Kathleen Booth, SVP of Marketing and Growth at Pavilion: A Guide To Me

It's your career. If you need something, if you want something, you know the answer isn't always going to be yes, but it's certainly never going to be yes if you don't ask the questions. If there's one lesson I've learned, it's that you have to be unafraid to have the difficult conversations. And that's where the growth happens.

This is Soft Sides. Hello and welcome to another episode of Soft Sides, Laura. I'm your host, Laura Colagrande and today I'm joined by Kathleen Booth. Kathleen led marketing at top B2B tech companies and today she's the SVP of marketing and growth at Pavilion, as well as an advisor for early stage companies. I wanted her on the show because she has a very interesting perspective on executive communication and also some great frameworks for managing up. And we're going to get into all of this in this episode. But to start, because I'm always so curious about the day to day experiences of this incredible go to market leaders, I'd ask her what a day in her life looks like.

As you said, my title is SVP Marketing and Growth, but I often joke that my title is cmo, which stands for Chief Meetings Officer. Because if you look at my calendar, it is just packed with meetings and I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. It's just, it just is. I have a lot of internal meetings. But the other thing that's so interesting, because Pavilion is a community, I have the opportunity to do a lot of external meetings as well. So I talk with our members. I run our partnerships program so I talk with our partners often. Yeah, it's a lot of communication and collaboration and I do heavily calendar block because if I didn't, my meeting link is out there in the wild and I feel like I would never have time to take a bio break or eat lunch. And so, and also I need to protect time for some deep work. So I tend to have certain days of the week that I block off. You know, Thursdays are no me, no internal meeting Thursdays and Fridays are no external meeting Fridays for me, although I break that rule all the time. But at least it gives me a fighting chance to have time to really get work done. I will admit that when I wake up in the morning and I have a day with either no meetings or very few, it's like, it's like there's birds chirping and angels singing somewhere, I know it's going to be an amazing day.

Yes, absolutely. So One of the things that you and I talked about in the past is really this idea of allowing others to understand how you work. And at Softside, we spend a lot of time thinking and talking about building teams, managing up and, you know, specifically this series focuses on, on influence and your ability to influence. To influence other. Something that you said to me as it relates to this topic is this idea of a guide to work with others. And your guide, Skull, the ultimate guide to working with Kathleen. And so I want to hear about that. Like, tell us kind of, what is it? How do you use it? How did you come up with this?

Yeah, I wish I could say that I invented this idea, but probably seven, eight years ago, I heard somebody talk about this on a podcast somewhere, funny enough. So if you're listening, you're hearing me talk about this on a podcast. But they, you know, they talked about that this was something they had and I just thought it was brilliant because so often when we're in leadership roles, or even if you're not in a leadership role, you know, whenever you work with other people, I think that we have this tendency to expect people to read our minds and to just naturally understand how best to work with us. And years ago, when I owned my company, I had put in place a process where everyone in the company had to take a DISC assessment when they joined. And we would all share our DISC assessments with each other and look at them prior to having meetings. And it really helped us better understand how to communicate with each other and how to work. But it didn't cover everything. DISC is a personality type thing and it talks about how you make decisions and how you process information. But there are little things that have such outsized influence on our ability to work successfully with other people. Things like, hey, do you prefer slack or email or phone calls? You know, do you like to make decisions quickly or slowly? How do you prefer to run a meeting? Do you like to have an agenda in advance or not? Or do you want to pre read? There's all those like personal preference things that don't come through on something like a disc. And when I heard someone talk about this kind of guide to, to you, I was like, wow, that's such a great way of kind of capturing all the stuff that I know about myself in terms of my personal proclivities. Right. None of this is me telling other people how to operate. It's just giving them a better fighting chance if they want to understand me more and to get into my head. And so I think someone shared an Example and so that was my starting point and it was probably a page or two long. And then I over time just added to it. And when I first started it, I also sent around a survey to people who had worked for me in the past as well as some who were working for me at that time. And I was like, what do you wish you knew about me before we worked together? And I got a lot of great feedback that way and put it into the guide. And so it was like, here's things that people say about me in addition to the things I know about myself. And so over time it has become quite long. I think it's like seven or eight pages now. And I tend to use it first and foremost when I either take a new job. So when I came to work at Pavilion, I actually sent it to Sam, our CEO before I accepted my offer. And I was like, hey, here's this document that talks all about me and how I like to work. I want to be really transparent with you. And funny enough, he had something similar that he shared with me, which was great. And then I do the same thing when I hire people. Um, so I give the guide to people sometimes in the interview stage to. Because a lot of times candidates will ask me about my leadership style and I can just say, hey, rather than me, try and sum it all up. I'm going to send you a link to this Google Doc. And that's been really well received. And when I first came on at Pavilion, I shared my guide and then I asked everyone on my team to create their own guide. Both because I felt like it would help me work with them better, but also because I, I do think it's like a great investment to make in your future career. Like once you have that, that something that you can then share in the future.

I love that. And what I'm hearing is that you started with the disc assessment, which I don't know what disc stands for, but at a high level it's just a personality test that identifies various tendencies. And then from the disc assessment you realize that there was a need for additional nuances and to really understand how actually the tiny detail of someone personality really impact the working life together.

Yeah. And it like, it covers things like meeting cadence. I actually have my personal background in there, so I talk about like, what did I do before I even came to this company? Because I think that provides interesting context for people and I also have in how I think about marketing. There's all kinds of different marketing leaders, so it's, it's Just interesting. And I'm sure there'll be other things in the future that I'll add to it.

I really enjoyed the process of actually reading your guide and learning some of these things about you. It's just interesting to get inside of someone's mind. There are a couple of things specifically resonated with me. And so I highlighted some sections and I would love to read those out loud. And then you and I can kind of talk us through. Does that work?

Yeah, let's do it.

I think this was from the management style and you said, I expect you to manage up and push me and tell me what you need to get your job done. This is not middle school. You are your own boss. You're expected to take ownership of your role, results and career path. I'm here to help, but you own it. And so the context of this sentence is you speaking with someone that works for you, and this is kind of the direction that you want them to take when it comes to their own professional development. Tell me about kind of how you use this in practice. Is this something that if you notice someone in your team not really going up to, you know, to, to really that standard, do you let them know, like, what is, what is an example of something that you could tell them if you were to pick up on any that kind of tendency?

Yeah, I mean, I think I like, look, I have four children and you know, I say this is not middle school. Like one of the things that you. That most parents try to teach their kids at some point in their education is like, you have to be your own self advocate. You know, I just had this conversation with one of my kids who's, who's now in high school. So it's not even just a middle school thing where, you know, he wasn't happy with something that happened with a teacher and he didn't feel like he got full credit for an assignment. And I was like, hey, I'm not gonna solve this for you. You have to go back in and state your case and be verbal and don't expect them to read your mind or, you know, try to figure it out on their own. Like, this is your education and ultimately it's your life. And if you don't ask for it, you're never gonna get it. And so it's the same lesson really for your career. It's your career. If you need something, if you want something, you know, the answer isn't always going to be yes, but it's certainly never going to be yes if you don't ask the question. I think what this speaks to is really being proactive instead of reactive. It's about not sitting back and waiting for things to be handed to you or someone to realize what you need. Instead, you need to step forward and communicate about that. And that's. It's an interesting skill because I think early in people's careers, they're afraid to be honest. You know, if there's one lesson I've learned in my career, it's that you have to be unafraid to have the difficult conversations. And that's where the growth happens when you're earlier in your career. There's a lot of career relevant skills you can learn. Meaning, like, I'm a marketer. There's lots of marketing things I need to learn. But. But one of the biggest things you need to learn to be a leader is to be able to have the tough conversations, to take the emotion out of it and to advocate for yourself.

Yeah. And obviously the context of the guide is that someone that is reading it is either working with you or for you. So in this context, you are encouraging a, you know, a growing executive, a rising executive to take ownership of their career. But I also want to flip that and think about kind of your own life and your own trajectory. Is that, you know, that idea of stay here, say your case and be verbal, is that something that you have done? How did that play out in your own experience?

A hundred percent. So I actually just recently had a conversation like this with Sam, who's my boss at Pavilion. And, and I would say this conversation started when I applied for the job. And we talked about like, not only what is the job I was going to get, but what is the job after that? Meaning, like, what is my advancement path? And we had a pretty candid conversation during my interview about, like, what it would take for me to move into the next role beyond the one I'm in now. And that set the stage then for me to come back to him and say, hey, you already know, my goal is X. Here's where I am right now. Let's check in and see how am I doing? Am I on track? What specific things can I be doing to make progress against that goal that we talked about all that time ago? So literally just had this conversation this week with him as kind of like a check in. And it's important. My personality has always been one of I'm going to work really hard to get what I want. And I know I'm not perfect. I know I'm not perfect. I have so many things I need to improve upon in my life, but I feel so much less anxiety when I know what those things are and I know what I need to do to improve on them. I think there's nothing worse than like if I was working for Sam and we didn't have that conversation and I was just kind of going along knowing what my goal was but having no idea what I needed to do to make it happen and what he was expecting from me, like that would fill me with anxiety as opposed to having the tough conversation and then knowing exactly what those things are that I need to work on. Like to me that means now I'm in control and it, the ball is in my hands to make it happen. And I think that that applies to really any position.

And you said I want to talk about the job that I'm going to get now, but also the job that will come after the job that I will get. And so what I heard is that some of this conversation started before you were even hired and that you focused on getting things done and then now and then you kind of have regular check ins where you talk about where you want that trajectory. I want to bring that to life. Is that just a conversation or do you recommend for people to have a spreadsheet, have like a summary of what's, what's one way to, to show those accomplishments and maybe it's some example of how you're doing it now or how you've done it in the past.

I think the answer is that it depends on the environment you're working in. And so I'm fortunate that at Pavilion we have a pretty structured performance review process where in our case we actually submit a written self review in advance and then our manager submits a performance review back to us and then you meet and you review the two together and hopefully there isn't a lot of distance between them. And so, so in my case I put together this written self review and I, you know, was able to basically touch on a lot of these things, like what are things you're doing well, what are the areas you still need to work on? So that's really my opportunity to have that conversation and to start by presenting what I feel the situation is. Here's my self review, here's the things I think I'm really doing well and the progress I've made since my, my last review. Here are the things I know I still need to work on and my plan for tackling them. And here's how I score myself. And then when he and I met, you know, he shared his perspective and what was great about it is, you know, usually in reviews you get lots of constructive feedback, which I love. And I'm fortunate that he's pretty specific and, and hopefully at any company you'd have the situation where he says, look, you will be successful over the next six months if the following things happen. And so then I can be laser focused in the next six months on like, all right, he told me what I need to do, now I'm going to go do it. And I do the same thing with my direct reports. And you can see the difference between people, I've had a couple direct reports over the years who, when I get to their next performance review and I've actually said these words to people like, did you write down what I said on a piece of paper and put it on the wall in front of you? Because you came into this review having like nailed every single thing and there's nothing better as a manager to give somebody feedback and then see them just run with it and do it. And so I think if you work someplace where you have a structure like that, that's the format to do it in. And then of course in between review periods you can use your one on ones as check ins. If your company doesn't have that structure, I think like this goes back to be your own boss. There's no reason you can't put it in place. And this happens all the time in startups which tend to not have a lot of systems. There's no reason you can't come in and say, hey, I see we don't have a formal performance review process. If it's okay with you, I'm, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to give you twice a year a self review and I would love if you would respond with a written review and then let's meet and go over it, like put it in place yourself. And that in and of itself is a sign of maturity and leadership that, that you're willing to take that step and be proactive.

I love the fact that it can actually be simple. Like if the process doesn't exist, don't make it crazy hard, but still make it so that you yourself are keeping track of, of that growth.

And I think the thing is like document it. Like what I appreciate is that everything's documented. So when I'm getting ready to go into my next review, I can like 5 months later I can pull up the old one and be like, oh, that's what he said. Oh, that's right. You know, and. And it's really helpful for me.

So, yeah, no, I think about this idea of documenting a lot. Personally, I study architecture and I. And I started my career as designer, and anyone in a creative role is expected to have a portfolio to track the project that they've worked on. And I wish there was an equivalent of that design portfolio for commercial roles because it's so easy to lose track of some of the projects or initiatives that went well, the initiative that didn't go well. And I always just think of my design professor telling me, no, you need to document this, and specifically talking about architectural models or design projects, but really in this case, making the commercial version of that.

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Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take another one. So this is one that I thought was super interesting. And Kathleen, in her guide, she had this two ladders. And it's such a powerful visual because you basically have the individual contributor ladder and the manager ladder. And is this concept of task relevant, maturity, and basically depending on someone's faults on the spectrum, that's how you could relate to that as a manager and the kind of managing approach that you take. I really want to hear about this ladder that you see when you start talking and working with someone.

Yeah. There's a concept in the leadership and management world called situational leadership, and that's what these ladders are really all about. And I, and I'm a big believer in this. There isn't one leadership style that's appropriate for everyone. You have to meet people where they are. And again, I didn't create this, but I found these visuals incredibly helpful myself. So the first one is the individual contributor ladder, which is a series of statements, and it starts at the bottom. And so picture like, if you're the manager, these are things that your direct report would be saying to you. And so at the bottom of the ladder, it starts with, tell me what to do. And at the top of the ladder, it's, I've been doing. And so you're, you're telling somebody, oh, like, hey, by the way, these are all the things I've been doing. And then you know, as you go up, it goes from tell me what to do to here's what I see, here's what I think, here's what I recommend, here's what I'm about to do, here's what I just did, and then all the way to that, here's what I've been doing. And each step going up is a progression in terms of like maturity, if you will, and mastery of one's own role and one's self leadership. And so the concept of this ladder is like based on how your direct reports are interacting with you and what they're saying. That is an indication of how mature they are in their own self leadership. And then the second ladder is the manager ladder and it literally has the same number of levels and it tells you essentially how to respond based on where someone is and that's meeting someone where they are. Now what's interesting about this is that I think you can continue to operate where you meet people where they are, but that won't necessarily lead to a lot of growth. And so what's beautiful about this framework is that if somebody says is on rung one and says tell me what to do, I can, sure, I can default to here, I'll tell you what to do. But I can also look at what, what are the next levels up? And the next levels up from a manager would be what do you see and what do you think? So if you want to challenge your direct reports to grow, this gives you a framework. And, and if someone comes to me and says what should I do about X? And if I respond with well, what do you think? Like what, what are you seeing? What are you observing that's happening right now? And, and I've definitely had conversations like this with my team members and I'm thinking of one person in particular who's really early in their career and came to me with a challenge. And I think this particular person has been in a series of roles where they've kind of been told like, here's the process, go run it, right? And when you're early in your career and you're following a process, it can cultivate a mindset of like, okay, just tell me what to do and I'll do it. But that's not a growth mindset. And so the conversation I had with this particular person was, you are smart. I trust that you are an intelligent person who is capable of problem solving. So instead of me just telling you what to do, I want to understand like what do you think the solution is, and you don't have to be right, but I just want to understand like what's your thought process? Because very often the people that report to us are closer to the customer, closer to the work, and, and they see things that we don't. And this person that I'm thinking of right now sees way more than I do about the day to day of the program that they're running. And so it's, it makes a whole lot more sense for me to say I'm not going to just tell you the solution. Share with me your observations and I'd love to know what you think the solution is and then let's talk through it and we'll figure it out together. And so it's about understanding where people are and understanding how you need to respond to push them to that next level.

So someone reading your guide, they can see that that is going to be your response framework. And let's say that I, Laura, was reporting into you and I just started. I should be expecting that even though I might be at the bottom of that framework where I really do need direction, you're going to be the kind of manager that is now going to be. Yeah, here's assignment. Go run it. It's going to be, hey Laura, here's the assignment. I want to hear what you think. Together we can think through the solution and eventually I'll be in a place where actually I can just say, hey Kathleen, here's assignment. And I'm doing it myself. And you're just more like a overseer and a coach.

Yeah. And I would say it's also, the framework is also really helpful if you are somebody who has a high growth mindset. It gives you a framework because if you hear yourself saying, tell me what to do, you can look at the ladder and see like, oh, if I want to get to the next level, I better not come to the next meeting and say, tell me what to do. I should come in and be like, here's what I'm seeing and here's what I think you know, because those are the next two rungs and see what happens. Like test that out, get more comfortable speaking at that next level up. And you know, those kinds of jumps can be scary. But I think it's, it's helpful not just for the manager to know how to respond, but it's helpful for the individual person who's willing to be proactive and take charge to see like, I don't have to wait for my manager to, to push me. I can go into this ladder and understand like, what does good look like at the next level up.

Yeah. So interesting. In the context of influence, how do you think about influencing a major decision?

Oh, it's such a good question. And I mean, I'm still growing in this area for sure. And some of it depends on the person you're trying to influence. And this goes back to why I used to love having everybody take disc assessments. You have to understand first how that person wants to receive information and how they make decisions. So back when I would do disc, I'm what's called a high D, which is like when you take a disc, it'll tell you high Ds like to make decisions fast and they don't necessarily need a lot of information and they're very much like done is better than perfect people. And so I tend to prioritize speed over anything else. Like, and my husband always teases me because I like crossing things off my list and checking off the boxes versus like actually my husband is a great example, but I worked with a lot of people like this who are C's. And a C is like a CONS stands for consideration. And those types of decision makers, they want to be able to like have a lot of factual data. They want to weigh all the options, they want to take a little bit more time and they want to feel really confident that when they make the decision, they're making the right one. And so the first thing I think about when I think about influence is like, who am I trying to communicate with and how do they make those decisions? Because it's not just about me putting together a great argument or business case. I need to understand how to lean in and adapt my communication style to that person. So a great example is like working for Sam. I know that he doesn't necessarily respond really well to very emotional arguments. He is a factual, data driven person. And so if I want to wield influence in pavilion, I need to take the emotion out of it. I need to have a lot of data, an ROI case or a business case and show that I've done my homework. And then beyond that, being candid and not being afraid to have the hard conversations, like, especially when you get to the leadership level. So much of influence is being willing to not just be a yes person. And it's a hard balance to strike because you don't want to be the person who says like, oh, I'm always the contrarian in the room because that in and of itself makes it sound like you're disagreeing just to disagree, which isn't productive. Right. You have to understand when it is productive to disagree and to do it from an informed standpoint and not just an opinionated standpoint, and to do it respectfully so that people feel like they're being heard as well. And like, candidly, the area I'm still working on. And it's funny, I just talked about this with Sam the other day. Like, I'm passionate about things and I like to believe I have strong opinions, loosely held, but I probably have strong opinions, strongly held, you know, and I can. I'll come in and I love nothing more than I should have probably been on the debate team. I love nothing more than, like, making my case and advocating for what I believe in. But not everybody is that way. And so in my case with Pavilion, I have to almost, like, dial that back some because I can suck a lot of oxygen out of the room with my bashen. And it's not that I. That anybody wants me to be less passionate. It's just in, like, how you communicate that to allow space for other people to share what they think and to make everyone feel like when we do eventually arrive at a decision, it's one that we all feel like we made because it was the right decision and not just because somebody wore us down and got us to agree. I definitely have things that are. That are good, that I do well, and things that are not good, that hurt me when I communicate. And, and I certainly don't have it all under control, but, like, just having the awareness of it is really powerful. It's all about just knowing what you have to work on and getting 1% better every day and absorbing feedback. And if you show that you're open to feedback and you're willing to hear it and you create an environment where people can feel like they can. Can share how you've impacted them, then that's also very powerful and influential. And I think people are more willing to listen to you if you do that.

Yeah. What's a way to say that, though? Because in my mind, I want to be open to feedback. I crave the feedback. But then when you are in the moment, it's hard to. To show someone that you're open to feedback.

Yeah. I think that actions speak louder than words, honestly. And I do think this is a case where you can say all you want about wanting feedback and being open to it, but until somebody actually takes the leap and gives you feedback and you respond in such a way that you prove that you're going to be comfortable with it. I think that's where the rubber meets the road. And so what I try to do is, number one, thank people for feedback. Really just genuinely be like, I understand how hard it probably was for you to say this to me and I want you to know how much I appreciate you being candidate and I really hear what you're saying and I may not be able to promise that I'll do, you know, like I'll change and be better immediately. I want you to know that I'm really hearing you and I'm gonna work on this and then following through and, and really trying to demonstrate that you are working on it. If you do that, that proves that you're serious when you say, like, I really do want your feedback. And then you can even come back and be like, hey, after, after a day, two days, a week. And you can be like, I just wanna circle back and tell you how meaningful it was that you shared that with me. And here's what I have specifically done in response.

So it's really about the way in which you react to the feedback.

Yeah.

And allowing the other person to understand that you are at least taking that in. And if that feedback is something that you truly want to follow through, then you will actually follow through with them.

Yeah, definitely.

Okay, so I'm going to go back to the guide. So this one is one that I'm going to read and I think everyone is going to think, oh my God, I relate so much to this. Especially if you are working in a hybrid work environment. So one of the things in your guide is don't return in my slack or emails. If you think I am upset or frustrated or any other emotion, just ask me. Even better, let's get on a video call and talk. And I think this is such a real observation for anyone that is working remotely because so much of what it would be a normal in person interaction is lost and is kind of confined to a couple sentences and maybe a short slack message. And my question here is, you know, as you work with someone, do you remind people of that? Because I have to imagine that not everyone is going back to your guide every single day. So do you find yourself reminding people like, hey, didn't mean to be short or how do you address anything that relates to tone? Because I think so much of work, tension arises from quick, short messages that get misunderstood.

Yeah, this is a tough one. Thank goodness that our tools are evolving because today, like when I first created this guide, for example, Slack didn't have like audio messages and huddles and now I really try to remind myself, like, if I have any thing other than a fully straightforward message to send, I try to do an audio message or sometimes even a video message because I feel like that that is so much more effective at conveying tone. But the other thing is that there's a. I don't remember what book it is, but there was a book I read once and I have this note on the wall in front of me, which I'm looking at right now. And it had a principle called first truth first, which is like, just say it. And like, start by acknowledging that thing, which is like, hey, this is tough feedback. But I want you to know, like, I'm not upset. Or the opposite is like, hey, I just want you to know I'm really nervous to tell you this. And I'm. And I'm struggling with how to say it. Well, you know, but like, acknowledge the feeling behind it. That's the first truth first. And then give the feedback. But if you're worried about how tone is going to be received, I think in general, it's just like, it's hard to, to tell people not to read tone. I think they always will. But that's where you have an opportunity through follow up. Like, I gave somebody some pretty direct feedback a week ago, and then I followed up afterwards when we had our one on one and the feedback was written and it was over slack. But in our one on one, I said to this person on video, I was like, hey, I'm not like holding a grudge on any of this. I gave you the feedback. We're good now. We're moving forward. You know, like you can do that and just close the loop.

That's really interesting. And it's perfect segue into one of the other things that we're listed in, in the guide on. On feedback. And again, going to read from, from your guide. Speaking of feedback, you say I give very direct upfront feedback. And I am a believer in radical candor. It makes life easier and is the only way to build strong relationships. I expect you to also be direct with me. To clarify, being direct does not mean that it's okay to be disrespectful. The goal of any communication is to build, not tear down the relationship. All right. I find that this is one of the hardest things for me. And so can you give me an example of radical candor type of feedback that you would give?

Yeah. By the way, anybody who wants to get better at this, you just need to read the book Radical Candor by Kim Scott. It's the bible for how to do this. I always tell my direct reports, like, read this book. I can think of so many examples when I've had to fire people, when I've had to give feedback to a boss if I felt like they did something in a meeting that was inappropriate or came across the wrong way. Like, there's so many hard conversations. But at the end of the day, the idea behind Radical Candor is you owe it to the person to be honest. If you're not honest, you're not being fair to them. It's the corollary of what we started with, which is you have to advocate for yourself and other people need to be honest with you. Like, wouldn't you want to know if you did something that came across the wrong way? Like, if. If nobody tells you it's like walking around the world with your fly down or like something in your teeth, nobody tells you and you continue to look like a fool, versus it's uncomfortable for someone to be like, hey, your fly's down, or, hey, you've got a piece of salad in your teeth. But, like, don't we almost always respond with, oh, my gosh, thank you so much for telling me. I would so much rather hear that tough message than. Than know that I walked around for another hour with the thing in my tooth. And like, it's the same concept with Radical candor, which is these conversations are hard to have, but if you do it coming from a place of caring and love, the other person will receive it in the way it's intended. And I've had to explain to people the difference between kind and nice, which is something Sam writes about in his book Kind Folks Finish first. And there is a big difference. Like, people who are nice are sometimes. It's what Kim Scott in Radical Candor calls ruinous empathy, which is sometimes nice is the worst thing, because if you try to be too nice, no, people don't hear the message and they can't improve. And that is ruinous in the sense that you are ruining their opportunity to grow, to get better, and to be successful. And you're doing it really for your own reasons because you don't want to have the guilt of having to deliver a hard message. Kind of can sometimes be tough to hear and to deliver, but it is the right thing to do. And so I try to share with people, you have to understand the difference between nice and kind, because they're not the same.

Yeah, I love Raiko Kender the book. And actually, one of the things that she mentioned in the book is her presentation style and her manager calling her out on her inability to actually communicate. Communicate an idea without verbal text, which I have that problem. So I think about that all the time. But. But, yeah, no, I agree. You do really need someone to help you. Okay, there is one more that I really like, and then we're going to go into rapid fire. So, again, from the guide, you say own 200% of the conversation. If someone is understanding you or responding the way you think they should, ask yourself first, what could you do differently to communicate better in a way that will produce your desired outcome? We touched on this one a little bit when we were talking about influence, but I would love to hear an example where you realize that you were the one not being as clear as you wanted to be. And how did you cater to that realization and how did you improve on that?

Yeah, I mean, I've definitely had lots of situations. One of them is being in a leadership team meeting and proposing something and having it fall flat. And there's a tendency to feel like, oh, well, they just don't get it. Right. Like, that's how a lot of us think, because we, in our heads, we know why something makes sense, and instead of thinking, they just don't get it. It's like, well, maybe the way that I approach this entire thing was not very effective. And so in my case, like, there have definitely been a couple of cases like that where I've literally said to the group, all right, it feels like maybe I jumped the gun here in presenting something. Let me come back next week. Let me prepare better. I'll. I'll send you, like, a brief in advance. I'll provide some data, and, like, we can really come at it in a different way than what we did here today. And I think it's fine to course correct like that, but the whole idea here is if the conversation doesn't go the way you want, instead of blaming it on the other person and being like, they didn't understand or they didn't hear me, really refocus on yourself and think, what could I have done to, like, navigate that conversation a little bit differently?

Yeah, and. And I like how you are approaching this from the perspective of your reaction. And the course correction piece, that's. That's actually really helpful. I should be doing more of that. So I'm sure a lot of people are gonna. Are gonna benefit from. From this advice. All right, so we're gonna go into our. Our closeout, and we're gonna start with the influence. Shout out. Who is someone that had a big impact on you?

Andrea Kahl. She's incredible. She's the dean of Pavilion CMO School. She has been kind enough to get on some one on one calls with me and give me advice and I just think she's brilliant and I look up to her and she always gives me great advice.

Yeah. And actually for anyone listening, she recorded an episode of Topline with Sam which I think is one of the best episodes. Okay. What's the best career and personal advice that someone gave you?

That the definition of leadership is how you conduct yourself. It really has very little to do with how you relate to others. The best leaders are the ones that hold themselves to high standards and demonstrate through their own behavior qualities of leadership and that naturally creates influence and gets other people to follow.

I absolutely love that. Who else in this industry should people listen to and learn from?

David Kellogg is amazing. Anything to do with go to market. The folks at Winning by Design put out incredible content and GTM partners Sanger and Vaadre, their content is great as well.

Last question. Where can people find you?

LinkedIn. I'm easy to find. I will accept your connection request and so definitely keep an eye out for me there.

Amazing. Kathleen, it was so good to have you on. Thank you so much.

Thanks, Laura.