Coaches Council Podcast Episode 37: Do Hard Things with Jack Donovan

Man, I can rationalize my way out of anything. I'm really good at it, you know, like you, if you're smart, you can figure out a really good reason why you can't do something rather than just.

Saying, oh, this is really hard and take it for what it's worth. It's going to put you in an entirely different situation and entirely different state of mind to attack whatever comes next to make those future decisions.

Man, it's a lot of self awareness and I always forget that people aren't as self aware a lot of times.

This is the Coaches Council, made up of six elite coaches dedicated to serving and ending personal struggle for high performers in business, health and relationships. As a collective, we have built and helped build six, seven and eight figure businesses, dominate in multiple industries, coached and played in professional sports leagues and developed some of the strongest and most intimate relationships, relationships both professional and personal. This isn't your average podcast. It's for the hungry, the dedicated, the doers, for those that have a dream and truly want that dream to become reality. People who want to take action, leave their ego at the door and own every level of their life. If that's you, then step into the coach of counsel as we rewrite the truths to living that high performance life. Welcome back to another week of the Coaches Council. Pradeep, great to see you as always. Snowing in Toronto, I hear.

Yeah, lovely weather, man.

I hear you. It's a little south of the border here in New York City. If it was a little bit colder, it'd be snowing, but it poured rain for the last, call it 48 hours, so. But we're not here to talk about the weather. We've got the man who does a bunch of writing himself and it's Jack Donovan. If you haven't read any of his work, the Way of Men, a more complete beast, you name it. I don't know. How many books do you have, Jack?

Well, altogether, I mean, there's a lot, but you got the main three that you want to send people to, so that's good.

Yeah, no, it's a pleasure to have you here and you're doing so much work with men and really speaking to them in a really unique way. And what I want to talk about today is a lot of times with men, we hear excuses or we hear the obstacles or complaining as to why you can't, for lack of a word, man up or level up and accomplish things that you need to do for both your business, your family and your spouse, your kids. And it turns into this continual cycle of almost like a dog chasing its tail where you want something but you're not willing to put the work in to get there. And can you talk to it a little bit? I've watched so many of your videos that talk to this and it just spoke to me so much. But kind of talk to it a little bit about what it takes to be able to step up and truly be that man that that is able to create the change that fosters the results that we're truly looking for.

Well, you know, I think all that is a normal part of the process. You know, it's not like it's part of the decision making process. Right. You have to weigh all your pros and cons and it is a little bit easy. And especially, you know, there's, you know, there's kind of a sad sack guy who's going to complain about everything just because it's easy. And then there's a more complicated guy. And this happens with smart people. And I certainly do it is that man. I can rationalize my way out of anything. I'm really good at it. If you're smart, you can figure out a really good reason why you can't do something. At the end of the day, you have to have a talk with yourself. And I can give you an example from a personal life. Moved to Utah and where I was there wasn't a lot of opportunity in Oregon at the specific place that I was. And I'd been like, I have this house here, it's comfortable, everything's nice, whatever. I knew that I need to do this to grow my career and whatever. I need more contacts, everything like that. But I had all these reasons why I couldn't do it. And at the end of the day, I moved to Los Angeles the week after 9, 11 with $1,000 in the bank. I'm much better off now. The risks are much lower. I'll figure it out. Whatever happens, I'll figure it out. I finally just had to say that and put my house in the market. It sold in a week. Everything went well. But you beat yourself up for six months to make that decision, to decide whether it's the right time or the wrong time. And some people are better on jumping when decisions than other. But it's good to be cautious and weigh things back and forth. But I mean, ultimately life is short, right? You have to figure out what you actually want and realize that you're responsible for all the things that you could have done if you didn't take that choice. You don't want to say years later, well, I wish I wouldn't have stayed in that town where I barely knew anyone for 10 years because I could have been here doing this or that, the other thing, and I could have like had so many more things happening. And so you have to think about that because it is really easy to take the safe route. And you know, but obviously that's not going to get you anywhere. You know, everything, everything that's probably going to get you somewhere is a little bit uncomfortable and you kind of have to, I guess, lean into that. I hate saying that because I knew who came up with it. But you have to, you have to, you know, head in that direction.

What's the catalyst that quite often creates that movement for people? Because it's so easy, like you say, to stay where it's easier, stay where it's comfortable, stay where it's warm, and not push yourself to that level of getting to that certain discomfort. But what is that catalyst that people can look for, that people can reach to or maybe even start to initiate?

Man, it's a lot of self awareness and I always forget that people aren't as self aware a lot of times.

It's amazing.

It really is amazing. I heard from actually another coach the other day that I guess half his clients lie to him and say ridiculous stuff all the time. Really? That happens? That's a thing? Because I can't really imagine doing that. But again, the catalyst has to be what you want for your life. And realizing that there's a sense of urgency. There's a sense of urgency about your life and about the things that you want. And they're not going to be there forever and your opportunities aren't going to be there forever. So you have to strike where you can. If you want to make a mark on the world in some way or just do the things that you need to do for your family or whatever, you have to push yourself out of that comfort zone constantly. And it's a constant battle with everything. I guess one of the things that you can initiate is everybody says you have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. I mean, that's kind of the thing that gets tossed around a lot. And it's true. Obviously, if you are putting yourself in situations that are dangerous in some way which make you uncomfortable, but you know that are probably good for you. If you do it all the time, you're going to be more likely to do it. You're going to be more comfortable taking those kind of risks because you'll know that you're like, oh, hey, I did that. And I was, okay. So, you know, I just. It's. Everything is putting one foot in front of the other. You know, start. Start by doing something you have to, you know, that's uncomfortable. And then, you know, the next thing will come a little bit easier. I mean, I like. And it's a constant process. Like I said, I'm at a new city. I have to start a new martial arts gym. It's like, oh, bodies, a whole bunch of strangers. You know, like, I have to, like, start all over again and prove myself to all these different guys and what. And. But, you know, I know that if I don't do it, all right, well, I'm never going to progress, and I guess I'm just never going to get better and probably going to get a lot worse. So, you know, that's what you have to do.

Well, it's funny you say that, Jack, because you're talking about. Do people lie to coaches? I think a lot of people lie to themselves. It seems like they just tell themselves a lot of stories.

Right?

You're talking about excuses and rationalization. I have to ask you a question. What motivated you to write your books? Like, what drives you to write and share your message?

Well, you know, I think. And this is a. This is one thing that you can't teach people, I think, is that some people have a drive in them, that they want to be somebody and they want to do something, and so they're driven. I actually read this personality test the other day, which is kind of wacky, but a few of my friends did it, and they all found it was very accurate. It's based on your birthday, so it's like a horoscope, but it's like whether you're a generator. It's like whether a generator or a reflector or whatever. And I came up as a generator, which made sense. You know, like, I've always. I always say I'll never get bored. I mean, I will never get bored. I don't understand how boredom is possible unless you're like, have to stand in line for something, you know, because I have a million projects, I will never complete them all in my lifetime. So I have that going for me in the fact that I always have things that I want to do. And it's just a matter of finding the money to do, you know, or finding the time to do them or finding the skills to do them or whatever when choosing between them, because there's only so much time and money and skills and whatever. So, you know, some people have that drive, and then some people, you know, like, don't have an innate drive to just, you know, go out there and get it and be something. But obviously to be somewhat successful in the world, they have to train himself to do that, you know, if they want to have a better lifestyle. Not necessarily go out and talk about. You know, a lot of people thank me for writing my books because they don't want to do it. You know, I'm saying things that they think, but they don't want to be the guy under fire. You know, like saying that all day. You know, I do. You know, like, that's. And I have my limits, too. I have arguments, I have fights that I will not pick because I don't want to be that guy in that room having that conversation. But, you know, there is a comfort level that I'm. That I have and that I want to do, and I want to be. I like being a public figure. I've been a public figure in some way since, like, 2007. And so that's. This is my job. But, you know, a lot of people don't have that job to be out in front. And a lot of guys who are out in front actually don't understand that. They don't understand. They think that everyone wants to be them. And that's not true. You know, everybody. Lots of people just want to be. Get stuff done, have a good life, support their families, have nice things, make mark on the world in some other way, in the people in their lives, and that's cool, too. But no matter what, you have to, obviously do what we were talking about, you still have to push yourself out of your comfort zone and do all that.

What would three of those top things that push the envelope be for you? Three of those things that you talk about regularly in your books that people commend you for?

I get a lot of people really like the idea that there's a difference between being good at being a man and being a good man. And that's a separation I thought was necessary because most books about masculinity, up until I wrote the Way of Men, but often still have a certain flavor of morality to them. And so they want to talk about being a good man, which is good. I want to hang out with good guys. But at the same time, masculinity is a thing on its own. And if you can't look at it amorally, you probably aren't understanding it completely. And so from a philosophical level, that was something that I saw actually in another author's work and then I had taken apart and did it myself. And that's a chapter in the Way of Man that I think is really important for a lot of people because they were like, it's a good line for them. Like, hey, being a good man, that's one thing. Being good at being a man is another thing. You know, knowing how to shoot somebody is what is one thing. Knowing when to shoot somebody is another one. You know, like it's there. There's two different things to talk about there. And you know, just because you were one doesn't mean that you're the other. And. And so that I think that that's really important. Obviously, a lot of people talk about the tactical virtues for the way. From the way of Ma and the way I broke it down in terms of evolutionary psychology and the idea that men are trained by each other and masculinity is really something in many cases that we do to prove each other, to prove ourselves to a group of men. And it reflects, I think, from an evolutionary perspective what we needed from each other in rough times, which were most times up until recently and maybe again soon, the way things are going. But, you know, so I think that the tactical virtues are something that people have really stuck with. And I guess a lot of people have gotten my slogan from becoming a barbarian. You know, life is conflict, peace is death. They've gotten that tattooed on them and all kinds of things. So I guess that's important to a lot of people this, because it is, you know, like, obviously if you're not, if you're rest, conflict means you're not resting. You know, if you're having to struggle with something, it means you're doing something. And that's, that's where the story is. I always say, like you. Any story about a utopia is inherently boring until it. Until it's something bad happens. You know, like there, there are, you know, like in the future, you know, like, okay, imagine like, you know, Star Trek or whatever. Like they. They're all like. They've figured out all of society' problems, but they still have to go out and fight something because otherwise it's a boring story. You know, like without conflict, life isn't very interesting. There is no. There is no plot, you know, So I think a lot of people that resonated with a lot of people as well.

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Exactly. Kind of a. Kind of a seize the day mentality, I guess, is what you're saying. Yeah, no, I mean, that's 100% true. And I mean, like you said, if people who don't know what the first step is, I feel like you'd have to be really not self aware. And that is a thing. But there's some stuff that you've been avoiding, you know, I don't care who you are, there's some stuff that you've been avoiding and there are some things that you're like, well, you know what? I just don't need to do that. And I'm comfortable with not doing that. And we all have those things. And I have things on my list of like, no, I'm good. That never happens in my life. I'm solid with that. You know, I need to jump out of a plane that I don't need to. Not necessarily. But, you know, for some people, you know, like, you always have a list of things and some of them are things, like I said, you settled on. And other things are like, you know, you probably should do them. And I think that's a lot of what coaching is. I think actually is that from what I've heard from other people, a lot of times when you're giving people advice, you're telling them what they already know. You know, you already know probably what you should be doing, but you want some confirmation about it. And I look for that in my friends as well. You know, like there's. You kind of know what you've been avoiding. You kind of know what you probably. Here's two or three choices that I probably could make, but I'm kind of scared of them. And those are the ones. Yeah. See the day. As you were saying, grab those.

Yeah, I think you just kind of nailed the. Well, hit the head on the nail on that one. Because even in the coaching space, what a lot of people are looking for is permission. And it's funny. And Jack, maybe you find that with the people that you come across. Do you find that even as guys, as independent or as tough as they seem to be, that they still need permission, that there's still something that they're seeking?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't coach people specifically. I just run into people and talk to. Talk to guys. But yeah, I mean, we all. I mean, you know, there's a little validation, like, do you think I'd be good at that? You know, like, you know, people want to know, like, do you think I could do that? Like, am I fooling myself? You know, we all want a little bit of feedback. Like, this seems like a good idea, right? This isn't, like, just totally ridiculous, you know, and, you know, and a lot of times, yeah, I mean, I'm looking for permission from people, too. I mean, I. Like, yeah, I've talked to one of the coaches I was thinking of. I was at conference recently, and he's telling me, like, oh, I could flip you these clients or whatever. Like, they know who you are, and they think you're awesome. And I'm like, I don't know if I could do that. I don't know. Do you think I could do that? You know, like, we all. I think we all do that a little bit. So.

Yeah, I hear you on that one. I find that quite a bit. I think, even for myself. Sometimes I question myself. I'm like. And then someone, you know, affirms it or confirms it, I'm like, okay, then I'll actually move forward. So I think that's a big piece of a lot of people's lives for you. I'm actually curious, like, what's your next step? Like, what's the next big challenge that you're taking on that you have in mind right now?

Well, I mean, all the physical stuff is old stuff that I'm just, you know, that's the other thing is after you get the first, you do physical stuff, and then you've already done it, but you have to keep doing it, or you just turn into a pile of garbage. Right? So it's not like I've never squatted 405, but it's been a while, so I'm working on that right now. So I need to go back through that process because. Build some more muscle, but in a bigger, much bigger sense. I have a new book that I've been working on for a year or so. I mean, I was trying to make myself look at it, work on it this morning. But also posting Instagram stories and wasting all kinds of time, because that's basically my writing process. And so I'm working on that, and it'll come out this year. And, like, a jump that I'm thinking about this morning, this is what I was going through. I'm like, I really want an office space. I hate working at home. I hate it. I'm like, I could rent an office space. That's a big overhead. That's an extra house payment, really. But I could do it. And then I could have a place where I could have people meet and I play better place to film and all kinds of stuff like that. So that's a big thing I'm kicking around. And the new book that's coming out is really its own philosophy of life. And I don't want to say a new religion because it's not meant in a religious way, although you could take it in that direction. And I probably will. I'll probably do some ritual things because I do that kind of thing. But, you know, it could be taken as, you know, on an intellectual level or beyond that. And that's a whole big project to roll out really, like, you know, to get this out and to make people connect with it and to see what I'm saying. Because I think I have something good or I wouldn't be writing a book, right? I think I have something good that no one else is saying quite the way I'm going to say it. And so then there's this huge project of getting that out into people's heads and then managing that if it's out into people's heads and then they want to have events, and then I have to figure out how to do events, and I have to do. Create all this content to, like. So it's this big thing, you know, that's out there and it's exciting. But also. Yeah, I mean, it's something that's sitting out there waiting for me to finish this book. So who knows? Maybe I'm procrastinating, but it'll get done by the end of the year for sure.

What does your day consist of? To show up like you do every single day.

Right now. I mean, I think in moving recently, because, I mean, sitting here in my garage with a whole bunch of boxes. And I'm not supposed to tell you that because I'm in my library with many lizard.

I was just about to say that is the background and a half with boxes.

I love it. I suck at this illusion. But I just didn't have space for my bookcase in my house. But so, you know, I was thinking a lot about, well, what is home? As you move and you get settled, a new place, I'm like, well, I need. I need a routine again. So I feel like things are normal and get back to, like, some kind of routine. And so I'm like, you know, finding the gym that I'm gonna go to and finding, you know, the several gyms I'm gonna go to. Really? I mean, that's kind of A big part of my life. So, I mean, as things roll out, I mean, I've started at this one powerlifting gym where I know a lot of people and have made a whole bunch of contacts already that I couldn't have made in my small town, which is exactly why I moved here. I've walked in and gotten recognized there already. I mean, like, it's, that's why I'm here. And, and then this other gym, the martial arts gym, I start there on Monday and so that'll become the process. And then there's this other gym with some friends of mine who are really intellectual. It's like there's, you know, there's like art photography on the walls and then it's kind of a gym sometimes. You know, it's, it's a, it's, it's kind of a high level thing. And so, you know, I've gone there a couple times and had long conversations with all that, with those guys and whatever. And so a lot of my days, obviously, yeah, I want to get some writing done in the morning because I'm a morning writer. The people that can drink and then write it like two in the morning. I don't know how to do that. That's, that's not. I have to get up early while my mind's kind of weird and then start writing. And then usually I'm done by about two and then the rest of the day is usually either dealing with things like this, because this is my job, doing kind of appearances and calling into things and whatever because that's what promotes my work. So that's a lot of my work. So whenever I do something like this, this is what I consider part of my work. And then, yeah, going to the gym and making contacts and then doing photography obviously for Instagram and all that kind of stuff and designing things. I do a lot of stuff. I do a lot of weird, different stuff that. Because I kind of do every. I can do everything. So it's a lot of everything. You know, eventually that's one of my challenges, I think, for as I get further along this game is I probably need a business partner and I probably need to outsource more things. Like, well, I could redesign that website. So maybe I will. I'll edit that video. So maybe I will, you know, and that's probably not always the best use of my time. But we always have to. Like I said, you figure out this stuff. It never ends. As the challenges get bigger, you have new things to figure out and new things to overcome.

You're playing your game. Nobody else can win Jack's game like Jack can win Jack's game.

I wouldn't even know how to tell him to do it.

I love it. Sneak peek into the book that's coming out. What's one thing that you are super excited about that's going to excite the audience?

Well, I came up with names for three new gods, so I guess there's that. You can't create a new religion. Hold my beer. But no, I'm really excited about it because basically, I think my big concept for the book is that we can. We're at this place of history where we can see everything. And that's never happened before. You know, the Library of Alexandria is garbage compared to what I can get on my phone. You know, like, everything, all the knowledge that the world has ever had, we have access to. And so we can see things that other people can't see. And that's why, like, in terms of philosophy and religion and spirituality and all these other things, it becomes very confusing because we can see everything and we can see how one thing turned into another thing and turned into another thing and how all these things evolved. And, you know, if you're in a village in Germany, like, you know, a thousand years ago, or you're in the Middle east somewhere or in Russia, that was not the case. You got what you got within, like, about as far as you could walk for the rest of your life. That was all that you saw and understood. So we can see everything. And so our approach to spirituality and ideas, and I focus specifically on male spirituality and philosophy because that's what I write about. And so our approach to those things has to be different and has to take all of that into account. So a lot of what I've done has combined all these things. Like, you know, like, there's all these father figures in the sky. Like, they're all kind of the same. Let's talk about them as, like, they're the same guy. Because it's just a whole bunch of people with different names for the same thing and the same thing. Like, there's this warrior. There's always been warriors. The story of the hero is the story of every hero. And let's talk about it in terms of. So I call that guy the striker because it comes from a proto Indo European word called perkonos, means to strike. And then the third one is the lord of the earth. Because we all need to do things that perpetuate. And that's usually your pastoral gods and things that you have to do to, you know, keep the farm going, keep, keep your relationships going, you know, all the, all the things that are just work, you know. And so I think those concepts are pretty exciting. And so I can't wait to get them out there and then and have people respond to them and see where that goes.

I love it. I love it. So guys, if you're taking a look and you're thinking, man, I'm stuck, I don't know where to go. My relationship, your business, your life in general, it's really about doing the hard things, stepping up, manning up, doing something that brings you back around to really that true inner purpose of what it is that you were put here on this earth to do. And the harder you do things, the more uncomfortable you get. The more comfortable you get being uncomfortable, the faster you're going to realize that true purpose and how far you truly can go. Because if we don't push the envelope, we just sit in it. And our life was not built to sit.

Another thing that you can do to add to that as an action item is that what's really helpful is to put yourself in a space where you're surrounded by guys who've always done the thing that you want to do. It's like, I need to be surrounded by million dollar businessmen because they've already done the thing that I'm like, oh, what do I, how do I do this? How do I need to hire a lawyer? What do I. And they're like, well, yeah, you just go down to that guy and that's what you do. So they'll make it seem easy rather than making it seem hard. Because if you're starting by yourself and you don't know what to do, you need to surround yourself with guys who have been there and done that and that'll help give you confidence and push you in the right direction and maybe stop you from going in the wrong direction as well.

Save you time, save you money, save you energy. Because at the end of the day, what are we all made of? Energy. It's all we got. All three of those things are non renewable sources that they're finite and the more we can save it, the more we can optimize it, the more we can perfect it, the more successful we're going to be with that. Guys, stay hungry, stay humble and we'll see you you next week. Thank you so much for joining us for another week of the coaches council. If it wasn't for you viewers and listeners, we wouldn't have a platform. So again it's all about you guys. And we want to give you a reward just for listening. We want to give you access to each one of our coaches for a little bit deeper, intimate experience. So if you go to coaches then counsel.com coaches counsel.com subscribe and like to whatever platform you're viewing on. You're going to be entered to have that one on one experience. So be sure to go coaches-cell.com and really interact with us because we would love to interact with you. Until then, stay safe, stay hungry, stay humble, and thanks for listening.

Sat.