#252: Antony Arena, CEO at Unbnd Group, an Immersive Technology Creative Agency and the Creator of Aura, the Future of Interactive Mobile Entertainment

Welcome to Just Go Grind, a show that focuses on helping you launch and grow a business and navigate the ups and downs of entrepreneurship. I'm your host, Justin Gordon, and in this episode we have Anthony Arena, CEO of Unbound Group, which is a group of digital and communications businesses specializing in cutting-edge technologies including virtual, augmented, and mixed reality, beacon applications, haptics, AI, and machine learning while keeping an eye on what's coming tomorrow. You can find out more about the tech which we talk about in this episode at thisisaura.com. This is aura.com. Some incredible things they're doing with their tech. You have to check it out. Go to the website, thisisaura.com, to find more about that. If you want to see more on the agency side, go to unbnd.com.au. And then also, as you'll find out in this episode, he has a number of restaurants. You can find out more about them at Lala.net.au. In this episode, we go through how this all got started—the agency, the tech behind the product they're creating, how we got an early partnership with the NBA and also Rakuten, the various applications for Unbounce technology, how we secured other partnerships along the way, creating the MVP, building the team, and so much more in this episode. As always, these show notes are at justgogrind.com/podcast, and you can support the show by leaving a rating and review over in Apple Podcasts. I'd very much so appreciate that. Without further ado, here is Anthony Arena, CEO of Unbound. Anthony, welcome to the show.

Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

Yes, and thanks for coming on. And Unbound, a pretty exciting company after I saw a video from, from our friend that introduced us and then looked into it a bit more. Tell people what you're doing with Unbound.

Well, it is a long journey, but—

We'll get there.

You probably hear that a lot. We've created a technology. It's a very different kind of content distribution platform that runs on mobile, the web, in VR, and connected TV. And it's a really different interface that gives a lot of power to the end user to be able to control how they're consuming content. In essence, the platform marries together whether it be live or on-demand content and data. So think about some of the initial work we did was with the NBA. So imagine you're watching an NBA game and you can then switch to different games really easily. There's a betting integration, e-commerce, fantasy league, advertising sponsorship. If you're on mobile, we can dynamically switch the phone into an augmented reality mode in a break and play, and you can deliver an AR experience. So it's kind of an aggregator of all of these complementary data sources that get married to the content and delivered in a really different way. Pretty cool. We have a pretty cool interface. It's really intuitive.

With this as well, obviously it being such a long journey, as you mentioned, over years here, how'd this first start though, Anthony?

Look, my background was I worked in— I studied communications and economics at university. I worked in advertising agencies predominantly as a strategic planner and then into management of a large publicly listed group in Australia. So I was kind of trained to really think about how an audience will consume a product or service, a message, technology, sort of whatever it might be. So one of the things I'm good at is is really kind of putting myself in the shoes of someone else about how they might experience something. And after the financial crisis in sort of 2008, 2009, I ended up moving cities and I set up— I took a job actually lecturing at a university in marketing strategy, and then I set up a consultancy which has become Unbound. So we started off in communication strategy. It sort of grew very, very quickly into a creative agency and then more into a digital agency and we became kind of a bit more high-tech. If I'm being honest, I found it a little soul-destroying at some point sitting in a boardroom talking about click-through rates.

Yeah.

There's so much more tech out there that we can kind of play with. So this is around 2014. And so I grabbed the whole company at that time. There's about maybe 17 people and flew everybody from Australia to LA. And I set up a bunch of meetings over there. So we met with YouTube and Google, Snapchat, a bunch of sort of cutting-edge digital and media agencies. And they graciously hosted us. And I said to those, every company we went to, I said, guys, what's the next big thing? What do you think? do you think is coming next? And they all said VR. Every single one of them said VR at that point. And so we had a go of some stuff, and I remember thinking there's a novelty to it, it's pretty cool, but there was a bit of a red flag for me, which was the— all of the experiences were 360 video. And that kind of planner part of my brain was like, it feels like we're kind of misleading the audience. You know, if the industry is called virtual reality and the experience doesn't replicate reality, I think you've got a problem.

Hmm.

And, you know, in 360 video, you can look around, but you can't move through the space. You can't interact and engage with the environment. And, um, and I remember thinking, that's, that's a— that's going to be a big issue here. But either way, I was still kind of, you know, impressed by it. And so we came back to Australia and the whole company was you know, pretty inspired and motivated. And, uh, and so we, we hired a couple of people that, you know, knew what they were doing in that VR space, and just to some degree. And, you know, that was still very early. And one of the guys was like, look, people are starting to build VR experiences on top of video game engines. And I was like, okay, let's have a look at that. So he kind of put something together for us to have a look at, and, and it was really cool. I really enjoyed it because It gave you that sense of reality where you could interact and engage with the environment. So, we started to invest into that just with— we got a couple of people on board and a bit of R&D, sort of testing some stuff. And then, we got pretty good at it. And we were using the Unreal Engine initially. It was more expensive than Unity, which is the other main engine out there.

Yeah.

And more expensive, harder to find people. Took longer to build stuff, but the end product was a bit better at that point. They're pretty equal now. And if not, maybe Unity might even be a tiny bit better for some things and Unreal is better for others. So we got on the radar of some clients and we built some really cool stuff for some top-tier global brands. A lot of fashion brands were pretty early. We did work with Cartier, Yeah, it was wild. And so these guys were like— and now the work we were doing was basically in-store activations. And they said, how do we distribute this content to the masses? And so I start looking, I'm like, that's interesting. Let's have a look at what's out there from a global content distribution for immersive experiences. And there were 4 companies that were doing sort of that platform side of things. All in the US. I flew over and met with all of them, and every single one of them had built their technology on 360 video. And I remember thinking that this is an opportunity here because I think once you're that heavily invested into— this is kind of the, you know, I'll show my age here, but the old VHS and beta, you know.

Oh yeah.

So you've got to back the right horse. And I think where that probably came from was a lot of these guys in these companies early on had production— they had worked in production companies. That was their background. So it was very natural for them to move into a 360 video space because they didn't really understand the tech or the kind of that, especially those video game 3D engines. pretty kind of, you know, technical pieces of kit. So, you know, I met these guys and then we came back and I said, all right, we're going to start building our own, um, our own distribution platform for immersive content built on top of Unity. So, so that's what we began to do. Um, you know, in, in terms of— I don't normally share this with a lot of people, but in terms of the entrepreneurial journey, I had a wild ride because My wife had worked many, many years in hospitality marketing for these large hospitality groups. So she knows what she's doing in that space. And we had a little bit of money saved. And so I kept Googling. I knew if we were going to build tech, we're going to need cash.

Yeah.

So I was literally Googling best cash flow businesses and bars kept coming up. And so We built a bar and—

What?

Yeah. And it went so unbelievably well. It paid us back in 8 weeks and then we just made profit after that. And so we took— so we let that run and then we got the money from that and we built another bar and then we did another bar. And now at one point we had 6 bars in the group. We've got 5 now. We sold one of them. They turn over nearly $10 million a year and they funded a lot of us building out this tech in the early days. So, I mean, it's weird. Yeah, it's funny.

I have so many questions.

That was the plan and it worked, but I would not recommend that to anybody.

Especially now.

It's pretty weird. But when I think about it now, I'm like, oh my God, we were crazy. But it worked. Hold on.

We have to go through that. The thinking of that. Okay. So this is in the beginning, right? So 2014, 2015, around that time?

Yep.

So you want cash flow business to fuel this. Did you not consider raising capital? Was that just not an option? Not something you've ever seen? Like, what was your thought around that?

I think I was pretty naive to it at that point about what was possible and how you could do it. And I think certainly, look, in Australia, the culture is really changing. There's a lot of VCs that have popped up here just in the last few years.

Sure.

But I don't know if that was necessarily the case back then, but I've always been the person— this comes from my parents. My dad immigrated to Australia. I was born here, obviously, and he just worked. He was a bricklayer. He worked 7 days and his whole thing for me growing up is, you don't buy anything if you can't afford it.

Yeah.

He's like, you know, you're obviously going to have to get a mortgage at some point to buy a house and whatever else. But all this other stuff, he's like, go work, save your money, buy something, you know? And I think it's not— that's not exactly how things work, but I think that type of mentality was certainly helpful with— I mean, even with our bars, like against every piece of financial advice I got, which was like, you borrow the money to do a fit out because then you can claim it back on tax and blah, blah, blah. And I was just like, I want to be able to walk away if it goes badly. I want to be able to say, okay, well, I lost that money. I don't owe the bank. My house isn't on the line. I can just, I can go and do something else. And that was the mindset. And you know what? When COVID happened, that was an absolute blessing for us, right? Because we were able to, obviously there was lots of lockdown and, sorry, restrictions and lockdowns and things like that. And we were able to survive quite easily because we didn't have any debt in the businesses. And so we could just kind of shut the doors. We did our best to take care of staff. And, you know, and ride it out.

Well, that's just wild. First of all, Anthony, yeah, what an interesting way to go about things. And you were successful within the bars as well. And that fueled the business early on. Take me through then. You mentioned the NBA partnership, for instance, was one of the earlier ones. How did that come about?

So, well, to take one little step back, I mean, we got on the radar of a publicly listed media company in Australia. They— we— one of the things that we did some R&D on from a tech perspective when we were looking at VR was also Bluetooth beacons. And they had spoken to us about— we built a Beacon CMS. I mean, actually, I put a lot of time and effort and money into that. I've never used it. I've got the tech still. It's actually quite cool, the platform, but I never did a single thing with it because we got really distracted with the VR stuff. But they were aware that we had that, and I knew a guy that worked there. And so he said, what are you working on at the moment? And well, actually, the true story of that was they spoke to me about the beacon tech and they said, we're going to go this path or that path. And I said, I know how this stuff works. If you go that path, it's not going to work. And obviously the path that I wanted them to take was our path. And I said, then it will work. And very amicably. And then they went the other path and then it didn't work. And then he came back to me, said, yeah, okay, it didn't work. And I said, well, we're not really doing that type of stuff anymore. He's like, well, what are you doing now? And I said, well, we're pretty into VR and just sort of checking out what's possible there. So, I went in, he organized for me to go and pitch into the management and they said, well, you're building this platform. I'm like, yeah. And they're like, well, do you want investment? And I'm like, sure. It went like that. And so, I pitched to the board. It went really, really well. They ended up buying a chunk of the company off of me and then investing into it quite a substantial amount of money, all up about $14 million. And so I can touch on that a little bit later. So I was really lucky with those guys in particular, and I still have a great relationship with them. Where we had a slight point of conjecture with those guys is they were a media company. They wanted us to build our tech out to be direct to consumer.

Yeah.

So to go and acquire rights, um, and that we could push through, and then, you know, and then we'd monetize that through advertising and subscription, whatever. And it was purely around VR. And so I, I knew we were going to need a global brand, um, that, you know, gave us instant credibility in the marketplace, like globally, to be able to, to get, you know, more rights in or, you know, attract other, other people in, in that global sense. So And I look, and I'm a fan of the NBA. That probably helps as well.

It helps if it's your business and you're a fan, why not?

So, you know, this will, this will probably end quite nasty, you know, to what your podcast is called. But man, I just went to LinkedIn and I just tried to find who I thought was the appropriate person. And then they said to me, like someone got back to me finally said, oh yeah, look, you're in Australia. So you got to deal with these guys in Hong Kong. And I'm like, cool, who do I speak to there? And they put me in touch with someone and So I spoke to her and then I kind of dragged on and dragged on and dragged on. And then I got in touch with the next person and then the next person. And then 2 years later, I got the deal done with them, but it took me 2 years to get into the NBA, to get over to New York. I mean, yeah, I mean, if anyone from there kind of was to hear this podcast, I'd kind of giggle because they said to me, I'm the most persistent human being they've ever met. I literally flew to America to pitch them for like 20 minutes.

Jeez.

And well, they said, no, no, no, like, you know, you're in Australia, that's fine. I'm like, guys, I'm gonna be there anyway. I've got these other meetings. I'll just come and show you the stuff while I'm there. And they're like, oh, okay, if you're gonna be here, then come. And that was a complete lie. I just flew there for that. And because I knew I wanted to get in front of them face to face, I wanted to show them the tech, I wanted them to have a go of it. And it worked. You know, they're like, wow, this is really, really cool stuff.

In that time, so it took you 2 years to get to that point with the MBA, obviously being incredibly persistent. And yes, just go grind. That's the way— I mean, some people are shocked by how long I've been persisting on some podcast guests that have literally taken the same amount of time, which is kind of insane to think about. But with that then in those 2 years, I mean, what were you doing? Still building out the tech at that point getting to the MBA? Or did you have other people on board as well? In terms of customers.

So at that point, we still had the agency business. So this was being born out of that agency business. So that also supported us financially and we had plenty of other stuff to do. You know what I mean? I had the investment, we were building out the tech more and more and more. I was building the team to do that with the investment money. So yeah, we were never short of things to do.

Yeah. I mean, at that point, if you have an agency and you're building out this tech, that's a lot to do. Then from the NBA, and obviously you had the media company as well that invested and took a part of the company. The NBA from there, where did things go after that? After that partnership was secured, how'd that change the business and the tech behind it?

Look, I think we were sort of lucky and unlucky. I'm trying to think of the right way to put it. So as we were building the tech out, we secure a deal with the NBA. And at the same time, the investor that we had had a change of board quite dramatically at that board level. So the new board comes in and says— I had a great relationship with the old board. The new board comes in and says, yeah, we're not interested in any of these digital investments anymore. So, they had 5 investments of which Unbound was one of them. So, they said, oh, well, we want to exit. And we had literally signed the NBA deal 7 or 8 weeks beforehand.

Jeez.

Yeah, it was really, really full on. I mean, people I talk to now are like, man, your company had a near-death experience. It's true.

Yeah. Really though.

What I guess was lucky is when we did the deal with the NBA, the NBA wanted the media company to provide a guarantee that that deal would be paid for. So, that kind of put those guys on the hook. to support us to some degree. And it got a bit full-on in those negotiations. Now, I should say, I mean, I got the impression that the management didn't really want to exit us. I had a really good relationship with those guys, but the board were just going in a different direction. So, I had to work with those guys to try and work out. They put in all this money into the business. It was like, how How is this going to work out? And look, long story short, without getting crazy into the detail, I was very lucky. I had an investor come out of the woodwork and said, look, I'll back you. Just someone I knew personally. He said, I love what you're doing. I really like you as a person. I'll back you to help exit this deal. So, he gave me a little bit of money to kind of help out there. And then, basically, the media company, for the most part, walked away. I had committed to, as part of their exit, that I would take a loan into the business for everything that they had given us, but certainly, but it was like kind of cents on the dollar. what they put in. So I got the equity back very, very cheaply, but I still had the MBA deal and it was quite expensive and I had to deal with that. So where that stunted us massively was we're about to launch this direct-to-consumer product with MBA and then I have no marketing budget. I had nothing sort of to work with. And so What we really had to do was think about how we had tech, we had content, we would engage certainly not as big an audience as what we wanted to, but what learnings could we take out of it? And so, I think I'd mentioned before, maybe I didn't, but they wanted us to be direct-to-consumer. I'd always thought we were a B2B business where we'd take our tech and integrate it and license it to other rights holders.

Yeah.

So I switched the business very, very quickly to doing that and knowing that we wouldn't really have the money to be able to run that as a proper direct-to-consumer product. So we did our best with that well and truly, but I went and started hustling pretty hard to see what other opportunities were out there for us to get into other clients to start to generate revenue on licensing our tech.

I was just gonna say from that then, I mean, what were the avenues you're pursuing in terms of the types of customers you're looking at to license your tech? Because there's obviously a number of different applications you, you could have in theory with this.

What route should you go? There's so many applications. I mean, look, I focused on sport just because, you know, I mean, one of the good things we got from our relationship with the NBA was that there's a bit of cred that comes with that. Like, you say to people you're working with the NBA and it opens doors very, very quickly. So I focused on top-tier global sporting leagues and codes, and we started to get some interest and some traction. I mean, this is only in the last few months really of this year. It all came to a head really the beginning of this year. Yeah, I go and chase all these different sporting codes around the place. I went to the NBA All-Star Game in Chicago and over there I met a lady. She's from Rakuten, which is like a very large Japanese company, huge Japanese company.

Yeah.

And so Rakuten own 100% of the NBA rights in Japan. So we get talking, I show her our tech and she says, wow, this is really cool. She's like, we're about to launch later in the year, we're launching a 5G network in Japan. And I think there's some interesting— because our stuff is predominantly mobile. She said that this could be interesting. Let me send it to the CTO. I said, okay, yeah, go for it. So I sent her some stuff, she sent it on and nothing happened and I didn't hear back. And then I kind of sort of bugged her a little bit that persistence was coming back and she's like, look, I haven't heard back. He's really busy. So I knew who he was and I'd hit him. I'd sent him a LinkedIn request as well. So eventually then we did another POC with F1. And so I just sent him a video of that to say, hey, just want to give you an update on LinkedIn. This is kind of what we're doing now. And he watched that and then he wrote straight back to me and just said, I'm setting up a call for tomorrow. And I went, okay, great. And so, I mean, this was like 3 months later or whatever. So I had a call with him and he's just like, what else have you got? And so I showed him all the stuff that we were working on and he was just like, man, this is unbelievable technology. He's like, I'm sold. I want to work with you. How do we make this happen? So we start talking about what a deal looks like and a couple of proof of concepts. So we ran a POC for Rakuten during the NBA bubble using their NBA content. We built in some new features. I love it. There's some great kind of lost in translation with people speaking different languages, but they had said to me, can you build in text chat. That's what— those were the words that they used. And I was like, yeah, I think we can build that into our environment. That's cool. Let's have a look at that. So I go to my guys and I said, my tech guys, and I said, guys, they want us to have chat functionality. And they went, oh, okay, cool. So they're like, we'll start looking at that now. 4 weeks later, I mean, I've got a really good tech team. They're really cool guys. Not only did they build in text, They interpreted my chat functionality as full video and audio. So basically Zoom built in. So now you can, on a mobile screen, you double tap the screen, it goes from a 2D view into a 3D environment where you can see the content, you can see the stats, you can see all the VOD, everything else, and you've got a video of all of your friends there and you can see and talk to them while you watch a game. So they built that into our environment in 4 weeks. Unbelievable. So we've run that with those guys into the Japanese market and just the metrics that we got out of it were just phenomenal. So we built in, we have full e-commerce capability. So we built an AI module where the system will listen to the game, link that with the stats in real time, work out who's playing well, and then highlight their jersey for sale or whatever. It could be their shoes or other things. We were getting like one product click, like literally click on a product every 22 seconds of video.

Oh, geez.

Pretty wild. Yeah. I mean, this is only a few weeks ago, so we're still working on this and taking this to market, but it was pretty impressive kind of metrics. So all of a sudden, the CTO from Rakuten comes to me and says, okay, I'm absolutely sold on this technology. We're building out a cloud environment. I want you to migrate on there. There's a lot of cool stuff we're going to do together over the next few years. And so I get a deal done with those guys that really secures our financial future quite massively. And so now that only happened in the last few weeks and then starting to build and scale the team. We're closing out some other pretty solid deals in different verticals. exactly talk about those ones just yet, but outside of sport into some other areas that are really, really exciting. And now we're off and running and we have zero debt, we have zero liabilities, we've got good revenue coming in and we're off and running and it's kind of terrifying and exciting.

Yeah. What a journey that this has been. I mean, as you mentioned, starting the company a while ago, but then really 2015, 14 or so having this idea with the tech itself. I'm curious, obviously the tech is continuing to kind of update and change and adapt, but at what point did you really have a pretty workable version? How long did that take? Just for context, I think it'd be helpful to understand.

Yeah, I mean, it comes in these sort of waves, right? Like, I mean, we had an MVP pretty quickly that was very front-end focused. When we knew we had to build out a full product where you have to integrate a backend, we had to build onto— we built onto AWS originally. I mean, that took years. For what we have built, it takes 3, 3.5 years.

Yeah. And that's what I kind of figured was with this type of thing as well.

And one of the coolest things I said to my CTO at one point, hey, if we get more money, can we do this faster? And he said to me, and I'm sure people have heard this line before, but I just love it. He said, 9 women can't have a baby in a month. Sometimes things just take time. And look, and so whilst that was annoying then because we were ready to go, it's actually a blessing now because anyone that even wanted to try and copy our stuff are years behind us. They've got to, it's going to take time. They've got to work it. There's so many things that we— solved along the way. And I didn't, for the most part, didn't hire sort of traditional software engineers. I always got like video game devs because they have a very different mindset. The software engineers kind of, they have a box and they say, okay, I do whatever fits inside this box. Whereas the video game devs tend to smash the box and then rebuild the box however they want it to work. And And that kind of attitude, it is, I guess, an entrepreneurial creative spirit of how do we get the technology working for us, not how do we use the technology as it is, if that makes sense.

On that note of the team, with what you just mentioned, having a different way of hiring, how did that come about? How did you think about building the team for this company and even to have different people working on what you're doing with the tech? How'd you think about the team building? aspect of this?

Basically, we were lucky. I mean, look, I think anytime you build a company or in a company like this, there's a few things that come into play. You got to have a cool idea, you got to be good at what you do, you've got to be able to bring people along for the ride, and then you need some luck. And when those things sort of come together, then some wonderful things can happen. With me, we were lucky with a few things, and one of those was one of the first kind of guys that came in was very tied into a vocational sort of college that specialized in training video game devs. It was really designed around the video game industry. And, and so one of the head lecturers there ended up coming to work for us because he'd sort of He'd sort of moved. He'd been doing that for years and he wanted to, rather than teaching, he wanted to work on stuff. And so he came here and we never had a job ad go out. You know, I just talked to him and he would just, we'd just tap into this school and get the best, the best guys every year and bring them into the fold. And, and so we've got a team of guys. They all know each other. They've all been trained the same way. They all, I mean, we have never had in years a single argument between this group that we have here. Now, everyone just gets along unbelievably well and they execute. So as we scale the team, I think there's going to be some different challenges and as we grow into new geographical markets. So I had planned to relocate to New York In April this year, I decided. Yeah, not a good time to move to New York, right? But I'll get there eventually because the US market's pretty key for us. But as is, being in New York makes a lot of sense because it's so close to the UK. Sorry, as an Australian, I can say it's close because everywhere is a long way from here.

Touché.

That's a little skip over the pond, as you would say. So yeah, so that's, you know, we'll have different challenges as we scale the team globally. But, you know, in terms of the HQ, we're pretty well set.

One of the last things I just want to ask, I know we're running out of time here, is just with what you have going on, obviously you have the tech side of this with that and then the many applications of that. You happen to own a few bars still. And the creative agency side of things. Where is your time spent? How are you juggling these different things today, Anthony?

Look, 99% of my focus is on the product side of the business. My wife is very active in the hospitality businesses that we're involved in and she's unbelievably capable there. And we have, sorry, some other business partners that help from an operations perspective. and are really, really good. So I was more involved with those early on, but I designed and built them all. But now I'm sort of really in the background there. If there's a major issue, I'll get involved, but that doesn't seem to happen either. So that's pretty easy. The agency side, I mean, I learned a really valuable lesson there. I wanted somebody, you know, you can, as an entrepreneur, you can end up with a mind like, how do I put this? I always felt like I had to do everything, if that makes sense. Or, you know, like, I—

Yeah.

Or I had to keep an eye on everything is probably a better way to put it. Because when you're trying to grow something, it can be a bit full on. Like, you're concerned about, is there enough money to pay wages? Is there, you know, your insurance is up to date? And what's the work? How are the clients? How's every client feeling? And as you're growing something, That's kind of where, I mean, I'm not a person that really feels a crazy amount of stress, but that was the concern, right? Is how do I— and I would hire people and they wouldn't always work out, especially if I wanted someone to do a lot of the things that I do, it would never be exactly right. And so our agency was in another city, right? And so it's in Sydney and our HQ is in Canberra. And I tried hiring a couple of people that I thought could run that business so it would free me up to focus on the product side and these other deals that was going on. And I thought I was going in with a pretty reasonable salary for those roles, but they just never executed. And then one guy came out of the woodwork and he wanted a pretty decent salary. I went, you know what? I'm going to give it a shot. So I said, all right, I'll pay you what you want. Here's my expectations. And you get what you pay for. He's phenomenal and he has run that business. So he's managing director. In fact, I've just made him a partner in the business. He drives that side of the business. He's growing it. We've got some amazing clients that we're working on. huge global brands that we work with out of that side of the business. So when I say agency, it's very specialized. So we do a lot of augmented reality. So whether it be an AR app, social AR, web AR, and then we do VR activations. We do basically any creative technologies, projection mapping. There's all kinds of different things. And so he runs that and I focus on the product side of things. I mean, this is really where the big opportunities are for us as a company and for obviously for my wife and I. And so this is where my focus needs to be.

Yeah, and that makes total sense with what the potential is with that. And if you can delegate, get good people in the right positions, you're able to do that as an entrepreneur. And where can people go to learn more about Unbound, the technology you're building, everything there, and also connect with you, Anthony?

Yeah, so look, obviously on LinkedIn, you'll find me there and I don't know if you can share a link or I'm happy to Anthony Arena. The Unbound website, which is the agency side, is unbind.com.au. And then our product side is thisisaura.com. So thisisaura.com is the product side of the business. And yeah, and if people want to check out the bars, it's Lala Hospitality.

Perfect.

It's pretty wild when I think about it now. It's worked out well.

It's so unique and I love your story and how you used that to fund this business and now funding this kind of frontier tech of sorts. It's incredible. And Anthony, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show today.

Thanks for having me, mate. I really appreciate it.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Just Go Grind. If you want to follow along on the socials for all things Just Go Grind and with me as well, you can find Just Go Grind on Instagram and Twitter @justgogrind. You can find me on Twitter @JustinGordon212. Find me on Instagram @JustinGordon8. Thank you so much for listening. Have a great day.

Bye.