't have so many people in the middle anymore. They've got people on one end or the other. And that sort of common sense approach in the middle has, I think, taken a bit of a hit.

Exactly.

I like to, uh, I like to blame cable news.

Yes, me too.

I mean, people say the 24-hour news cycle has a lot to do with that, but I, I was watching something on it.

It was about, you know, the '90s, uh, the '90s, you know, the decade that made us essentially, and talking about the money that was allowed to come into the news stations and the, you know, just before Clinton took took office or just after. And it was essentially, right, started with News Corp taking over Fox News and then MSNBC and then CNN and all those kind of followed suit. But the cable news, you know, the advent of cable and then cable news networks themselves completely changed the game as far as what happened with polarization. That's kind of the moment they say you can actually see that divide. If you lined them up, that's almost the common denomination between the two.

Interesting. It's funny you say that. I have a friend who used to be a talking head that they'd call in on occasion, Republican, but very moderate. And I talked to him a few years ago. He said, oh yeah, they stopped calling me because I was too moderate.

Interesting.

They wanted, you know, they need the takes, they need the impressions, right?

To go viral. Every post has to, you know, has to get it. Well, because why? Well, it's because we need to sell advertisements, right? Right. This, you know, we talk about Google all the time, same thing, like their whole business model is selling advertisements, and so everything's become commoditized based on ads.

Yeah, so I mean, the world obviously in the last 30, 40 years has changed, you know, good and bad.

No.

So then how do you handle that, right? You know, like the one constant has just been change. From an NTA perspective and working in DC, uh, how do you do that? How do you bridge the gap from administration to administration, changing political winds, increased polarization?

Going into this kind of work you understand that that's going to happen every either 2 or 4 years, probably. Yeah, that whatever relationships you develop in Congress sooner or later are going to go away. And the administration, love them or not, sooner or later they're going to go away too. So you're obviously preparing for that from the very start because you know it's going to happen. Now, I will say the change in November's elections from Biden to Trump is probably the biggest switch. 180. Yeah, 100% 180. Right. Absolutely. And I guess for us, a lot of the changes we view as likely to be positive, a lot of them, not necessarily all. And had we continued on the path we were on before, it would have just been more challenges. I mean, we'd all survive, we'd make it through somehow. But I think, I hope this administration will give us the opportunity to be a little more who we are as an industry, doing what we do best and letting us do what we do best. And, you know, I mean, when I say we, I mean, the whole from manufacturing to distribution to use. A little more freedom, I think, will give this industry a lot of leeway to do good things and ultimately we'll get to where we need to be. But I think we'll do it more efficiently left to our own devices.

Let's, you know, we'll kind of shift topics here a little bit because I'm going to come back to D.C. here in a bit. But let's come back to NTEA. From a work truck standpoint, what are some of the big challenges? Let's take EV off the table. We already know that one's a massive one. What are some of the other challenges that you're seeing for your members, for, you know, people that are in the industry doing what they do? Like you said, from supply to manufacturing to use.

Yeah, well, you know, supply is a great word. I mean, supply chains, huge challenges, obviously started, you know, with COVID And in some ways, I don't know, maybe the lessons we learned on supply chain through COVID will be helpful as we proceed to looking at tariffs, things like that. So, supply chain has clearly been a big issue for people the last 5 years plus. Let's face it, inflation, I mean, it hits all of us. I, uh, I made the mistake to go to the grocery store and buy a dozen eggs last weekend.

And did you bring your gold bars with you when you did that?

Well, exactly. And the funny thing is, we've been doing a kitchen remodel, so I hadn't been doing anything for like 6 months. So it really was sticker shock. I mean, I got there, I was like, oh my gosh. Well, imagine if you're, say, a manufacturer, and everything that you put into that truck, you're seeing, you know, 3 or 4 or 5 years of 5, 6, 7, 8% inflation. And then you've got to try and sell it to a customer who needs to buy it and has to find the money to buy it. So I think those are, you know, it's just the economy. I think that's the biggest challenge, you know, specifically in the work truck industry. I guess like a lot of other industries, we're seeing a lot of consolidation. So, you know, bigger companies, efficiencies of scale, you hope. Yeah. So I don't see that that necessarily is a challenge, but something that's happening. But yeah, I think just the economy as a whole, labor, trying to get skilled employees, really tough. You know, NTA has a program on— it's sort of a train the trainer welding program. That we do, um, because, you know, try and find a good welder, not easy, and there's a lot of competition for them.

They're almost extinct, Mike.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I gotta tell you, I've got a, I've got a son in college. You know, if he had not expressed an interest in college, I would have told him, yeah, learn how to become a welder, right?

I've got a brother who's doing that, actually.

Is that right?

Yeah, he's going to school for electrical engineering, but His side hobby is welding and he's making a lot of money doing it.

Good for him.

Yeah.

That's awesome.

Yeah. So those vocational trades, I think that's another thing we kind of missed on the government sort of convincing everyone that college was the way to go. And for sure it is for a lot of people, but it isn't for a lot of people. And if we could provide really good vocational training, like they have in other parts of the world, apprenticeships and things like that, I, I think we'd be doing ourselves a favor.

It's almost like you just said the same problem we're facing with EVs, right, as we're trying to, you know, mandate the solution. We almost did the same thing for the college education, right? We rooted out a really critical part of our labor supply chain, uh, by getting rid of vocational schools or deemphasizing them, uh, from a financial aid standpoint even, right? Not putting that in there the way it is. I've got a whole host of opinions on the whole financial aid, like unlimited free money for schools and why college is so crazy unaffordable right now, but And it ties back, it's the same problem we're having with the EVs, right? It's the same issue.

So, well, there is, you know, there's a small— I mean, we're not particularly involved, but I know there is some legislation floating around about changing for our 529 college savings plans to be able to use those for vocational.

Oh, that's great.

Yeah, that would be awesome.

Yeah.

Are there other things from, uh, that you guys are doing, you know, as you mentioned, lobbying? To kind of help with some of those challenges, right? Either education, you know, staffing shortages, supply chain issues. What are some of the initiatives that you guys are running up on Capitol Hill to try to help the industry on that front?

So a lot of those issues, a lot of other groups share. And so, you know, you do coalition work and we're, you know, always have to do that on those things. You know, some more specific things, catalytic converter theft. You know, it's still an issue. It's an easy thing to steal. Not giving anybody any ideas, but it's still a problem. You know, could be dealt with on the federal level with parts marking, things like that. So, I mean, that's something we're working on and looking at. And the other one, you know, gosh, this is our perennial issue, but it's still hugely important, is the federal excise tax on heavy-duty trucks. You've got a 12% ad valorem tax on effectively Class 8s. It's a little more complicated than that. But that's also applied to EVs. So if you've got an EV that's already more expensive— EV truck, heavy truck— and it's subject to FET, now you're adding another 12% onto that. So it's just financially not viable. So we continue to look at how to address FET. I think one of the opportunities actually presented by EVs, because EVs don't pay highway funding the way diesel or gas does, you know, again, our highway funding has always been primarily based on fuel tax. There's some other ones, but primarily fuel, and EVs don't. I mean, that's the benefit of EVs. They don't— they're not gassing up every day, so they're not paying into the Highway Trust Fund. So that's something they're now starting to look at. And so again, talking about that 180-degree flip between the administrations, you had one administration pushing EVs, pushing EV incentives, big incentives. Now you've got another one trying to unwind those incentives, unwind those requirements for the EVs. And it's a lot to try to assimilate. Again, going back to the fleet side, if you're a fleet manager, I don't know how you do it. I mean, that has got to be one of the toughest jobs today simply because You're either given conflicting information, lack of information, or decisions that are flipping. And you're supposed to try and make 10- and 20-year decisions. I don't envy it.

Yeah, especially in the public sector, right? Like if you're dealing with your own administration changes, a mayor gets changed out, the city council gets changed out, the governor gets changed out, that's happening at a different cycle than even the presidential and House elections. That's a whole nother ball of wax that you got to, you know, the local politics, like they say, all politics are local and you got to deal with that change as well.

Yeah.

So it definitely, it adds, it's very difficult when you're talking about inconsistencies and shifting priorities and your best skill is learning how to navigate those winds, right? Like learning how to navigate and be flexible.

Right. And, you know, we at NTA strive to provide the best and most current information so that you can try and make those decisions, but they change. And as we're seeing, can change dramatically and fast.

Who was it that said— was it Patton said, or maybe it was Eisenhower— says no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy, right?

Yes.

I like Tyson a lot better too, which was, uh, everybody's got a plan till they get punched in the face, right? But I think fleet managers, like, that's us really. We've got to have that kind of a mentality, which is you know, the benefit of planning isn't the plan. The plan is garbage, you know, it's, it's obsolete as soon as you make it. But the benefit comes in having a plan and going through the planning process so you can adjust and you know which parts of the plan are going to need to be tweaked based on new variables that come into the equation.

It exposes you to all of the various elements that you're going to have to solve, all the problems essentially you're going to have to solve and think about. And that's, you know, again, a lot of these unintended consequences, right? You know, Mike, You're talking about the, you know, the Work Truck Show. Like, I go— I've gone there every year since '18. I love the, the show. And, you know, hey, you could be building something, let's say, on a 2-ton truck today. You're forced into replacing that with an EV. Now that thing weighs a whole heck of a lot more, which shifts its class, which, you know— and now with the, you know, now you got to build something that needs outriggers on it, and you got to go a whole nother level up. And, you know, it, it's— you, you gotta have so much detail, right? And so much specification in there. And then that's just, that's just one of like 100 unintended consequences we can talk about, right? We have folks not being able to get the diesel trucks they need because, you know, the, the vendor won't sell it to them because again, it's now about counting vehicles instead of emissions. So no, I can't sell you that one unless you buy an EV too. We have a customer who actually had that told to.

There's a huge challenge right now is the availability because with, with all of these changes and, you know, particularly the CARB stuff, um, OEMs don't necessarily know exactly what they need to do in every case, particularly when you go out to the other, uh, you know, the Section 177 states. I think there are, what, 9 or 10 of them that adopted the CARB stuff. But the problem was CARB knew you know, went in eyes open and decided what they're going to do. These other states sort of agreed to accept that, but they can't change it. That's part of the waiver process. You know, another state can't change the CARB waiver process, but those other states didn't necessarily recognize they needed administrative infrastructure to handle these rules so that the OEMs would know what they could sell, what they couldn't. And I think a lot of it, when it came up like this January, the states just weren't ready for it and didn't know they weren't ready for it until in a lot of cases the OEM said, okay, where do we— who do we tell what we're selling? And the state's kind of like, uh, Oh, I don't know. So the OEMs are in a tough spot on selling. And that's sort of what they're there to do is build trucks and sell them. So they want to sell them. They just need to be told now how they can and what they can sell. And so that goes, again, with the flip in the administration and the waivers, the one waiver being withdrawn, the other ones are likely to go under the Congressional Review Act, which We can talk about it if you want. But again, going back to the sleep management, I don't know what you do right now. I'm not sure what you do.

I don't know either. I think my advice has usually been just keep going, right? Just eat your day, whatever's the rule today, you just keep going until somebody tells you otherwise, right? And while we figure all this stuff out, then the course of action, just stay on the current course.

I think you're right. And who knows how long the current course stays.

30 days, maybe.

Yeah, exactly. Depends.

Especially the way that Trump and Musk are moving right now. They are moving things quickly.

They're moving fast.

Which brings me back to some of the other things that we're dealing with. You had offices obviously in Ottawa and in DC. Let's talk tariffs. What are the impacts from a tariff standpoint? From NTA, what your viewpoint is there, then obviously you've got people on both sides of this. Getting affected by it.

But again, for that reason, we don't have an official position pro/con on tariffs necessarily. Um, we do have a significant number of Canadian members obviously who are concerned. You know, you've got the— trying to remember all the different ones— so you've got the Canada-Mexico-China tariff, which was the immigration and fentanyl one. That was for Mexico and Canada delayed to March 4th, right in the middle of Work Truck Week. So, you know, who knows what we'll have to say there.

I know what everybody's gonna be talking about, right?

It's gonna be talked about.

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So you've got those, then you've got the new steel and aluminum, 25% each. There are existing 25% steel, 10% aluminum, but there are enormous exclusions, both country-based and product-based. And so those would be wiped away and it goes straight to 25% and 25% on steel and aluminum. Now, if you're Canada, March 5th, and you go to 25% because of the immigration fentanyl tariff, for, you know, whether that's fair or not, and then I think it's maybe April is when the steel aluminum ones would go. And theoretically, they're stackable. So if it was Canadian steel going into the US, theoretically, that would be a 50% tariff. Oof. Wow. Now talk about challenges. If that's where your steel was coming from, you got a lot of things to think about in the next month or two.

Now talk about supply chain and impact there. If you were sourcing from there, now you've got to switch to a US-based supplier, right? Or some other, you know, country that's not getting hit with a double hit. Um, but even then, if you're switching to a US-based supplier, there probably was a reason you were using the Canadian one in the first place, and it was likely cost. Uh, so what's the difference? You know, now you've got to budget for that and plan for that. So there's going to be a supply chain hit.

The argument, particularly in the Canadian question is that, you know, the argument is that people say China dumps a lot of steel into Canada that then sells it into the U.S. I mean, that's the theory behind this, um, you know, and with it being stackable, you know, Trump has floated the idea of 25% worldwide tariff just overall, and so I guess Canada wouldn't be any worse off at that point. But, you know, the steel and aluminum tariffs, they were Section 232 tariffs, which were national security-based ones. So the idea being you want a robust steel and aluminum industry within your borders for national security reasons. And so, you know, you pull the levers to make the costs work out so that steel and aluminum can be produced again in the US.

But then that makes sure— you got to make sure then the manufacturing is ready for that, assuming that, you know, Canada doesn't do something. And I don't see Trudeau and Trump working very well together, you know, just call it my crystal ball.

But for better or worse, Trudeau is not going to be there. He won't be there much longer, right? But until then, you know, and, and the, you know, the candidate that's likely, um, from Quebec is, you know, more conservative than Trudeau. But, you know, I don't know if he and Trump will get along.

It's so funny you say that. I watched them both and there's a part of me that thinks they could be best friends, and then there's another part of me that thinks these guys could hate each other, you know, too much, you know, ego.

Ego always gets in the way, banging heads.

Could totally see it on the head there, Mark. I don't disagree.

I don't know how that's going to work out, but it'll be interesting to see the impact on U.S. manufacturing, right? If this holds, then how quickly can U.S. manufacturing catch up? 'Cause it's just like oil, right? We'll shut down oil production because it's cheaper from overseas. And then all of a sudden it gets more expensive and it takes us some time to get ramped back up.

Right. 'Cause we're not ready for it.

Yeah.

It's not like we've got a strategic reserve of steel like we do with oil. We can just flood the market real quick. So that'll be very, very interesting to see how that impacts overall inflation and everything else.

Yeah. I think steel and aluminum in particular, that's production you can't just turn on and off real quickly. You know, if you're manufacturing widgets or something, who knows? But yeah, there's going to be some lag time there in getting that up and running if it works out economically.

Mike, I want to go back a step if I could, and just point of clarification for me. And, you know, you talked about it at the top, kind of who NTEA is and who you represent. And maybe you could just peter that out a little bit more for me, right? We've talked a lot about the OEMs. So the OEMs, for those listening who maybe don't know, obviously it means Ford and Chevy and folks like that. I would imagine they're members of the NTEA, but other truck and auto manufacturers. Is that essentially correct? Are you also involved with sort of the aftermarket upfitters, is the way I'll call them, the folks like Altec, for example, who are building our cranes and all that?

That's really our core membership. Um, this is like— this is very difficult for me when I first moved to Washington because at the time, even more so than today, NTA had manufacturer members and distributor members. The, the problem I had in Washington was our manufacturer members, by definition, were actually the companies that manufactured the bodies and equipment. The OEMs manufactured the chassis. And they were members, but they're actually associate members because they're a supplier to the industry, the work truck and body industry. And so you would have the distributor was actually the distributor of the body manufacturer. You know, they're the one that sold it to the customer, and as part of their distributor role, they installed it on the chassis. Now this is where it becomes complicated for me in Washington. By doing that, they become the final stage manufacturer of that truck for legal purpose, you know, for federal certification purposes. So I'm going to NHTSA and saying, talking about manufacturers and distributors, to them manufacturer was an OEM and distributor was a dealer selling the car. We're like, no, no, no, completely different. And so that was, you know, just the terminology was a bit of a difficulty, but that's really our core membership is those main body and equipment manufacturers and their distributors. And then the OEMs would be suppliers and fleets are users, you know, so we embrace everyone. And work with everyone. But to your point, our core membership really is that truck body and equipment area, which for vocational trucks is what sets them aside from, you know, a car. It's what goes on that chassis.

And so the nice overlap here is this is where fleet managers live, right? It's really— it's about managing these, these work trucks. And you mentioned— and so now we think about it in terms of so supply chain and all that, right? These In fairness, some of these are large companies, Mike, but they're not in many cases global companies that have the buying power. So we're talking not only increased price, but potentially you're unable to get your build or you have to take a different build or, you know, something like that, right?

Yeah. I mean, look, you know, I think we've all heard the stories on chassis availability, particularly vis-à-vis the EV, you know, clean air California issues, you know, can you actually get an ICE chassis to build on? You know, you've got a customer who's got a checkbook, they're ready to go, and you call up all your dealer network and like, yeah, we got nothing to give you right now. I mean, that's, that's a huge problem. And, you know, I get it from the OEM point of view. What is it you're supposed to be building today? Where is it you're supposed to be selling that particular powered chassis? So there's a lot of complexity in that distribution to the end user that never existed before. So here's what I—

something that this is Oh, it's related in my brain, but it's probably totally off topic. You know, I remember, um, years ago it was like, man, at every show, certainly at your show, there's another what felt like a mom-and-pop vendor, right? Some with some great new design, with some great new idea that they were going to build on the trucks. Um, and it felt like then it was easier to enter, less barriers to enter than maybe there are now. Josh asked you about what are some of the other issues. Do you see that as an issue right now? Do you feel it's pretty much the same? I mean, it feels like some of those smaller groups and even medium groups get gobbled up, and that's okay if it's for good reasons. I get concerned when it's by one of the major auto manufacturers who I think you get someone you know, comes up with this brilliant design. They build on their chassis, they become certified for that manufacturer, right, for their aftermarket. Starts to sell like hotcakes. You know, there's usually that curve that you talk about where, you know, kind of doesn't sell, and then the next thing you know, it's taking off. And what happens? You know, the Detroit OEM or one of the other OEMs, you know, says, oh, that's brilliant, uh, I have all the specs, I have everything I need because you needed to give it to me to get certified. I'll just build it myself. Right. Am I imagining that, Mike? Is that something that's happened? Is that an issue for, you know, for the folks you represent? You know, what are your thoughts on that, if you don't mind?

Kind of reminds me of that movie on the intermittent windshield wipers. That was, you know, back in the '60s. That was the guy who invented it and then claims, you know. Right. I do still think there's room for a guy who creates something, a guy or girl who creates something in their garage, that's great technology. I think the difference, to your point, Mark, is how you get that technology from your garage into production, into the hands of the people who want it. That's where I do think it's more likely that you end up going to that larger company and just selling, selling your vision. Um, you know, back when I started in the work truck industry, there were a lot more single proprietorships, you know, family-owned business where, you know, almost all the distributors at the time were family-owned. And what we're seeing is, is as that generational transition took place, what was happening was the distributorship, depending on where they were, the land that they were on was worth more than the business was, particularly if they started in an urban area 20 or 30 years earlier. That land might be worth a lot. Other places I knew people were making money on their land because they had enough on the interstate and they could put a billboard or two billboards. So they were making money that way too. To do. That, I think, has changed. You know, it— they've become— I don't want to say more professional, but probably more efficient in how they run their businesses. And in some cases, that does mean either joining a larger corporation or, as your transition plans, selling to a bigger, bigger group. So we are seeing, as I said earlier, we're seeing consolidation, no question. Is it good or bad? Probably depends on your outlook and where you're sitting in the situation, but there's no question it's happening. We are dealing with bigger companies, more public ownership versus private.

That's interesting. So how has that maybe shaped what your role is and what you know, and what, what you're focused on in some way or form? Or has it shaped— has it, you know, and I would imagine it has.

Yeah, yeah, it really has. I think back again, you go way back, we were trying to do everything for everyone, even like Chamber of Commerce type stuff. People call, say, I'm having this issue, and we would try and help, obviously, and we still would try and help today. But what we found is we've found is that we tend to work on bigger, more complex issues that have more at stake, but still are not necessarily ones that everyone's going to play in. You know, like the EV world, we have specific kind of EV truck issues that are different from the issues, say, you know, one of the big OEMs might have on their passenger car. EV side. So I do think we— I'm trying to figure out the best way to put it— we focus on fewer issues, but we focus on them at a much higher and more detailed level, if that makes sense. Um, we, we've given up trying to be everything to everyone because we realize we can't be, but we can be really good at you know, a handful of really important things. So that's sort of how I think our world has changed at the association.

That sounds like the evolution of pretty much every successful organization, right?

Yeah, every mature business has to go through that.

Yeah, so that's interesting.

And then you get so big that you just like gobble up everything, and then you become everything, everything, right?

Yeah, then you become one of them again.

It's very difficult to become Walmart, right?

You have to Yeah, we're not there.

You know, let's pause here for a second. And, you know, you know, Mike, we've all kind of mentioned it, I think, at this point and danced around it. But we do have the Work Truck Show week coming. It's— why don't you tell us a little bit about it, when it is, where it is, and why you think, you know, obviously most of our audience are fleet professionals, as we've discussed, you know, why you think that it might be valuable to them and And then maybe we'll chime in on a little bit of that with our own experience. Yeah.

So, I mean, it's coming right up. I'm actually leaving on Saturday for Indianapolis, which is where we've had it for quite a few number of years. Way back in the past, we'd move it around every year. Terribly inefficient. And Indy just worked out for us really well. If you look at the kind of 500-mile day drive radius We've got a lot of interested companies. So it would start not this weekend, not today, but next Monday or Tuesday is when things start taking off. We've got Green Truck Summit, which is geared not simply at EVs, but at alternative fuels and that space. And that's a one-day, full-day program. And then Wednesday, the show itself opens. Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. We, you know, expect, you know, 15, 16, maybe 17,000 people to come through. Um, to say it's the biggest show— it's one of the biggest shows in the country, for— hey, it's top, top 50. Um, you know, in the motor vehicle world, it's, it's a very large show. But it's business to business, so it's not necessarily, you know, it's not like the auto show where you can bring kids and, you know, so it's a bit different. But I will say, for me personally, it's my favorite week of the year. It's completely different than anything else I do the other 51 weeks. And I've been going long enough, I know so many people, a lot of people who I only see that once a year, but I've not been seeing them for 30 years or something. So it's a great show. But for a fleet manager, really the reason to go is information, education. There is a really, really robust suite of educational offerings throughout the week in Indianapolis and a lot of really good industry professionals brought in to, you know, be on panels to discuss their challenges about things. So I think if you've been, you know the value and you probably want to go back. I sure hope you do. And if you haven't been, make a point to go at least once and see what, what's there, because I think you'll be very happily surprised if you haven't been. But yeah, it's a big deal.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. They, they've been trying to convince me to go for a long time, and I've always been sending people But they got me out and I was like, okay, I get it. Like, it's a big show. It's amazing. You get a little bit lost, but you just, you know, it was incredible seeing all the different solutions. The supply floor itself, the booth floor, show floor was really amazing. But the sessions, like the sessions were really jam-packed with some good stuff. We had an opportunity the year I went. We were teaching something on DOT compliance. So that was, you know, pretty insightful and pretty fun as well to be able to be a part of that.

Yeah, we'll be teaching this year as well. We do kind of like an introductory Introduction to Fleet, many of the Fleet Management 101 kind of a thing. Yeah, that sort of a thing. So we're really excited. We, we added a sort of a half day too with advanced, some advanced concepts for fleet management. So I've been going every year, Mike, since 2018. Obviously not as long as the 10 years you have, but I haven't missed it for various reasons. If thankfully Josh still pays for me to go, but if he didn't, I would take the week off and then just go on my own.

Which is why I keep paying for him to go. Well, people believe in it that much, like, you have to invest in them, you have to set them.

So I just think it's— I just think that show is— that the floor is phenomenal. And if you— I mean, you just learned the, the innovations, the new ideas that come out every year, and you see what folks do. And that's why I asked that question about the mom-and-pops, because I just think that's so important to our industry to continue to maintain that, you know, that open-mindedness and that innovation and thinking about different ways to solve problems that our people are really seeing in the real world. And these, these builds, man, they, they help people get their job done better, faster, or safer, like in every case.

We do a, um, we do a separate section because the floor show is completely sold out. We've actually taken other space in the convention center for first-time exhibitors, and that's where you'll see some of that innovative stuff. And, you know, we put it there and we You can get in a little earlier than you can to the rest of the show. So we do try and highlight it. So there is an avenue there, and that's exactly where you see that kind of stuff. You look like, oh, never thought about that.

Well, I like it because it keeps them from getting lost in the shuffle, right? It's like, hey, there's your dedicated space, and it gives you an opportunity that's all right here. So all the innovations together, and you're not trying to sit there and decipher, like, is this new? I don't remember this last year. It's just at a different location, you know. It's been there for 3 years and it's the first time you've seen it because it's a lot. You can get lost in there, right? Uh, but yeah, I love that. Of course, if you go, you do have to go to St. Elmo's. You do got to buy yourself some horseradish sauce.

They don't give us anything, but we should get some free horseradish sauce for this.

Totally.

Sponsorship right here. But that is by far the best horseradish sauce I've ever had in my life. And of course, if you get the prawn, like, they're jumbo massive.

They're massive.

Bring home the bottle.

Yeah, yeah.

Send us a bottle.

Actually, every time I see those, you know, I think they must be growing them next to the nuclear power plant.

We have a really nice steakhouse here.

Another alternative fuel.

Yeah, you know me, I'm very pro-nuclear, so, you know, that's how I like my shrimp too, with 3 eyes on it.

Yeah, but even that, to that point, Mike, you know, you mentioned the Green Summit. You know, now it's kind of like a thing. People are used to it, seeing technology associated with sustainability at pretty much every show. But I remember when that wasn't the case, you know, and seeing, you know, some of the folks who are kind of standard now, like the e-Lightning, the e-motors and all that stuff. And I remember XL Hybrids being the big, you know, talk of the show and all that stuff. They were turning regular work trucks into hybrid trucks and you know, all this jazz.

So the Green Truck Summit started— it actually wasn't called the Green Truck Summit, but it was in Chicago. It's like '08 or '09. I mean, it's a long time ago. Um, and we had T. Boone Pickens, um, the oil— Texas oil guy who at the time was, was big into wind, uh, wind power. And he was the keynote speaker. So we've seeing that world evolve. But we recognized, as I say, a good 15 years ago or so, 13 years ago, that the transition of technology and fuel was coming. We didn't know exactly where it was going at that point, and that was the reason for creating that, that summit, was to have a place to talk about that. Um, and, you know, over the years it's evolving, and now we're looking at Okay, what are these latest evolving trends and how does that affect both Green Truck Association, which is a division of NTEA, and the Green Truck Summit, which is the event at the Work Truck Show? So I think you'll see some changes in that programming as years go on too.

Yeah, I remember, I don't think it was, I think it was a couple of years ago already now, but I think we, maybe we were together for this one. Someone had a truck there that was like a giant rolling battery, and its purpose was to replace the traditional mobile truck so that all these EVs that are going to be out in the world, when they get stuck on the side of the road, they could charge them right there from this. Which I just thought, wow, I guess EVs are really here, right? That was like the smack— the moment when your fuel truck gets replaced by a battery truck.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, that's something we always talk about here in Washington, you know, whenever these issues come up, I'll always say— and again, nothing against EV technology, I think it's pretty amazing— but if you're going down to Florida after a hurricane with convoys of bucket trucks, you've got the charging issues on those trucks getting there from wherever they're coming from. And yeah, I see them driving down 95 all the time on the East Coast. And then you've got the issue of charging them once they're there, because they're there usually to fix the electric grid, right?

Exactly.

So yeah, you do need some sort of mobile source if it's going to work in any way. And I— there's still challenges there, I think.

Yeah. So I said it's going to be a plethora of options. It's not going to be just one. Yeah, there's just no way.

Just not— yeah.

And it shouldn't be. Like, I don't know why we, you know, why it has to be, right?

So, all right, absolutely.

All right, well, Mike, I think that's going to wrap it up for us. And any parting thoughts for any of our listeners?

Or this is what I tell, you know, I tell NTA's board every time I see them lately, you know, buckle up, it's going to be a bumpy ride.

The last 50 miles, the next 50 miles, just, you know, get used to it. Here we go.

Right.

Yeah. So, all right.

All right. Well, thank you very much, Mike, for joining us today on the show. We really appreciate having you. It's been an absolute pleasure, a lot of fun, and the topics have been varied, which has been— it's always fun for me. Yeah, you never know where we're going to go with the show sometimes, um, and just to take the conversation— it's been an awesome, awesome conversation.

So, well, thank you. I appreciate it. You know, both Josh and Mark, it's been a, been a pleasure.

Thanks, Mike. Definitely we'll see you next week and, uh, hope to have you back again.

Absolutely.

All right. Good luck with the show.

Thanks. Appreciate it.

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