EP 107 – The Trauma Map: A Path to Healing w/Dr. Karol Darsa

Welcome to the Kaleidoscope of Alternative Perspectives on Mental Health. My name is Dr. Adriana Popescu. I'm a licensed clinical psychologist and leader in the field of mental health, energy psychology, addiction, trauma, and empowerment. In this podcast, we will be exploring mental health from a variety of perspectives, from the spiritual to the shamanic and beyond. What if mental illness isn't everything we think it is? What if everything we see as a pathology is actually a possibility? What else is possible with mental health?

Hi everyone. Dr. Adrianna Popescu with another episode of Kaleidoscope of Alternative Perspectives on Mental Health. I'm honored to have as my guest today Dr. Carol Darcy. She is a licensed psychologist with 25 years of experience and she's the founder and executive director of Reconnect Integrative Trauma Treatment center, which she established in Los Angeles in 2012. This one of a kind treatment center integrates all evidence based, cutting edge trauma treatment modalities under one roof. Very exciting. As a survivor of childhood trauma, she understands the challenges and joys of the journey of healing. She's also an author of the trauma map, five steps to reconnect with yourself and the creator of RITTM Reconnect integrative trauma treatment model. Dr. Darc also co created the Invisible War Recovery Program, an intensive trauma treatment program for veterans suffering from military sexual trauma. The producer sought out Dr. Darcy to create the special program for the featured veterans due to her extensive experience and proven methods of working with trauma. And the program was inspired by the Academy Award nominated documentary, the Invisible War. Oh my gosh. So much. Your. Your. Your bio is amazing. As a seasoned trauma expert, Dr. Darca has dedicated her career to shedding light on the complex dimensions of trauma and the path towards healing. Yes. With a rich history of speaking at prestigious institutions and conferences, Dr. Darca brings a wealth of knowledge and experience and passion to every engagement. She's spoken everywhere. I actually met her at a conference we both were presenting at last year. So I'm super honored to have with us Dr. Carol Darcy. So much, so much gratitude to having you here today.

Thank you so much for inviting me.

Yeah, I always like to start off the show with getting to know our guests a little bit. So I'd love to hear a little bit about your story and how you came to be doing this really important work that's so needed right now.

Sure.

So.

Well, I came from Europe 32 years ago to go to college and then I was supposed to actually get into my family business. Then I said, you know, I'm really enjoying so much more working with people than working with clothing, which was my family work. And I. Oh, I wanted to start first my work with kids because I really wanted to help them. And from there I said, no, actually, it's more important to me to work with adults who were abused as children. So my passion has been trauma work Since I started 25 years ago, working with foster kids first and then moving into adults. So just really did a lot of different modalities. And what I found is that, honestly, at school, they kind of give you really basic stuff, but if you want to specialize in something, you have to do all the different training. So I went into anything and everything to do with trauma, like emdr, somatic therapies, brain spotting, gestalt therapy, be joining a Fisher's part, like, everything under the sun. And so that's kind of how it all came about. And another part of my career is that I was working as an independent contractor in different treatment centers, especially in rehabs. And what I found that they didn't actually do the trauma work. They were much more focused on. On the substance abuse. And so when I would go in once a week, clients were like, oh, no, that's the woman who's gonna open our trauma. She's coming. And then, like an hour later, I had to go. And I said, I wish I could work with these clients day after day with trauma so that they weren't so scared of opening up just for 50 minutes, you know? And that's what gave me the idea of opening my own trauma treatment center 12 years ago. So then I know it's like, it's much more contained. People are, you know, coming day after day, so they don't have this, like, I'm going to open something, and then I go home and I'm on my own, Right?

Yes.

And of course, the integrative aspect is the most important aspect, because you can't just do one area of your work, but not really, you know, touching the other things like the somatic, like yoga and nerve feedback, everything that helps to calm the nervous system down so that a person can deal with the trauma or the traumatic memory. So that's how sort of I put together the center.

So many things I want to respond to. And everything that you said, also being a trauma specialist and working in addiction treatment, I. Same thing. You know, for years and years, there was this paradigm, you know, with addiction treatment, like, oh, well, trauma is probably really at the root of all of their addictive behavior. But you don't touch that until they have at least six months to your sober. And we just kept seeing, you know, I, I'm the clinical director right now at a women's dual diagnosis program that specializes in trauma. And what we see is when folks have such unresolved severe trauma and they have PTSD and their symptoms are ongoing, this is why they're using drugs and alcohol. And if you don't address the underlying trauma, they're not going to be able to stay sober. That's why they keep going in and out of rehab 10 times.

Yeah, that's exactly right. We have a lot of chronic relapses and they say, I know how to stay sober up here, but my emotions don't allow it or, or the memories that are coming up and not. Not allowing me to stay sober. Right. So they're saying, like, just don't tell me just to stay sober. I know that already helped me emotionally, so. And the trauma work, and that's actually, you didn't ask me this directly, but I just thought of a good question. Is that what is really trauma work mean? Because people think trauma treatment means you have to open up everything that sort of happened to you and you got to talk about it. But so then when we in the beginning do stabilization work, which is really step one, people say, oh, how come you're not doing trauma work? We explain to them we are doing trauma work. Trauma work is about stabilizing your mood. It's about helping your nervous system to calm down. Because they're so activated and have so many feelings and symptoms. That's not the time to say, okay, now tell me what happened in your past so that we can dysregulate you even more. Right. It has to be an all encompassing thing. The whole thing is a, is trauma work.

It is, and it comes in stages. And I want to get into that in a little bit, but I think we maybe even need to start with a more basic question, which is what is trauma Is. I think, think that also is. There's a lot of confusion around. People think it's sort of the obvious things. War, a natural disaster, an assault of some sort. But it can be much more nuanced than that. Right, True.

Exactly. Actually, it's interesting because in the, in the old times it was more maybe even that like only the big incidents constituted as trauma. Because the definition of it is that your well being is under threat, either really or perceived. Or you're observing because observation of someone else being abused or traumatized can be trauma traumatizing for a person. So then people Started understanding. No, actually there are smaller incidents that can cause trauma as well, such as relational injuries, as I call it, sometimes like absent parent. Well, yes, they were not abusive, but they were pretty much working all day. And you raised yourself like that could be traumatic for a child and. Or growing up with a narcissistic parent or, you know, again, even if they weren't abusive, those are important. But I'm kind of seeing sometimes to go from one extreme to another. I have clients who either think still trauma only is the big things, and then I have clients who think everything is traumatic. There was a, I don't know, traffic jam. I'm so traumatized. There was a traffic jam. That is not really trauma. Right. So we also don't want to go to the other extreme. I think it's. It's important to understand. And also important to understand not everybody reacts differently to the same situation. Doesn't make a person weaker or stronger. Right. But that we have different nervous systems, and that's an important one to recognize as well.

Yes. And I want to talk about that. Maybe that would be the next thing, because I think in our training, you and I are about. Of the same generation of probably when we went to grad school, I don't remember learning a whole lot about trauma being physiological. We didn't really talk about the nervous system dysregulation so much. It was more about the psychological impact of trauma. Right. So now I think science is finally, you know, polyvagal theory really has helped us to have a greater understanding, but that, you know, you cannot address trauma without addressing the body and the physical. So could you say more about that?

Sure. So the trauma gets really stuck not only on our thoughts or memories, as people think, but really gets stuck in our body. Especially because when traumatic incident happens again, it's either overtly something big or even just sort of chronic thing, our body reacts to it. Like one of the first thing that we do when we're scared is just to constrict and to just kind of go coil inside. Right. Or we hold our breath. Often you'll see if a client is holding their breath a lot is there's some sort of a. Either maybe an attachment trauma or. Or some physical trauma. So in the past, when they were only looking at traumas like a cbt. Right. Cognitive behavioral therapy. Well, let's see what kind of belief system you form. Well, that's great, but that's just addressing your brain and. And your thinking capacity, but that's not ever addressing the body. So what they Found over the years is that was a good beginning support, but it wasn't really clearing out. It wasn't clearing out the memories. That was held in the right brain, which is the emotional brain, and it also wasn't doing anything to the body. So a lot of people, in fact have really psychosomatic symptoms. Right. A lot of the illness that people can't find medical source of it is really coming because of the stress or the trauma held in the body. So it's important to incorporate that so that actually the body can release the memories, so to speak. It's not like we're deleting the memories, but so that it can release it on, on a cellular level. And that's how all the somatic therapies came about, as well as trauma informed yoga or dance or other movement therapies or even heart math, which is a great. One of the modalities that we use at Reconnect is an important one that still kind of incorporates the body too.

Love it and people. And you know, even just learning how to be in your body, right. And how to feel safe in your body. Because a lot of this nervous system dysregulation we're talking about, it's that fight, flight, freeze response, right? So your nervous system can start to get not dysregulated, not only from the original experiences or if they're still going on, but it's the, that the amygdala, that the center of the brain that actually controls that fight, flight, freeze response. It starts to get dysregulated, right? It starts to fire in this full blown fight, flight, freeze response. In situations that are not potentially traumatic, it's not life or death, you're not being chased by a tiger. There's, you know, there's no reason for this mechanism to go off. And yet with highly traumatized people, it does. It fires, you know, at the slightest sound at someone looks at you a funny way, you're running late for a meeting. Right? Can, can you say more about that and how we really need to work with that response specifically?

Yeah. So actually, Janina Fisher explains five different trauma responses. There's the five flight freeze that everyone knows, and then there's two more, which is submit and cry for help. So those are our five natural responses to, to any traumatic situation that we do. I also kind of talk about it as sort of a disconnect. Like when something happens where we physically can't escape, we usually escape in our thoughts or in our feelings, which is kind of like the checking out the Dissociation. So somewhat of. Sometimes it's a freezing or sometimes just escaping and going away or even submitting has that quality. The fight, maybe not necessarily. Sometimes the fight is more sort of grounding experience. But so those responses, when they happens and it's incomplete. In other words, we want to fight, but we can't fight. We want to escape, but we can't escape. It kind of gets stuck in the body and, and then sometimes freezes there as a response and then it will show up later on. That's also the reason why we, we work with, you know, calming the body and the nervous system down with a lot of different, different techniques. So that's kind of how maybe we can even talk a little bit more about what I was referring to. Dissociation. As I was saying, it's actually a defense strategy. Right. If we can't escape physically and I'm escaping with my thoughts or with my emotions, I'm protecting myself. So I'm, I'm in much less pain in that moment. So the, the thing is, when the danger is over, how do I come back to the present moment? How do I come back to my body? Because that is where I'm supposed to be. I'm supposed to live in my body so that I can actually function and do day to day my life. Well, it's great if the incident is only once in your life, okay, then you can come back. But what if the trauma is chronic, which then you have chronic dissociation with people because escape becomes a way of living as opposed to just a one time or two times protective mechanism. Right.

Oh, sorry. So I just wanted to ask there for a second. So for people who may not fully understand that, what does it look like? Like what would be some of the signs or symptoms of dissociation?

Yeah, I'm glad you asked me this way because it's actually a spectrum. So it's something as simple as. So in the beginning of the spectrum I would say is my best example always is when you're driving on the freeway and you just take the wrong exit or you don't even realize that you went to the right lane instead of the left brain. Left lane. Because you're watching, I don't know, you're listening to a music or you're talking on the phone or you're just simply thinking of something else. You're basically out, you're spaced out. So exactly the being spaced out is the beginning of dissociation. Well, there's not much of a danger there unless you're so severely dissociated. Then of course you can have a car accident, God forbid. But overall, it could be something that you're on automatic pilot, you're able to drive, but you just missed the exit. So that's a small one. And then we come back, we go, okay, what? What did I do? You know, a little bit more. You can see people when you're talking to people. You can see it in their eyes. And you kind of want to say like, hello, are you there? Right. That's when they're like, oh wait, I just spaced out. So that's a very common thing. But then again, it increases, right? So when it becomes more and more about really forgetting all the time, having a glazed kind of look throughout the day and just. And then it can go all the way to like depersonalization, derealization, like, I don't even know, am I the one who's talking? Where am I? I don't remember. All the way to dissociative disorders, which is having even different alters or different parts. So it's a big, big spectrum. And it goes hand in hand with trauma. If you have had trauma, chances are you have some degree of dissociation. And again, the understanding that that at the time was a defense mechanism, but that maybe we don't need to use this defense mechanism anymore is kind of how I start working with the dissociation.

Yes. So important and I think again, particularly for addiction clients with addictions. Right. Because addictions sort of can help further that dissociative process. Because now you're using in chemical to put you in that spaced out, altered, maybe even a blackout where you're like, you are dissociated in a blackout, you're not present. Nobody you know, your body's there and functioning, but where are you, the being? And I think too, so important for our fellow practitioners, mental health practitioners, healers to understand that or even teachers, if you think about like the school system, you know, if people are dissociated, they're not present, they're not able to learn, they're not able to retain information. I see it all the time in groups at rehab where we're trying to teach material and clients, you can just tell they're not present, they're not able to be grounded, they're not learning the coping skills. We're trying to teach them to be able to stay sober because their nervous systems are so disregulated and basically they're. They don't feel safe in their bodies.

Right. Well, and that's the Thing. So when we teach grounding techniques to our clients, for instance, it's very important to start gently because sometimes it can backfire. Right. Again, because I called it defense strategy. So if a client has checked out of their body because something is too painful from the past, which they're still feeling it, and if you force them to get back in their body before they're ready, they're just, they can have a panic attack or it's just. It's going to be too overwhelming for them. So I start first with just the psycho education piece of it, just to even know, okay, don't practice it. But do you understand what it means? Do you understand when you space out and when you don't? What kind of things make you want to leave your body more than the other ones? Right. Like I have sometimes clients, when they talk about difficult things, of course, the dissociation becomes obvious. And then I switch topic to I don't know what you do on the weekend or tell me about your dog. And all of a sudden they're very present. So just, even the awareness of that is important because the awareness is what a person, how they, they can take the control back in their hands and go, oh, wait, I was kind of out of my body. Let me come back a little bit. Right. So that, that's a very important step to do. But again, doing it gently, not overwhelming the client, not making anybody feel bad about spacing out and knowing what kind of things are harder or easier to deal with and gradually really expanding that capacity to stay present. Because what happens, unfortunately, is people even space out, even for boredom. Like, if you're in a boring class or boring lecture, you're like, let me dream about something else and you're out of your body. Right. It just becomes a habit.

Yes, yes. I mean, I think we want to highlight that dissociation is also a pretty normal process. Right. It doesn't mean it's a pathology or you've. You're a trauma victim or something like that. Like, we all have some level of that on a daily basis because most of us are not fully present all the time. And we're constantly being bombarded with stimuli from all around, especially our devices. And so, I mean, how many people do you see crossing the street that don't even notice a car is about to hit them because they're so, you know, deep in their phone.

Thank you for reminding me that I actually think this. This generation. And even though we are older generation, I mean, because now we live in this, in the last 20 years, probably this dissociation has increased. I don't think. 20 years ago I haven't spent so much time in front of a computer or in front of a. Like when did we have iPhones? We didn't have 20 years ago. Right. No, so it just, I, you know, I. 25 years ago, in fact, I remember for me to get to connect to my email, I had a dial up, had to ring the phone and so that means I didn't have it in my hand, which now even in the elevator I'm checking my emails and the red light traffic like it's so bad.

I know I'm, I'm guilty of it too. Yes. Staying present is really, is really important. Now I want to say a couple things and then ask you more specifically about types of grounding skills. But you said something. Two words popped into my mind with the last piece you were talking about, which was titration and window of tolerance. So really what you're describing there about the gentle approach to becoming more present with your body is to cultivate this idea of the window of tolerance and that be exposing you to the uncomfortable material, which may be the trauma material itself. Could also just be being, being present and feeling pain or sensation in your body that can feel very uncomfortable and take you out of that window of tolerance. So titration is this idea that we're going to gently ease you into the painful stuff while at the same time give. Developing a sense of calm and safety and groundedness in the window of tolerance. I know that's a lot of stuff, but can you speak to that a little bit and how you work with folks around that?

Sure. I mean, you said the right words. I just usually use a very simple terminology for, for lay, layman's terms, but it's kind of sensory motor psychotherapy called that calls that small bites. Basically taking small bites. Right. Just, just really like for instance, my grounding technique, usually it can take up to 10 minutes. Really taking the time to, you know. But what I do is in the beginning I say, okay, first we're gonna just feel our feet as, as I'm guiding you. Almost like a guided meditation. But guided grounded grounding technique. Just stop anytime something doesn't feel good. Because I don't want to do everything in one day. Right. I want to go just by even feeling your feet. How are you feeling? Often people feeling their feet are more okay than feeling different parts of their body. That could be much more triggering. Now we have to remember coming back to the body could sometimes bring up memories if there was a physical oriented injuries or hurt or abuse, that's the reason why we're going very, very slowly there. So the first time, maybe it'll be just feeling the feet and then leaving it at that. The next time when we meet, we do a little bit more. So this is what I mean by gradual increasing the capacity, which we call it a window of tolerance.

Yeah. And for the, for the person who's traumatized, they don't, they don't have a window of they've lost, if they ever had one, they've kind of lost it. Right. What can happen again, this is more the science part of it is they can get stuck in that fight or flight or freeze response. And so physiologically their nervous system can't be calm, it can't be at rest. It's, you know, either really, really shut down or really, really amped up. So it's, it's so important for our clients. You know, sometimes, like you mentioned, the trauma work. Why aren't we doing the trauma or this is the trauma work. It's just, just helping you to be safe, be in your body and be safe in your body and be able to tolerate, you know, gradually increasing amounts of perhaps discomfort.

Actually, I tell many clients, contrary to popular belief, healing trauma does not require always for you to go deep into the memories. I have had clients where they just were never ready to talk about what happened. And I said, that's okay, as long as I help you. How to be present. Because what is our goal anyways? To, to live in, in today. Right. You want to be able to go to work, you want to be able to go to school, whatever you want, take care of your kids or whatever else that you're doing. So if, if we can do that by actually solely focusing on the present moment and watching the behaviors of how you are today, you may not need to go back. If a person wants it, sure we can, we can do it. It could be kind of a deeper healing, but it's not as required as people think. You know, in the past people said, oh, they told me, I have to say, tell the story over and over again until I don't need to talk about it anymore. That's kind of old school and it's really not necessary at all. In fact, it could be much worse. Dysregulating.

Yes, let's actually mention that too. I think that's really important because we're both trained in certain modalities like brain spotting, where talking about the trauma, it is, it can be very deep Processing of the trauma. But it processing does not equate to talking. The client does not have to talk about whatever their internal experience is. When we're talking about tapping right EFT or tft, we also, the person doesn't have to verbalize the, the experience that this happened and that happened and all. They don't have to talk about it at all.

Right? Yes. And that's such a relief for people especially like my centers name has the word trauma in it.

Right.

Reconnect Trauma Treatment Center. So some people come in going, great, I wanted the trauma work. And other people are coming, going, I don't want to open anything. I know you guys are trauma center and don't, don't make me talk. We won't make you do anything that you don't want to do. And again, you can heal without it. See, the most also important part of it, and that's actually what I talk about it in my book the Trauma Map, as you mentioned it is that because trauma creates impact of how you are today, not just in life, but how you are with yourself. So my favorite things often to do is if you have been abandoned, neglected or abused in any shape or form, I look at if you're doing any of those behaviors to yourself. Because if I can help you just change your behavior towards yourself, actually you may not even need to do so much more about the past, you know, as. As long as you live in a safe environment still. Right. So. And that's what people don't realize. So they say, oh, I was abused, but thank God I didn't turn out like my mom, so I'm not abusing my kids. That's great. Thank God that's true. But how about with you? Oh, well, yeah, they exactly say the things to themselves that they heard as, you know, when they were kids. So then the abuse actually in a way never stops. It continues internally. So I focus so much more on that portion before I go into deeper EMDR and everything anyway. Because then it gives them such strength. They go, okay, now that I'm treating myself better, I'm say I'm being kinder to myself. Now I can tell you about my childhood if it's necessary.

Well, right. And that's the empowerment piece. Right. Is to is is letting clients have more control, teaching them how they can start to have some control over at least how they treat themselves. Right. They may be continuing a pattern and maybe this gets us into more of the relational trauma you were mentioning before. Because, you know, for a lot of people who've Struggled with past trauma. They don't feel safe around others. Maybe they repeat like abusive relationships. They, they don't know. They don't know how to come out of what I would call this victim kind of consciousness where there's a belief that I have no control or power over the things that happen to me.

They don't have it with what happened. They have control of what's happening now. And that's sort of the empowerment, like you use a good word or self empowerment. Right. And that's sort of even how we come to self relationship with self or inner child work or inner parenting as, as people call it often. And, and kind of coming back to earlier what we were saying, right. People think the traumas are the big things, but it's so important to really understand the patterns that they learned from their caregivers as a, as a child. Because there's so much little traumas that, that happen there that people don't see. So I had a client, for instance, one example, that his mom had cancer. It took like 10 years for this person to pass eventually. And so if you ask this client, he was saying, I don't have trauma. My parents were great, loving people. True, they can be loving, but your mom had a medical illness that was traumatic, but it's not her fault. It doesn't have to be somebody's fault for it to be traumatic. And if a person has cancer and they know they're gonna die, they're not going to be as present and vivacious or calm as you would need as a mom. So that could be highly traumatic. Right?

Yeah. So how do you work with people around specifically this more like relational maybe we call it more of a covert trauma because it isn't so obvious. Like what are some of the strategies or techniques you use with folks for that?

I always start with psycho education about the importance of that. My typical sentence is trauma creates disconnect. So then I'm looking into in what ways a person's feeling disconnected. Are they disconnected from their body? Are they disconnected from their emotions? Are they disconnected from the way they're thinking because it creates distorted thinking? Or the disconnection can go outwards. So there are three ways it can happen inside and two ways I look at it from outside. Are they disconnected from people or the big picture disconnect, like a God, spirituality, universe, whatever they they believing in. Right. So I look at all those details and almost do an assessment in what way? And then my job is to help them to reconnect back to themselves with these different Parts. So that's why I said the memory processing kind of happens a little bit bit later. I start with those, right. And then I'm listening so carefully to, to see how they're treating themselves, how they're treating their body, is their self. Hatred towards the body is very important. Can they tolerate grounding? Can. Can they tolerate just being present in the moment or they're wanting to escape it? So lots of tools in the beginning, just emotional regulation tools. I, I really give a lot of homework because I want people to practice this. This is like a workout. You can't go to the gym one hour a week or 50 minutes a week, like a therapy session, and say, oh, I'm in a great shape, even though I have not been in a great shape for 40 years of my life. Right. So especially if you're not in a big IOP program like us, but you're going just once a week, you need to get into the habit and the discipline of self care, like daily, from the moment that you wake up, between the gratitude, the grounding, different kind of meditation, that's more sort of grounding oriented or mindfulness oriented. Practicing mindfulness throughout the day, being aware of being present, watching the language. What do you say to yourself all the time? And then eventually with that, I go into, deeper into. Okay, let's see how your childhood has been affecting you.

Yeah. Yes. It has to come in stages, and we have to go slowly at the person's pace, at what they can handle. Because you know what, what I can handle in terms of my trauma processing or. Or process of healing through trauma could be very different than yours. And one person might be able to do a lot of work where there, There are people who we actually, at the rehab, in residential treatment, we can do very deep trauma processing with them because they're ready for that. And other folks, I can't even teach the biology of Trauma 101 without them getting activated and having to leave the room. They're having a panic attack just hearing about what trauma is.

That's true. That's true. That's. And that's why the unique individual attention to each client is so important. You, you said it exactly right. And that's why I said so you wouldn't teach a grounding technique technique to somebody who can't even hear the letter T out of the trauma and go, we're gonna now feel our bodies. Are you kidding me? I'm running out, away from my body all my life. You want me to feel it? No way.

Yes.

Right?

Yes. Exactly. And I think that's important too, because I think as traditional therapists who have not had the additional training and trauma specific, you know, modalities like they, they're trying to maybe guide their client through a meditation or some breathing techniques or, I don't know, seemingly something innocuous that to the highly traumatized person is actually retraumatizing. What do you mean? You're asking me to scan my body and feel, you know, these different parts. I don't want to feel what. Or I, you know, I didn't realize until I was really using. You know, I've. I've known eft tapping for many years, but it wasn't until more recently that I realized with. That some clients, they don't want to tap on their face because they've been hit in the face. And it's too. It's re. Traumatizing or absurd. It's too activating. Right. So then we need to vary it. We need to use finger points or we need to do it like a gentle rubbing rather than the more abrupt kind of tapping. So even the techniques themselves, sometimes we have to modify to fit where a person is at in their process.

Without a doubt. And I think that's why it's important for us to, as therapists, to know a bunch of different tools as opposed to. Sometimes people say, I do emdr, and that's the only thing I do. Well, I. Not one thing is gonna. I mean, I love emdr, don't get me wrong. For some people it's been amazing, and for others you couldn't go near it. So it's important to know your audience.

Right? That's.

That's one thing. And then the other thing I was going to say, I forgot.

It'll come back. I did want to ask you, though, a question. So I'm somebody who's trained in brain spotting and I love that modality. And, and we've had the great pleasure of, you know, meeting with David grand and stuff. That's how we met at the conference last year. People often will ask me, what is the difference between EMDR and brain spotting? How do you describe that to them?

That's a good way. I actually, because I'm trained in both, sometimes for certain clients, I use both. Either the same hour alternating or different times. The way I describe it is the basic thing is that they're both trauma processing technique. Right. And they have kind of different. It works for some people better than the other. My explanation is obviously the obvious one is that EMDR is. Has Eye movements where brain spotting is just finding specific eye spots. What I find more is that brain spotting in the beginning tends to work better for containment because eye movements bring up feelings and memories for some people too fast to the surface, where brain spotting really is quite more containing because you're just looking at one spot. So I often start the clients with brain spotting, especially because brain spotting has the, the beauty of choosing a resource spot. Right. You find something that would like, let's say my cat is my resource. When I'm thinking about my cat, I find finding a spot when I'm looking at that spot that then it get enhanced. I'm even getting more in touch with the love that I have for my cat. And so then as I'm looking at this spot that's sort of calming, I bring up something upsetting to, to work on. I can tolerate it better because my nervous system just calmed down. As opposed to emdr, you're going between two spots, you know, and it can be too activated. So I start with brain spotting with the resourcing spots. Then I kind of go into maybe activating spot for those of you who know brain spotting. And then let's say the client worked on it and they feel like, you know what? I think I'm, I'm done. I'm not that upset about my trauma anymore. Then I still might try EMDR just to see if there's any, anything left there because it could bring up more emotions to the surface. Sometimes the eye movement movements, and definitely eye movements more than just the tapping because I think I find them more potent. So that kind of creates that way. So it's helpful. You, you really clean the corners, so to speak of this memory.

I love that. Yeah, that's very helpful. Because sometimes I have clients who will come to me having had a not so great experience with the emdr, and now they're afraid to try trauma processing again because they don't want to get flooded or overwhelmed. So. So I appreciate that.

When I was trained in EMDR 23 years ago, I was told when a client is in the middle of a processing and they're crying, you do never stop them. You just get go, continue, continue, continue. So the client would be like, and you just have to continue. And so then I learned, huh, that doesn't really work work. So sometimes I do em there for two minutes and I stop the client and go, okay, are you. They already know the word window of tolerance. Are you within your window of tolerance or are you going out? Oh God, I don't Know, I think I'm going out. Okay, good. We're gonna pause, we're gonna do some resourcing. We're gonna talk about something calming, maybe tapping. Like an EMDR tapping would be good. Or other EFT or other breathing techniques. And then if the client is ready, then I go back to emdr. So it should not feel forced. It should not feel, you know, that, like you're gonna get worse first. Like, I don't want to get worse. You know, I want to just go slow, slow increments at a time.

Yes, yes. And people don't. You never know. I think the, the magic and the miraculous aspect of some of these modalities is you never know how one session, even though they may have a lifetime's worth of trauma, one session can create such a shift for somebody that you don't even necessarily maybe have to ever go back to all them one by one through every single thing. I mean, there's still so much mystery and what can show up. And I think some people find that frightening. Sometimes. The clients might find that frightening. But I find it amazing that I remember the very first client I ever did brainstorming spotting with. And I just had a one day workshop with David. I didn't even know what I was doing. And I, I did this brain spotting with her and she, you know, severe ADHD and anxiety. Her anxiety came down from like, I don't know, baseline of 7 out of 10 maybe to like a 3 out of 10 just in that one session. And it permanently changed her nervous system functioning. Like her brain was completely different from one session. I was blown away by that.

Yeah, yeah, that's great. Brain spotting can also go very deep. And it's. There's something, because you're pausing and just looking at one spot, it's like a deep mindfulness, too. You're just really present in that moment. So it can, it can tend to calm the person down.

Yes, yes. And so as we're having this conversation, you know, it's just reminding me how important the holistic approach is, you know, to really be addressing the physical, the psychological, mental, emotional. But also a word you mentioned before, the spiritual. Sometimes I think, you know, as therapists, we don't always have that conversation with clients or we're not taught to have that conversation with clients. So can you just say some words about the importance of one's spirituality and, and the role that that plays in healing from trauma?

Sure. Actually, I have a master's degree in spiritual psychology, and so I learned to really kind of Go with where the client is about that topic. Meaning I bring it up, if they bring it up. Or I might ask eventually like what are some of your beliefs about spirituality, God, religion, depending on what it is. And then of course I respect where they are at. But a lot of the clients don't even bring it up unless sometimes you ask because they think it doesn't belong here. You know, it belongs everywhere. I mean it's. If it's a part of you, especially you're a person who prays, you're a person who goes to, to temple or like, like it's. If it's a part of you or you have your own prayers or you believe. Also the questions of what kind of higher power you believe in. Is it a punishing kind of God or is it an all loving universal energy? All of that give you a lot of information about where your client is and how to support it. So I use it for the benefit. Right. I don't of course impose my, my beliefs, although I have been saying lately that I do believe in an all loving God. And, and then I suggest, I recommend that, that belief because it's all just, you know, easier than being punished, kind of living, living in fear. So yeah, I think it's important to incorporate that, that part of ourselves in, into the sessions instead of being afraid of talking about it. I don't think it's. It's taught at schools, right?

No, I mean, I went to a transpersonal psychology program, so I got it too. We studied all different kinds of spirituality. We probably went to sister schools on that. But no, I don't think traditional graduate programs, much of that is discussed. I don't, yeah, just like our addiction, you know, our training and addiction treatment was what for us, it was a weekend workshop. That was it. That's all we got. So, so we have a long ways to go. Although I am encouraged. You know, the one thing I, and I love that we've been having this conversation. I am encouraged about how science has been catching up. I am encouraged by how, you know, widespread an understanding of polyvagal theory. It's, it's happening and these modalities that we've referenced and there are many, many, many others and there's so many brilliant people out there like Bessel Vanderkook and Peter Levine and all these, you know, masters of, of the science of trauma who have really helped further our understanding and allowed us to really be able to help our clients. I think there's this misperception out there that many folks who struggle with trauma have is I'll never be able to heal for my trauma. And that simply just isn't true. We have the techniques, the modalities, the scientific understanding, the instruments we have. We have all of it we can do. It may not be the easiest of tasks, but it can be done. So I'm loving this conversation that I hope people are gaining from it, a sense of hope that in the right hands, you too can heal from trauma.

Yes, for sure. And that's why I said earlier, it's like a training. You can train, you. You just have to have discipline daily. But it's worth it. You know, sometimes when people say, oh, I don't have time to. To do this and that, how many hours a day you spend in front of TV or watching the social media or watching a program. And I think we can create some time. And if you don't have it, one of the things that I've been suggesting to people is, especially if you're inside bombarded with a lot of negative thoughts and you can't stop the negative thinking, find some people that you like on YouTube or on. On podcasts and just keep them on when you are, I don't know, when you're brushing your teeth, when you're driving to work, when you're cooking, when you're cleaning your house. So. So there's always this positivity kind of coming into your brain, inspiring you. I put a lot of sort of Buddhist meditations that are. That you do open eyes, which a lot of my practices. Open eye. Anyway, so it just kind of keeps me, like, even though I know it, I'm in the field, I forget sometimes, like, that's right. I gotta just stay present. And so the voice of this person reminds me of that.

Yes, yes.

And as.

And how important just to always underscore that as trauma therapists, we have to do our own work. We also have to become masters of these tools because it can become very. We can get vicariously traumatized by, and we can get compassion fatigue and burnout if we are not taking care of ourselves as we do this very important work with our clients.

Yes, yes.

Always. Always remember that. So, Carol, if people want to find out more about your center, your books, your work, if they wanted to work with you, where do they go?

Probably the easiest thing is two websites. One is Carol darca.com my full name, and the other one is reconnectcenter.com so both places you can find a lot of information. The center is in Los Angeles County, Pacific Palisades, we do intensive trauma work. I do see clients. I'm also doing some workshop now. I have workshops for singles coming up in January. I also also do group work with people experiencing having experienced relational trauma and want to kind of create a new healthy dynamics in their lives. Or they can work with my team, which I have a great team of therapists working with me.

Wonderful. Love what you're doing in the world. What a contribution. Thank you so much for contributing to us today on the podcast. Any final thoughts?

Yes, get into the practice of grounding every day and just be present in your body and you'll see a lot of other stressors and things will just start really balancing each other out.

Sage advice. Thank you so much Carol thank you audience for tuning in today. If you have liked this podcast and found it valuable, please do share it, comment, subscribe, review, rate all the things that get the algorithms to get this information out there in the hands of the people who are looking for it. So Dr. Adriana signing off, I look forward to seeing you next time on Kaleidoscope of Possibilities, Alternative Perspectives on Mental Health.

Thank you for joining me for this episode of Kaleidoscope of Possibilities, Alternative Perspectives on Mental Health. This has been Dr. Audra Popescu. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe and share with others. To find out more about me, my guests and more, please visit my website at adrianapopescu. Org.

See you next time.