Preety Kumar: Disability Advocate and Business Leader Discusses Commitment to Accessible Websites for All People with Disabilities

At Highmark Health, we believe what makes us unique makes us better. Our differences broaden our perspectives and foster a variety of skills to complement each other, creating a stronger and more vibrant workforce. It's this belief that earned us recognition as the best place to work for the 10th year for individuals with disabilities in a survey by the American Association of People with Disabilities and Disability:IN. We'll continue to celebrate and benefit from the inclusion of all people. To find out more, visit highmarkhealth.org. Welcome to Disability Matters with your host, Joyce Bender. All comments, views, and opinions expressed on the show are solely those of the host, guests, and callers. Now the host of Disability Matters, here's Joyce Bender.

Hi everyone, Joyce Bender with Disability Matters. I hope you're all having A great day, and you know, thank you for notes from listeners, from comments, from I have great listeners. You know, we are the show. Do you know that? We are the show only weekly show with every week on Tuesday. Disability rights news on the half hour, in addition to fabulous guests such as our guest today. So thank you, all of you. And to those of you around the world, what can I say? Yes, I've been saying this every week. Singapore, most listeners after the United States.

Wow.

And you know what? It keeps getting bigger. I mean, that is tremendous. What, you know, thank you. That's all I can say is thank you and continue spreading the news because it's just fantastic. And I have to mention that in the top 10 out of these 150 shows with countries with listeners, Vietnam Vietnam has moved up to number 7. I mean, that is amazing. You know, we really are in Asia. You know, we India, Singapore, Taiwan, Japan, and that just makes me so happy. But you know, every show I highlight someone. A country with one listener, only one. And today that would be Angola. So I have one listener in Angola, one. So you know what I have to say to you? One person can make a difference. One. Whoever you are, keep spreading the news. Tell other people about this show and about disability rights, because this show is all about dignity for people with disabilities. And a special shout out to Yoshiko Dart. Yoshiko, I will always do this. I've done this for years and years. Not only is Yoshiko a great leader, and by the way, Yoshiko, Thank you. I just read a note you sent me very, very long ago and had Justin's name on it also. Yoshiko is the widow of the great Justin Dart. And I just think the world of her. And she has been a big supporter of Bender Consulting and the Bender Leadership Academy, Lead On Bender Leadership Academy. So thank you so much, Yoshiko, and hi, Mark, for being the sponsor of this show once again, helping me change lives. And if you go to Spotify or Apple or Amazon or benderconsult.com, you can hear any of the old shows. And I've been on 22 years. So if you go back, To January, for example, January of last year, you'll hear the CEO, David Holmberg. You'll hear the COO, Karen Hanlon. You'll hear Deb Wright, the CEO of Allegheny Health Network, Mark Sevko. Because we call January Highmark Power Month. But I want you to listen to their belief about Working with me and hiring people with disabilities. It's just, well, too bad it's rare. Isn't that a shame? Because even today, 70% of people with disabilities are still not counted in the workforce. And you know, I tell people all the time, when I started 31 years ago, after a couple years, this is what I used to say. I would say, You know what? Someday I'm going to be, you know, taken care of. There'll be many of me in the United States, and then I'll move on to India. And little did I know that right here in the United States, we would still have this high unemployment. So with that, I have to talk to you about our guest today. Our guest, Preeti Kumar, the CEO and founder of Deque. First of all, she's like a rock star. Okay, if you're in my world of disability, you know who Preeti Kumar is. And really, that's the only word I can think of. Well, many words: champion, star, leader. And I'm happy to say friend, but I just think so highly of Preeti. She is like an icon, especially in the accessibility world. In accessibility, like, if you don't know who Preeti Kumar is, there's something wrong with you because everyone knows who she is. She's a pioneer. And Preeti, as you can see, we have listeners around the world. So first, thank you and welcome.

Thank you.

to the show, Preeti.

Thank you, Joyce, and thank you for the very kind introduction. I think it makes it easy to actually be a star when you're surrounded by people who really believe in the power of one, as you illustrated in your introduction. So it's the company that we keep.

Isn't that the truth? That's why I tell my young people with disabilities when I teach a class, I say, show me your Friends, I'll show you your future because who you are with, positive or negative, has an impact on you. And of course, you are positive. And Preeti, as you just heard, I bet you're surprised to hear all these listeners we have around the world. And every time I have someone on, they say, oh, they wanted to know who is that person. I wanted to know more about that person. So let's hear your journey, Preeti. Sure.

So the journey is pretty simple, Joyce. I think a lot of us accidentally fall into things that we end up feeling is the purpose of our life. And my story is Kind of like that. I was working at a telecommunications firm, working on the broadband product that they had, and they decided to put it on the shelf because it was premature, early to market. And that made me branch out on my own. And I was extremely lucky that I got to work for an amazing woman. It's Incredible what women can do. You know, you know this well, Joyce. And this woman was a strong leader of the State Highway Administration in Maryland. And Melissa was a really wonderful person who said to me, this web, you know, this internet is becoming a thing. And this was in 1999, early 2000s. So it's becoming important. And there's this thing called Section 508, you know, and I want to make sure that we are going to be the leaders in the state of Maryland on the internet, and we are going to include everybody. What an inspirational woman. And she said, well, I like the work that you've done with us for a couple of months. but I want you to write our web standards. So I took on that task, and I learned a lot. And of course, when I got into Section 508, this was the early days. I became vice chair of the committee. By being involved, I started writing and contributing to the first Web Content Accessibility Guidelines standards. But Joyce, everything came together when I realized that this is going to become my, my mission in life. Because when I was a child, my mother used to take me to the School of the Blind every 2 weeks to volunteer. And what I saw there is people boxed in because of their physical limitations. And I could never understand why they were relegated to tasks like candle making, which was the default career they would get into. And I didn't understand that. And I think It came back to me and I realized that the internet is supposed to be the greatest equalizer of knowledge since the printing press. And I could not tolerate the thought of people with disabilities getting left behind. So that's how I got started.

Wow.

Because then you started this unbelievably successful company, DQ. And I even remember, I remember in the early days, I remember. And by the way, Preeti was also a friend of Mary Brocker, who you all know I lost 5 years ago and won't get over it. But she also would tell me all the time about Preeti, and she was right about Preeti. So I always tell her. The other day when we were in a conference that pretty Mary is with us and said, okay, that's enough. You two need to get it together now. So here we are. Here we are together. And I just want to say, in my career, we have never publicly endorsed and partnered with a company for, you know, and I am announcing that I am endorsing and am going to partner with DQ. And that is the only company I will be—

What is the only one?

A lot of these companies, I, I don't believe they really get it, that they really have that heart and passion. But I know you do, Preeti. I just want to tell everyone, we had a young man, blind, with an incredible academic background that was laid off on, unfortunately, can you believe it, Good Friday. And he, he was looking, he's so talented. And do you know, one phone call to Preeti, one, and she got the ball rolling, which she is one that cares about the least of these. So it's an honor to work with Preeti. So Preeti—

Likewise, Joyce. And I have to tell you, Mary would have said to us, because she said, she would have said, stop doing these Hollywood lunches, right?

Yeah, that's right.

Yes.

Which we are doing.

And thank you for the— thank you for the partnership and endorsement, Joyce. Coming from someone like you, it means the world. Thank you.

Well, equal, equal thoughts. But let's talk about Deque, such a successful company. Could you tell all of our listeners what you do at Deque and what some of your products and services are?

Sure. So Joyce, Deque is the leader in digital accessibility testing, and we help organizations become and stay accessible with help provided by our axe platform, our wonderful experts, which includes Chris, and excellent training via instructor-led or Deque University or our AI Axe assistant. So our whole goal is to make companies self-sufficient and have absolutely no reason to not embrace So you are global, correct? Well, we do have an office in the US, Amsterdam, and India, but we are largely a remote-first organization, Joyce, and we have employees all across the world. Including your favorite country, Canada, and Singapore, where you have your second largest listener base for this show.

Yeah, that is just so exciting. So would you say then, is your main service providing accessibility, helping companies become accessible? Would you say that's your main service?

Is that— well, service is a broad term, I think, the way that you're using it, Joyce, if I'm understanding it right. But we— if you have a website, if you have a mobile application, if you have digital documents, if you have a kiosk, and you have to make it accessible to people with disabilities to be able to use digital technology like you and I do every day of our lives, right? You have to make sure the underlying source code is compatible with these universally accepted guidelines, the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, or the equivalent of that for the other technologies. And we actually have testing tools and experts that can help you get started in this journey and help you mature till you're confident you can bring it into your own shop and do it yourself with our products. which is called the axe-platform. And I think you must have maybe heard about the axe-core rule engine, Joyce?

Yes. But would you tell everyone else about that?

Absolutely. Our axe-core rule engine is an open-source rule engine that has just Surpassed 5 billion downloads. That's— Wow.

My goodness. Are you kidding? Wow. Oh my goodness. That's extraordinary. Yes.

And it's up from between—

I think that's been on your website. 5 billion. And the numbers keep going.

Yes.

Yes. Wow.

So, and this is because we have given the world a way to have objective measurement of where they are with accessibility, with digital accessibility.

Wow, that is wonderful. But just as you said, you know, when I was at the White House once, Eve Hill was speaking, who is an international mental health advisor, but now she's the chair of the board of Bazelon Center on Mental Health Law. Which I'm on that board. But when she was with the Department of Justice during President Obama's administration, she said, I'll never forget it, if you want to hire people with disabilities and you say that's important to you, how are you going to do that if I can't get in the door?

Oh, yes. I know Eve extremely well, and I have such immense respect for her. And she is absolutely right. You know, most career portals, most career websites where job applicants apply are largely inaccessible. In fact, you might have seen the WebAIM report. We went from 5 years of, 4 to 5 years of progressing in accessibility in actually taking a step back last year.

Yeah.

Terrible.

Yes.

That's terrible. Because say, for example, you go to a company, and yes, the front page is accessible, but now you want to apply on the career page for a job, and it's not accessible. Well, then you're done. How are you going to do that? What I mean is the whole site has to be accessible for the employees, not just the front page.

Well, yes. And frankly, Joyce, I think you're hitting on a very good problem. It's not just your front door. It's the experience, the entire experience, but it's also what good is hiring somebody with a disability because they're not token employees. They're actually the most loyal, hardworking contributors that you will ever find. And of course, no generalizations, right? But Largely speaking, they're motivated. And so you have to make the technology they use on a day-to-day basis after they get the job accessible as well.

Yes, that's right. You know, Jenny Lay-Flurrie, who we both know well, when she was the chief— has been moved up, but was Chief Accessibility Officer at Microsoft and now is in a more senior role.

Yeah.

But she used to say to me, you know, Joyce, when you talk to someone and, and you ask them if they're accessible and they say, I'm pretty sure we are, right away you know they're not. They say, I'm pretty sure they are, they're not. And, you know, you really need an expert like Deque to know, do an audit, Make sure you're doing everything correctly so that you don't have— terrible to have employees there that can't work because it's not accessible or it puts them behind. So, you know, you don't want that. You don't want that to happen. Well, Preeti, with what you just said—

Yeah.

About accessibility going backwards last year.

Mm-hmm.

But is there still a need for accessibility? Oh, world.

Joyce, absolutely. In fact, this is an incredible time to be working in digital accessibility from a global perspective. The level of momentum and urgency that we are seeing right now is unlike anything that I've ever seen before in my 20 6 and a half years of doing this. From every corner of the world, just like you were citing all the parts of the world that are— that you're getting listeners from, right? We too are seeing new stories emerge. We are seeing regulatory expansion. We are seeing technological innovation. And we are seeing some groundbreaking legal decisions. So I think there are major advancements in accessibility right now happening seemingly every month.

Mm-hmm.

And the European Accessibility Act, EAA, as we call it, is a very hot topic. Now it's in year 2 of enforcement. And it is— I was just in Europe for a month having AxeCon Minis, and in 100 degrees, it was a lot of fun. A lot of motivated people showed up.

Wow.

But it is in the second year of enforcement, EAA, and the regulators are getting extremely serious about enforcing it. And so it is gaining momentum. And as you know, Canada, a country I love as well, has the Accessible Canada Act or ACA, which also has some upcoming deadlines. I think the Australian Human Rights Commission recently affirmed that Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.2 Level A and AA are going to be applicable. Then even countries like India, the Securities and Exchange Board of India, SEBI, is now enforcing the information communication technology accessibility requirements for digital financial services. And the list goes on and on. All helping folks like you, me, are driving this action, like the regulators, like Eve Hill. They're all driving this action.

Yes. And boy, she is awesome, Eve. Yes.

And maybe, Joyce, can I add one more thing?

Yes.

So, you know, this is all the regulations, all the grassroots people who never stop working for digital accessibility, the power of one. But from a technology perspective, AI and automation bring another tailwind to digital accessibility testing. We all know, it's a fact, AI has its limitations, and many folks out there are thinking that they can prompt their way into an accessible result without doing any real testing and validation. But the reality is that with the right guidance, with the right guardrails, AI and automation is our biggest opportunity to keep pace with the new speed of development. And this is the fastest and most efficient path towards making the web a more accessible place. This, in my opinion, also makes room for experts like, you know, our Chief Information Accessibility Officer, Glenda, SIMs or people like Chris that we just hired on your recommendation, Joyce, to really focus on more complex issues that automation cannot handle today. And of course, this automation is also critical because the volume of code being generated via wipe coding The, the is getting to be so immense. There's no other way to keep up, really. So yeah, regulation and AI, 2 very important facts.

Yes, right. And I tell everyone, you know, AI is here.

Yeah.

And you are gonna see it just keep being here, but moving. I mean, it's amazing how fast Things are changing. And hopefully it will help us in healthcare. Because, you know, it's becoming so predictive that who knows, it may be able to help cure, you know, find a cure for some horrible diseases. So how about the university? I love the concept of the university. Why don't you tell everyone about that? I think it's so exciting.

Oh, well, thank you. So Deque University, Dr. Paul Bowman is the father of that, and he was one of the founders of a nonprofit called WebAIM. And Deque University is the largest knowledge base in the digital accessibility domain.

Okay.

And it's, Joyce, it's equally consumable by humans or by AI agents. And we've been working on that since 2018. And would you believe it if I told you that Deque University has over 200,000 subscribers today?

Wow. Wow.

And the piece that I'm most proud about is we've also granted 8,000 scholarships to people with disabilities, awarding full free access to the course catalog to help pursue careers in digital accessibility testing.

And thank you. I think that is wonderful. I do. You know, once again, you are remembering the least of these. So that is, uh, that is just wonderful. Well, Greedy, I wanted to ask you a question. You know, in addition to the tech— technicians, uh, at your company, when you hire leaders, Hmm. people that are at the level, but maybe one level beneath you or two levels beneath you, but What do you look for? What do you look for? What do you think you would look for that you believe, oh, they would make a good leader here at Deque, I'm going to hire them?

Joyce, that's a great question. I wonder if I don't reflect on that enough. So I'm glad you're making me reflect. You know, internally within Deque, we have a few core values that we base a lot of our hiring decisions on innovation with results that matter, deliver what you promise, a can-do attitude, open, direct, and respectful communications. We care deeply and we practice humility. And I think when you get these core values in a human being, you don't get them You know, core values are something that you live at work and outside of work, right? So when that happens, I think the leadership trait that has emerged from somebody who's got all these core values that I think is really important at Deque and important to me is just simple curiosity. It's curiosity.

Yes, that's right. Curiosity. Yes. And humility. You know, humility.

Yes.

So important. So important. Servant leadership. So do you hire a lot of people experienced or are the majority— I'm talking now about in executive roles. Or for the majority of people, you're brought into the company and you grow and develop, and then they move up?

That's a great question as well. So I will tell you that it's a combination. We look for the best talent in the world, and sometimes we have that talent that we can develop internally, and sometimes we need the experience, the, you know, the people who've lived through the experience before, and we bring those in. But I will tell you, again, another leadership trait that I really look for is learn, because every organization is unique. Every organization is unique. And, you know, something that worked somewhere else may not work at Deque. So you have to actually get to know the culture, get to know the a company before you can do things or direct people. And I think we look for that humility, that curiosity, so that that can work even if you bring in somebody from outside. We do have wonderful people at Deque who are far better than me and more patient than me, who are fantastic at grooming people. In fact, we have a product manager, a director-level person who's brilliant. And he reminded me recently that he came, he joined Deque as an intern, you know.

Wow.

Yeah, that's wonderful. Isn't that tremendous? Well, Preeti, it is time for our news break today. Mathis on the mic. With our own Jennifer Mathis, who we love so much. Jennifer, welcome.

Hi, thank you.

So what's our news for the— well, I know there's all kinds of scary news, so what's our news today?

Indeed. So I thought that it would be worth mentioning, um, What the Department of Labor has done with Section 503 of the Rehabilitation Act. As some of your listeners may know, Section 503 is a part of the Rehab Act that applies to federal contractors, people that do business with the federal government, and it requires not only that federal contractors not discriminate against people with disabilities, but also that they engage in affirmative efforts to employ people with disabilities. And so because the federal contractor workforce is such a large number of people, it's about a quarter of the national workforce, this has always been such a critically important law and protection for people with disabilities, and it has really spurred many efforts to employ and retain people with disabilities. And so during the Obama administration, there was an update to the regulations implementing Section 503, and for the first time, the Department of Labor put in some very important requirements in there that helped employers, federal contractors, measure the effectiveness of their affirmative action efforts to employ people with disabilities. So they had a utilization goal, an aspirational goal, that essentially 7% of the workforce be people with disabilities. Now, if Contractors didn't meet that goal, that didn't mean that they lost their contracts or anything like that, but it was a way to measure the success of the affirmative action efforts. And so there was also an analysis that contractors had to do around that goal. So if they didn't meet the goal, then they had to look at what they What the barriers were to employing people with disabilities and indicate some steps that they were taking to overcome those barriers. And so that just provided a way, a yardstick, a way to measure what you're doing for affirmative action to employ people with disabilities and whether it's working or not. And if it's not, to then do something else. And there were also some very basic data collection efforts around that the regulations required around how many people with disabilities were hired versus how many people overall were hired and the number of jobs available, etc. And there was also a requirement that contractors give people with disabilities, applicants with disabilities, the— and employees the opportunity to self-identify, to say that they had a disability. They didn't have to, but they had the opportunity to do that because it helps contractors to know if they have people with disabilities, then they can measure the success of their affirmative action efforts. So last year, the Department of Labor— we talked about it on the news segment in this show— had proposed getting rid of all of those requirements, and they did a proposed rule. Many people in the disability community commented on that rule. They now, last Friday, issued— published in the Federal Register a final rule getting rid of all of those requirements, getting rid of the utilization goal of 7%, getting rid of the analysis So, you know, the goal was to look at the analysis that would go along with that goal, to look at, you know, whether— what the barriers were to meeting that goal and what steps the contractor might take then to overcome the barriers, getting rid of the data collection and getting rid of the requirement to give people the opportunity to self-identify as people with disabilities. Is it takes any teeth out of the— well, I mean, teeth is probably not even the correct word. This was an aspirational goal to begin with. It was really a measure, a way to meaningfully measure affirmative action efforts and their success. And so now, By taking all of those things away that provided some structure, some meaning to this analysis, the federal government has effectively made the analysis probably meaningless because there, there's no numbers anymore that contractors are supposed to look at. There's no baseline, there's no measure, there's no way to meaningfully look at whether your affirmative action efforts are having success or not. And in fact, the, the new regulation specifically says you don't have to use any quantitative data. You don't have to use any numbers. So who measures success without looking at any numbers? It's, it's a little bit difficult. It's sort of And they said that, you know, contractors can decide for themselves what works for them, what kind of analysis they want to do. So basically, the federal government is saying, you do you, we don't care anymore. And I mean, that's essentially the message that is sent by this new rule. So very distressing. And, you know, in terms of what is this is going to look like going forward. My hope would be that certainly in another administration, there would be an effort to return to something that made more sense and that imposed once again some structure on this analysis. But that is where we are right now. That may also explain why the federal government had proposed moving enforcement of Section 503 from the Department of Labor to the EEOC, and which has no capacity right now to take on the extra work. And in fact, the EEOC wasn't going to get more funding, it was going to get less funding, but somehow do this work involving a very large number of contractors. But I suppose now maybe this explains— The thinking behind that is that there wasn't really going to be much there there to 503 enforcement anymore by the federal government. So that's where we are.

You know what else is going to happen with all that? What is that, Section 8? Is that what it's called? What is that in the government that—

Oh, yes. Yeah, Schedule A.

Yeah. No, no, the other one. The one where you can, you have set-asides. I think it's called 8. Is that it? Or Section 8?

Oh, oh, oh, yes. The minority business contract.

Yes, that. That. Yeah. I will not be surprised then if disability is also out of that. You know, like how, see, it's like a rolling ball. It just keeps impacting so many people. But now a company could say, because there's a trillion-dollar industry out there of disability monies, a company could say, oh, we hire a lot of people with disabilities and we're very disability-friendly, and they're not. But like, how would you know? There's no count. There's no anything.

Correct.

Well, Jennifer, here's my answer. We got to keep moving forward.

Indeed.

People with disabilities listening, Listen to me. I am still hiring people. Creedy's still hiring people. We are still moving forward. And the worst thing you can do is stop and stand still, or you've let everyone else win. You've got to keep moving forward. And you have people like Bazelon with, uh, with Jennifer, who is like constantly in the news media, it seems. You have people like her who fight the fight for disability rights. So we're just going to all have to communicate, all silos down.

Yep.

And work together. But keep us up to date with how this impacts.

I will do.

Okay. Thanks, Jennifer.

Thank you.

All right.

Bye-bye. Bye-bye.

Deep breath.

Oh my goodness. Well, there's only one thing. This is terrible to say, but I will say it. You know, this 7% aspirational goal? Guess what? We never hit it anyway. So it's not going to be that different. I mean, for people with disabilities.

So we just have to keep I think that the piece that is interesting is that right now things are getting so easy to measure with AI, and you— everybody knows you can't manage what you cannot measure. So this seems very illogical, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's why you and I have to keep fighting the fight, right, Preeti?

We have to We do. We do.

Yes. Uh, Preeti, how about you? You're so, uh, successful, and yet you're so kind and great leadership skills. But if you had to name one thing, a trait, whether it's from humility to gratitude to whatever, what would you say you believe help make you successful?

It's funny. Other people would say that I can never stick to one thing or I can never take one thing. That's maybe what made me successful. But I, I think my passion for the mission has made it so that I never Mm-hmm. Many times when I could have thrown in the towel, I just never could imagine a world that excluded people with disabilities from the digital world and where society was fulfilling all of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. So I guess to me it was the opposite of segregation, true integration, independence, and self-determination. So the trait that— the single trait, if I had to choose one trait, would be resilience because of the belief in Deque's mission.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to be resilient, and like right now, but you always have been. You're right. Oh, I can relate to that, Preeti. I so can relate to that. But you're also kind. And caring, but you know there's that business part, that business part where you just have to keep moving, and you can't keep moving without being resilient. So, Pretty, you have like so many. I mean, you could be a book. You know that? You have such a great story. You do. Who would you say impacted you the most? Like, who is your role model and why?

Oh, that's easy. Joyce, my role model was my mother, and I think she was my role model because she embodied everything that I admire today, not just back then, but today in the world. She really was thirsty for knowledge. She was an English, math, and Sanskrit teacher. She cared very deeply. She supported many, many family members who may not— who may have had some misfortune in their lives. So rather than going and buying the next shiny thing. She would use the money to support many people's advancement, and we still get letters from them. You know, she's been gone a long time. So without a doubt, my mother. I was very lucky.

Yeah, she sounds like such a great woman. And I can see she also instilled in you independence. She did not make you feel like, Well, you're a woman, so you know, gotta be subservient or whatever. She also instilled independence. Yeah, fierce independence, I will say. Am I right?

Oh yeah, I mean, she got her master's degree when most women in India were not getting an education. So she also said. Always be independent. Yeah. You don't know what life is going to throw at you. So yeah.

Right. Yeah. Well, there are many young people and adults with disabilities listening to the show who are facing hardship due to unemployment. As you know, with the federal government, that was the biggest employer of people with disabilities. And these people lost their job, their house. And then there are just people that have not been able to find employment. Maybe they had an accident or something, and then no one wanted to hire them. But what, what message would you like to leave for them?

I talked a lot about what is happening globally in digital accessibility today. Because it's important context. We've all known the trials and tribulations of disability and accessibility, and each one of us experiences this a little differently depending on our individual situations. And all of us have friends and family, somebody with a disability. I do. But I am incredibly optimistic about the future because of what I talked about here today. The major and meaningful changes around the world in the regulatory landscape. Digital accessibility, which is critical to having a good job. Is now considered a fundamental human right across the world. There is no question. And the huge innovations in technology, we have a chance of improving the state of the web and digital content and removing all barriers to digital independence and Employment. And if you're interested in developing a career in digital accessibility testing and you have a disability, I invite you to apply for a scholarship at Deque University. I think you'll have plenty of jobs out there if you develop that skill. So Joyce, I hope that helps.

Oh, that is— yeah, I don't think you could do more than that. I really don't. So before we leave, Preeti, Mary. When you think of Mary, do you not think of Get the Party Started?

Oh my God, yes. And it doesn't matter where the party is. She absolutely— well, both of us are smiling ear to ear. So what does that mean? Somebody like Mary brought a smile to your face because I can imagine her face and I can imagine her tapping her feet. And yes, the music, the band played on where she was, where she is.

Always. Yeah, that's right. And Mary lived with clinical depression, as I told you, for 40 years. And that is why at the Bender Leadership Academy, we started the Mary Procker Mental Health Initiative. And I just want to say again, there's always hope if you're a young person. There's always hope. Never give up. You know, you have a lot of people with disabilities and people in the mental health world that will support you and be here with you. And we just have to keep on keeping on. We have to keep moving. Keep moving. Don't stop. And I always tell people, you have a friend, Jay Bender, at benderconsult.com. You can always reach out to me. So with that, at the end of every show, we always have a quote. And today, oh, I love this quote. Keep your face to the sunshine and you cannot see the shadows, said Helen Keller. And that is so—

Wow.

True. Yes. Keep your face to the sunshine and you cannot see the shadows, said the great Helen Keller. And in the words of Mary Brocker, when you go out tomorrow, remember, choose joy. You won't be disappointed. This is Joyce Bender, America's Voice, where disability matters, at voiceamerica.com. Talk to you all next week, and hello to all my friends in Canada. Talk to you then.

Voice America would like to thank you for tuning in. Please join us next Tuesday at 11 AM Pacific Time and 2 PM Eastern Time for another installment of Disability Matters. Right here on the Voice America Variety Channel. We are the leader in live internet talk radio. VoiceAmerica.com.

Thank you.