Episode 167: Why Fleet Techs Are Leaving – And How to Keep Them

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Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Fleet Success Show. I am Mark Canton, the head of product and consulting over at RTA Fleet. I've been in fleet for I don't know, almost 30 years focusing most of my effort around cost modeling and various best practices in the fleet management industry as both a consultant and as a practitioner. And now in helping to develop software, I am joined by my friends and colleagues, Facundo Tesada. Forgive me, Facundo, I'm saying it the, the, let's say, romance language way. And my other good friend, Nathan Shafer. So Guys, welcome to the show. Facundo, start with you. Tell us a little bit about yourself and your background real quick and we'll get into it.

So I am currently a Fleet Success Manager here at RTA. Been in automotive/fleet for 25 years. Started kind of as we all do on accident, you know, just needed a part-time job and that turned into really loving the industry and then have been here at RTA for just a little over a year.

Awesome. Yeah, it's amazing how we all seem to kind of fall into this industry, right?

Yeah. Nobody says, I'm going to be a fleet manager when I grow up.

Mommy, I want to grow up and be a fleet manager. We got to change that though. One day there will be. Nathan, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Yeah, I'm Nathan Schaefer. So I've been in the fleet industry for, you know, 25 years, give or take. Started as a technician, worked my way up through the shop and, you know, managed city government fleets and private fleets. Uh, and just like you guys, love the industry, love talking about it, love giving back. Uh, it's a great place to be.

Yeah. So I brought you guys on today because there's a hot topic. Frankly, it's been a hot topic for a while now, for a few years. Um, and it's, it's an issue that we're starting to see some movement on, but at the same time it's growing. And we've talked about it before on the show. I think, I think it's like at every conference— I don't know about you guys, you guys go to a lot of conferences too— it's like at every conference it's always coming up about basically attracting and retaining good talent in the fleet industry. And that can be very broad. A lot of— sometimes the conversation is really zoned in on technicians, but I would argue it's probably even bigger than technicians, right? It's even getting great fleet managers, great fleet management analysts. Boy, a great parts supervisor is worth their weight in gold, right? So I know you're both kind of passionate about it. And Facundo, something you've been putting a lot of time and thought into. So Just start off right there. Kind of when I bring up this thought and this issue in our industry today, kind of what comes to mind for Kunda? What are your thoughts around it?

We've been talking about this kind of round and round technician shortage, don't have qualified people, can't get people to work for us. And so I've kind of been thinking about it for a while and it really started hitting me in a different way when I did that post about finding the books there at the office and starting the book club. Um, and we always talk about, you know, recruiting technicians, working with, you know, schools, um, you know, recruiting them out of high school, uh, giving them training programs, apprenticeship programs, all these different things. And the more I started talking to people after doing, you know, starting that book club, one of the things I noticed, and actually we were doing some coaching around this with, with one of our customers, is that transition that's happening from being a technician to a supervisor, and then supervisor to other, you know, fleet manager type levels. And so what I started thinking about is, as I started engaging in this within the last several months, was nobody's talking to technicians at the very front end when they're thinking about this, right? Like, hey, I'm good with my hands, what can I do? You know, maybe, you know, being a mechanic might be a profession, and boom, they go be a mechanic. I don't really think about it. And then a few years later, like, hey, I'm getting tired, or I don't want to do this, or the hours are rough, or whatever it might be. But nobody's talking to them on the front end saying, let's talk a little bit about the career path that you might have as the technician, being kind of that gateway into this career. And I've been talking to even folks that are running, um, um, like community colleges or technical colleges and it's really missing from their curriculum. So that's kind of where the conversation started for me, is really taking it back to the very beginning to talk about these different paths that could happen that people are not aware of. And I think we're doing a massive disservice to ourselves, to the industry by not talking about that.

Yeah, it's a great point and it's come up here, right? You know, technicians, you can go get an ASC certification. There's some path there. You know, people have heard me harp on this show that there's not enough out there for fleet managers. As great of a job as NAFLA and APWA and others do with their certification programs. We still don't have a degree in fleet management. But you bring up a really good point, right? That's just a massive gap, right? You're turning wrenches and then one day you're asked to go lead people and there's really not much out there for you outside of, like you said, you know, hiring us or someone like us to do some coaching and to do some training for you. You know, Nathan, you lived this. You went from turning wrenches like a couple of other guys in our team. You went from turning wrenches to next thing you know, you're you're the boss, you know. I mean, what are your thoughts? What are your memories from that? I feel like we just kind of threw you, you know, throw folks like you into the fire, you know, and— or sink— or the sink or swim thing, right?

Well, and it's interesting because for me, that's exactly what happened. It was one day you're this and the next day you're that. And, you know, you get a little bit of leadership coaching, but until you start living it, you really don't understand the concepts of it, right? Um, and I'll take it back even to like Connect in 2020, because that's when Josh really started getting on about his leadership and culture stuff. And it sparked this thought for me, and that was to go back and actually ask your technicians what they want to do with their careers.

Right, like Facundo is saying.

Yeah, and I think that's what we're missing, right? And finding out what their goals are and helping them attain their goals, you start to find all these different directions that they want to go. And sometimes it's not even in the fleet industry anymore, right? So I think that's— a key step that we miss a lot.

Yeah. So, Fukuna, you've been putting thought into this. And in fact, like you mentioned, I think you got now a couple engagements where essentially you're aimed at trying to arm this technician who may, who may have wonderful automotive skills, you know, but has never really been taught how to manage people, you know, maybe how to look at data. You know, there's all kinds of skills, different kinds of organizational skills that they just haven't had the opportunity to exercise that muscle or even train that muscle. And you're trying to kind of fill that gap. Is that— am I putting words in your mouth or is that kind of where your efforts are?

No, no, you hit it. So I'll give you an example of one thing that I did with a customer was, you know, I started talking about some of the responsibilities as a technician versus some of how the responsibilities are going to shift as a supervisor, right? As a technician, you're recognized on, you know, efficiency, productivity, things like that, right? And then you can measure those things in however you're measuring them. So as a supervisor, it's a little bit harder because you're measured on their success. And so one of the things I got them to do, and this was fun, I turned up the volume on this audio file that I had and I said, "What is that?" You know, and they're like, "What is that?" I turned up the volume and it was an engine that was knocking, right? So then I said, "Listen to that, what is that?" And so when they're like, "Oh, that's an engine knocking," I was like, "Exactly. So do you know that part of the brain you just used that you were listening?" that's the main thing you're going to have to start doing differently now. You know, you're gonna have to start listening a lot more. Um, and they're like, oh, oh, okay, so listening like you're trying to do a diagnostic on a vehicle, right? You're really paying attention to what's going on and observing and listening and smelling and everything. And so I think, you know, technicians, I think for me, are, they're very like obviously very hands-on, have to see things and touch things and understand things. And putting it in that perspective for them, it was a room full of I think it was like 12 or 13 different folks in transition. And they had a little bit of an aha moment, which was, oh, okay. Like, and some folks, you know, the technicians that they don't have a shot at being in, you know, a supervisor kind of role.

We've all met one of those guys or several.

And then, you know, the guys that have some potential. And then, you know, the guys that are like, this guy can totally do it. Right. But it was nice to see that moment when you can put it in terms that they immediately understand and just say, take that same line of what you're doing and just shift it this way.

Dovetail off of that, going back to getting the technicians to understand the bigger picture of the operation while they're still technicians. And this goes back to when we start asking technicians to write work orders and do coding, you know, them understanding the why or the big picture of what they're doing also helps lead into that. Well, now I'm a supervisor and I understand why we're collecting the data, so it's easier for me to go get it.

Yeah, and that's a great point. And that, that really feeds really very well into some of the things we talk about in our 4 pillars, right? And and managing stakeholders and stakeholder satisfaction. And certainly your fleet customers are, your bosses are, your leadership are stakeholders. But, you know, in our view of it, your team is a stakeholder as well. Right. And so having that communication and that feedback loop is really key. There's a lot of evidence to show that when you include folks and you show them the impact of their work and how it impacts the bigger picture, it's extremely powerful, right? It's motivating. It leads to better performance. More efficient performance later on. And to kind of bridge the gap here, it does begin that process of preparing them for that, that next stage or that next step in life, right? Because, you know, if we're being honest, like, what is the career track? One of the things, you know, it was funny, we were just at NTEA, Scott Rood and Steve Saltskiver and I, and we had a little sort of section of one of the courses and it was about, hey, if you really want to retain talent, you have to have upward movement opportunity for them in some way, shape, or form, right? And we believe it does start right at the technician level, right? Like, You should have technician 1, technician 2, technician 3, that sort of a thing to acknowledge as people progress in their skills and your reliance on them and so forth and their abilities. So even bringing it down to that level, but then what comes, right? Like what's typical, you know, Nathan, did you go straight from being a tech to a fleet manager? Is it, you know, sometimes you'll see, you know, guys kind of fed up with being on their trucks all day on their back and say, you know what, I'm going to go use these skills and maybe move into parts or something like that. Right. It's, you know, it's shop supervisors, it's service writers. Like, what is the path? Like, you know, what is the path that that technician has to, you know, ultimately, I guess they're trying to get to fleet manager or maybe even beyond. But what do you think is the typical path? What is the best path? And are we thinking about it? Are we giving them the skills to kind of get there? What are you guys' thoughts on that?

I think the typical path is you start as a technician, you know, and if you're in a spot where there is some movement, you know, you might get promoted or take over a lead tech role and get some experience there. And then, You know, if the supervisor retires, then you get, you know, you might get promoted. That seems to be the most common. For me, I kind of got thrown into this role where I was the technician, the supervisor, and the fleet manager all in one. So, you know, I was managing all of it and fixing things. It was a fairly small fleet, so it was pretty easy. But as we grew, I had to bring more people in, and that just escalated that supervisor role. But I think people that start on the ground as a technician and work their way up and get promoted, to me, I think that makes a better fleet manager because they understand the operation at all levels.

It does. I was just going to add, for me though, it was a completely different opposite entrance into fleet management, which was, "Hey, Dad, I needed a part-time job in college." And I was like, "You're hiring me to—" And he's like, "To do what?" "To answer the phone or something." And so I started that way, which was just answering the phone, helping, talking to people, taking names, starting work orders, um, into learning how a business was run. And in the meantime, I literally, literally had a view into the shop and talking to technicians. I think that one of the things that has helped me think differently was because I was able to kind of think in terms of a manager or management, and also incorporate the way that technicians go about their work troubleshooting and doing things like that. So I would actually help troubleshoot with technicians, and some technicians that came later on in my career, they'd be like, were you a technician before? I was like, no, I've just been talking to technicians for a long time, so I understand the way they think, and it's helped me understand the way to think. Um, so it's really helped. I mean, I think it can really benefit both ways, right? I mean, for a person that's coming into a company that I used to work with in one of my previous startups that I did. When they hire technicians, they actually hire, hey, do you like to play video games? Are you an engineer? Come work with us. You'd literally work on autonomous robots. And so they hire in a completely different way. So when you're hiring maybe for a potential manager position, do you enjoy working on vehicles? Do you have this level of skill? Then maybe you can recruit people from outside the industry that you couldn't before. Even not from the technicians.

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Yeah, one of the things we also talked about is, you know, this concept of cross-training and really trying to, you know, find every opportunity for that. A lot of times folks kind of stick around to the technical element where you know, hey, this guy does electric, this guy does diesel, you know, those sorts of things. And, and that's good, but I'm thinking much bigger than that. Like, you know, you know, Nathan, next thing— and both of you, right— next thing you know, you're supervising a shop or managing a fleet, especially if it's a smaller fleet. Parts person isn't there, who's doing parts, right? No one ever taught you to do parts. Now you're doing parts, right? Especially, like I said, in some of those smaller groups, who's doing the service writing? So You know, I encourage— I think it's a really good idea, especially if you're— and kind of flip this on the head, guys. You know, what are the things we want to tell techs who maybe want to move their way up? Right. So first off, I want to say, hey, if you're thinking about a career, technician's a great— it's a great opportunity, right? College is for a lot of people. It's not for everyone. You can do it even if you did college. But there is a career path there. And that's part of our messages. Kind of like we need to help get that out more. What are some tips you might give to those folks who are trying to work? Like, one of them that I would advocate for is try to go do it all. If there's an opportunity to do parts, to do service, right? And, you know, do those things if you're filling in for someone. So that's one thing. And whether it's in or out, right, there might be some skills that they're just going to struggle to get their hands on or get to practice them while they're doing their mechanic position, right? They're just not going to get exposed to it. You know, the thing that's coming to my mind right now is like data and data analytics. They may or may not have the opportunity to really dig in there. And that's something they are going to want to go kind of spend some time on, um, you know, getting comfortable in Excel and those sorts of things if they're trying to move up the chain. So what do you— what do you, gentlemen, what advice would you have? You know, kind of what are you thinking about, Fukuno? What's working for you in the coaching element there? Uh, you know, what are your thoughts?

What seems to be working is— I was talking about a little bit earlier— is let's talk about what's the same, and let's talk about what's different between those different responsibilities. And, you know, they can see how one might start as something and evolve into something, but you need that foundation from whatever it might be, right? Being accountable for yourself. And then once you're accountable for yourself, you can start to, you know, lead others. I think that's, you know, really trying to keep it simple and not overcomplicating it. I mean, I think it's important that they can see if they get into the management you know, go from being a technician to management, what's going to come with that? Especially one thing that makes a little bit different in government, which is one of the reasons I was drawn to government, is it's a perfect, um, intersection of automotive and, um, uh, politics, you know. So you don't have to know how to talk the language, right?

Yeah, I, you know, for me, you hit one of them on the head, which is cross-training, right? Um, training up, training down, learning everybody's roles, I think is a valuable thing to do. The greatest piece of advice I ever got in my career, and I'll never forget this, was never turn down a training opportunity. And that was when I was in the military, right? And they give you all kinds of these free trainings and stuff. And I've, I've always kept that in my career, even as a technician, right? Vendors put on a lot of different training opportunities. Even if you think it's dumb or you'll never use it, go attend it because you're going to learn something, right? And then Last piece I'll give is just show the willingness to want to learn or want to move up. If your supervisors or your fleet manager understands that, you know, you have this passion and you want to move up and do things, they're probably more apt to give you opportunities to learn.

With that, guys, I think we're going to call this a session. You have any other closing thoughts or any other ideas that you wanted to make sure you get out there and kind of help this, help our industry continue to kind of progress and deal with these issues?

Look for me to make a lot of noise now on the talking to people on the front end. Interestingly, I was— so I'm at home right now, but I work out of this shared office space here. For the folks that don't know, I work remotely out of Florida. So they were hosting this event and this lady was talking. Fast forward like a week later, ran into her at Starbucks. I was like, hey, you were talking at this one place, weren't you? Yeah, I was talking, and what do you do? Oh, I do, I'm the head of the vocational whatever for the county in St. Johns County where I live. And I'm like, oh, well, you know, I've been doing that for a while in the industry and here's what I think is missing. And I told her exactly what I told you guys at the beginning, right? Like, who's, do you guys have anything that's telling your high school students about this, you know, this career path? It's not just the trades, it's what comes after the trades. I wrote this article a while ago about, um, you know, the, the skilled trades, the new American dream. Because when you look at it, the folks that are plumbers and stuff, like, if those guys are good business people, they'll get— they're going to be charging you more per hour than your doctor. And oh, by the way, they don't have that college debt either. Um, and so that to me is something that's, um, that I'm super passionate about. And I think, as I mentioned, I'm going to start making a lot of noise about that. Um, you know, getting out on the front end, talking to, you know, technicians, talking to teenagers about that kind of stuff, because I think it's very important. That's where people completely miss it at the beginning of their potential career.

Yeah, that's, that's a great point. And that's something we've talked a little bit about. I posted about it. You know, you have, you know, you have NAFA out there trying to create these relationships with the technical schools, which is great. But kind of getting out in front of that is super important. You made a great point there about Hey, we need people getting in the trades, but also think beyond the trades. I mean, my electrician and plumber, they both make more money than I do, so they must be doing all right. Like you said, you know, good, good business folks. So, and, you know, that's another good point we didn't hit, you know. So, so two things, you know, we almost— we talk about it so much here that maybe it's kind of ingrained and, you know, people have heard it a lot, but you never know, right? You might have a first-time listener where, boy, the culture is so important. I know mechanics are notorious for leaving for $0.50 an hour. I gotta tell you, I'm skeptical. I, I know they will leave, but if they're leaving you for a dollar an hour, there's something else wrong in your shop that, that needs to be fixed, you know. Uh, hey, if it's a $5 or $10 or something, maybe not, right? But, you know, something's not there. Either the culture's not right— and we have plenty of other shows on culture and how to do it, and plenty of trainings on that— but either something's not right about that culture, or probably they just don't see, you know, we, we know that, um, You know, the top 3 reasons people leave— yeah, pay is one of them, 2 is they hate the boss, and 3, they don't see any upward movement opportunities. So that goes back to kind of what we were talking about. You got to lay out that path. You got to show people that there is a future for them. So if you're, if you're struggling to keep people, you know, keep those 3 things in mind. Um, you know, you really got to have a good culture. You got to reward people. We've talked about that quite a bit in the past. You know, it doesn't have to be a lot. A pizza party can go a long way. They hit their metrics for the month, you know, those sorts of things. So if you're interested in learning more, we have entire sessions about this stuff. Just reach out to us at podcast@rtafleet.com and we're more than happy to kind of share more information on what, what might help you attract and, you know, retain good talent, especially in that technician front. So with that, guys, thank you so much for joining me. It was awesome talking to you. Next time I hope you're in studio and we'll do it together here. And yeah, have a great day. Take care, everyone. We hope you enjoyed the show.

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