Coaches Council Episode 43: Find Your Fit with Jeff Altman

And I know we have to work at this, but the data supports this and most people have no idea what they're doing when they're hiring.

You still have that responsibility of bringing in the right person that fits the culture of the team, that ultimately at the end of the day is going to get the job done that you need.

Because when you think about it, most job descriptions come about because it's Friday afternoon and someone's walked in and giving notice.

This is the Coaches Council, made up of six elite coaches dedicated to serving and ending personal struggle for high performers in business, health and relationships. As a collective, we have built and helped build six, seven and eight figure businesses, dominate in multiple industries, coached and played in professional sports leagues and developed some of the strongest and most intimate relationships, both professional and personal. This isn't your average podcast. It's for the hungry, the dedicated, the doers, for those that have a dream and truly want that dream to become reality. People who want to take action, leave their ego at the door and own every level of their life. If that's you, then step into the Coaching Council as we rewrite the truths to live in that high performance life. Welcome back to another week of the Coach Council. Perdeep, so great to see you, my man. How's everything back in Toronto?

Rocking and rolling, man. It's getting nice and cold up here.

I love it, I love it. I miss the wintertime it's been down in Florida. It's like you see like, what are those called Christmas lights on palm trees and snowflakes made out of like these paper mache things and it's just not the same. It's just not that good old Canadian winter where you gotta put your boots on and go outside and shovel snow. And there's something about it come around Christmas time.

And you're an Edmondson boy too, so that's a different extreme, a completely different.

Extreme where for all our American friends, -25 and no, I'm not speaking Celsius, but Fahrenheit is the norm. But you know what it makes you, as we talk about all the time, toughens you up and kind of gives you that grit that's needed in a lot of other factors of life. But I want to introduce our guest today, Jeff Altman. And Jeff has been in the hiring and leadership space for a long time, working with some of the most premier companies in the world, actually in helping executives and their teams hire the right people. And it's so interesting as we're coming into this new year where certain businesses have really flourished over this course. This time, other businesses are struggling, and there's a lot of things that come into the team that you bring in, the people that you hire, the talent that you're around. And really understanding that if you hire the wrong person, if you bring the wrong type of talent in, if you bring the wrong type of character person in, it can have a detrimental effect to your company. No matter how strong or how weak you think the company is at its current state, it can either bolster you or pull you down. And Jeff Altman has been doing this for 100 years.

Let's just get on with it.

100 years, 40 plus years.

But he's been killing it. And so with that, let's bring in the big game hunter, Mr. Jeff Altman. Thank you so much for being here.

Great to be here.

I love it. I love it. So, Jeff, kind of how did you get into this?

Well, back in the stone ages, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, you know, I was a college grad who knew next to nothing, and I went to work at one of those despicable employment agencies that give everyone a bad rap and learned all the obnoxious things before he said, I got to get out of here. And eventually, at least not say eventually, but I started my first business when I was 23 with a partner, and we were together for a number of years. And eventually I divorced him and went out on my own. And by the end of my time in search, 100 years later, you know, I was affiliated with a firm, I was contracting to them. So I was structured independently. But, you know, it was one of those no little boy or little girl really ever grows up to say, mom, dad, I want to be a headhunter. You kind of stumble into it. And that's what happened for me. And as time progressed, I kind of evolved in my career, become more professional, develop more education, learn to evaluate and assess people a little bit differently. All based upon my master's in social work experiences I had with men's retreats around the country and doing group work. It's been a number of years of work to get me to this place or for that place, I should say.

What's the biggest thing that you've noticed? You said really kind of developing the understanding of what to look for when you're trying to bring people in or teach people what to look for when bringing new people into your network or within to your organization. What is the number one thing or top three things that you educate people on as they're embarking on this process.

So the first thing is the realization, and I know we have to work at this, but the data supports this. And most people have no idea what they're doing when they're hiring. And I can say that definitively because statistics bear it out. So in one group of stats, depending upon whose you look at, within 18 months of someone joining an organization, they have buyer's remorse. And at the executive level, it's 46%. And with those employees, well, globally, the number on employee engagement is at 15%. The US is real good at 32. So one out of three people is engaged in the organization, and the remainder either really don't care or are actively trying to undermine your work. And the numbers in the U.S. despite everything that everyone knows about employee engagement, all the work that goes into it, the numbers haven't moved in the last five years. So obviously something wrong is going on. Right? The numbers don't lie this way. So the first thing I have to do really is to break down this notion of hiring for fit, which I make a joke out, because no one really hires for fit. They think they do. But let me ask you a question. If you were going out on an interview for a job, would you be on good behavior? Would you try and present yourself in the best way, perhaps exaggerate what it is that you're capable of doing?

I mean, for sure, it's definitely. I guarantee you that's what people do right now.

Let me flip it around. As an employer, they do the same thing. And I figured that out pretty early in my career in search, when it came to me, that I'd never heard of an employer ever say to a job seeker, you know, Justin, you know, Pradeep, you know, I've got a real problem around here. You know, I've inherited a team of imbeciles and we are completely incapable of doing what we're required to do. And my predecessor got fired and so did hers, and I've been moved into this group and I need to hire someone to help me save my derriere. No one ever says that, but it's true. Instead, they've all got these happy little smile button faces on and they, they talk about it. I got a great opportunity with a terrific team of people. Did I mention we're family around here? Like the family and the Christmas movies where they're at one another's lungs and throwing things at one another. Maybe it's that kind of a family. But you know, and once they bring people on board, having lied to them about what the opportunity is like people get emotionally crushed. Like this one guy I've been working with for a long time. I originally met him when he's working with one firm in the states and I brought him to another firm outside of the states and now bringing him back to the US So he gets recruited by this firm outside of the U.S. i don't want to say specifically where he is because he's just given notice we're dealing with the last issues for his completion with his current firm. So don't want to bring up where. And here they hire this really super bright, aggressive guy who's been a senior marketing person for his current organization. They bring him on board and do the speech. We've got a great opportunity and you know, there's a big future with us here. And the first thing they do, first of all is have five managers in the last two years. Five. And each time it's time to give them a review. They praise the heck out of them. They tell him wonderful things about his work. No money, wonderful things about the work. But you know what, we've got some good people on your team. We've got a, you know, evaluate to a certain level. So would you take one for the team here and accept grades on a 1 to 5 scale, just under a 4? Even though we think you're great at what you're doing, you've really turned things around. And you know, two years later it came back to bite him on the butt for being a nice guy and going along and being a team player. Firms destroyed the people that they bring on board. So it's a multi pronged approach that I really have to work with. Starting off with how do you evaluate and assess people and once you get them on board, how do you inspire them? Not motivate, inspire them to excellence and reduce friction from the organization so they can do great work?

No, I was going to say, yeah, what you talked about sounds. It reminds me of when I was in the corporate world and we used to go through interviews and one of my last roles as an executive was working for an organization that was unionized. And I remember hiring some of our VPs. And when we were going through the interviews, one of my colleagues, as he was expressing the culture of the organization, the candidate was asking, well, how are things around here? And he said, yeah, you know what? We're doing great. We're doing really well. Our numbers have. We had tremendous success. But being in that unionized environment, there was some real issues. There were some significant issues. And I just remember Looking over at him and saying, what the hell are you telling this guy? This is a bunch of bs, like, we got some problems, and if we're gonna. And if we're gonna paint it like a rosy picture, this guy's gonna have issues coming in because, you know, just like. Like you said, we're interviewing them, him, but he's also interviewing us.

And they're selling to one another. Yeah.

And it's hard.

And the selling involves a degree of. I smell something that's unpleasant here. I'm not going to use the word, but I think most of you are brain enough to figure out what I'm smelling here. And unfortunately, that's part of the package.

Yeah. And so do you coach when you're working with executives that are looking for individuals? Do you coach them through. Okay, this is how you conduct a proper interview. This is how you need to present yourself. What's your approach in working with. With organizations?

My favorite story here is about how job descriptions are generated. Because when you think about it, most job descriptions come about because it's Friday afternoon and someone's walked in and given notice. And the person who's been given notice to calls over to HR and goes, hey, Justin, you got that job description we used to hire Pradeep? Yeah, I just gave notice. And you think you can get that job description out to our resources and see if we can get onto my calendar for Tuesday?

Yeah, that or there's no job description whatsoever. We need to create one asap.

Right, Right. So maybe. And HR people laugh when I say this, because you'll understand why in a second. Maybe the job description is 80% accurate, but no one's ever updated it in the last 10 years. They just keep funneling it out and figuring out as they go along what it is they really want. But because it was institutionally approved somewhere around the time where Bill Clinton was president, they keep giving it out. So no one wants to go back and get more approvals. So the first thing is get clear about what you want and what you're looking for. That's always the launch point. Now, you can adapt it as you go along, but at least adopt a baseline. And everyone who's involved in the process needs to understand what it is, because usually what happens, I'll use the example of a plant manager. Plant managers try to hire someone. How many other people would get brought into the interview process? You tell me. Two, three people. How many people would get involved other than hr? So each person has to understand what it is that's being Sought and what it is the plan manager wants them to really evaluate for and how. Because normally what happens is again, someone said this to me as I was interviewing them for my show. They said, normally the decision is made at the time the person's in the lobby or 10 minutes before the interview. During pandemic times, while they're waiting to be connected over video, they decide what they're going to ask a few minutes before the interview, which is a pattern that's going to lead to arbitrary questions instead of standardized ones for which you can measure people's answers against the baseline of what the requirement is. This is so simple, but no one does it. Instead, they kind of wing it, just like the candidate makes the mistake of winging it. Well, employers do the same thing. I'll go talk to him about such and such. They may say to the subordinate doing the interview. And I worked at a search firm and people would say that to me five minutes before or maybe while the person was in the lobby. And thus you have no idea what the real target is. So I'm a believer you get real clear about what it is you want. And if you need to adapt it a little bit later on, because needs kind of evolve over time, what you wind up doing is adapt, communicate, change the job description so everyone's on the same page. Anyone involved in the process has to be told what it is that you're really looking for now and how to evaluate for it. And there's one answer that's completely unacceptable and I still like it, as so often is given, because there's no specificity. Now, if you're in the HR organization or the HR business partner, or you're a senior individual coordinating this, whom the position reports too light is a useless. Where did they miss? Are they qualified? What did you ask them about? What was their answer? Standardize the questioning and the result and trying to figure out a way that you can get the candidate off the script that they've been programmed to operate from. Because I'll just simply say, as you know, so many questions, so many interviews. Start off with the question, so tell me about yourself or walk me through your background. And everyone knows this. And there's a framework for how employers tend to interview and it's kind of predictable. So candidates, job hunters, no matter what the level in the organization, have the idea that they know what's going to be coming and the stupid ones don't rehearse for it. So you can immediately eliminate them because they're too dumb to have practiced for it. But if I'm in an organization trying to hire you hire someone for a role, the first question would I ask them is, what's most important to you in the next job or organization? That's a much better question than tell me about yourself. Because once you discover what it is that they're really looking for, you can either give it to them or not. And if not, you can end the interview there. It's perfect, you're done. One question.

And this is so good for people both on the hiring side as well as the job hunting side, because it's a dual role, right? It's not just you show up and, oh, they're gonna ask me questions and I'm gonna go for it. Well, you need to be clear, both as a job hunter as well as a job giver, if you will. Whether you're the employer or the employee looking to be hired, whether the organization is three people or 3,000 people that you're leading, you still have that responsibility of bringing in the right person that fits the culture of the team that ultimately, at the end of the day is going to get the job done that you need. Because I can't tell you how many times, and I've been at fault of this in my own business where I was like, I just, at the end of the day, I was like, I just need an able breathing body to be able to come in and get the job done what I need. And really didn't understand fully what they were capable of. And at the end of the day, hired somebody who couldn't get the job done to the extent that I needed it. And then on the other hand, took me two to three months to figure out what they were really, truly what another person was truly capable of, and utilized them to a whole nother level and elevated them in the position of the company. And so both of those, as a leader are your fault. You are the. Like Bedros Kulian always says, leadership is the problem, but leadership is also the solution. And so I'm really curious about what you said there. You made a really key point on it where you said, it's not about motivating people once you get them in the space they're in, it's about inspiring them. What does that mean? What's the difference between those two? Whether, again, your organization that you're leading or you're running is a person of company of three or a company of 3,000 or a family.

So I don't want to claim credit for this. And we tend in US Culture to use the two words interchangeably, but they have different meanings. Motivation is pushing to do something that they're resistant to do. For example, the person who you coach, who doesn't want to do the steps to lose weight. So you got to do, come on, you kind of cheerlead them or push them or make them or whatever it is you do to get them to do what they'll resist them to do it. In contrast, inspiring someone is tapping that quality within them that just lights up. So the metaphor I learned from a guy named Lance Secretan, who's a global coach, former president of Manpower who now does coaching worldwide. Lance uses a metaphor. It's the title of a book he wrote called the Spark, the Flame and the Torch. And as a leader, his belief and I love this, you'll see why I adopted in a second is the notion that a person has a spark within them and you want to support them in bringing it into combusting, into a flame that burns bright. So that way you help them carry a torch out into the world and lead. And thus the notion of inspiring someone is helping them take that small spark and really bring it out of them. Draw it out beautifully so that in this way you don't have to push them. They want to do it, they desire doing it. So you're tapping into the internal quality of a person rather than the threat of punishment that so often firms use. Carrot stick. Carrot stick. Which one would you like? No reason to use either if you can tap into the internal quality within them that wants them to excel. Which goes back to the notion of employee engagement and why so few employees are engaged anywhere in the world. Institutional systems really destroy the joy and the passion within people and as part of the hiring process should involve understanding what your system is like and what this person can do within that system, or whether they fit into your system. It's kind of like in sports, you know, there's some players that are world class players, but you put them into the wrong system, they can't perform. They're crushed by the system, or vice versa. They're out of control for the system. See picture New Jersey devils, you know, 1980s, 90s where they played a grind it out kind of system that you put a star and there was an individual talent they can't really excel in. That system doesn't work for them. So that's the difference between motivation and inspiration to me. And you want to hire people and find out if they've got that quality within them that makes them special. So that way you can deal with those qualities and support them being great.

So when you're helping individuals or organizations, is there a specific place you look.

To find the right people? Well, I'm out of the recruiting business at this point. I did it for, like I said, almost 100 years. It was actually more than 40 years. And I would start off with skills based searching is the client needed people with a specific type of background. But then from there the goal becomes what is it that makes this person different? Because most interviews as they're conducted now are really like me too interviews and firms are begging to see someone different in front of them, someone who's got a spark rather than that robotic behavior that so many candidates have. It's why when I coach job hunters, I teach them a framework for interviewing that allows them to stand out pretty quickly and get past some of the early BS that takes place and get to the point of this is what I can do to help you. Let me tell you how I've done it for someone else before. But before we go, I want to understand what I'm stepping into. That's fundamentally the stages of the interview that I take a job hunter through. And now from the employer side, my goal is to get job hunters off the script that they've been trained with so that their real personality comes out. Because if you just keep asking, tell me about yourself and expect to get a different answer, you're nuts. Hasn't happened yet.

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To get to the real person. And the questions that most firms ask are tell me about your background. Tell me about a time when you. And it's all scripted on their side. It's why the tell me about yourself question is so bad. So, you know, I mentioned one question to launch an interview with before. What's most important to you in your next job or organization? What do you need to see or hear to believe it's the right choice for you because you don't want to waste your time. But then from there, my next favorite question is why do you do what you do? And that brings out a certain degree of humanity in the person and gets them to start opening up about why they are in this career now, however many years later it is so that this way they can reveal something about themselves from the answer. And then I go to another question that people laugh when I ask this question of them. What did you want to be when you were growing up? Because that's the dream within someone from their childhood. And thus it's unbridled passion that exists that you can tap into. So whether it was desire to be a pitcher for the Yankees, as was my case, or dreaming of being a professional ballerina, you want to connect with the excitement and the embarrassment that they have if they admit the truth, if they don't admit the truth, that's information for you that I think is really useful for you to know that they're never going to be completely open with you because you want the ones who have the courage to open up at a question like that. And then the fourth question in my opening sequence is, how did you get from there to here? So if you were me and being the Yankee pitcher or the professional ballerina, how did you wind up being a software engineer or a headhunter or what have you from that place? And you get them to start to open up and reveal something about themselves that I think is really useful for you as an executive in an organization considering bringing on another senior leader or even a staff person. It just gives them a chance to share with you. A great story I heard on a podcast some years ago was about first, I want to say African American head of systems engineering at Twitter. And if you asked him the typical question of tell me about yourself, you wouldn't have heard how when he was in high school, he would ride the bus two hours through gang territory to get to a school where he could practice software engineering. You never hear that story because we all expect to hear the script of, well, I started in the field back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, as I did before. And you go through this short bio about yourself and who cares? It's on the resume. All you've done is confirm what you already read or skimmed. So the idea is you've got to get to the person. If you don't get to the person, you make the same mistakes to give you the same bad results you've been getting for so long.

It's such an interesting point because it really comes all back to communication and building high quality relationships. Whether you're going to hire that person or not, you enter the space with the intention of getting to know the most about that person, with no judgment, no preconceived notion, with all guard down, seeing if they truly do fit with the group. And if you enter in, if I'm hearing you right, when you enter into the space of truly wanting to get to know the person on the other side of the desk, on the other side of the chair, on the other side of the coach, whatever it is that you are, the other side of the screen, wherever it is that you're doing the interview, if you enter in with a true youthful energy and curiosity, with authentic interest, you are going to be able to get a real gut feel as well as Some high quality information that will help drive the decision, that will prevent maybe past errors that have been made.

I agree. And when you evaluate one thing you might try looking for. And again, credit to Secretan for this one. He uses an acronym in his leadership coaching that I've adopted. The acronym is Castle Courage, Authenticity, Service, Truthfulness, Love, Effectiveness. It's a golden thing. And they're all interdependent upon one another. But it starts with courage. The courage to, as a job hunter, open up and reveal about yourself as an employer. Being honest with what someone's stepping into. Unlike the lies at the union shop that were being propagated. I coached a guy into a role and he discovered what he was stepping into after he was there and it was not what was being represented to him. It happens all the time and people, they think they can get away with it. And these days of social media being what it is, the stories come out. It's sad. The stories come out and firms still conduct themselves that way instead of being honest about what people step into. So even if it's bad, say, hey, we got problems here. You know, I get the idea that you're really looking for a challenge. We've got a challenge. But you got to know what you're stepping into. Let me tell you about my issues here. Instead of discovering your first week and asking yourself the question, what have I gotten myself involved with? As so many leaders say to themselves in an organization.

And lo and behold, as you show up with that level of authenticity and courage, you're also going to be surprised with the amount of authenticity and courage that comes back from the person that you're interviewing, from the person you're bringing on. And lo and behold, they might be the exact person that you truly need to turn your problem into a ultimate success.

And you'll have a great person to work with because that's really what I'll turn into is a with rather than have them work for. And frankly, in board level interviews, the ability to sit there and answer the questions and do it with character is one of the qualities that they'll want to see. Because if you try and snow them, trust me, they have very good detectors to pick up on stuff. There's a guy I worked with some years ago, he was up for a COO role with a firm and the board member he's talking to starts off with, who are your enemies? That's the first question, who are your enemies? How'd you make them? It doesn't get easy the more senior you are and they've got background about you because they've got relationships in organizations that you'd be surprised about. And you got to dig and be prepared for tough questioning. So it's a fun process if you do it the right way. Most firms don't do it the right way. They just wanted to use the stick. Revised quizzes and it doesn't work. And the proof is in the data.

I love it. It's so interesting, Jeff, because the more that you dig into this, the more that you learn that relationship building, authenticity, showing up as your unapologetically authentic self is really the root of most things. From relationships at work, relationships at home, interpersonal relationships. And at the end of the day, they end up helping you so much more than by doing what's maybe comfortable, by doing what's maybe easy, by taking the shortcut road. But at the end of the day, again, whether you're leading that group of three or that group of 3,000, knowing that the people that you have are going to be able to show up, step up, and deliver the way that you need to, and the way that the organization requires to be successful and truly serve and empower and give back the way you need is worth its weight in gold.

Not only that, if both sides are honest with one another during the interview, instead of deciding you bring someone on board, you make them the offer. And you have to worry about, as the job hunter, whether they hired you because of you or because of the act. And from the employer perspective, are they joining because I calmed them or are they really bought in? And no one thinks in those terms until they start going, why did I bring this person on board and start to express that buyer's remorse to their wife, husband or partner? You know, you're in this situation where you never really sure. So the goal that I have are you never really sure. So the goal that I have in working, break down the barriers to honesty and openness and having the courage to be forthcoming as a manager, to be authentic and lay out the circumstances. Serve everyone by doing so, because then you don't have as much turnover because you were truthful and you cared for them enough, you love for them enough to open up, even if that means that someone's not going to join yet. They wouldn't have wanted to join, they would have washed down, and thus you're far more effective.

Yeah, I love that. I love how you put it in terms of breaking down those barriers and being honest. Because I think that that, for me, just kind of summed it up in terms of Everything that you do, and that in itself just connects the right organization with the right candidate. There's so many layers in between that people. There's so much formality in the corporate world that, yeah, if you get rid of that and get to know the person, because ultimately you're working for an organization, but you're working for the senior executives, you're working for the CEO. They all have personalities. They all have their individual leadership styles, and everybody is flawed. And I think if you actually open up and you share those, I think it's, it's. I just love how you put that in terms of breaking down those barriers of communication. Because that's important.

Because ultimately when you hire someone, the tiebreaker, and it's the big tiebreaker, I trust them. That's what you're really looking for. Because there's a lot of people with the skills. As I say, when firms hire, they look for competence, self confidence, character, chemistry, maybe a little bit of charisma, because charismatic people always do better.

Yeah.

Ultimately, a firm wants to trust that you're the right choice and that you inspire confidence in them, that you're the solution to a need. And if you ask the same questions predictably and never get through the walls that are up between the two of you, you never know what you're really getting. And that's, again, the proof is in the data.

No, you're completely right, Jeff. And I just love the way that you summed that up and the way in which you articulated that, because it becomes. We start to realize that it is truly about how we show up and how we can break down those walls to honesty to become the true portion of us that shows up. So that again, what we're buying is what we want and what we're getting into is what we want to get into at the end of the day. And making that match, truly something that is effective for everyone, that allows us to serve and truly inspire. So where can everybody find you?

Well, I'm right here. No, just kidding. My website is TheBigGameHunter US. There's thousands of posts in the blog there. People can schedule time for free discovery call or schedule time for coaching. I'd love to help, folks. I've got a YouTube channel at job searchtv.com and the number one podcast and Apple podcast for job search called no BS Job Search Advice Radio. We had our 10th anniversary and 2000th episode about three weeks ago.

Congratulations. That's awesome.

Phenomenal. That's awesome.

Thank you. And lastly, LinkedIn, LinkedIn.com In TheBigGameHunner I was LinkedIn member 7653, by the way.

I love it.

That's awesome.

I love it. So, guys, whether you're leading a group of three, whether you're leading a group of 3,000, it's all about inspiring. It's not about motivating. It's about bringing the right people on board. The people that will be able to show up courageously, the people that will be able to show up authentically, the people that will be able to to serve in the way in which you want to serve and lead with love and empathy. And the more in which we can do that from the onset of people that you bring onto your team and the greater in which we can do that with everybody we come in contact with will allow for success no matter what the economic, business or governmental structure is going on around us and we can truly focus on being the best versions of us and succeeding no matter what. So stay hungry, stay humble and we'll see you guys next week. Thank you so much for joining us for another week of the coaches council. If it wasn't for you viewers and listeners, we wouldn't have a platform. So again, it's all about you guys and we want to give you a reward just for listening. We want to give you access to each one of our coaches for a little bit deeper, intimate experience. So if you go to coaches-counsel.com coaches-counsel.com subscribe and like to whatever platform you're viewing on, you're going to be entered to have that one on one experience. So be sure to go coaches-counsel.com and really interact with us because we would love to to interact with you. Until then, stay safe, stay hungry, stay humble and thanks for listening.