Episode 192 The #1 Mistake Fleets Make with Safety and How to Fix It

This is the Fleet Success Show dedicated to helping you and your fleet succeed using the experience of fleet professionals and Hall of Fame fleet legends. The show that explores how the pillars of stakeholder satisfaction, intentional culture, resource efficiency, and risk management all combine to lead your fleet to success. We're glad you're here. Now let's get into the show.

Hi there. Welcome to the Fleet Success Podcast. I'm your host today, Steve Salske, and I'm joined today by my good friend and fellow FleetPro, Matt Betz. Hi, Matt. Thanks for joining me today.

Steve, I'm honored to be here with you. You are truly a legend in fleet, and I'm just glad to be associated with anything that you're associated with.

Well, I appreciate that. Tell me a little bit about your, your story and your experience.

Well, I've been in fleet for a long time, over 50 years. Started right out of school. My dad worked for Budget Rent-A-Car. And got me a job here in the Detroit area with Budget. And that— I was with them for a number of years, but that evolved into jobs with a couple of local fleet management companies here in the Detroit area. And then the big move, I guess, in terms of career was in the mid-'80s. I joined Wheels Incorporated and was their Midwest major fleet sales guy for almost 20 years. And then when I left Wheels, took jobs with a number of companies that provide services to the fleet management industry, you know, helping create channels for partnerships and expand their fleet footprint. And then the last 5 years of my career working for somebody else, was with DTE. So after all these years of selling to fleet managers, I actually got to sit on the other side of the desk for a while and among other things, headed up DTE's EV program. So I had the experience and the great fortune to, you know, introduce EVs to the DTE fleet as well as building out all the infrastructure I think by the time it was done, we installed almost 300 EV chargers at DTE locations around the city of Detroit. And so a great experience. But when they offered the opportunity for an early retirement, I took that. Not sure I would consider 69 years old early retirement, but I took the opportunity to retire. and started Ore Creek Fleet. And so now, I'm working to help, uh, introduce new companies to the fleet industry.

Oh, okay. You and I share a couple of things in common. Uh, we both lived in Atlanta when you were at LeasePlan, and, uh, we got to actually got to get, get out and get some golf done while we were there. And then also we crossed paths at DTE. I did a consulting project back when I was with Mercury Associates, and then you followed in on top of that consulting project, which I thought was kind of interesting.

Yeah, it was a lot of fun. In fact, they referred to that project a number of different times. And, you know, after a while, the response when I would open my mouth was, "Yeah, Matt, we know that you knew Steve Saltzgiver, you know, and we don't need to hear that story again." But the golf games in Atlanta were a lot of fun and one of my best memories of my time there.

Yeah, absolutely. Me too. It was really good to get together. I still golf. Do you?

I've had a couple of surgeries over the last couple of years that have precluded that, but I'm just getting back into it now. So yeah, uh, would like to get back out on the course. We'll have to play sometime.

Yeah, it'd be great. Um, I, I, uh, our headquarters are here in, of course, you know, in Phoenix area. So anytime you get out this way, let me know and we'll get out here and hook up.

Or if you're in Salt Lake, just for that.

Sounds good. So you share also something in common with me. You were inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2024, and obviously I've been in the Hall of Fame since 2019. So tell me about how does that honor feel to you personally and professionally?

Well, I'm not sure I can describe it. I talked to a friend of mine here in the neighborhood who played hockey into his adult years, and this came up. He had read an article And it came up and I said, look, it's not quite like being in the NHL Hall of Fame, but for our industry, it really is sort of the same thing, right? It's recognizing a long and fruitful career and the fact that your peers recognize you and vote for you. I think those are all similar to any other Hall of Fame. It's just our industry isn't quite as well known, uh, and you don't get a big, uh, giant ring, uh, when you, uh, enter the Fleet Hall of Fame. But, uh, the recognition is every bit as much appreciated, uh, and, uh, the bigger honor is, uh, being recognized by your peers as having contributed to the fleet industry. So yeah, I couldn't be prouder. Um, You know, it's not something you can lead conversations with, but I'm very proud to be in the same, you know, room, if you will, as you, but also all the other folks that have been inducted before us.

It's kind of funny. You reminded me when I got inducted in 2019, I think it was 2019, could be '17 while I think about it. But I also won the Legendary Achievement Award. There was a big glass trophy. And as I was doing something, I dropped it and it shattered all over the place. So you think about a ring, that was my ring, but destroyed it. So it was kind of a weird day that day. But so you've been deeply involved also in NAFA and AFLA, being past president of AFLA. Tell me about how that's helped your fleet career.

Well, one of the things I recommend to any new person that's entering fleet or anybody that's been in fleet for a while and asks is, you know, it's, it's very rewarding to be involved in industry associations. Um, I, I was on the board of NETS. I'm not sure if you're familiar, but NETS is the Network of Employers for Traffic Safety. Any of the listeners that are interested in traffic safety, they're Website is www.trafficsafety.org. So wonderful organization, but focused more on traffic safety than other areas of fleet. I spent, I don't know, probably 30 years on the NFA board in different positions. And I think I was the first affiliate to be on the board, either the first or second. You know, back then they separated affiliate members from fleet manager members. And we fought really hard to get more equal representation for those people that, you know, provide support for the fleet industry. And so now I forget, I was either the first or second affiliate member to be on the board of NFA. And then, you know, started focusing a little bit more on AFLA. And as you mentioned, when When you win the secretary role at NAFA, it really is a 5-year progression because you start as the secretary and then you go to VP— well, 4 years, I guess— VP, then you're the president, and then you're for 1 year, you're the past president. And that's where I am right now with AFLA. I'm the current past president. That will end in October or September at the conference.

Okay, let's switch gears a little bit. Tell me about the challenges you had at DTE when you're implementing the EV program. A lot of people are always interested in kind of the biggest challenges, mistakes made, or what are your takeaways on some— on that?

Yeah, well, I'm going to start with something positive. There were many, many challenges, but I'm going to start with something positive, and it's something that I haven't heard any other organization do. So DTE not only has like an operational excellence team that's all about process, but they also have a team that's dedicated to change management. And as soon as we started the EV program, we were assigned a really special person. Her name is Gail Lysinski, and she was our change management specialist. And so all along the way, she worked right alongside of me and, you know, would help me from stepping on landmines and really guided us towards acceptance of the EV program. So as many of your other guests or listeners, you know, probably know, there are a lot of people who are not yet sold on EVs. Range is an issue. Charging sometimes, you know, becomes an issue. People have a lot of questions around how EVs are gonna fit into a fleet operation. In DTE's case, uh, they do most of their maintenance in their own garages. So there were a lot of questions about how are we gonna maintain these, how are we gonna separate them from the rest of the vehicles when they're being maintained, are there fire risks? And they're all legitimate questions, but we had a mandate from the CEO to get a certain number of vehicles into the system by a certain date. And so we couldn't move off of that goal. And so Gail's role was just absolutely crucial to our success. So, what are some of the challenges? One is just finding vehicles that meet the need, right? So, we had— you know, I don't think it was a big challenge to find pickup trucks, you know, that supervisors could drive because they don't carry much weight. But they had to have enough range that they could get through their day on a single charge. They didn't have time to stop at a location, uh, even for a fast charge. They needed to, to be able to get through their day. So finding vehicles with range was a challenge. Uh, in some cases, when it came to maybe van applications, finding vehicles that could carry the weight required can be a problem because of the weight of the batteries, as everybody knows by now. Getting people just to buy into the general concept that we should be putting more expensive EVs in the fleet was an issue. And then just the challenge of charging and installing chargers. As I mentioned, I think we did almost 300 chargers at different locations. Locations. Well, if you've ever worked for a utility, and especially one that, you know, maybe hasn't built a lot of new facilities in 50 years, geography is an issue. And finding enough property that the service station manager is willing to give up for chargers can be a real challenge. They're tight as it is. And they don't want to dedicate 15 or 20 spots to just electric vehicles and chargers, especially when they may not have those electric vehicles for another 5 years. So we, you know, we took the path where we said if we're ripping up infrastructure and we're going to run power into a, into a geographic location, we're going to put enough chargers or at least put the power lines in that will handle whatever chargers we foresee for the next 10 or 15 years. And so working through all of that and trying to help people understand the benefit of this and, and how DTE was going to be a leader in the EV market, especially within fleet, you know, can be a challenge. But by the time it was all said and done, all the vehicles got delivered, all the infrastructure went in, everything worked really well. And we got very, very few complaints. But it's because we took the time to meet with every constituency and every stakeholder that we could think of, listen to their concerns, address their concerns. And we honestly made adjustments to the program based on some of the stuff we learned in those meetings. We did not go in thinking we knew it all. We went in thinking we had a lot to learn and we wanted to make the program work. And so we used the whole team to make the program work.

So anything funny or mistakes or anything that happened that you can comment on without getting in trouble?

People are not going to believe that we didn't rehearse this when I tell you this story. You have not heard this because I don't tell many people. There's a young man that works for DTE named Sean Guta. And Sean worked on the other side of the team. So I was responsible for EVs in the DTE fleet. Sean's job, along with the team, was to help customers get EVs, whether it was individuals or businesses. So he was sort of an evangelist for EV. And I was going to take Sean to a NAFA meeting down in Indianapolis to do a presentation on how you can use your utility to help, you know, with your EV program. So Sean and I decide we're going to grab an EV and we're going to make the trip down to Indianapolis from Detroit, which is way beyond the range of a typical EV. And, you know, we're going to document along the way stopping to charge and all that. And the whole idea was to show how simple it could be. So Mr. EV here grabbed a Chevy Volt and didn't realize it didn't have Level 3 charging capabilities until we're about halfway to Indianapolis and find out we've got to stop and charge for 3 hours somewhere just to get enough charge to move on to the next charging station. By the time we got to the— we did think ahead and booked a hotel that had overnight chargers that we could use. But by the time we got to the hotel that night, probably 5 hours later than we thought we were going to get there, we had the windows rolled down, no air conditioning, radio off. We're drafting a big truck and prepared to push this little Chevy you know, into the hotel parking lot if we had to. But we actually made it down there and back, uh, but it— we were not able to create the commercial we thought we were going to create for how easy it was to travel with an EV.

I think that's funny though. I mean, one of the things you said though, you have to be brave and you have to be bold and confident, make sure, you know, and that's what you did. You know, a lot of people have that range anxiety and everything else, but you've just gotta move forward, you know?

Yeah. And that story, I don't wanna discourage anybody. That was all on me, right? That was my fault. I didn't check to make sure that vehicle had Level 3 capabilities. And, you know, shame on me for not checking.

You know, I tell my grandson, he always asks me how to be successful. I'm gonna say basically, well, this is how I was, you know, when I was younger and I was a young kid like him, somebody had thrown me the keys to a backhoe and I'd look at it and go, well, I've never operated a backhoe, but I'll go figure it out. That's kind of how our generation was. We didn't ask a lot of questions. We just went and figured it out for ourselves, you know? So, and we made mistakes like everybody.

That's true. Everybody does.

Well, let's switch gears a little bit and talk about your safety days at Samba and some of those. And I know you got into a lot of driver behavior, telematics, which was instrumental in bringing you to the Hall of Fame. So let's talk a little bit about that.

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Yeah, I, I don't know exactly when it began, Steve, but somewhere along the line at NAPA, I became, uh, you know, one of the presenters, um, that, you know, presented on fleet safety. and it, it just became one of those topics where people would ask me to come in and, and do a presentation on fleet safety. And I really enjoyed it and had a passion for it. Um, one of the big turning points was I was at a, uh, NFA, uh, meeting out in Seattle, and, um, I didn't realize there was going to be another speaker. So we're at lunch, we're at this beautiful venue, we're at lunch I'm going to do my presentation after lunch. And this very attractive young woman, very glamorous looking, walks in. She's carrying a little dog, big sunglasses, like a movie star, you know, walked in with another woman with her. Well, over lunch I find out her name is Maria, and she had been in a horrible crash where somebody with an unsecured load lost a bookshelf off the back of a pickup truck and it came through her windshield and smashed her face back to her ears where they thought she was not going to survive. And through some miracle, she not only survived, but thrived. And it was her mother that was with her and they did the presentation before me. So they were successful in creating Maria's Law. I think it's the state of Washington. And it now has penalties, I believe, as stiff as drunk driving for having an unsecured load. But just hearing her story and meeting her and seeing how she maneuvered, you know, the aftermath of that story just had such an impact on me. And then some years later, I met a woman by the name of Pam O'Donnell, who currently does a lot of safety presentations. Pam lost her husband and young daughter in a crash, and she has dedicated her life to fleet safety. So, you know, when you do enough presentations and you meet people, you just become reinvigorated and re-motivated to do more. So somewhere along the line, my daughter Allison got her PhD in behavioral psychology, and I started inviting her to come in and do— because, you know, drivers are humans, and, and the things they do that are less than ideal, you know, is human behavior. And we wanted her to address that at NAAFA and NATS and AFLA. And so she came in and started doing presentations on, you know, how to impact humans and how to change their behaviour so that they'll be safer. And, you know, specifically when we're talking about drivers. So now I get to work with my daughter, you know, and she's become the expert in— nobody— when the name Betz comes up, they think of her, not me. So, you know, so Dr. Alison Betz is now the safety expert in fleet and I'm just the guy that helps her, you know, get to and from speaking engagements.

So what are some of the learnings that you've come away with, you know, and what kind of things can you do to become more safe?

That's a little bit of a loaded question for anybody that knows me because I have to remind myself all the time when I'm behind the wheel not to fall into my normal patterns and to drive more safely and to follow the rules that I sometimes espouse when I'm driving versus when I'm presenting. But I think the biggest thing, everybody that I talk to in fleet, everybody's trying to choose the right vehicle. They're picking safe vehicles. They're putting safety equipment in vehicles. They're using telematics. They're using dashcams. They're training their drivers and they're spending a lot of money to train drivers. But they're still frustrated. And they're frustrated, I think, for a couple of reasons. One, through telematics and other sources, there's this wealth of data coming at them. And it's almost to the point where it's too much data and they don't know what to do with it. I think finding a way to weed through that data and deal with the exceptions, uh, is really important. The second thing is we keep training people in things that they've already been trained on. So if you think of a typical program, somebody's been speeding, so what do we do? We send them the speeding training and they have to watch the speeding training, and next month They're speeding again, and we send them the exact same training. So we're not addressing human behavior. We're just trying to automate the process. And, and I, I hate to make this sound negative, but in some ways I think we're just trying to show that we did something, maybe not the most effective thing, but we're trying to show that we did something. And if we're really going to change that behavior, we have to address human behavior. And that's where people like Allison come in, in that they know how to change, how to address different behaviors and what to do to get those behaviors changed. And that's the part that I think we need to start paying more attention to. You're, you're hearing a lot in the industry today about driver behavior, but with very few exceptions, We're still trying to automate it. And, you know, you know as well as I do that that's not going to get you to change any of your behaviors when you're reaching for that cookie. Getting a text message that says, hey, it's unhealthy to eat cookies isn't going to change anything. You have to get into my head a little bit, you know, and say, hey, Matt, here's why you shouldn't have that cookie. And, and what are we going to do? Why are you eating that cookie? One of the, one of the other challenges I think we have in the industry is that people just don't understand human behavior. So with NETS right now, one of Allison's coworkers, Dr. Matey, and I are working with NETS because they have a post-incident toolkit that they make available to their members. And we were looking at it And Nick said, this isn't right. You know, in terms of human behavior, this one section here, they were trying to point at, you know, what was the root cause of the crash. And in most cases, people would list, well, speeding was the root cause. And Nick's point was, when you're talking about human behavior, the speeding was just the, the result. The root cause is something else. You have to dig a lot deeper to get to the root cause and what caused that human to drive the way they did. Why were they speeding? What pressure was on them to make them speed? And so that's the approach we're trying to take. I, I work with Allison's company a little bit. It's called ABA Technologies. And what we're trying to do is, you know, twofold. One is an assessment. And so going in and looking for things like, you know, hey, what you're listing as root cause isn't really the root cause. You got a gap there that we need to fill. It's like, like any consulting project that you take on. We're just very focused on human behavior. And then the second thing we're working on is Instead of trying to automate and send training, you know, to the driver, which we know isn't working, what we're suggesting is training the supervisor of the driver to be a better coach, to be an effective coach. So, so then when telematics says Matt was speeding, it sends a note to the supervisor and says, hey, you need to sit Matt down and have a chat, and don't forget your training. Here's the couple of things, you know, that you need to talk through. Here's what we taught you on how to be a good trainer, how to be a good coach, and, and, and how to make Matt drive more safely in the future. I think that's going to have a bigger impact than almost anything else we can do.

I was just thinking, as a perpetual speeder who got many tickets, I try to figure out what is my root cause, and I think probably impatience is probably my root cause. I'm not very patient. I like to get from point A to point B quickly.

Well, an example that I use though that you might see in a fleet situation, and I don't know if it's the case, but I used to work with a lot of pharmaceutical fleets and their drivers are mostly sales reps. And those sales reps at least used to have a quota. You gotta go see 20 doctors a day, right? So what happens when it's 2 o'clock in the afternoon and that driver's only gotten through 10 doctor visits for whatever reason. Now they've got another 10 to do in 2 hours. They're gonna be zipping in and out of traffic. They're gonna be driving crazy because their driving force is their bonus. And I'm not gonna get my bonus if I don't hit those 20 doctor visits in a day. So that's something that it's got nothing to do with, you know, wanting to speed. It's the company put me in a position and motivated me to speed. Because I want my bonus. That's the root cause. And so until you can go in and talk to the company and meet with the VP of sales and meet with the safety professionals, you know, you're not going to change speeding until you change the root cause of the speeding.

Good point. Well, tell us a little bit about Ore Creek now.

That's—

that fascinates me a little bit where you're introducing people to the fleet consulting or the fleet market, I guess.

Yeah, yeah. So people often ask about the name and they think there's some, you know, big story behind the name. There's not. There's a creek actually in my area called Ore Creek. And a lot of local businesses here are Ore Creek Jewelry or Ore Creek Veterinary Clinic, whatever. And I just like the name. So I stole that Ore Creek for Fleet Consulting. It has nothing really to do with fleet. But I, as I said, I, you know, got the opportunity to retire from DTE before I was ready to actually quit working. And I thought I would, you know, just sort of work part-time here and there and find a company that needed a little advice on entering the fleet market. But the CEO of ABA Technologies reached out and wanted to hire me full-time, but I really didn't want to commit that much time. So I started the consulting company, and they get a big portion of my time right now. But I've got one or two other companies also that are in the same position. They have a new product, they want to, you know, get into the fleet market, but they don't want to take 2 or 3 years to do it. And so they hire me to help them navigate the quickest way to get recognized in the fleet market. And it's worked pretty well so far. As I said, people now recognize Dr. Betz and ABA Technologies as the behavioral specialist in fleet. And soon the other company that I, I can't mention the name of right now, uh, you know, is in a similar market. They, they are doing, um They're pulling vehicle telematics direct from the OEM cloud and then taking it and, and putting it in a format that makes fleet management easier. Now this, they're going to focus on smaller fleets that might not have a big fleet management system in place. But for instance, a fleet person responsible for the local heating and cooling fleet will be able to come in in the morning, log in, and they'll actually know that vehicle 123 has low tire pressure in its right front tire and the driver should address it before they go out on their shift, you know, for the day. Or then you'll get the normal telematics stuff, speeding and all of that. But, but by pulling the data direct from the OEM cloud, you're also pulling in all the alerts that the driver is getting in the vehicle. But the person responsible for the fleet isn't seeing. And I think that's going to be a pretty exciting product as well. But anyway, my whole goal at Ore Creek is just to help those companies that are trying to break into the fleet market, get a little recognition, introduce them to the right people, and test out their theory. You know, is this a product that'll even work in fleet? And so far, we've been pretty lucky doing that.

Look, that sounds exciting. So here's a couple of go-to rapid-fire questions to see how you— these are kind of impromptu. I really haven't prepared for these, but what is your go-to metric for measuring fleet success?

Well, it's going to be different than you as a fleet consultant, right? Like, I don't do the numbers crunching consulting that you do, so I don't have a metric in terms of, you know, how many crashes per million miles or whatever. My metric is how well integrated fleet is to the rest of the organization. So how well does the goals of the fleet department mirror the goals of the organization? And is that fleet professional in tune with and meeting regularly with the leadership of the organization? So if I meet with somebody and they're telling me that they're in front of the C-suite on a regular basis and everybody up through the CEO knows what's going on in fleet, that's a great fleet to me. Whether they're doing everything right or not, I think it's important that they're in tune and in line with the rest of the organization.

We actually call that stakeholder satisfaction or fleet success playbook. And that's— we have to— we measure that to see how engaged they are with their leadership. Um, next question: Is there any one book or mentor that shaped your leadership, your career?

Well, one of each, I guess. Um, I, I had a CEO, uh, when I worked at, um, Amerifleet, uh, and, and he had sort of a book club for us, you know, that the leadership team all would read a book, and then we'd come in early one morning a week and we'd talk about the book and everything. And one of the books we read was Good to Great It's very, you know, well-known leadership book. But the line I like in that book that I think every organization can benefit from is, "Get the right people on the bus, get them in the right seats on the bus, and then decide where you're going to go." And the thing I like about that is, in too many organizations, people only get to apply their talents based on the job description. So I might be a really creative thinker, but I never get to apply that because it's not in my job description at a particular job. And if leaders would just, I mean, you gotta have a job description for HR, but if leaders would learn to identify the talents of their people and then let them unleash those talents, I think teams would be a lot more successful. In terms of a mentor, I mentioned my early years, at Wheels, and my VP of Sales and a good friend was a gentleman by the name of Lou Fisher, uh, who was about 10 years older than me and really acted more as a big brother guiding me through the industry. I credit Lou.

Okay, that's awesome. Any best advice for someone just starting in the fleet business?

Yeah, I, I think I'm gonna echo Sort of what I said about the C-suite. One of the things I've noticed in fleet over the years, and maybe not as much now, but it used to be very true, is fleet managers were great gatekeepers, right? They, as a sales guy, I always felt like I was being stiff-armed a little bit. You know, the VP of something was the decision maker, but the fleet manager never wanted to introduce you to that person. And I get it, you know, if you're not dealing with a good salesperson, you don't want to put your reputation on the line. But at the same time, those fleet managers that I was friends with would complain that they didn't think they were being held in the same esteem as other managers in their company, like they, they weren't getting the same level of credit. And I would try to explain to them that it's, it's that gatekeeping that I think does it. And I would use an example like, let's say there's a tax manager that's on the same level as the fleet manager. And one of the big consulting firms came in and said, you know, we could save you guys $2 million a year in taxes and here's how we would do it. I just picture that tax manager grabbing that person by the arm and marching them right into the CFO's office and saying, you got to listen to this guy. Right. Fleet managers don't typically do that. But what happens, right? The tax manager is getting time in front of the CFO and they get credited for having a great idea. I knew a fleet manager. I won't name him, but very, very, very large fleet, household name kind of company. And when he told me the story of how he became the fleet manager, he actually worked in, I don't know, the Treasury Office or something But he's the guy that came up with the idea of selling their entire corporate headquarters building, which was several blocks of a big downtown, you know, area. They sold it and leased it back and saved millions of dollars for the organization. And as a reward, the CFO said, here's a list of all the jobs that are open. Which one looks interesting to you? You have it. Whatever job you want, take it. And Fleet was open, and he thought that sounded fascinating, and so he took it. So, you know, and it's really sort of a good example, or it makes my point for me, right, is that it was that recognition, being bold and taking the chance of introducing somebody to a decision maker with what you know is a good idea, is, you know, was rewarding for him.

It's awesome. Okay, so after 50 years in the industry, what keeps you excited? What's the biggest trend or disruption that you're watching in the fleet space?

Well, I think you sort of saw it, right? It's safety. I mean, bigger picture, I enjoy helping those companies become successful and, and introducing them to fleet because it's been a great industry for me and very rewarding for me. So that keeps me excited, just making those introductions and finding applications. But the big thing is safety. And I really do believe that the company I'm working with and being able to actually— I mean, this company is 40 employees. If you can picture this, picture a consulting company, 40 employees, 10 of them are PhDs. 20 of them are master's level and several of them working on their PhDs. And then the other 10 are admins. I don't want to diminish their role, but you wouldn't expect them to have advanced degrees for what they do. So this is like a brain trust that's being applied to driver behavior. And I mean, they, they work in other areas as well, but I'm just really excited about what that kind of brainpower and expertise can do when applied to driver safety.

So awesome.

Any last thoughts, Steve, other than I really appreciated the time? This is, uh, you know, my first time on a, on a real live podcast, uh, so I greatly appreciate the opportunity. Um, had a lot of fun with you, and of all people to do it with, I'm, I'm glad it was you.

Well, thank you very much. Appreciate that. Same here. Well, that's going to be it for us on the Fleet Success Show today. As always, make sure you follow us on LinkedIn. And if you have any questions or ideas for future episodes, email us at podcast@rtafleet.com. And we'll see you next time.

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