Episode 212: Why #fleet #education is Booming, and What It Means for the Future #podcast

Welcome back to the Fleet Success Show. I'm your host, Marc Canton. Today I'm talking with Tony Jankovich about the need for education and training and the desire for that from the fleet industry. Let's get into the show.

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Hi everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Fleet Success Show. I am Mark Canton, your host for today. I'm the VP of Product and Consulting here at RTA Fleet, the Fleet Success Company. And I'm joined once again by my good friend and colleague, Tony Yankovich. How you doing, Tony?

I'm doing great, Mark. Happy to be here.

Great to have you, my friend. So wanted to bring you on to talk about a whole bunch of different things. But one topic that's been kind of, you know, sort of seeping up for me, talking to the to Steve and Scott and the other consultants out there and Griffin. And, you know, they're seeing a lot of change in fleet organizations. They're seeing, frankly, turnover being a little bit higher and all that. And I know that's something that you had some experience with recently and some interest in. And I'm just curious, you know, what are you seeing? How is this manifesting itself? What are your takes on it? That sort of a thing. Bring us in.

Sure. Well, you know, I've been in the fleet industry for over 35 years now, and as a full-time fleet consultant the last, oh my gosh, almost 26 years. So I've been doing this quite a while. And what I can say without a doubt is over the last 5 to 7 years, there's been more change in the industry than I've experienced in my 26-year career as a consultant. Um, my gosh, so many different things. Obviously the technology, uh, the push towards electrification, the use of data, you know, analytics, the use of data-driven decision making. So all of that stuff, which is kind of common common knowledge to everyone. But one of the things that I've seen recently is what I call a renewed hunger for fleet knowledge. One of the things that we've talked about quite a bit over the last several years is the technician shortage with the lack of skilled and experienced people on the shop floor, but also the change in leadership. So before, I mean, it was almost a given that you started on the shop floor as a technician. You turned wrenches for 15 years, you moved up to a shop supervisor when there was a vacancy, you worked in that position for another 5, 7 years. And then finally, if the fleet manager ever left, then the shop supervisor was the next logical candidate. And that was kind of the way to go. And people were not given any training. They weren't given any leadership skills. They simply had to learn the role once they got there. And I think the change that I'm experiencing and seeing is that people are wanting to learn. They're wanting to learn now. They're wanting to learn while they're in a position so they can be ready for that next step. Um, so, so we're seeing, I think, probably more interest in certifications from the technicians now than ever before. Really? Yes, we're seeing— I'm, I'm getting more comments and questions when we're on site doing a study that technicians walk up to me, hey, where can I get more information? I'm like, well, you know, the ASE certification test. He goes, no, no, no, I know all that stuff. I already have master certification, I want to learn how to be a supervisor. I want to learn how to be a manager. My goal is not to be a technician my entire life. I want to manage a fleet. And so what we're really trying to do is put them on a path where they can, you know, find out where they can learn about being a leader, being a supervisor, you know, managing more than just the work in their bay. So now they have to learn all the other things that are involved with managing a fleet. And Mark, you and I have talked about it a million times is there's so many business disciplines involved in managing a fleet that, yeah, you know, you're an asset manager, accounting manager, you're a budget manager, you're a finance manager, you're a risk manager, you're a warehouse manager. I mean, and it goes on and on. We could spend a whole podcast just listing—

Operations manager, right? You do staff development. You got to know finance, you got to know accounting, you got to know budgeting, you got to know risk management. I mean, you said it, man. It goes on and on. You got to be a trainer. You got to, you know, be the safety monitor. I mean, it just doesn't stop. We've put together lists on this and we literally have to call it for time because we don't run out of ideas of the disciplines that either the fleet manager better be good at or they better have someone on the team who's really good at it in the overall program. It's a great point.

Well, absolutely. And there's just nowhere to learn that, you know. And so I've seen more interest in, you know, leadership classes, leadership skills. You know, one of the things that we're seeing a lot more of lately is the attendance at these conferences has exploded. I mean, just our RTA Connect this past month, or I guess a couple of weeks ago, record turnout. I mean, the most people that have attended our fleet conference ever. And it's because these people have a thirst for knowledge. They're hungry to learn more. And so I think that's fantastic. And I do see it from the shop floor up. And the other component of this is that so many more people, especially at the fleet manager level, are put in the fleet when they don't have fleet experience. We worked with an organization doing a fleet study. And one of the things that the guy said, he goes, I was hired in to be the fleet manager to help manage this organization. So I'm managing assets, I'm managing resources. I can do that. I don't know fleet, so I need to learn fleet to go along with that. And so we're seeing so many more people trying to learn all these things. And one of the interesting thing is I did a little research on the conferences, but people like NAPA, people like GFX, people like NTEA Work Truck Show, all have had record attendance over the last couple of years. In fact, I think it was NAPA for 3 or 4 years in a row said record-breaking numbers. And so the number of attendees at these conferences of people wanting to learn more, wanting to network with their peers has just gone through the roof.

It's interesting too that that thirst is there because one of the things we talk about is there really is a lack of supply. So I mean, the demand is there and you're starting to see folks, you know, obviously NAFSA does a great job with their CAFM. I think FleetPros does a great job with, you know, that, that sort of intermediary training of getting that tech to be a supervisor, how to be a shop supervisor, some of the things there. And you know, there's several other certifications out there and it's great. I mean, I encourage you to, you know, to take them all. But for whatever reason, man, we get no love. You know, it's like you can go out and you can get degrees in transportation management, transit management, all kinds of adjacent industries, logistics, you know, and they're all great. Go take one of those if you love fleet and get the closest you can and then go do your CAFM or one of the other certifications. But What the heck, man? Why is there no degree yet in fleet management? You know, I don't know the answer to that. I have, I have a theory on it that I just came up with, um, that's terrible. It's— but I'm gonna say it anyway. I hope I don't get myself in trouble here because I wanted your take on it. And if this is bad, you know, you guys, you guys can tell me. But, you know, again, people have heard me say a million times by now, our industry literally makes the world go around. Like, you know, you don't get your food to eat without fleet. Your sick grandma or the person who got hit by the car doesn't get to the hospital without fleet. The fire doesn't get put down without fleet. The bad guy doesn't get arrested without fleet. You name it, right? Like, the military can't defend us, or, you know, like, all of it. Your basic board meeting doesn't happen without fleet. You know, you name it. You can't get your darn Amazon thing delivered to you without fleet. Yeah, I know they got the drones, but trust me, those things are on Fleet vehicles long before the drone ever touches them. The list goes on and on and on. Like, literally, modern society as we know it is utterly dependent on Fleet to exist. And I'm not exaggerating. I really don't think I am. And yet we don't have a degree. And yet we have leadership not understanding the importance of investing in CapEx. And replacement and on and on and on. So here's my theory on the degree and higher ed folks, don't hate me. I worked in higher ed for 20 years. Fordham University, New York City. Go Rams. Love you guys. I miss you tremendously. You're wonderful people. But here's my theory. I think that degree programs are often created with a return on investment in mind. I have no proof of this. This is pure speculation on my part, right? But if I'm a university, I'm thinking, okay, what degrees can people go out there, be fairly well and gainfully employed so that they can then donate back to my university and help me grow my program and my university, right? And nobody's doing that for Fleet. Why is that? Is it because of that history you mentioned of people kind of working their way up? From tech shop? Is it because someone hasn't done the analysis and, you know, are they worried that there's not enough upward movement for fleet managers? Could that be the issue? That, you know, you look at those public works jobs, they come from every other department— plumbing and carpentry and HVAC and all this— and it's very rare. We know a couple of the rare cases of, you know, like our buddy Harold over in Avondale who moved, you know, who moved up through fleet, but you don't You don't see it a lot, right? Like there's not a lot of— especially in government, there's not a lot of good chances given to fleet people, which is a travesty because to your point, their expertise and their broad base of knowledge far outshines almost any industry that you would compare to it. And yet they rarely get that same opportunity for that upward movement. You know, on the corporate side, sometimes you see it. A lot of times fleets are decentralized, so they don't get the recognition. The one industry that you kind of do see fleet folks getting their due, at least generally, is, I think, construction, maybe to a lesser degree utilities. You know, and I know I'm shooting at the hip here, but, you know, I, I'm seeing something and I'm grasping at straws to make sense of what I'm seeing. What are your thoughts there?

You know, from, from personal experience, I think you, you've hit something when you talk about the return on investment for college folks. So I have— my oldest daughter has graduated from college. I have two, um, my two boys are in college right now at the University of Kansas. Go Jayhawks! And then my daughter is, uh, my youngest daughter is a senior in high school. I've had more phone calls and more mail from my oldest daughter's school once she graduated asking for money than ever had during, you know, recruitment, during admissions, during, you know, the 4 years she was at school. So I think that's— there's something to what you're saying, Mark. It's kind of a conspiracy theory, but I think I kind of agree with it. I think I do.

Right. You know, and whether it's malicious or planned, that's not necessarily what I'm saying, but it seems to be playing out. This way, you know. And maybe, uh, you know, maybe we need some really wealthy former fleet managers to come in and grab some school by its ear and say, hey, go invest in fleet, go start a fleet program. Um, could you imagine? Because most of us fell in— yeah, that would be cool.

I was just saying, you know how, how interesting that would be? The, the type of people that I think you would show— that would show interest in that, you know. I'm, and I'm trying to think, what is the closest thing out there? I mean, yeah, there's some logistics coursework and there's some asset management stuff and there's some finance stuff and there's some general business stuff, but there's nothing that ties it all together. And that's what a fleet manager is when all of those things are tied together. And if we could— maybe that's what RTA should do, Mark. We should start a fleet manager college or school.

There we go. Fleet University. Fleet University. I'm telling you, man, we're doing it one of these days.

That's right.

One of these days when we got money coming out of our ears.

That would be awesome.

Yeah, that'd be cool. But we need it. It would be really cool. Fordham, come on, do it. I'm telling you, there's plenty of work there. And the funny part about that is too, is, you know, I do know from my time, you know, at Fordham, both also professionally and personally, you know, there, there is a market for, um, sort of like untapped potential and untapped, um, sort of major. So here's what I mean by that, right? Like, I remember when I was graduating Fordham, uh, and I was figuring it out. At this point, I knew I liked fleet and I knew I liked transportation. I was doing both. And I actually got recruited, you know, I was a philosophy major and it was like, well, what are you going to do with that, right? Because it was the most practical degree you could possibly take. And it turns out there was like 3 things that people did with philosophy majors. One was study more philosophy and become a philosophy professor. The other was try to go to law school. And the third was completely change your career, take something else and go do that in graduate school. Right. Which is, by the way, what I ended up doing. I got an MBA. But at that time, you know, the FedExes of the world and the DHLs and UPSs of the world, they had these, these really cool management track hiring programs. I don't know if they're still out there or not. I have no idea. But they were looking for, how do I get my hands on talent? And obviously they didn't want to compete with, with finance for finance majors, right? That sort of a thing. Uh, and, and they looked for, you know, you know, that kind of thing. And they were really interested in math majors and philosophy majors because of the logic involved with doing really good logistics and the efficiency associated with operations management, you know, that sort of a thing. Turns out philosophy majors get— have really good, uh, um acceptance rates in grad schools and all that other stuff too. So, so it's cool. So my point is, like, you know, we've been talking a lot about getting more young folks into the profession, getting more talent in, you know. Do we, do we get the folks who maybe college isn't right for in on the technician skill stuff? And I think all of that is legitimate and true. I'm just wondering if we need to think next level about it, right? Like, you know, there's got to be a ton of art history majors who graduated 4 years and went, oh crap, now what do I do? I really don't want to pour coffee for the rest of it.

Exactly.

And, you know, where are those untapped, you know, talent pools in, in any area, whether it's college or school, you know, whatever it may be, and try to figure that out and figure out how can we attract them to the industry, you know, that sort of—

it's almost like there's this, this great divide, you know. You've got your traditional, you know, higher education, college degree programs, and then you have the technical schools, which are either a 2 or 4-year technical degree and trades degree. Somehow we need to merge those and consolidate those together because the people in those technical schools could certainly benefit from coursework in finance and logistics and asset management. And so there's a lot of, I think, collaboration that could be done between those type of organizations. Or maybe it's a 2+2 program where you go 2 years and you get your technical expertise in the trade school. And then you go 2 more years and get, whether it be an associate's degree or something like that, in a more traditional college setting. I think there's some type of a program that would meld both of those together that would be very effective.

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Yeah, and we need it now, right? Like, I don't know if you've been talking with the guys, but man, you know, Steve and Scott, and they've been— so many of their projects are, you know, the reason the project exists is because there's been so much turnover in the organization. And to your point, many of the folks coming over have never seen or touched Fleet a day in their life, and they're making the most of it. Um, you know, we talked for many years, you know, Paul Lauria used to spout about the, uh, the perfect storm was coming. Steve was certainly on that bag. He still is. Steve will tell you we're in it now, and I don't think he's wrong. And the idea was, hey, we got all the boomers leaving, we don't have the influx of talent coming, it's going to hit. I think, I think we all thought it would be hitting like last year, this year. I saw some studies, and I remember reading in a study in '18 that suggested that there would be more technician positions than there were technicians by 2024. And then COVID happened and it accelerated all of that. And so the perfect storm was here and it was on us before we had a chance to really wake up to it, let's say. And so it accelerated all of that. People left. And then I remember around 2022, you had all these people who had already retired and it was like Tony Montana, every time I try to get out, they keep pulling me back in. You know, they couldn't retire. We wouldn't let them retire, you know. No, no, no, we kept making the incentives like, no, no, you got to fleet manage here for another 6 months or a couple years or until you train a mentor, you know, a mentee or something like that. I, I, it just, it just went on and on. But it can— but there's a part of it that feels like we're— I don't want to say house of cards, but it feels like we're holding the darn thing together with duct tape and string and yarn, you know. Like, we need action now. You know, definitely to your point that maybe that explains why all the, you know, interest in the conferences and the demand for more education and, and so forth and so on.

And I think another part of this is the fact that not only do we have the perfect storm with all the, uh, the baby boomers exiting the workforce, and, um, but you know, there's been a lot of studies on the duration of time that a person in a specific generation stays in a job. So baby boomers On average, they stay in a job for 15 years. So, you know, you hire a technician, you can plan on them being there for a long time. You know, and then they get promoted, guess what? They're going to be there for a lot longer. So you didn't have that turnover with the older generations. And then the Gen X, their turnover is about every 5 years. The millennials turnover about every 2 years, they're switching positions or jobs.

Yeah, and it's still the number.

It's scary, man. And you know, the Gen Z, there's not enough data out there on them yet, but I don't like where this trend is going. So we're going to need to do something. And, and yeah, you know, and it's, it's not just the retirements that we now need to worry about. It's just people that, you know, I'm going to do this, I'm going to turn wrenches for 2 or 3 years, then I'm going to go try something else. And that's the way these younger generations do. If they're not being mentored and they don't feel valued and they're not being trained and they're not being upskilled, then they start looking around. And they're not, you know, just because they're a technician doesn't mean they're going to just move to another shop. They might move industries completely. And that's what we're seeing a lot of. So they're changing trades, they're changing whatever, they're going back to school. So there's been a lot of change with the rapid leaving of the industry within the younger generation.

That's a great point, man. If that, you know, that's the call for having a map, right? Having a career growth plan for the people you hire is so important. And some people are going to have to leave, right? There's not a spot for everyone. There's less seats as you move up the ladder. But having that ability to, you know, boy, it would be better to have them bounce around within my organization than constantly— than lose institutional knowledge constantly and having to replace it. So, you know, that's a really good point, which then brings us back to, you know, that other part, which is, hey, you want upward movement, you get to fleet manager. I mean, what would be your advice? You know, hey, I've been a fleet manager, I've established myself, I've got a good reputation, I know my stuff. I want that next thing, but I don't know if I want to go and learn a new trade and change careers. It's, it's tough. I mean, you and I have been fortunate. Many of our friends and colleagues have. We've transitioned to, you know, consulting. I've transitioned here to software, you know, and you see that sort of a thing. But we seem to be the exception. You know, what's out there? What do— is it just go get a bigger fleet? I think that's Part of it, I don't know. I don't know the answer. I got asked this question by a good friend, an accomplished fleet manager, you know, someone who, if I mentioned the name, everyone in the industry would know. And, you know, I kind of spouted off the ideas I just said to you and then I was at a blank. What do you think? What are your thoughts?

I think you're spot on. I think, you know, we always talk about the career ladder, the career path of the technician, but we don't really talk about it once you've reached the pinnacle and once you've reached that fleet manager position, because like you said, what's next? Well, okay. I can go manage a bigger fleet, or I'm going to go manage a more complex fleet, maybe a national fleet or something like that. But that's it. You're still doing the same thing, just with a different number of vehicles. So there's not a lot of opportunities beyond that. And like you said, we've been fortunate, but the consulting gig is not for everybody. I mean, we've seen how many people dip their toe in and realize that, ooh, it's not what I thought it was.

It doesn't work.

Yeah, good quote. That's not an easy road to hoe either. I don't know, there's not a lot out there for them unless they're, you know, want to change positions.

I mean, there's certainly things adjacent, like you said about the consulting, it isn't for everyone. But, you know, training is another, I think, really good example of things you can do. You can definitely do training. You can definitely work in sort of the vendor side of it and somehow be in a customer-facing role, uh, is always there. But I do think it's— I think, I think for one, for one thing, one piece of advice I will say is If you're truly interested in sort of— if it's about income or if it's about growing your career and getting to that next thing, you have to be willing to engage in the national job marketplace. You're going to struggle to do this if you're only willing to stay local, right? So that's one piece of advice. Um, you got to engage the full thing, right? That's the only way you're going to see enough opportunities and, and kind of move around enough. Now don't get me wrong, you can start local, right? Like I'm in a small, you know, I'm a tech, I'm a supervisor, maybe at a decent-sized city or village or town. And then I become the fleet manager of a small town and then a medium-sized one and then a city and then a big city and, you know, and then a state. And then what?

Right.

A bigger state. You know, that sort of thing. Corporate, you know, you know, jump to corporate. I mean, it sounds like we're talking about Steve's career here, but But that's basically what he did, right? I think he went from like really like local and transit to I think it was West Jordan and, and kind of worked his way bigger and bigger. Republic Coke, etc., etc. That, that really is the path, folks. And Tony's right. It's the same thing with more assets. But there are new challenges when you, you know, there's a big difference between managing a 300-asset fleet and a 3,000-asset fleet and a 30,000-asset fleet. Those are, those are major jumps. And the things that you tend to be concerned with, the folks you're interacting with, it changes pretty dramatically. So I still think there's plenty of challenge there for those who are seeking a challenge. But, you know, jumping over, you know, doing the, you know, let's say the public works thing, you know, it's doable, but you just don't see it very often. It's an interesting thing.

Correct. And, you know, one of the things that I like to tell people is, you know, I think it's most important to hire the right person, not the right resume. So some of these people that are fleet managers are just phenomenal. I mean, they get it, they grasp everything, and they're good leaders and they're good people and they're good managers, good stewards of resources. And those people shouldn't be limited just because their resume says Fleet, Fleet, Fleet, Fleet, Fleet.

Right. That's a great call. Great call. So we got to get the world to listen. Maybe we need to call this the Success Podcast for all people who have ever been associated with Fleet. So that we can get more people listening and giving our Fleet friends chances in other areas. That's right. But I just want to get back and make sure we've covered, you know, you were talking about this, this deep desire that you're seeing for people to get educated. You talked about attendance at the conferences. Are you seeing more inquiries around training? Like, I know, I know you did a big training thing. You sent the guys out to Hawaii for some— like, are you seeing that? Are you feeling that in the marketplace? Does that make sense what I'm asking?

Absolutely, Mark. In fact, one of the— So old school consultant, Tony, they hired us, we came in, looked at their operation, gave them recommendations, and left. Now what we're seeing is there's more engagement after the fact. Not only do they want us to help them implement some of these recommendations because they don't have the resources or the experience or knowledge to do it, but they want us to help mentor and train them. So some of the services that we're providing are coaching and fleet mentoring, where we will guarantee or offer X number of hours per week, per month, per year to a fleet organization and says, we can come in and do whatever. We can train the fleet manager, we can train the parts specialist, we can train the technicians on any level of different things. And so we've seen a lot more engagements in that area. And, you know, the one you kind of referred to is there was an organization in Hawaii, and Hawaii has a requirement that the state of Hawaii has requirement that in order to do your state inspections, you have to be an ASE certified technician. And they're— what do they call a single— oh my gosh, you have to help me out with a single source of failure. Single point of failure.

Single point of failure.

They had one technician that was ASE certified that could do those annual inspections. That person left. Yeah. Took a position somewhere else. And now they didn't have anyone to do the certification testing. And so what we did, we sent our folks out And we actually trained their entire mechanic staff on their light-duty side of the house of how to, you know, take and understand and learn the ASC A-Series test. So we actually spent a week on site, Steve and Scott did, and they trained those technicians. And the pre-score and post-score after the training was phenomenal. Their increase in testing ability and results was fantastic. And so, you know, that's just another another thing that, that we're doing now, and that's not something that we did, you know, even 10 years, 15 years ago.

Right, right. Because you would have expected either the fleet program to provide that or folks to get hired. I mean, 15 years ago, folks were getting hired, you would see ASE requirements on resume, you know, on job postings. Now that's a little bit of a pipe dream. It's more like, yeah, get hired and we'll help you get there. Yeah, it's, you know, that's interesting. Um, and, and so there's, you know, so, and there's also really good opportunities, by the way, just some super quick tips, right, for people to get trained. You know, your needs training, let's say it's technical training for you, you know, get, get it on your specs, right? You're ordering a new truck, new piece of equipment, require that the training's in the specs there. Your local parts stores oftentimes will, you know, NAPA's very good about giving training. What are some other tips? You know, you mentioned get to the conferences, get educated there. We always talk about the certification programs. Any other thoughts? What, what, what, you know, again, hire us, call Tony. Hey, you know, we can customize a training for you, whatever it is that you may need, whether it's transitioning mechanics to supervisors, supervisors to fleet managers, like you mentioned. What are the thoughts you have around that? What people who are like, they know they need this, you know, how can they get their hands on what they need?

And I think the beauty of today is, I mean, there are so many free webinars out there. You know, people like J.J. Keller, they have free webinars every— almost every week about, you know, DOT compliance, driver regulations, safety inspections. So they have all kinds of free training. Usually lasts an hour or so when they put it on. So there's all kinds of free stuff out there. The other thing that, that I would say to do is network with your peers. I mean, you know, if, if you're a trucking company, find a nearby trucking company that maybe is not your competitor, direct competitor, but find out what they're doing. Find out, you know, it— maybe do some cross-training, or, you know, bring in, bring them, bring two organizations together and then bring in a trainer so you can split the cost even, you know, spread the cost.

That's a great thought.

So I think there's a lot of creative ways to go about getting your training, and I just think people need to make it a priority.

Get out of the box, right?

Exactly.

Yeah, good call, Tony. It is always a pleasure talking with you, my friend. Thank you so much for taking the time. Uh, I think we're gonna have to call that a show.

All right, all right. Well, thanks for having me, Mark.

It's always a pleasure, my friend. Have a good one. Take care, everybody.

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