BYOB Beginner Group Session - 20th August 2025

It.

Hello. Hello. How are you?

Your whole room just went like, look, I know.

Nine months to hang up. Everything that I put together.

This meeting is being live streamed.

I don't know, it keeps saying like that. It's not. I'm not live streaming anywhere. I have baby spiders climbing all over my computer.

Really? That's a little alarming.

I mean, I'm friends with spiders, but it's just distracting.

But it was. As long as they stay put and they don't come near you.

Yeah, but they are climbing everywhere. Like, I don't know, there must have been like a. A nest that hatched somewhere around Charlotte's.

Charlotte's Web, how that works.

No, not really.

Did you ever read Charlotte's Web when you were a kid?

No, I didn't like depressing things.

It was depressing.

Yeah. Yeah. So Bambi, Charlotte's Web just wasn't into it. Anyway, what are you. What are you celebrating today?

What am I celebrating? I'm doing a live three hour workshop on storytelling this afternoon for the board, which is no longer any of the same people, but for the foundation where I used to work. And yeah, I think it'll be fun. I haven't done a workshop like this in a long time and I'm working with my local partner who was really easy for me to work with. And. Yeah, so, yeah, so I'm celebrating that she left our partnership, but I get to call her to, you know, do things. Local person's in Florida, so. Got it. Yeah. And I feel like a little nervous about. About it, so. Which is interesting.

What feels nerve wracking about it.

I think I always get a little bit of. Of stage fright. They had me come do a little preview in a board meeting, like just a meeting in May. And it was one of those, like you're walking in on somebody else's meeting and they're all sitting. They were all sitting in this you. And like, I thought I was just gonna get to like sit at the table and inter. And you know, I maybe had 20 minutes and did a little exercise and stuff, but, you know, nope, I was just standing up on stage and there was a big like photo of me on the screen behind myself. And because they do hybrid and they're on zoom and it just caught me a little like they wanted more performative than I had, you know, sort of thought I was signing up for then. And so that was like just really uncomfortable. I didn't know any of them. I was standing too far away to read any of their names on their little Table. Table Tense.

Right, Right.

Okay. And it turned out fine.

Yeah.

But I think it just sort of set me up for a little, like, little wobble. A little wobble. Boards, just in general, you know, when. When I say. And I realize the recordings on. You know, I love fundraising, and I. As I have shared with you, I'm more ambivalent about nonprofit culture in general. And boards are not the best part of nonprofit life. In fact, they're often kind of the most complicated. And you see just so much about, like. Like, it's like a social psychology experiment. You know, it's like the prison experiment, where how one person will say something and they can, like, change the whole space in the room or, you know, throw a wrench into the machine or, you know, it's just sort of a. Fascinating how people lose their. Their own gravity in the face of somebody who's louder than they are or more opinionated or more negative. And I don't love that, you know, so.

Yeah, yeah. That's such an interesting topic, though, to talk about, because, I mean, as a fundraiser, like, that can take the wind out of your sails, you know, and so how do you kind of, like, cushion yourself against that negativity on the board?

You know, I think I'm better at not being reactive, you know, being respectful and, like. Yeah, I really hear your question and trying to hear, you know, Rick Tamlin in my head saying, you know, your heckler's your best friend, you know, because they give you a chance, like, if you don't get hooked and you don't get defensive, what they're thinking's in the space, and it gives you a chance to clear it before you move on, you know?

Right. Yeah.

They're just giving words to whatever is lurking there. So when I try to think of it that way, it's better.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, totally. Yeah. It is true. Like, they are the saboteur in the room.

Yeah, they are the saboteur in the room. And there's so much, you know, everything that is true in our culture, you know, about who gets the microphone and who gets silenced and who's not gonna speak because that's just not their identity to shout over or cut in or look for conflict. And, you know, I just think I just watch a lot of perspective leech out of the room. Like, the dynamic. There's some recurring way sometimes, you know, that it happens that.

Yeah, yeah.

It's sort of an interesting. Not my little triggering, probably, for me.

Yeah, yeah. But I mean, it's all growth, so kudos to you for noticing it, for playing in it, you know.

Yeah. And so here's what I'm celebrating. Like, I'm getting paid for this, but not a ton because I under asked by a lot. However, with my newer client, I have, we're going to repeat this workshop to their board and I've asked for more money and I don't have to do the timeline again. So now I know it's. I get to repurpose it. So that's something to celebrate.

Awesome. Yeah, awesome. And Ellie, good morning. What are you celebrating today?

I am celebrating that I actually got a contract that I'm in the process of reviewing and I'm working with David to make some amendments. And the other contract is working its way through procurement.

Right.

Get notification that they're working on it and that I'm hoping to get payment finalized and in the bank by the end of this week.

Fabulous, Fabulous, fabulous. Okay, awesome. It's funny, I was like, I have ideas for Ellie and for Margaret today. And I was like, I hope they're both on the call. And here you are.

I'm also sending my fixer to join in case you see something pop up.

Your fixer?

Oh, it's. It's my note taker.

Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah. I just haven't heard it called that before.

I know there's so many of them.

Out there gonna show up and beat me up. Like, what's gonna happen?

Is there. Is the mob coming?

Yeah, yeah, no, it's. It's fixer. AI. I love this thing.

Oh, funny. Yeah, I'm a fathom girly, but, you know, all, all the same. Okay, Margaret, I'm gonna give you the idea first. I was playing around with this idea for the political stuff that I do that I don't know if you guys have ever done, like looked at Diet Bet as an app. So it's like basically if you want to lose a certain percentage of body weight, you sign on for.

Oh yeah, my sister did that. Yeah.

And you pay, you pay something like 20 bucks or whatever.

Sorry, Katie, I just totally froze. I think my Internet connection is unstable and I did not hear what you said.

Okay. So the concept is, you know, you get a bunch of people who have the same goal to pay into the pot and they all want to reach that goal. And like, you have accountability throughout and you have check ins throughout to make sure that they're tracking to the goal. Whoever is the most successful wins 50% of the pot. And I was thinking about doing this for political candidates who have to raise money for their campaigns by saying, let's set a, like a goal, like who can raise the most money and like whatever metric for success. I have to figure that out with me. Like, let's set a goal of you fundraising, like the most amount of money in the next 30 days, whoever. And have them pay like $200 into the pot. Whoever raises the most amount of money gets 50% of the pot to be donated to an organization of their. Of their choice. Right. You. And I was like, wait, wait, wait. Margaret needs to do this. Because think about this. Think about, like, how fun this would be. Like, you could have full on like boards each sign up for it. You know, you could have teams, you could, you could set it up. I mean, you'd want to do some lead time around it so that people can kind of like plan and get organized. But I mean, if you could bring in X amount of people and, and you could have them pay more than 200 bucks. Right, but think about that. Like, if, if they were to raise X amount of dollars and then like you were able to make $10,000 off of this, they could get $10,000 donated to their nonprofit. And then of course, you have a full community of people who need to get better at fundraising. Yeah.

No, I love that. I mean, I'm sort of thinking almost of like your 30 day posting challenge, where I'm not sure that I would spend a full hour a day, but, you know, like, maybe it's three times a week I'll do something. The other two days they get an email with an idea.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you could have worksheets that they have to work through. You could have like co working call times, calling through donor lists. Oh, Ellie, I think your. Your robot left. Oh, no, I didn't do anything. It just. It just dropped. Huh. Might want to add it again.

Okay.

Would you be able to share my fathom? Yeah, just. I'll just. Just remind me at the end if I forget.

Okay. Thank you.

Okay. So, Margaret, that's the idea I had for you, Ellie, because you're in the fractional world. I have another client who's also. She's fractional hr. She just got looped into a networking group called the Connective, and they are only B2B. Not work with my other clients who are B2C. Okay, but it's all fractional people who refer to each other. And I just joined and it's really, it's fascinating because there are people that are in it who literally don't do fractional work, they just make money referring people. So you set up like what your referral payment is, and if someone refer something to you, then you just give them a percentage or whatever that fixed rate is. But like, there are people in there who like get a ton of business all for fractional work. And especially as like LinkedIn is getting a little wonky, they're going through some stuff. I still have full faith that they're gonna like backtrack and figure their shit out. But for right now, like, I think it's really great for all of us to spend more time doing as much as we can. That's not putting all of our eggs in that one basket. So if you're curious about that, I can refer you in. And it's $100 a month. And they do have like a 90 day commitment at least so that you can get the most out of it. But it's like they have meetings all over the country. You can join anyone that you want. It's, it's specifically businesses that aren't geographically limited.

Okay.

And then they recommend that you go to at least one meeting a week and then set up like two or three one on one calls with folks so you can, you know, network and see if you can refer.

Okay.

But that might be a great option for you because it is specifically people who do fractional work.

Question for you around, like referral programs.

Yeah.

When is a good time to actually set that up? What should it look like? Because I've heard mixed things around it. I've heard people say, not a great idea to set it up right away. Like you kind of want to get a feel for what your business actually looks like for a quarter or two. But I can see the pros and cons, you know, of that. And I, I always take advice with like a grain of salt. Right. It's always working, but it's like.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I kind of agree with people when you're thinking about when. Okay. So like if you have unpredictable costs in your business, you know, like say, say you're like a wedding venue and you've decided that you wanted to set up like a referral fee for wedding planners or florists or bakers, like, you know, dressmakers, whatever.

Okay.

And you've just launched and you're still trying to understand like how busy business is and how much it is. Like if you set up a referral program too soon, like it could eat so much into your margins that you don't make any money in the beginning. Right. But it could also mean that it could also make the difference between you like breaking even and not. Right, right. So like. Yeah. And then of course, if you have unforeseen costs, say like guests break something on the deck or you know, I don't know, like, or like someone doesn't pay their invoice on time and you have like payment terms with your, your. You wanna. Yeah. I mean, sure, you can make up that. That's gonna get squirrely. I think for the work that you do, we just need to make sure that you're charging enough so that if you're paying out on a contract that, you know, it makes sense for you financially. We also want to make sure that you get paid up front. Right, right. And not after the fact. Because if, if a company screws you over and you've agreed to payment terms with. For a refer. And we just need to make sure that the, the terms are legit there. But I don't think it's a bad idea.

Okay. Yeah. Since you're more familiar with this referral group.

Yeah.

Some of the questions that come up for me, I think are around like, what successes have seen. Like if, if you're saying like, hey, this is a no brainer, like 100%, it's worth trying for at least three months. Like, hey, it's worth doing if you put in these guardrails.

Right.

Like all of that would be helpful.

So here's here. I mean like I, I just joined. So full transparency there what I recommend. So I can refer you in and then you can actually go to a meeting like for free and just like experience it. And then you can talk to people and then you can reach out to the person who leads that group. Because I, it's like each like Denver has a group, New York has a group, Philadelphia has a group. Like you can talk to the group leader and ask them questions. And they also have like a full, like enrollment team that you can talk to.

Okay, sure.

It's the right fit for you. They will have better metrics than I will.

Okay.

Okay. But that's, I think I, I joined that and I was like, oh God, this would be so great for Ellie.

Thank you.

Yeah. And then it's also established. So one of the things that like is really tempting for us because we think we want to get in early is like, oh, well, someone's putting together a networking group. I want to be in there early. You don't want like networking. The only thing, you don't want to be the first one in.

Right.

Because then you're putting. Pouring all this time into it, and most of the time they flop. Right. Or they turn into something that's, like, not what you were sold on. Yeah, right. This has been established and it has, like, tried and true members who've been members for years and keep coming back and keep coming back.

That's a positive indicator.

Yeah. And. And I think they only have, like, 550 people, so, like, you have the opportunity to really get to know people.

Okay.

So anyway, thank you so much. Yeah, for sure. So I'll. I'll send you the information or I'll. I'll submit your information so that they send you an email.

Okay.

You can just, like, you know, sign up for whatever, however the process goes. Okay.

That's.

Those are the two ideas I had for you guys. What questions do you have today? How can I support.

I had a question. I'm. And I didn't write it down.

Oh, no.

Thinking like, I don't need to write this down. And now I'm having major regrets not writing it down.

That happens.

And nowadays I just chalk it all up to, like, this must be one of the perimenopause things.

Yep. Yep.

It might come back.

I remember it later and. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Honestly, like, anytime you have a question, go into Heartbeat and just post it there. Because even if it's right before the call, it'll be there. And I'll be like, oh, my God, Ellie asked this question or, you know, or Margaret asked.

Yes.

Answer it here.

Yes. Yeah, I think it came up right before my husband decided that he couldn't get my dog to eat his meds this morning. And I was like, oh, I'll just do it.

And then, of course. Cool.

So I'll think on that.

Okay. Awesome.

I'm not sure. I have formed questions looking at my to do list to see if anything sparks.

Well, one actually that's been percolating in my head is this idea around. And it's very pertinent because. Yes. You were kind to say. LinkedIn's going through some stuff. I actually think LinkedIn's been a little bit of a dumpster fire, including some of the deranking that I've heard of, like, just women happening on the platform. And so there's this movement I've been noticing of people going to substack. So there's that piece of, like, do we start doing some of that? So in different baskets, there's a question. Then there's the other question around Preparing for the 2026 conference season and speaking opportunities. Because 2025, that's already come and gone. I'm also just hesitant about traveling. Like, I just canceled going to D.C. for a conference because I'm like, that's outside of my Risk profile at the moment.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. So, yes to Substack. I'm setting up on. On Substack. Margaret, you're gonna love Substack because it.

Is on, but I haven't post. I haven't posted anything yet.

Yeah. So you know how I'm like, you're doing too many side quests in your LinkedIn posts. Substack is where you keep the side quests in. Okay, okay. And honestly, like, I. I urge you both, like, if you've been creating content for LinkedIn, just repost it into substack. Right. And we can talk through the strategy there.

Because, I mean, at this moment, I think my mother is my only follower on Substack. So.

Yeah, so, like, the strategy to get followers is a little different on Substack for sure. But, you know, it is doable. It will take time. I mean, everyone who's jumping over there is starting from scratch, so that's one more than me, but everyone over there is starting from scratch. And then also, you know, I don't think, I don't think pod. I mean, not that I, like, am in ever wanting to encourage, like, false engagement, but if you guys wanted to create a core group where you go and follow each other and comment in each other's articles, like, that could help. You know, we could create like a little substack channel in Heartbeat so that we can share stuff. Yeah, but the cool thing about Substack is once someone subscribes, like, if you post something, it gets emailed to them, right?

Like they're follow or subscribe.

Yeah, yeah, but I mean, they can subscribe for. For free, right? Or they can subscribe and they can pay. But you can have a free account and a paid account, or you just have a free account.

What are the thoughts around, like, connecting your LinkedIn followers to your substack people? If you have people on LinkedIn. Yeah, but like, then the question comes up of, like, if I'm just going to start by repurposing or leveraging existing content from LinkedIn onto Substack. Will people be like, this is just the same stuff?

Yeah. I mean, okay, so that's the part of your brain that thinks everyone's paying attention and cares about everything that you do. No one cares, you know, like, no one. Like, so. And here's the thing. Like, I see there's one creator, Perry Hedrick, who he reposts the same posts all the time. I like them every time because it's good content. And I, and I fully recognize, I've seen this post like 17 times before. Right. But it's still good content. And he's not even, like, relevant to me. He does, he does pr. He has a PR firm for tech companies. Like, it's. It's very separate from what I do. Right. But his content's good. Content is good, you know, so, like, don't overthink it. And also, like, no one's paying attention. Like, and I just pay attention because I'm talking about content all the time. And so I'm tracking, like, oh, this piece of content is interesting. And it sticks in my mind because I'm, I'm, you know, figuring out what works for other people. So I can advise you guys better. Right. I don't think there are a whole lot of nerds in your following who are gonna track exactly what you've posted before. You know, you can also edit it and flesh it out a little bit, you know, so it's slightly different for substack. That's fine. Yeah.

Just literally, it would be helpful, honestly, to like, if you're willing to screen share. I mean, I don't even know how to, how to scroll where my feed it. Like, I, I am a total, like, I got an account and never used it, so that's.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Okay, so let me share mine. And I'm literally just moving over, so that's perfect. So early days.

Yeah.

Okay. Okay. So let's go home. Okay. So the cool thing about this is that you have different topics up here so you can search by it. So like, Margaret, you could look at like, nonprofit, And then you're going to see like a bunch of people who talk about nonprofits. Wait, maybe. I. I don't know.

Yeah, one word, probably.

Yeah. So you're gonna see a bunch of people and then you can go and comment on this stuff. And, and the feed here is like short form content. So it's like little quips, little thoughts, you know, tips and tricks, you know, unpopular opinion.

So it's almost like old Twitter.

Yeah, it's kind of like old Twitter. Exactly.

I thought this was a long form. So do people.

It's two. So, like, this is how you get discovered on Substack on its own. Okay, okay. And it's just like, you don't, don't put too much thought into it.

So on this you would just post short like on my page. So can we look at your page for a minute? Even though you.

Hold on, hold on, let me, let me finish. Because it's in two parts. So this is like where you can discover new creators on substack natively without like knowing about their channel beforehand. And this is where people can discover you natively without knowing about your channel beforehand. Because otherwise you're gonna have to promote your substack on LinkedIn, on Instagram, on TikTok.

And I don't see tags. So they don't do tagging here.

They don't, but you see like you can subscribe. So if I like, I'm not really reading this, so say I like that post, I can go and just subscribe to her really quickly. Right, so let's go where. Hold on.

So sorry, my question is like, as I'm posting things, I get to do some long form and I get to do some short form. Can I. And the short form ones will show up here or like the short form.

Ones will show up in this feedback in the home feed and it will.

Be clear to me how to pick.

Let me finish explaining because I think. Okay, sorry.

Great.

No, no, no, because I, I understand. I. Yeah, okay. So short form is just how people are going to discover you natively, your subscription. So like this is how it's going to show up for anyone who is subscribed to your substack. This is how they're going to see like what's the fresh content in all my substack subscriptions. So they're going to be able to go through. It's basically like a customized newspaper or magazine that people put together. So these are all the people that I follow and I follow myself.

You.

Know, and these are just like, this is basically like my articles that I get to read today. Right. And then you can set up a chat so that people can follow you and then connect with you and like chat with you so that you can build like a real community. Okay, and then when we go to. Let me just go here. So like it looks like an article, you can put pictures in here, you can have links to, to like your freebies, any webinars you're doing to book a sales call if you have a paid product or service.

Where are you now, Katie? Sorry, where, where is this inbox before? Did you just like jump over to somewhere else?

Yeah, so I jumped over to subscriptions.

Uh huh.

You know what, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to Record a video lesson on this.

Okay.

That's a little more curated. So I'm. I've planned it out, so.

Okay.

That way I can explain it to you guys better, because I think right now all I'm doing is confusing you more.

And I haven't had my coffee yet, so it's. It's quite easy to do before I get some more caffeine, I'm sure.

Right, right, right. Yeah. And I mean, honestly, like, you can have a little. A little website like this, and I'll have all of your articles, but, like, don't stress about this. I'll put together a little training that will make this make sense.

Okay.

Margaret, do you have. Are there questions that would be helpful for me to answer right now?

Yeah, I just feel. I just feel a little confused still about, like, if I start reposting things or, you know, just begin to flesh it out, do I need to consciously do, like, some short things that will go on that feed or will, like, snippets of my long things go on that? Like, how do I. How do I write things that will then possibly get some organic following?

I mean, you don't know until you start doing it.

Okay.

Yeah. Like, that's the beauty of it. So, like, you could write all, like, take a post, post it here in long form, and then reshare it with a. You know, you could share the link to that article.

Right.

And like. Like a little. A little synopsis of what it is. You could also just have, like, a short quippy thing about, you know, what you do or issues that non profits are running into. Right. Right now. Like, you just want your short content to be relevant to what you do so that people kind of understand how you could be helpful to them.

Yeah. Yes. I mean, I'm, you know, initially interested in using this on different topics. I mean, I don't mind putting nonprofit stuff up as well, but, you know, I was sort of excited to use this as maybe a way to have my writing out there, you know, promote the book, that kind of thing. So, you know, that's. That's probably. I would do that identity a little bit more.

Yeah. I mean, honestly, this is the beautiful thing about Substack is that it is. It allows for you to have a multifaceted approach to, like, presenting who you are. Yeah, Right. So you can absolutely have articles that you post about nonprofits. Right. You could absolutely also share some of your writing.

Right. So I could do, as a first post, like an introduction, and here are three topics that I'll be Covering.

Yeah. Here. Here are the types of things I'm going to be sharing about. They also have video, Ellie. Yep. And then they also. You can do lives if you have the, the, you know, the phone app.

Okay.

Yeah.

It feels a little bit like it's parallel to. If I were to write a LinkedIn article, my article would get some reach, but then I would tease the article and do a short form post about the article.

Like, is similar to that. Less janky than LinkedIn articles.

Everything about LinkedIn, they are so janky.

I know people liked the sweet.

Sweet. People liked the sweet potato fries that posted well for me. But, you know, that's after three weeks of 100 impressions. So even.

Right.

LinkedIn is really in a weird spot right now.

Yeah.

My theory. So I opened up a ticket with them earlier this week. Cause I was like, I want to understand what's going on. And from what they weren't saying.

Because.

Like, they're, you know what I think is happening is they're trying to squeeze more money out of smaller creators to pay to promote posts that would normally get reach organically.

Wait, say that one more time.

So you know how when you post something to Instagram, it's like, oh, do you want to promote this post by like spending, I don't know, $10 a day?

Yeah.

You know, for three days you can do that. And it's not a proper ad, but it like pushes it to more people. I think LinkedIn is seeing that because what they tend to do is they tend to like, watch Instagram and say, oh, that's working for them. Maybe we should copy them. They did this with stories years and years ago. Like, they saw, oh, stories are really taking off. We should try stories. Right? And then. So they rolled it out. It was so shitty. They actually like stopped it and rolled it back. Right. Then of course, like, Instagram sees TikTok doing video and Instagram's like, okay, well, let's do video now. Let's do reels. Right. And then LinkedIn is like, oh, that's a great idea. We'll do videos too. Right. And then they try it and it's like, it's fine. It's not great.

Yeah.

You know, it's not. It's not landing the same way. The people aren't gonna. Aren't using it the same way they use Instagram or TikTok. Right, right. So who knows if they'll roll that back or they'll change it, whatever. Now I think they're looking to see. Okay, cool. And they also Added verified accounts, right, which you can have on Instagram, you can pay for it, whatever. And then now I think what they're doing is they're saying, okay, cool, so people will pay to promote a post on Instagram now. LinkedIn's ads are so fucking expensive. Like I've done, I've done trials of it. It's not worth it for small businesses. If you're a major, major big corporation, yeah, it makes sense for you to show up in more places. Um, but they are so expensive per click. It just does not make sense. So they're trying to figure out how they can start making some more ad money off of us. I think what it's going to do, it's going to crash and burn the communities that, that smaller creators have created on the platform. People are going to migrate somewhere else, they're going to panic and they're going to think, oh my God, like we just lost a bunch of people. So we no longer have eyes on the website. So now our ad revenues going down. Because they're looking at the numbers of people who are hanging out on the platform every single day. Right? My prediction, and if I'm wrong, what, whatever, my prediction is they will roll this back. And the people who have stayed consistent on LinkedIn, maybe not like devoted as much time as they used to, but like can still like post regularly, still engage a bit on their audience's stuff. Those are the people who are gonna see like the biggest climb once they roll this back. That's my prediction. Could be wrong. Right. But again, like, this is the name of the game when we have a business. You know, there are things in marketing that worked 20 years ago that don't work anymore. Right?

Yeah, yeah.

So like this is always going to happen. We're always going to have like, okay, here is the solid marketing stream that we use. And then all of a sudden something changes. You know, like the town square evolves. Like in the old days, before we had social media, before we had the Internet, you know, literally you could have the best location on the most profitable main street in a really, really, like high income town. But then a flood could come in and wipe out some of the key businesses and then foot traffic goes down and then you're right, your location doesn't do anything at that point. Right? There's always going to be something, there's always going to be a flood or an algorithm change or whatever. So like, we just have to learn how to pivot, stick with the things that like, have been good until it's Proven to absolutely not work anymore.

Yeah, I think the number of like two or three week old things I'm seeing is an indication of how many people have stopped putting time into posting new content because they have to surface old content. So I mean, that's my guesstimation of like, the only reason I'm seeing this much old content is because there's not enough new content because people are spending less time on this platform creating new content.

Yep. Yeah, right now I'm honestly only posting old content that I've already posted. I'm going through my years of content and just like reposting, editing it a bit so it's like, you know, different word for word, but you know, until this, until this works itself out. And again, I'm fairly confident it will, but until it works itself out and they like figure out like this isn't working anymore. Yeah, like we just have to make sure that we're putting ourselves, you know, wherever our market is, you know, and we have to be patient because it all takes time. So.

Yeah.

Yeah. Cool. Okay, so I'm going to be doing a little substack training video.

And can I modify my previous ask a little bit around when we're planning for like speaking or event?

Oh, yeah.

Okay. Yes.

Modify that slightly to think about is it even worth doing things in person or is the ROI close enough or just as good to do things virtually and to focus more on like podcasts or doing lives, stuff like that.

I honestly, I'm seeing a huge swing towards in person stuff and that because people are really starved for human contact. So here's what I want you to do that I think is going to be really helpful for you. Pick the cities and the areas that you feel safe traveling to. So let's make up that, that is, you know, Seattle, San Francisco, Portland. Right. And then I want you to go to the Google machine and I want you to look up like Portland, Oregon conferences and then whatever, like industry name that you can just plug in there. And it doesn't necessarily have to be like that one industry. You could have like 17 different industries that you search for, but you want to see whatever meetings or conferences are happening in 2026 for, for that industry in that city. And then basically just go down the list of all the conferences that show up and create an Excel spreadsheet or a Google sheet of the name of the event, the date, if they have any instructions for speaker applications, like they may have a link to apply. They may also have like the email for the organizer. And then like look at if there's any other data points like who the typical attendee is, how many people show up, is it multi day, you know, things that you're going to have to think about like when you're, when you're considering, is it worth it for you? Like what has their attendance been in the past? And honestly I, I would go to an event that has 50 plus people historically if I were you, just to like start getting your speaker reel up. Right. Especially if it's not much travel for you. So a make that little database for yourself of all the people and all the, all the events that are happening in the cities that you feel safe with and then the outreach for people that or for folks that just have an email and there's no application process is pretty simple. Your very first email to them is going to be subject line, quick question. And then hey Doris or whatever their first name is. I see you have an event, this event with the name coming up on this date in 2026. Quick question. Are you currently accepting external speakers or speakers from outside your community? Let me know either way. Have a great day. Ellie. Right. Because that email, like they can respond just yes or no. It's so easy for them to just knock it off their plate. Right. If they respond yes, your follow up question then is amazing. What's the process to apply to speak? Right. You're already in a conversation with them at that point. Right. And I guarantee you they have a gazillion things they're trying to work out for this event. Like if they can, if a speaker is coming to them and they have speaker spots they need to fill. Amazing. Does that make sense?

Yes. Yeah, I think that's a good, that's a good first step and a great exercise for chat GPT.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Um, and then I mean honestly we can talk through how to put together your talk or you can play with ChatGPT and say, hey listen ChatGPT, um, I want to be speaking at these types of events. Um, this is what I do. My hope is that they will want to book me for the inspirational talk I can give. Um, and that I will attract my ideal clients for this type of work. Please ask me a bunch of questions that I can answer to so that you can help me formulate the right keynote talk.

I like that bit about and attract this type of client because I don't think I've always included that part. It's much more like oh, here's what I've talked on before and yes, right, right.

And then of course, like, it's going to give you a version. You and I can also go through that and kind of go line by line and say, okay, well, this is giving to, like, too much information. We want to back out and talk more about, like, the pain or the benefit of doing this. Does that make sense? Oh, I can't hear you for some reason. I see you. I see you unmuting and muting. Anyway, but, like, this is a. Oh, okay, cool. So. But this is kind of a big project, so, like, first step is create that database. And then what I would do is I would send out a batch of emails on Mondays, and then if you haven't heard back from them by Thursday, respond back to that email and say, hey, just popping to this top of your inbox in case you missed it. Please let me know either way. And I still can't hear you if you're talking, But, yeah, I think I'm just going to keep talking. I think, honestly, doing in person is going to be really, really fruitful in 2026. I'm. I'm already seeing people get more clients from in person with my other clients as well. Any other questions on that? Ellie? If you're. If your audio or your thing is cutting out, if you wanted to type it in, I can also answer that.

Yeah, I just gave up on the earphones.

Okay, got it. Cool. All right. All right, what else we got today? No.

I'm not quite far enough to ask this question yet, but I think I. I'm working towards having a, like, publishing date, and I was trying to put together a marketing calendar. So that's one where maybe I might start it and would love some help and feedback from you, but I'm not absolutely quite yet to ask. You have some sort of template that you have used before that you know?

I don't have a template, but what I would recommend doing is start making a list of podcasts, radio shows, like, local news channels, and like. Like bookstores. Like, big bookstores that you feel would be great for you to go and do a reading at, you know, like, one. One bookstore. I forget the name, but that comes to mind is like, Ann Patchett's Bookstore in. In Nashville.

Okay. Yeah, you know, I know what you're talking about. There's a. There's a. A couple in Boulder that are like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then like, once you compile that, it's going to be so much easier for us to be like, okay, cool. These are the ones that you're reaching out to. To do a Reading. These are the ones that you're reaching out to, to be interviewed on. These are the ones that you're reach, like, you know, be a guest on their podcast, blah, blah, blah. Right. And then the pitch is just, you know, like, we'll customize each one for each. Right. And then. Yeah. And then go from there.

Yeah. And then I. Yeah. Still working on Tik Tok. Book reviewers. Yeah, Got a few of those.

Yeah. And then, I mean, if you can get a solid, I don't know how expensive it's going to be for you to, you know, get 50 books and ship them everywhere. But, like, if you can get a decent amount of people on TikTok to, you know, read the book, review it, you know, they like it, they hate it, whatever that's going to help you get in front of more people. Yeah.

Just sending it to them or at least maybe now starting a spreadsheet with how they work with people or what they're open to, just.

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

What's the book going to be about, Margaret?

It is. Well, it's about me. It's memoir, but it's sort of also a coaching. A coaching book. And it's about the journey of growing up in a pretty dysfunctional family that looked really good from the outside and wasn't and how it just how in that family of origin, I became very adaptive and very strategic and. And, you know, 11 out of 10 on the pleaser scale and some of the experiences that happened to me more recently in last five or ten years that have helped me reverse course there. That is what the book is about. So. Yeah.

So exciting. I'm so excited.

Yes.

I think a lot of people want to read that.

Yeah.

So I hope so.

Yeah. Well, and Margaret, I urge you to also, like, where do you want to travel next year? Where do you want to, like, go on vacation, you know, and then find really cool bookstores in those locations and reach out to them.

Right.

You know, also there are some, like, psychologists, therapists that have a following on social media. Reach out to them, you know, ask them if they would be, you know, interested in doing some kind of collab or if they do, if they do a podcast or they do lives to do something like that.

There are a few on Instagram that seem to have, you know, gazillions of followers who I follow also and who, yeah, seem to be really good with these quippy.

Yeah, yeah, totally.

Got it. Yeah.

Cool. Yeah. Amazing. What else?

No word back yet from Elizabeth Gilbert, so, you know, I tried.

Honestly. No, no, no, still happen.

Could still.

You keep trying. You keep emailing.

Okay.

Keep emailing and keep emailing and keep emailing. Okay. What's her face? From my first Tori Dunlap. It took her three years of outreach to get on, you know, Abby Wambach and Glennon Doyle podcast.

Okay. Well, yeah, I mean, I sent off a. I sent off an email to Glennon Doyle and got an auto response with like, if your request is this, if your request is that. And I'm like, those. None of those is my request, so.

Right. I. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, you know, hunting down their agent.

Yeah.

You know, figuring out, you know, what's the booking process, seeing who's been booked. Do you have any people in common? I mean, I want. I give you full permission to be as aggressive as possible. Okay. Being a people pleaser. This is. This is. We're going meta with this.

Yeah.

Right. You get to be aggressive to get your message out there. Because this is going to change the lives of so many people who read this. Right. Because they're going to be like, oh, my God, like, I. I am a Margaret. I do that. Holy shit. Like, ah, I don't have to be this way anymore. I can change and I won't die. Yeah, right. That's amazing. Like, you get to be a vigilante, like, aggressive. Like, you know, Joan of Arc about going out there and making sure that you get in front of as many eyes as possible. Right. And be annoying. Right. Because what you think is annoying is probably what they deal with all the time.

It's probably true.

Right. And guess what? Mediocre white dudes do this all the time. They don't even think about it.

Yeah. You want to hear a funny story about how I got my first job? Yeah. All right. So I. I applied to Conde Nast in New York, is they have like, you know, a whole hr, and you do your application to the company, and then if they have a job at a particular magazine, they might be in touch with you, but you don't get to pick which magazine. And so I turn in my application and, you know, and this is before cell phones, so just so you understand, because that's relevant to this story. And, you know, one day I get like, I come home and there's an answer, you know, answering machine message for me. And. And I call back and of course, don't get the person on the phone. And the next day my mom happens to be visiting and my mom, who is so over on the other end of the spectrum of aggressive, like, we're walking around New York and every time we stop in a store, she's like, ask them to use the phone. Call them again. So, you know, I'm like, calling every hour until finally the assistant who I've now talked to eight times, like, completely loses her shit with me. You know, like, will you stop calling? Like, I have your messages. And then, you know, like, the next day, guess what? Her boss calls. Like, I'm really sorry my assistant yelled at you. Why don't you come in? So, I mean, it ended up getting me my job, even though it was like.

Right.

So over the edge for me and what I was comfortable with, but sort of funny.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but it didn't. It didn't ruin the opportunity for you.

Right. And pissing off, you know, like, the assistant of, you know, I mean, I never saw her.

Right.

And once I worked there, you know, I got the job once I worked there. But anyway, it was funny.

Yeah. I mean, and you're. Yeah. But here's the thing we want to think about. Their job is to entertain their audience. Right. And, like, right now, they may have a full calendar of people to entertain their audience. Right. And they're getting all these people who are in surplus of what could entertain their audience. There could come a time where they're looking for your exact topic. They're not going to go dig through their. All their email and try to find you.

Right, right.

They're going to look. They have for that time period, and they're going to try to find. Okay, who are the people that we can talk about people pleasing with. Yeah, right. If you're still doing outreach at that point. And they're like, oh, we've heard from this lady. She's been pretty consistent. Like, and here's. And you can update it with, you know, I did a talk at this place, and I did talk at this place. I was on this podcast. You can add to it each time and show them, hey, listen, I'm serious. I'm promoting my book. But, like, here's what we could talk about.

Yeah.

I mean, that makes it that much easier for them to make a decision either way. Yeah, right.

Yeah.

So Margaret actually reminded me of one of the companies that I worked with.

Uhhuh.

So their whole thing, they worked in the, like, the sales space. So essentially what they did is they had software that helped you not have to enter data into Salesforce anymore, into, like, tracking all of that. And there's so many companies that do this. And so, like, if you call up a sales Manager and you say, oh, I have this thing. Like, no one's picking up, no one's returning your emails. So what they were doing is they had this swag where they sent out like mini. I don't even know where they found these, but it's like these mini hammers and mini keyboards and they basically just sent it out to as part of like their key, like their key customers that they wanted to target. And it was just like, how much would you love to just smash your keyboard so. So you never have to enter this data again? And then that worked like, that got people to call them back because it was like this tactile thing that they got to actually smash something with. And so why that made me think of you is like, you could send somebody something with a tiny hammer to smash something with. Because I know that if somebody sent me something to smash a hammer with, I would love that. And I'd be like, I want to see what this person's about because there's plenty of pent up rage for so many of us. And it's like giving me permission to unleash a little bit. And like, that seems very in line with what you've got going on.

Yeah, yeah, that's funny. We. A personal growth thing that I did called Hoffman, we use bats, like the full ball bats. And it is, you know, the very somatic, like, get rid of the things you don't like anymore. And it was important to me and I.

And that would be, yeah, it's like, here's your permission to smash this thing.

Yeah, right.

And like that's what my book's about, is like giving yourself permission. Whatever, whatever, however you want to phrase that. But like, even something like that could be enough to just get people to be like, this is freaking cool. She gave me something to smash. I want to talk to her.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. Thank you.

Yeah, I love that.

Yeah.

Okay, awesome. Well, that brings us. We have about three minutes left. Any other questions before we do a main takeaway? No. Going once, going twice. Okay, who wants to do their main takeaway first?

I'm ready for substack. Even though it feels exhausting having spent a year trying to fight my way to someplace on LinkedIn. But you know what? Maybe, maybe substack will feel more aligned, you know, and it will feel less frustrating a year from now.

Right. And honestly, like, best case scenario, you then have substack and LinkedIn.

Right. I have both.

Both generating like LinkedIn has not shut down.

Right. So.

Right. And I'm still getting clients from LinkedIn.

As am I. Yeah.

Right. So, like, it's still working. It's just not working the way it used to. Right. But, yeah.

Yeah. I also want to fight LinkedIn. Margaret, it's not just you.

This. It's anti. It's like, antithetical to how my writing works and how my brain works.

Yes.

You know, it's like, yeah, it feels.

Often when you spend time doing something and then it's like crickets, but it just feels really good.

Feel weird. Yeah. Like, I'm too eccentric for LinkedIn.

No, no, you're not too. Anything for anyone. You're. You're calibrated just right for the people you need to. Need to be with. That's my belief. So my key takeaway is no one's thinking about you nearly as much as you think they're thinking about you. And just to stop overthinking, like, that's actually something I'm working on. So that's a good reminder and takeaway.

Yeah. Awesome. Can I leave you with something? This is my new, like, approach, dealing with that voice in my head that's like, makes me worried about things that I don't need to be worried about. So there. It's this theory that our brains are basically shitty zookeepers, and our. And, like, we're basically just like zoo animals in an enclosure that needs enrichment. And our shitty zookeeper is like, oh, like, why don't you dig a hole in this corner where there's a gas main? Or, you know, chew on this. It's a live wire, but, like, it'll keep you occupied. Like, you know, and the shitty zookeeper, like, wants to give us things to do even if they're not generative, even if they're not positive or good for us, right? Because it just gives us an activity. So it's like, here's something to stress about. Here's, like, a person that you can think is mad at you. Here's something that you can read way too much into and start spinning out about, because it gives you something to do. Because then you have, like, a meltdown and then you need a snack and then you need a nap, and then, like, your whole day you've had an activity. Right? My zookeeper, Maude, she's the worst zookeeper in the world. Right? But even just acknowledging that, oh, my God, Mod is trying to give me some enrichment right now and it sucks. Right, okay, cool. If Mod's trying to give me that enrichment, what's the enrichment I actually could use? Right? Maybe it's working on a chapter in my book. You know, maybe it's creating some content. Maybe it's going for a walk. Maybe it's calling my best friend. Maybe, like, what is the enrichment that I'm actually creating that's good for me, you know? And we can either, like, think of it that we're in a train mod to be a better zookeeper, or we can bring in another zookeeper who's better.

Yeah.

So your zookeeper wants you to think that everyone is, like, watching every single move you make and they're judging everything. We have have children charts on their wall at home of Ellie and she did this and this and this and this and this. That's not helpful. That's the live wire.

That's.

That's what's going to get you flooding and fleas and all the things. We don't need it. Yes, okay.

Yes. Well, thank you. And I just dropped you a message in the heart app to share the Fathom link.

Okay, thank you. I'll do that right now. Thank you for the reminder.

Yes.

Okay, awesome. Have a great day, everyone. Bye.