Coaches Council Podcast Episode 28: Modern Day Masculinity Part 2: The Inner Struggle

Guys are probably more confused than ever right now in terms of what it means to be a man.

Crying at a movie that is often perceived as weakness and then that is self judgment. It's a belief system, a story that we wear around. Wow, I'm not a man.

To get to the authentic expression of self starts with the erosion of care about the perception of other.

This is the Coaches Council, made up of six elite coaches dedicated to serving and ending personal struggle for high performers in business, health and relationships. As a collective, we have built and helped build six, seven and eight figure businesses, dominate in multiple industries, coached and played in professional sports leagues and developed some of the strongest and most intimate relationships, both professional and personal. This isn't your average podcast. It's for the hungry, the dedicated, the doers, for those that have a dream and truly want that dream to become reality. People who want to take action, leave their ego at the door and own every level of their life. If that's you, then step into the coach's council as we rewrite the truths to living that high performance life. Welcome back. The second part of our modern day masculinity. We've got Matt Shakir and Peter Nguyen with us and as always, Pradeep. John, great to see you guys. This week we are going back into a lot more of the internal side. Last week we spoke about all about the outward projection, the fitness, the fashion, the behaviors, the things that society puts on us and truly what that was doing for how we showed up in this world. And today we're going to go into the internal aspects of it. A lot of looking at the experiences of masculinity, that masculine feminine energy that we've spoken about before, the habits that we have, what it truly means to being a man, how we are stifled in certain ways and how it actually holds us back without truly allowing us to show our true colors. So with that, I know, Peter, you've done a lot of work with men in the styling aspect and really kind of seeing that change and shift in their psyche and the way that they show up. And Matt, you're a specialist in identifying that conscious leadership with men in business. And I'm curious, John, I want you to touch on this before I throw it over to them. But what does the actual energies have to do with how men show up? And John, I'd like you to lead that into a question because you've done so much work on the energies and how that truly changes the way that we're able to operate on a day to day basis from that internal section of true masculinity.

When we talk about the masculine and the feminine, or masculine and feminine energy, what we're really doing is bringing into the conversation a framework that allows us to sort of bifurcate action versus reception. And so the masculine energy, this, this is, by the way, this appears in so many cultures and Asian cultures. It's the yin and yang. This appears in Southeast Indian cultures, it's in Nordic cultures as well. It's just, you know, it. It's the duality of nature, the sun versus the moon, et cetera. And so in the way that we commonly use it today, you know, as everything tends to eventually blend together, the masculine or masculine energy is active energy. It provides structure, it provides reason, it provides, you know, the divine. Masculine is like the protective great white oak. Whereas the feminine energy is more passive, more receptive, more flowing. Masculine is more fire, and, you know, feminine is more water. And we all have these within us. And, you know, the main thing is being too much in your masculine can be a thing that both men and women and non binary people can experience, which is constant achievement, always going, never being able to, like, slow down and receive. And being too much in your feminine, which again, can be an experience that anyone has. It is just like not standing up for yourself, not taking action, being idle. And when we look at Western society, what is very clear is that in addition to, or in place of understanding masculine and feminine energy as necessities that should be in balance within each individual, we've decided we're going to have a much simpler conversation which is creating division of gender roles and behaviors and acceptable things to do and feel and be and say one is not for the masculine but for men. And we're going to call that masculinity. And then one is for women or people we determine are women. And that is called femininity. And so that conversation being simplified to that degree has harmed all of us because it has created this aversion to the feminine by its identification as femininity. And a lot of that has to do with, let's say, emotion and even simple behaviors. The idea of, like, household chores being feminine when in fact they are masculine. To cook something is a masculine act. It's an act of creation. Whereas like, to be served and eat something is actually an act of reception and passivity. And so that's a feminine act. To sew clothes is actually a masculine act. To create, like what Peter does when, you know, when he was in the fashion industry and created leather jackets, he had a great Company called Lyon. That was a masculine act. To bring something into existence in that way, to create it structurally, is the masculine. But we. We have separated from these ideas of. Of how the, you know, we can. We can identify masculine versus feminine in terms of, like, action and structure versus passivity and reception. And we've. We've created these categories. And then. So that eventually leads to this position that we're in where we now have certain things that, like, men are supposed to do and women are supposed to do, and we're thankfully detaching from those. But I, being a child and hearing things like, all men should know how to change a tire. And then, you know, I personally am more of a utility guy. I think anyone who drives a car should probably know how to change a fucking tire. That's just basic stuff. And, like, the idea that women should do the cooking. I don't know, if you have, like, a mouth and a stomach, you should probably be able to feed yourself. That, to me, doesn't seem like a feminine thing. And it shows up most strongly in terms of interpersonal relations and so our internal world and how that expresses outwardly in terms of how we interact with each other and ourselves. So we'll start with Matt. Matt. I googled right before this episode the term guy cry movies. And what comes up is dozens and dozens of lists of movies that men are allowed to cry at. So firstly, we've created the idea that there's a behavior that women are allowed to do without question, but men are only allowed to do under certain. Certain circumstances. So it's crying, it's experiencing some sort of deep emotion. And then there are. So that's, you know, there's 10 movies that make it okay for guys to cry, 21 definitive guy cry movie moments, 15 sad movies that men are allowed to cry at. So there's two things happening. One is creating this set of circumstances under which men are allowed to cry. And then there's other lists that it's like, even the toughest guys cry at. So it's this emotional presentation so intense that it overwhelms the toughest and most resilient among us, which positions masculinity as, you know, sort of a defense mechanism against emotion. So just kind of like, speak to what it's like how, you know, you've been in the business world, you were in medical sales, doing super high and earning high six figures for and, like, selling and constantly moving and acting to now being in the consciousness space where you're helping men detach from that. Just talk about, like, how men relate to emotions. Yeah.

And I think first and foremost, there's vulnerability in emotion. And we've been conditioned to think that vulnerability is not good, it's a weakness. So especially in my experience in medical sales, it's like you shut everything off and you operate, you go towards your objectives, and that's it. So if there's a connection to your vulnerability through, you know, crying at a movie, that is often perceived as weakness. And then that is self judgment. It's a belief system, a story that we wear around. Wow, I'm not a man. I'm not showing up as powerfully as all these other guys that don't do that. You know, so there's this constant comparison syndrome that I believe that most men have adopted. And this is generalization of, whoa, I can't be my full authentic self. I can't be vulnerable because I will be perceived as weak. I will be perceived as, you know, feminine or not an alpha or not a. That's able to be perceived as, like, this is the optimal man. And so that was my experience in medical sales and even through coaching. Now, moving over into the consciousness space, there's so many men that maybe they don't know what masculine and feminine within themselves is, but they're like, there's something more than making 3, 4, $500,000 a year. And I don't know what it is, but I'm seeking more because I'm not filled with.

So, Peter, I think that. And I am absolutely just, like, projecting here. I have absolutely no idea. So please feel free to tell me if I'm wrong. But my perception is that there is extra pressure on people of Asian descent to not exhibit emotion. You know, in certain cultures, like the Japanese culture, like, that's a very cultural thing. But here in Western culture, there is this projection of that Asian people are just somehow inherently more effeminate. And so they're like, you have to be more emotionally repressed to not let that bother you. Can you speak to a little bit about your experience in terms of your just emotionality in Western culture and then also what you experience as a man?

Yeah. So I always felt like I was an emotional person. Like, I was always in tune with my emotions. And I. I didn't realize it was something that was looked down upon, especially in Western culture, until people would tell me or tell me that men don't show emotion. It's sort of like the whole thing with where, like, Asian men aren't desirable on dating apps. Like, I didn't know that Was a thing until people are telling me that people don't find Asian men attractive. So it's been a weird experience for me, especially with my parents, you know, having come here from Vietnam. And I think maybe this was sort of an immigrant culture where, you know, they just kind of did the work, put their head down and all that. So it's been interesting, I think, to see, I think a lot of Asian men grow up in that generation where they're the first kind of American born kids and their parents are just working and they just kind of focus down work. So I think growing up in that environment where you didn't see your parents express emotion most of the time because they are working so hard, I think that kind of influences you in a sense to kind of not show your emotions too.

I was a very emotional kid and you know, I had a traumatic background, but my trauma brain is very, very good at compartmentalization. And so experiencing extreme emotional upheaval and then being able to turn it off right away is what I was taught to do. Because there'd be these massive explosions in the house and then I'd immediately be like, nope, like we got to just shut this down. And that affected me in a lot of very, very interesting ways. And one of those was with my relationship to crying, because I grew up in a, in such a violent household that, and having to suppress my emotions in that household, it gave me this weird sort of barometer for what was allowed to upset you. Right. And so I had this whole belief, I was like, well, it's crazy to me that someone would have the same reaction for getting a bad grade on a test that they would. For like their grandmother dying. Like crying is reserved for that you're not allowed to do it there. And so this affected me. In relationships, when somebody would get upset and I would just be like, but why are you crying? But why are you crying? But explain it to me, but why are you crying? Which is the most invalidating, insensitive thing you could do. I now realize. And it wasn't until I met my ex wife and was able to move through some of these blocks that, you know, by the time I met my ex, I hadn't cried in seven years. And then once I worked through some stuff and I moved past it, I felt like I was always crying. And now I'm so in touch with it that like I. The way I say it is, I am sometimes not crying. I'm usually crying. I like movies and books and music, just like I dance and I'm like, oh, this is. I'm having so much fun. And the tears flow and it's so. It's a much better experience for me. And I think I'm very privileged in the sense that because I am a jack dude with a bunch of tattoos and, you know, I like, present as, like, very outwardly traditionally masculine, that is perceived as sort of dichotomous and therefore interesting and sweet. Whereas men who do not present that way and are crying, they're perceived as effeminate, which is a pejorative. I am exponentially happier now that I'm at a place where I can not only cry when things are bothering me, but I also don't care who it's in front of. Go ahead.

Sorry, John. I was gonna say to that point, John, like, being able to all of a sudden really harness who you are and open up this certain level of yourself. I'm curious, Pradeep, with everybody that you've worked with in business, and when they show up and they have this certain understanding of what a man is and how they need to do business, how much of it is so stereotypical and is so created by the social norms, if you will, that's actually intrinsically holding them back from doing really great things?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, first of all, I think everything that we. We live in a society, so the previous episode we talked about judgment. And the way social society works is it's based on gender, it's based on roles, it's based on judgment. That's basically how society operates. Unfortunately, that's how we've evolved as a human species. So there's always that level of, okay, is someone going to judge me? Am I going to judge myself? But here's what I can say in working with guys is that guys are probably more confused than ever right now in terms of what it means to be a man. Because there's guys that have a stronger masculine energy, but they're not sure if they should express it. They're not sure where to express it. They're in the corporate world, for example, and they don't feel like they can express it because they're going to either get a harassment charge or they're going to get something. They're going to be perceived in a certain way. And then there's other guys that want to feel more masculine. They just don't know how to tap into it. And there's guys that have a lot more feminine energy in them and they don't know how to release it. So there's a whole. I'm Going to say, shit mix out there, Justin, in terms of where guys are at, I can't say two decades ago it would have been different because when I started studying, you can say gender and social relationships and the energies. That's when psychologists were actually saying there's a big shift in terms of the relationship between genders and relationships. And they basically said about two decades ago that we're going to see this massive trend over the next little bit where women have this different level of power, they're going to have a different level of self awareness, and guys are going to have a different level of self awareness, and they're going to lack the power. But basically, to sum it all up, I can't say that those same norms are present everywhere, because there is a. I would say this is the flux. And if I could relate it, it's kind of like the pendulum we had the feminist movement that started in the 70s, for example, and we have a strong movement. We have the Me Too movement, We have the toxic masculinity movement that has swung the pendulum to such a degree that men are really confused, men are scared. A lot of men are really scared. But it doesn't help that we have leaders like Trump out there. And I think Trump is, again, you know, he's done some good things, but he's not helping men and masculinity at all. Because there's a younger generation right now, the young and impressionable, that think, well, maybe that's what it should be like to be a man, right? Maybe you can bully your way to get what you want and that's acceptable.

So.

The work that I do, the work that Matt does, for example, and working with guys, I'm sure Peter, to a degree as well, is that I'm seeing that guys are just all over the place. There is no one area that I can say that they're kind of pigeonholed in. And so I think what it really comes down to, Justin, is it depends on the person, and I keep saying this, is that it depends on where you are, what makes you happy. If you are happier living in a more masculine world, there's nothing wrong with that. If you like to go out there and box or do MMA or play a sport where you like to kick the crap out of someone, that's fine. If you're happy, you're happy. If you like to be more in the feminine world, where you are feeling more emotional, you're feeling more in tune with certain things, that's okay, too. I think everybody just has to find that balance. And you have to put everything aside and be able to find it for yourself. Ultimately, that's what it comes down. You can't let other people dictate how you should feel. The one last thing I want to say on this point is anything that I, in terms of my coaching and the work that I do, I always tell the person, you have to feel right about it in terms of what is right for you. If what I'm saying doesn't feel right for you, then you know it's not right for you. Then you need to find what's more natural for you. So whatever I'm saying means two shits. If it's not going to help you in life, if it's not going to help you live a happier life, if it's not going to help you in your relationship. Because that's just based on my personal experience and my. Basically, the guys that I worked with. You could be in a completely different ballgame.

Totally. And that's exactly what I think we were getting at in terms of. But we've talked about this so many times before on this podcast where it is all about what's the individual aspect. Nobody is the same in this world. There's certain things that are going to work for John, certain things that are going to work for you. Certain things are going to work for Peter and Matt and Drew and Brian and everybody. There's different things that no one's the same. And so by identifying that, it is the first step. But I think what I truly want to get out to the listeners here and Matt, I'm going to come to you for this first is when people are struggling with man, how do I tap into my masculine energy or how do I tap into my feminine energy? What does feel right for me? I don't know. I don't know what feels good because I'm battling with this. What makes me successful versus what makes me feel good versus what. And they're going around in a circle of confusion that when they're confused, they actually don't do anything, and that's the worst thing that you can do. So, Matt, what are you telling your clients? Or what is it that for our listeners out there that are confused as to where to start in terms of identifying what the balance is that's right for them, how would you create this balance so that at the end of the day, they have a place to start?

Yeah, great question. And I think there's, you know, the three primary tools I use are the breath, meditation, and journaling. You know, so it starts with introspection. It starts with doing an audit of how do I feel? You know, am I feeling like I'm more leaning to the masculine or am I feeling like I'm too emotional and I'm not getting things done? So I will ask them to do an audit with a lot of questions about self love, about how do you perceive, what are your belief systems? What are the stories that you've been living through that maybe don't serve you anymore? So I think the number one thing that we can do is do a deep dive into ourselves and really start to ask those deeper questions. Am I happy? What's fulfillment look like? Do I feel good about the direction that my life is moving in? And once we can have a snapshot, then we can start to identify, okay, what areas do we need to move towards? What areas do we need to set goals around and create strategies that are going to help you tune into more fulfillment, more self love, more self acceptance. So that's usually where I start with all my clients.

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It's interesting because I think so. I mean, within my work, I don't really prescribe like one style for my guys. So you can see these categories within the clients that I have, where some men are dressed a little bit more masculine, right? They'll be in denim and work shirts and a lot of, like, boots, whereas other guys are into the more kind of romantic side, like the suits and the flowy shirts. So we see the spectrum. I see a spectrum of guys who have these different energy balances. And for my job is to kind of figure what's the style that fits them. And I see that kind of Help them kind of embrace these qualities that they might have been afraid of. Like, for example, for me, you know, I love dressing in suits. I love, like, John knows, I love, like, handwriting notes. And I think for a lot of guys today, they might see that as sort of old timey, kind of romantic, even feminine kind of traits. Whereas this, that's just how I am. And I think once you sort of find that style that kind of embodies your kind of balance between masculine and feminine, I think I see my clients are more likely to kind of embrace that a lot more.

Peter, I got a question for you. Based on the work that you do in the fashion, how much do you find that guys are dressing for their work or other guys versus dressing for women? Like, is there. Do you find that guys dress up a lot for women or is it more of the other guys?

It's an interesting question. So last week we were talking about this. A lot of my clients have this need for utility. So I find that the men who focus on utility, where it's like, okay, how functional is this jacket? How many pockets does it have? All those, like, little details. They tend to dress for men because they're kind of showing off, like, okay, I got this super functional bag, right? Whereas the guys that just want to look good and like what they see in the mirror, they tend to be dressing more for mostly themselves, but also for, you know, attracting a mate.

That's a great question. And men are obviously not a monolith in this in any area. I think what's really interesting is that if we're. If we're talking about the matching of the internal and external is the more confident you sort of become in who you are, the more confident you can express that outwardly. And so, you know, you have people who are very willing to dress like what we would consider outrageously. Professional athletes are a fantastic sort of example of this. Where you see, you know, when I watch an NFL team getting on the plane, I'm like, these suits are outrageous. This is incredible. These are people at the top 1% of 1% of 1% of what they can do in the world. If their confidence is supremely high, of course, happy to present themselves as, you know, outrageously as they want. That's real self expression. You saw it with Dennis Rodman being like, yeah, I'm gonna wear skirts, whatever. Justin, you had something to say?

It's very unique, though, and it's only very new. That style has really become a expression of who we are. And you see this now where the NBA, the NFL, the. It's been around longer in the NHL.

I was just gonna say Don Cherry, look at him for sure.

But those two sports, specifically the NBA and the NFL, they had to institute dress codes that they wanted them to dress more professionally. They wanted them to have the suit, the tie, the collared shirts, those types of things. And it was all of a sudden that there was kind of like a mental shift that they were like, oh yeah, well now this can become cool. I don't have to wear your dad's suit, I don't have to wear this. I can create my own kind of expression of myself through these things. And that's where people like Peter or other clothed yours have really come out and started to do these very unique and one off custom pieces for these 1 percenters that we were talking about. But you now go and you see them in the bubbles nowadays and the guys in the hockey guys, they're showing up in the complete opposite because they no longer have to wear the suits, they no longer have to dress that way. You got some of the top athletes in the world showing up in T shirts and shorts and flip flops. You got guys showing up in basketball jerseys. And it's a complete change and a complete switch. And the energies of which I think taking me back to now, my young age or even looking at the young kids now, but you take a 14, 15, 16 year old kid, you have them walk into an arena, you have them walk into school, you have them walk into an interview, whatever it may be, it doesn't matter the setting. And you have them walk in in a short and T shirt or what they would normally wear versus you dress them up in a pair of slacks, a collared shirt and a tie. And the level of confidence, the level of presence, the awareness they have, it immediately goes up. And the care and attention to what they're doing and the level of importance that they put on it, all of a sudden changes. And I'm curious really to understand how that crossover happens, because an outward projection has now been completely crossed over into the internal interpretation of what it is that we're doing. And how can we maximize that? How can our viewers maximize that from your job, your business, your family, whatever it is you're showing up for.

There's a fantastic book that touches on this by my good friend Todd Herman called the Alter Ego Effect. And he talks about how one of the ways he gets high performers to be able to get into state is by associating that state with a totem of some kind and for him, for Todd, for example, like, he doesn't really like, need glasses, but every time he goes on stage to present, he puts the glasses on. And that's very much like putting on, you know, the Superman outfit or whatever. And it goes back to what we talked about before. So you can create this association between these two things and also the importance of removing that thing. And so he talks in the book about a client who, whenever they're gonna go out into the world and be who they need to be in the world for success, they put on this particular bracelet that they have. But the moment that they come home, they take the bracelet off. Because now that's a reminder to go back into like being just dad and interacting with the kids in a certain way. But to quickly touch on, you know, the close the loop on the clothes. What I think is really interesting is that being able to dress in a way that is expressive of self. And whether that is in suits or, you know, or in more, you know, jeans and work shirts, that starts to get to the authentic expression of self. Starts with the erosion of care about the perception of other people. It's the acceptance that, that people will judge you or assess you based on how you look, but the erosion of care around how much importance you place on that and the increasing importance on what you feel for yourself. And that has to do with the more confident you feel in yourself, the more generally like self centered. And by self centered, I don't mean focused only on yourself, I mean centered in your understanding of self. The easier it is to just be like, no, this is what I wear, this is what I'm going to do. And like, I'm less concerned with how the world interacts with me. And you know, to go back to the example of 15 year old kids putting them in a suit and tie or whatever, it's, you know, it's almost like a costume of some kind at that age. It's like, this is how I'm supposed to behave when I wear these things rather than this is how I behave. And this is, you know, this, this costume is bringing it out of me in terms of, I do want to swing back more towards emotion. And so since we're talking about clothes, what are some things? And let's, you know, since we're here, we've got, we've got 25 minutes or so to like really dig in if anyone wants to volunteer. But if not, I'll pick on some. What are some things that you struggled with when you were younger? Either just like emotions that you felt you weren't allowed to feel. So I'll start. Because I grew up in a violent household and I saw that violence was direct correlation with anger. I grew up feeling like I was not allowed to be angry. Anger was bad. And so I, whenever I felt angry, I would push it down and push it down. I was never taught to have a healthy expression of anger or displeasure or really or conflict. I was very conflict avoidant. And the way that would come up in relationships was I was so afraid of conflict that I would not have difficult conversations. And eventually I would, like, do something and like, as soon as I got caught, I'd lie about it. Even something stupid like, did you fucking, like, stop by this store after work today? I wasn't allowed to feel anger or conflict, and that created a lot of problems in my life. Now, having integrated that, I have very healthy expression of anger. For most men, it's sadness. So let's start with Matt. Like, Matt, what was an emotion you were just made to feel like you weren't allowed to experience when you were young?

Yeah, I mean, what you just said, sadness. You know, my mom came from a long lineage of military background, you know, from generals to, you know, corporals and all of that. So if I didn't do well and I was sad, she negated that emotion immediately. So I was basically taught and conditioned to believe that I have to keep everything in unless I succeed in her eyes, you know. So the sadness was perpetually, you know, brought up in relationships, not only with women, but also with, you know, with my dad, my inability to connect to my dad because I always saw my mom as like. Like this is, you know, this is what you can do to get her approval. But often I never got that approval. So I just continue to pack on all that sadness.

Sadness, that's a big one for a lot of people. How about you, Pradeep? Anything that you weren't allowed to feel?

Yeah, I don't know if it was anything that we weren't allowed to feel. But, you know, one thing for our family in terms of how I was raised was probably guilt, because guilt was a big one in our family. If we did something that pissed someone off, then we would feel guilty about it. So I think that was a big thing. It took me a while to figure it out, probably into my mid-20s before I really figured out, okay, where that really came from. And a lot of it actually had to do with the cultural background as well, as I was dating a girl at that time. And in the Indian culture Growing up in the town that I was in, it wasn't really acceptable to date before you got married. And the family that. So basically, long story short, my girlfriend's family actually ended up committing a whole bunch of fraud. Yeah. On my family. They were building homes for us. And basically my family did not like her family whatsoever. So for years. For eight years. Because a lot of our dating was under the radar because I couldn't tell my parents. Sure, right. Because they totally.

It's very Romeo and Juliet.

Yeah, exactly. I had this huge degree of guilt that I lived with for such a long time. And that's what, you know, for me right now, the way I live my life is really guilt free. Because that is one emotion I do not like to live or with whatsoever. Just hiding anything. You know, I try to live with integrity so that when I put my head down on the pillow, I just don't feel like I have any guilt to live with. So that's. That's one big emotion for me.

Cool. Yeah, that's great. That's a great story, Peter. Anything that you, like, had to experience or weren't allowed to experience.

Yeah. So I think I'm like you, John. I grew up in a house where there was a lot of fighting with my parents and my older siblings. And so for me, it was. It wasn't like I wasn't allowed to feel anger. It was more of, like, seeing that made me kind of develop this idea that, okay, you can avoid conflict and figure things out. Right. Like problem solve. And so for me, growing up, that's been amazing for my entrepreneur skills.

Right.

Like figuring things out and being resilient. But when it comes to relationships or just kind of social interactions, like, I'm always trying to give my input or fix things. Right. Like, I'm taking on the responsibility. And that's taken me a lot of, like, therapy and unlearning where it's like, you know, just having a conversation with my wife when she wants to vent, asking her, you want to just vent or do you want my advice? You know?

Yeah. Like, do you need to be heard or do you want to be fit? Yeah.

Yeah. So I think for me, it's just. It's just like this avoidance of conflict. And my way to avoid things is to fix it. And so I think just that fear of having conflict or being around anger, I think that was definitely something that really affected me as a kid.

I think that's very much part of when we talk about masculine and feminine energetics. There's this great little Internet short called It's not about the Nail and I'll spoil it for everyone. It's this. It's this couple, and this woman has like an actual nail, like a carpenter's nail stuck in her forehead. And she keeps complaining about this headache. And he, the husband or the boyfriend keeps saying, I think it's probably the nail. If we. And she's like, it's not about the nail. And he's just like, I bet if we just pull that out. And she's just like, I just want you to listen to me. And he says, okay. And then she says, I just, you know, there's this pounding in my head and my days are really hard and every time. And all my sweaters have snacks in them. And you can just see his feeling of being like, bitch, it's the nail. And so he just goes, that's. That sounds really hard. Yeah. And she's like, thank you. And. But. So it really isn't a representation of, like, masculine and energy and masculine, feminine, energetic dynamics. Like, certainly it is. It would be stereotyped to say, like, men like to fix things, but it is not a stereotype. It's accurate to say the masculine likes to like structure and finality and completion where. And, you know, men are much less comfortable being in process. I like to be, you know, so this. This shows up for me everywhere, like in just even in terms of body work. My partner, Amanda, likes to go out and get, you know, she gets massages and they last like 60, 90 minutes. Like, I can't fucking imagine that. Like, I don't want a massage. I don't want to get rubbed. I need to get fixed. Find me an art guy who. Or, you know, someone who's going to put their knee in my back and crank me for 15 minutes, make it hurt, and then I need to be done with it. And so, you know, just the overwhelming urge to interject and fix things and just say, I know what you should do. That is a very masculine trait. And in the coaching space, it's often it gets more deeply ingrained because that's why people are hiring us to tell us how to fix it. And then, you know, now that I work with more women, often I have to, you know, I'm holding space, which is a very feminine. To just allow for the conversation. And that was something to learn. So for those looking for a takeaway, men or those who find themselves in the masculine, a great question to ask anyone when you're in conflict or when someone is upset is exactly what Peter just Said, are you, are you looking, you know, do you want to be heard or are you looking for solutions? Do you need comfort or solutions? Justin, how about you? Any emotions that you like, particularly felt were very present or weren't allowed to be present based on childhood experiences?

Yeah, it wasn't more so based at home, but just in the culture that I grew up in, in athletics. And I've touched on this before where I am a very emotional person. I have a very strong feminine side to my, to my, not to my body, but to my, to my emotional being. And by not being able to fully express that in sport, I often felt that I was trying to be somebody that I wasn't. And you put a mask on and you try to fit in in the cultural norms of what is told you to be acceptable and what makes you feel good and kind of, you end up being less of yourself and trying to be more of somebody else. And that obviously doesn't feel great.

So.

So that's kind of. That was my biggest experience and it wasn't until I truly owned it and became that true person that I was and dealt with the shunning or the bullying or whatever it is that you had to come across as a 14, 15, 16 year old that I was truly able to start owning it a little bit more in my early 20s and later on in life. So. So that was a big lesson that it came through to. But something I want to point out that's so unique is Brene Brown talks about that we have five main negative feelings that put us into a primitive state of being and three positive feelings that put us into a performance state of being. And those positive ones are love, joy and passion. And without us, this is not planned. It's nothing to do with that. John just came up with this question and asked everybody but the five things. Five core feelings that we feel that put us in a primitive state of being are fear, shame, guilt, pain and anger. And every single one of us touched on every one of those. And I find that so fascinating by a subjective group of five men who are talking about the hard feelings that they had to go through or not go through, as in younger parts of their life that have affected them either positive or negatively now or some other point of their life are those five shame, pain, guilt, fear and anger. And I just find that really interesting.

Yeah, I think, yeah, that's brilliant. I think that the crazy part is that societally those are the ones that men are encouraged to feel. Right? Like we're supposed to feel anger, we're allowed. It's like, you know, we're allowed to get big and angry. We're allowed to yell. We're not, you know, processing things. Whereas, like, when. When do you really see it represented men just experiencing pure joy other than in celebration of achievement.

Rare.

It's rare. Men can't just be happy. It's weird. It feel. It's like when the presentation of that doesn't occur. The only time you're allowed to experience joy is in the form of exaltation because of achievement.

And at the end of the day, what is the true win?

Joy, joy. Happiness. You know, what were the others? There was joy, joy, passion and love. Joy, passion, love. Men are allowed to experience love, but then once we get there, we can't, you know, we're not allowed to cry. We can't be. Can't be too, you know, can't be too emotional.

Can't be too emotional. Yeah.

One of the things I think destroys a lot of relationships is the way society has socialized men to make their mates. And I'll mostly just speak my own experience, like CIS hetero men, but to make their mates the sole recipient of all of their emotional weight, you know, particularly in, like, Western society, which is not just like, sexually monogamous, but it's also, like, socially monogamous. And you have to, like, actively separate to be like, hey, I'm going to go do these things with my friends tonight. And, you know, it's often just assumed that your partner will come with you, but because we don't, if we don't cultivate this, we can't put stuff with our friends. Right. Like, I'm very fortunate to have an amazing group of friends. Peter knows my best friend Chris quite well. Like, if I ever, like, I'm upset, like, I could just dump shit on Chris, and that's fine. But in most male relationships or in most heterosexual couples, the. The female partner becomes the sole recipient of all of that pressure for the man. And she becomes then, like more of a mother figure. And there is this term that I heard, I forget. His Instagram handle is the Angry Therapist. And it's called Moving from the Mouth to the Nipple. And it's essentially like the mouth is where you're kissing, but then you treat her like a mother and you're like a baby feeding at her. But if you think about the places where men feel safe to, like, be themselves, like, every single one of us in our partnerships talks in funny voices to their partner. I do. Like, I'm at the extent where not only do I talk to my dog, my dog is a voice that comes out of my mouth that I use to speak for her. And we have entire conversations. The number of people I do that with is very small, but Amanda is one of them. Like, you can be playful and joyous and cute with your partner, but if you can't do that anywhere else, then you, your inner child, will crave that and will constantly, like, dump that on her. And then it becomes difficult to be. To be in the masculine, to lead, to provide structure. And this, this is to the great detriment of so many romantic relationships, because it is difficult to want to fuck a person who's constantly talking like a baby, unless that's your thing, in which case, like, get after it. But what we need, what men need is relationships with other people where they can take those emotions and express them elsewhere so that when they come home or when they are showing up with their mates, they are not making that woman the sole recipient of their emotional burden. Because that can get very tiresome. And it can deepen, to some extent, intimacy, but it can erode sexual connection. And men are not taught this. Men are not taught that, like, dumping too much on someone is gonna. Like, it really is a challenge. And so what I think is so important is conversations like these among men. Like us to. Then everybody listening, every man listening. I want you to tonight, like, just reach out to one of your friends and just say, I love you. But next time you struggle with something difficult, you know, connect with your breath journal, just like Matt said, but take it somewhere else. Don't exclusively rely on your partner to be the person who works through this, because that can be very challenging for the both of you. I would. I would ask everyone, every one of us, like, who is one person in your life, a man, or even someone who's just not your partner, where you feel you can be like. Like totally yourself. Do you have a person like that, a place like that? We'll start with Pradeep. I'm curious.

Yeah, I have a couple of friends that I have and a couple of mentors as well. So whenever I want to vent, then I reach out to them. I'm very careful, because you talked about a point, because the masculine energy is an energy that lets go. The feminine energy is the one that absorbs. So for a man to vent, for example, that's not typically a masculine energy. A man to release it and just let it slide is the masculine energy. So we have to be aware of that. And when a woman sees a Man more in his feminine. When it comes to venting, that, like you said, that becomes a turn off because that feminine energy is looking for the masculine energy to feed off of, to kind of lead and direct in some ways. So I can see that.

But yeah.

And long story short, I do have a couple of buddies. Not all my buddies, because there's some of the guys that I just can't have these deep conversations with with. We've just never established that bond. We just have a different level. It's more at the masking level where we basically, we go, we have a good time, we discuss business, we discuss. Discuss other things, but not in deep, emotional conversations that we really express ourselves.

So that's great. Peter, how about you?

Yeah, so it's interesting you bring this up because this is something that I've been actively trying to work on last few years. It's been really challenging because obviously as you get older, especially, you know, if you're an entrepreneur or you, you know, you. You work from home like me, it's like you don't have a lot of opportunities to make these friendships. And so the short answer is no. And I think I'm not alone with, you know, in this with, you know, with what I've seen with a lot of my guys on my mailing list. You know, I get emails from them, really random things, and it made me realize that they're emailing me because they see me as a friend or someone that they can talk to, which is really interesting. But, yeah, I've been. It's. Over the last few years, I've been trying to reconnect with a lot of men that I used to work with or guys that I were friends with before that I kind of lost touch with. But it's been a process. Yeah, it is.

Yeah, it's really challenging. One of the hardest parts for me about moving out to Los Angeles is that I don't have. Have like a super tight network of guys out here, and we're in the middle of a pandemic. So it's like, hard to meet people. Yeah. But, you know, there was even a point in New York where I was like, bumble BFF trying to swipe for bros, because it's like I need. I want people to just, you know, being in a polyamorous relationship, it's. Most of my network turns into women because it's so much easier to find women who want to, like, go on dates with me than it is to just randomly meet bros who want to, like, go see a movie. And that becomes its own type of stressor. So I, you know, I just, I wish you luck, like finding those connections and encourage you to keep looking for them and everyone else out there. I think this describes, as Peter said, so many men who really need that, that container with other men. Matt, you provide that container in your coaching. Matt, do you have like a couple of people you lean on as well?

Yeah, actually, and that's a great point. When I came to Colorado, I was looking for that and for someone that has, you know, most of my closest friends are women, I was yearning for that masculine support. So I actually joined a men's group two years ago. And then I opened up my own men's group about a year ago and started facilitating that space. And it's been so, so powerful and it's, you know, the momentum that it's gained and what I've seen in men really needing that support because like you said, like leaning on their partner, they're realizing that it's no longer working and it's to the detriment of the relationship and they're like, I have to go elsewhere. So I think, you know, with the rising of men's groups and men's circles, you know, becoming more and more prevalent, it's powerful. And I'm very, very fortunate now to have a few men that I can call, you know, if I really need to just vent or just pour something onto, you know. But for so long it wasn't like that.

So yeah, I'm happy that you have that now. And Justin?

Yeah, I think I don't really have that in New York. And like you, I've moved around a lot, especially through sport. Is you kind of get these a lot of acquaintances. But in terms of really tight knit friendships, it's very few and far between, especially for men. And just like Peter said, the older you get, the more you don't work in a company or you own your own or you're doing your business, it's hard to find those. And you always go back to what you may have had as a kid or high school or whatever was the safe haven for you. So I want to touch on something really quick that's really interesting is in Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it puts relationships actually up higher in the pyramid where down below it's just your physiological needs, your shelter, your food, your water, stuff like that. But never has anybody developed a mental sickness or suicidal thoughts or any of those things from not having a, a shelter or not having a food or water. It comes from A lack of connection, it comes from a lack of those relationships of strength that allow you to express yourself, allow you to be who you want to be, allow you to feel safe, which ironically is his second peer on the hierarchy. So we can't overlook how important it is especially for men to have other men to rely on, have this group that you can be held up by and really have this tight knit group. And I think that to be honest, that's why we started. That was one of the big things, why we started the coaches council was to have a group that we could talk about a lot of these things that men struggle with and that go often unsaid or that lead to mental illness and suicidal thoughts or struggle in men at this very tough level that they really just don't want to talk about. So I love that we can all come on here, have these discussions, be open and honest about it and really help give some guidance and clarity to ways to eradicate that from some of people's lives.

So Justin, just on that point I want to add something. There's lots of psychological studies that have been done on longevity of life and actually happiness and they've shown that there's a number of things that impact people's levels of happiness. And the quality of relationships is the number one factor next to nature, next to spirituality, gratitude. It's a quality of relationships. And when they took a look at these villages or places, there's some in Europe, there's Japan is one place, some of the villages in Japan, in South Africa, is that here's the common denominator that they saw is the degree and the deepness and the quality of relationships of those people. So those guys in those villages, South Africa or South America, for example, or even when I was in Costa Rica, we visited some, you can say villages that had some of the oldest people in the world. You can say based on capita and their units, these men were well into the 90s and even hundreds. And the reason why they lived that long was because they had strong relationships with the people in the villages. There's something to be said there. It's not just from the feminine perspective or females. It's important for men as well. So if you want to live longer, have better relationships.

I love it, I love it. It's so true. It's so true. Rome, you want to bring her home?

Absolutely. So as we close our two parter on modern masculinity, we have discussed both the way that the external world and men's external, sort of for men, if you are anything other than a man. Right. But when you look at, when you look at boys being socialized on their way to manhood, that is a horrific gauntlet filled with a lot of pain and trauma and a lot of pressure. And I feel really, really great compassion for all young boys growing up in this society to be men. And I think it's our responsibility as men to ease that burden and to remove some of those obstacles along the way, to remove the need to compreh, constantly achieve and impress other people, to remove the constant fear of judgment and ridicule, to remove this thing inside you that makes you feel as though if you experience an emotion that somehow makes you less valid as a human being. And I think the conversation about the value of both the masculine and the feminine is the doorway into that greater conversation.

That's as always, thanks so much for listening, stay hungry, stay humble, and we'll see you next week. Thank you so much for joining us for another week of the coaches council. If it wasn't for you viewers and listeners, we wouldn't have a platform. So again, it's all about you guys and we want to give you a reward just for listening. We want to give you access to each one of our coaches for a little bit deeper, intimate experience. So if you go to coaches-counsel.com coaches-counsel.com subscribe and like to whatever platform you're viewing on, you're going to be entered to have that one on one experience. So be sure to go coaches-counsel.com and really interact with us because we would love to interact with you. Until then, stay safe, stay hungry, stay humble, and thanks for listening.