Manipulative Sayings

Sam.

Hello and good afternoon, everyone. I'm Katie McManus, your practical business strategist. I'm here today with Lauren Lufkoy, executive coach and owner of Find is a Trap. Hi, Lauren. How are you?

Hi. I'm great. How are you?

I'm great.

I'm really excited for this topic today.

Me too. I'm very excited for it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, just to give everyone a brief summary of how we got to this topic, we're talking about sayings that get twitch twisted so that they can manipulate people. And it came from last week. I shared about how I am going no contact with a family member who voted for 47. I won't say the name. And you know, how it was a really hard decision to make, and unfortunately, like, you know, it ended up hurting their feelings, and I feel very sorry for that, but I can't in good conscience continue that relationship because it just speaks to a different set of morals that I don't find acceptable. And someone in the comments shared that saying, you know, that I think we've all heard that blood is thicker than water. And I've heard this my entire life, and I've heard it used by my family to say we have to excuse bad behavior within the family because blood is thicker than water. Your family will always be there and, you know, like, prioritize that over your friendships. And what I found fascinating was this person, Justin, who commented, said that the original saying, and I want to make sure I'm getting it right, is that the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb, which means. It means the exact opposite of how that saying is used. And so Lauren and I started talking about this. And, Lauren, you brought up a couple others that, you know, again, were twisted in a way that manipulates people. And I just find it so, so profoundly up. But I thought it would be such a great thing to talk about.

Totally messed up. Yeah. So the one that I recently learned the end of was curiosity killed the cat. And curiosity killed the cat is. Is basically the, like, cutesy way of saying shut up, Right?

Yeah, it's right.

You know, I don't want to hear it. Shut your mouth. You know, quiet down. But the actual quote finishes with but satisfaction brought it back, which changes the whole meaning of the quote from, like, the cat got too curious, so it put its nose in places that didn't belong. Sometimes it pays off.

Yeah.

And it's like. And you know me very well, Katie, and I'm. I am fairly risk avoidant. So for A fairly risk avoidant person who has changed her whole life, started her own business, moved to a town without knowing anybody. Like all of the these risk things, things that I've done were, were previously tempered by like, there's safety in just like doing what I know and, and helping other people and being the way thing, you know, keeping the things the way things are and learning. The end of that quote for me was like, what a mind.

Yeah.

That we're told curiosity killed the cat. And so we're like, you know, do it safe. Do, do what you know. And so that's one. And then the other was jack of all trades, but a master of none.

Yeah.

Which is like, you know, a little bit of the don't put all your eggs in one baskets mentality. But the, the finish of that quote, now I can't remember it, but it's basically, you know, but it's, it's better than a master of nothing. Like, or, you know, it's better. The, the whole sentiment of the quote is like, it's better to be good at a bunch of things than.

Right.

Amazing at one thing.

Well, so here it is. So a jack of all trade, master of none, though, oftentimes better than the master of one.

Right? Yes. Thank you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which, I mean, honestly, as someone with adhd, I have always heard the jack of all trades, master of non. And I, I think it's very shaming for the fact that I have so many interests and I will go really deep on an interest for a little while and then lose interest and then move on, but I still retain that, that level of mastery in that one little thing and that, you know, that that's not good enough.

Right, Right.

Like, if I'm going to be a mass or a jack of all trades, I'm never going to master any of them. And you know, and it's like, it's kind of a diss for people who are multi. Interested.

Yeah.

Or who have changed their career numerous times and do different things.

Yeah. And that also speak. That also speaks to like, there's birds of a feather flock together, which is like, go find your community and like, be with like people and all of that. The end of that quote is birds of a feather flock together until the cat comes.

Yeah, yeah. When it's easy, people who are similar to each other will stay together. But once it gets hard and danger comes, they're gonna abandon each.

Yeah, yeah.

So what I find so fascinating about all this is that, I mean, these are all things that a narcissistic system would want you to believe so that you prioritize the comfort of the people in the narcissistic system over your own well being.

Yes.

Right.

Yes.

Yeah.

And so that you are not just prioritizing it, but like fully in service of it.

Right, right, right.

All of the, the, all of these quotes, their endings are like, they're, they're telling. The endings of the quotes are telling you it's worth it.

Right?

It's worth it to do the thing you want to do. It's worth it to find your, your find family and friends where you want to find family and friends where you, you know, it's, it's all well and good to be with like minded people, but sometimes you have to go out on your own to find your own safety. It's, you know, the, the freedom and the flight is in the end of each of those quotes.

Right.

The system to quiet us down and smother us and hold us in chains. Is the, is the first half of.

The quote totally or how the quote is bastardized in some way? Yes. I actually looked up a whole, a whole list of these and the first one on the list actually speaks to me as a business strategist because it's something that I see a lot of my clients come up against. So you know that saying, the early bird gets the worm.

Yes.

Yeah, so. So a lot of people think of that and they think, oh, well, if I'm not the first one to do it or if I don't get up early enough in the day, or if I'm not like on it, like right away, then it's not worth doing.

Yeah, right.

That the early bird gets the worm. The second half of the same. Do you know what it is?

I don't.

Okay, so it's the early word. The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. Which you get it.

Right.

Because for those of you who, who don't understand how mouse traps work, the first mouse dies, but the second mouse is like, cool, you, you got free ch.

Fine. Right?

I mean, as a business person, as someone who like, yeah, maybe, maybe you slept in one morning or maybe someone else did the thing first, but I mean, to imagine that second mouse, they're watching how the first person screws up, they're watching how that plays out and then they find a better way to do it.

Right, Right.

Whereas the way that that saying is used like the early bird gets the worm is like, it discounts anything else you might do if you're not the first person to do it.

Right.

And I think this goes into this mentality that we have around. Like, you either do it first and you do it perfectly and you do it on the first try, or you're a complete failure versus. No, no. Like, you can hang back. You can hang back and you can observe and you can take your time and actually it may work out better for you in that case. I love this. A bad apple spoils the bunch. I wonder what the rest of the saying is.

Yeah, I wonder what the rest of the saying is too, anyway.

But yeah, isn't that fascinating?

Yeah, it's fascinating. One of my favorites that I came across was the Great Minds Think Alike, which is like, I used to joke with my friends, if we would say the same thing at the same time, we would say like, oh, great minds think alike. And we would finish with, and so do ours. You know, we're mediocre, but we're. But. But the actual end of that quote is so relevant in what's happening in the US Today, which is great. Great minds think alike. Small minds rarely differ.

Right.

And it's this, you know, group think mentality that when we get. We all get like on the same page about something, we may not be on the right people page or the productive page or the safe page or the moral page. Right. There's like, there's like this ganging up mentality.

Right, Right.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah. You know, and of course, being the person to speak out is uncomfortable and it makes everyone else uncomfortable.

Yeah.

Another one that I. I pulled up, which, where is it, is winning isn't everything. You've heard that.

Yeah. Winning isn't everything. It's the only thing.

Yeah, exactly. But no one, no one hears that last bit.

Right.

You know, it's like, oh, honey, winning isn't everything. It's fine. It's meant as something to console someone who didn't win.

Right.

Or who's like, really killing themselves trying to, like, do the thing.

Yes.

Yeah.

Oh, oh.

And then the. The cnt connoisseur. I'm not sure what. Oh, God. That's okay. I understand the name now.

Oh, my God.

Cool. Whatever. Whatever you want to name yourself. That's great. They commented. I'm not going to put it up again. Sorry to get political. That just took me out.

Yep. I was. I didn't get it originally either, but I'm there now.

I was like, what does that stand for? Oh, okay. Be funny if it doesn't stand for that. And they don't.

Right.

They say, sorry to get political. But whenever people defend the police, they say that there's just a few bad apples.

Yeah.

But. Yeah, a bad apple spoils the bunch. Get it? Yes. Okay, moving on. I'm blushing probably by the color of my shirt anyway.

Yeah.

Let'S see. What was the other one that I found really interesting? Oh, this one comes up a lot when I work on a relationship with money with my clients. That's saying money is the root of all evil. That's not actually the original thing.

What is it?

The original phrase is for the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.

Right.

And there's so much more nuance in that phrase than money is the root of all evil.

Right, Right.

You. You take like the love of money like someone who loves money in an unhealthy way. Like that is the root of evil of all kinds of evil. Like it could, it could create bad things in the world versus here's this thing that it's an absolute. This one thing is the root of all evil. You know, take all the nuance out. And a lot of people when, especially when they, you know, are very aligned to being a good person and that is a deep seated goal for them in how they want to live their life. You know, you put them in a situation where they have to start asking for money. They've never sold before. They've never had to ask someone to pay them directly. They always just had a job where they got a salary. You ask them to start working on their relationship with money, and they have associated money with evil. And here they put themselves in a situation where they have to constantly ask for money for people to pay them for their services. It's so hard. But when you add more nuance to it and you give them some, some context for what the saying actually means and what money actually is, it's not a good thing or a bad thing on its own. It's. It's how you relate to it that can make it good or problematic or evil. Yeah, it's a big part of the work.

Yeah, it's, it's. It is fascinating to me how we pick and choose in language and, and how that becomes like a societal norm to stop us.

Right, right.

And the, the comment from our connoisseur in the chat.

I hope they're enjoying. I hope they enjoy that. We got such a weird laugh out of that.

Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, my God. When I, when I get. This is just a complete aside. When I get old, I. I actually think it would be really funny to Just be a very thoughtful commentator on lives like this and have a completely like unhinged name that like gives people pause. Like how does that. Oh my word. You know.

Yeah.

Yeah. Anyway, what were you saying?

Sorry, I have no idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, you know, we, I think there's, there's a lot of like just in, in our lives, in society, we, we, we have a negative bias. We know that we're born with a negative bias. You know, evolution has made it so that we're always looking for danger. And while there are no lions currently chasing us and they would probably here have to escape from some sort of a zoo or a private, privately owned, illegal lion owner. You know, we are inherently trained to look out for danger.

Right.

And language helps us curb ourselves.

Right, Right.

So if you go back to like the money is the root of all evil quote, I know a lot of people who are in service based careers included who have a belief that the service and the money are not a match.

Right, Right.

I'm good at this thing. I do this thing, I provide this service and like it comes easily to me and people need it and people can't get done what they need to get done without me providing this service.

Right.

And in, you know, full disclosure, everybody, Katie is my coach and also my, my, one of my best friends and one of the things that we have done a lot of work on is me understanding that there is of financial value in the work that I produce and the work that I deliver and in the way that I partner with my clients. I'm there now, but for 15 years before I started working with a, with a coach and I just side gigged in coaching, I didn't charge people or I felt bad charging people or I said like, oh, just pay me whatever you think. Can you imagine going to your doctor who also provides a service and saying to your, and saying to your doctor like let me pay you for this and having your doctor say like, oh no, no, no, no, no, I just found, I just found your cancer. It's no big deal.

Right, Right.

I do it for everybody. It's like it doesn't work like that. And somehow in society, because we've said money is the root of all evil and the real meaning of the quote is the love of money. In other words, money at the exclusion of everything else.

Right.

Is the root of all evil because we have taken that as money is an evil. If we do a job that feels like a do good job, there's like this sense of evil doing by Collecting money for it.

Right, Right.

Well, and it's funny because like even, even you're instinctively shortening it back to what you are familiar with.

Right.

Because the saying is. Is root of all kinds of evils.

Right.

Say it again.

For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evils.

Right.

It's not necessarily all evils.

Right.

You know, it's just like there's a lot of evils that come from the act of loving money.

Right, Right.

Not necessarily everything.

Correct.

Right.

However, like that blanket, like.

I know, I'm so. We're so well trained in what. Yeah. What's said colloquially.

Colloquially.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah. But I mean like it, it really does get like branded in your brain so that you're constantly coming back to that initial saying. Yeah, yeah.

And we. And, and on the curiosity one, like I, I was thinking about this last night when we were. When you know, I was thinking about our live today when we're kids, there are tons of children's books and about how things work, why. Answering the question of why, you know, bunches of curiosity. And then we're told to like be quiet, be in school, listen to our elders who know more than we do and sort of fit. Fit in. And then we become like very grown adults and we start questioning things again. And that's called philosophy.

Yeah. Yep.

Right. It's like this ethereal, theoretical, but not. You can't put it into practice. But let's explore. Like every religion has, not just Bibles, but like every religion has books of why and, and deep exploration and, and, and philosophy around things. And it's like a, a side quest to even read about that or listen to anything about that and, and get curious again. Like we have to reteach ourselves as adults to question things, which is how countries, societies get into situations. Like we're in.

Right.

Where we, we are quieted and we, we. Until we are in pain, we don't typically do anything. And you're, you're seeing it now with all of these people who voted.

Yep.

And now they're coming on and they're creating these tick tocks and these reels and saying like. And I never imagined it would impact me.

Right.

Because I'm a woman or I'm black or I have kids or I am gay or whatever it is because they got such a sense of authority and rightness.

Right.

That they just followed it and trusted it.

Yep.

And they are shocked that they're not included in some imaginary protected group. Yeah.

Right.

Well.

And I think there's there's this deep impact of having a sound bite that sounds good.

Right.

I was talking to our mutual friend David and he was saying how his kids will come home from school and be able to quote off like sound bites from the 47 administration that they hear.

Right.

From other 7 year olds, from other 10 year olds.

Right, right.

They can. It's like, it's so simplistic and it's so join our club that they're able to not only absorb it, memorize it, but parrot it back.

Right, Right.

And on the left, we don't have that.

Right.

For one, like the left is far more diverse. Right. So we stand for a gazillion things versus, you know, that side stand for just a few things.

Right, Right.

And also, I mean, like it, with all these sayings, it's such a great example of how we are all so conditioned to just be handed a rule for like the curiosity killed the quat. The cat.

Great.

Don't ask questions done.

Right.

You know, we're already programmed for that. And so then we get sucked into like the rhetoric that we're hearing and it just, just makes sense because we're programmed to just not question. We've been told our whole lives that money is evil. We've been told our whole lives that this is bad and that is bad and we should be this and we should be that, you know, when in actuality all of those things were bastardized. To try to be manipulative.

Right.

Instead of to empower autonomy. Yeah. You know, you know this. But some people who are watching may not. I'm running for office right now, and I did a campaign event on Saturday and I was. Side note, I was shocked how much more nervous I was speaking to a group of people that had people, I went to high school in it, like there in the room with me than I am ever speaking publicly on stages in front of people. I don't know.

Yep.

Wild. I was like, I was very, very nervous. But anyway, I was talking to a bunch of my, my former classmates after the fact, and we were all saying how stupid, sick and tired we are for people just telling us not to buy avocado toast.

Yes.

Right.

Like that is not the problem. That is not the root of why we can't afford to buy houses. That is not this, that is not why we're having a hard time saving money or, you know, preparing for a potential retirement that honestly may not ever happen for a lot of people in my generation.

Yeah, right.

But like, as a society, it, it's so Much easier for the status quo to just gaslight people that they are the problem, right? That their instinct that, like, they're what they're clocking as. This isn't right. Like, that's wrong. You're the problem. Just stop being the problem, and it'll get better.

Right, right.

Right.

Even though people. People know that, like, you can. You can just not order avocado toast all day and still not be able to buy a house. You can even be fully allergic to avocados, right? You could.

You. You could build a house, A house out of avocado seeds, right?

There's.

There's no limit to what avocado can do for you.

Can you imagine if they all started sprouting at the same time, and then all of a sudden, like, it just, like, traps you inside?

I'm trapped in my avocado house.

Anyway.

Yeah.

No. Oh, my God. That would be, like, the slowest horror movie ever. You'd be like, oh, no, it's growing. I should probably just walk out.

I should get out of here.

Hey, I have, like, two years to move out. Hollywood. If you want to film this, we're here.

We're here.

We got the idea anyway. But we're so. But we're so programmed to just accept gaslighting on a societal level.

Yeah, right. And I think on the avocado toast point, you know, that the. There was that rhetoric, like, now it's sort of a joke, right? Like, it's. It's sort of a meme. Living meme. But when it started, there was no acknowledgment of how inflation has impacted the cost of things and how the. The paid work economy has not grown at the same rate.

Right.

It really was like, anybody older than the millennial generation was like, yeah, you should have bought a house. Stop avocado toast. Stop the Starbucks. Stop the manicures. Stop. Right?

And.

And then finally somebody came out with a calculation and was like, you'll. You'll save something. Like, if. If you go to get avocado toast several times a week and coffee several times a week, and you completely stop, you might save $12,000 a year. Right? You might, right? But, like, it was just so absurd to see this, like, visual that our younger society was prioritizing luxury foods over basic housing.

Right?

And to, like, really see it laid out.

Right?

I mean, it is such a joke that. And I sold a condo last year that I owned for 16 years. I'm a Gen X. I'm a younger Gen Xer. I sold a condo that I had owned for 16 years, and I just happened to be in the pocket of a city where the neighborhood was rebuilt around me. Like, the other parts of the neighborhood were older than mine. Those were rebuilt around me, so they were going for triple and quadruple the price of my condo.

Right.

And my condo was in, like, very good shape in a very good neighborhood, and it didn't appreciate.

Right.

And so, you know, I made a tiny bit of money on it, but it wasn't like I made the smart investment, bought a house, and, you know, now I'm walking away with hundreds of thousands of dollars. Like, I got some of my mortgage money back and a little, little, little bit on top of that.

Right.

And I can't afford to buy a house now because I didn't get enough money out of what I already bought. So I'm, like, in the same place as millennials and gen zers in that the cost of housing, of owned housing, is so far out of reach that if you didn't get lucky in a lower housing economy, Right. And then keep upgrading and upgrading and upgrading. Like, you're in the rental. You're in the rental district, and that's okay. I'm happy to be a renter for as long as I want to be a renter.

Right.

But we. It's. It. It was a way to, like, temper us down and say, like, well, I guess avocado is more important to me than owning a house.

Yeah, yeah.

Yep. We're that lazy luxury generation.

Totally. Totally. Well, and, you know, I've been thinking about this a lot on a personal level, and, you know, now that I'm running for office, because, like, you know, part of the reason why I'm running for office is because when I gave up on Philadelphia, I decided it was not the city that I wanted to be in. I didn't know where I wanted to move. I can live anywhere. That's a lot of choices, right? And so I was like, okay, cool. Well, my parents, like, don't use half of their house on Cape Cod.

Cool.

So, like, let me throw myself in storage and just go hang out there while I try to figure out where I want to move. And over time, like, I wasn't excited for anywhere. I'm still, like, you know, open to discovering where feels like home for me. But for right now, I would like to be close to my family, my parents and my sister, and I can't find housing on Cape Cod. And it's this thing that, like, I started talking about how hard it is to Find. Because there are only currently three houses for rent on Cape Cod. Two are three bedrooms, two baths, and one is 3,500amonth, the other is 4,200amonth, which is insane if you're trying to attract, like teachers and first responders and healthcare workers. Like, literally, we can't keep doctors here.

Yeah.

They can't afford to live here. And the other One is a four bedroom for 4100amonth.

Yeah.

Right.

And that's insane. How are you, how are you expecting to spend money on rent and save for a house if you're a person with a normal job?

Yep.

Right.

And it's. And I'm talking to more and more people who are my age who are maybe slightly younger. Everyone is living with their parents. Everyone. Or they were able to buy the house from their parents, or they inherited a house from their grandparents and they're able to live there. But that's the only way people are able to afford to live on Cape Cod. And yet, like, it's fascinating to me that there is this secrecy around it, like, as if it is inherently shame.

Shameful. Yep.

When, what is it, like 100 years ago, less than 100 years ago, it would be perfectly acceptable for someone who is unmarried to just stay with their family.

Right.

There would be no expectation for someone to move out and go and become independent. We've been sold so hard, sold this idea of independence because it makes businesses money.

Right.

Because we're not actually meant to be. We're not a species that's meant to, like, go and thrive all by ourselves. We're meant to thrive. Oh, gosh. Are we frozen? Oh, no. Lauren, you there?

Did I freeze?

Oh, someone please tell me, can you hear me? Oh, okay, I was just calling. Okay, okay, okay.

I was just calling you. That's so funny.

Okay, no, but I was saying, like, you know, as a species, we have evolved to be community speed, like animals. Like, we are meant to thrive in community with other people. And yet we've been sold this bill of good that we should be like, in an apartment by ourselves. And we should be doing this, we should be doing that, we should be able to do it all. And we need a village.

And quite frankly, as women.

Yeah.

It's even. It's even worse. Right. Because we, when we were living with our parents, if we weren't unmarried, it was like, shameful.

Right.

It wasn't shameful that we lived with our parents. It was shameful that we were unmarried.

Yep.

And so then there was this, like, rise of independence. In like the 40s and 50s of working girls, Right. Coming out of their homes, getting their own apartments with roommates, living in a, like a boarding house with a, with a sort of mother figure. Right. And, and that is not lucrative for the economy.

Right, Right.

Because if you're living in a group house, then you're, you know, you're paying less. It's only one home, it's owned by one person. And so then there became the push in the like 80s, 90s of like, get your own place, you can do whatever you want. And the more we are separated, the more we are not in a community. You and I live in separate houses. We are paying for two separate sets of properties. We are. Right. Like there's, we have to have our own cars. We can't share a car. And so we keep segmenting out all of these individualized needs which boost the economy.

Right.

Except our income. Nobody's income is growing at the rate that inflation in the economy grows.

Totally. So it just can't keep up with it.

Right, Right.

But anyway, but it's like we've been, again, we've been sold this bill of goods that this is what is socially acceptable. This is what we should be doing.

Right?

Right.

And I don't know about you. When I lived in San Francisco and I had like one roommate, like I would pay for someone else to do my laundry.

Right.

I would, I would do like meal prep kits, you know, because like I was working full time, I was trying to have a social life, I was trying to like do all the healthy things, but it's too much to do on your own.

Right.

And to the point, you know, for women, even if you do partner up and move in with someone, you know, usually like a male partner in particular, your work increases, it doesn't decrease.

Right.

You know, statistically, women still do what, 70, 80% of the housework and then it's that much more because there's another person there.

Right? Absolutely. And if you are living with another woman or non binary person or trans person, your income is likely lower.

Right, Right.

So even if you are both doing the share of work and like the, the, the labor of living together, then you're not bringing in as much money, so you can't afford as many conveniences.

Right.

It's like the oppression just keeps. Yeah. Knocking you down a notch at a time.

Right.

And I, I just, I can't tell you how many times I've had a conversation with someone and they're feeling shame around the fact that like it's too expensive for them to live by themselves.

Yeah.

You know, they're feeling shame that like they have to have roommates or they're living with family or whatever. And it's like actually like if we look at how humans have evolved over time, like that is the model. That is how humans actually thrive. Yeah.

Right.

And among our friend group, we're waiting for like the day when all of the spouses are gone so we can just build a commune on one property.

I.

But like, I don't actually hate the idea.

I don't either. Yeah.

We all went on vacation last year together and I honestly, it couldn't have been a more supportive.

Oh my God.

Somebody was running out to Target, took orders from everybody who needed anything. We basically built a socialist community. Like, oh, no, don't worry about it because this person's baking for us and that person ordered the deli platters and you know, and we just like lived in this lovely of service little mini community for a week. And it was a delight.

Well, and what I loved about it was the level of kin keeping. It wasn't just making sure that everyone's base needs were needed. It was. Hey, I remember you said briefly that you like Diet Coke. So I got a fuck ton of Diet Coke.

Right.

I know. When I was at the grocery store, I remember that Ariel said that she liked pickles and I was like, cool, let me get her some pickles. But I mean, there were countless instances. I can't remember the rest of them, but there were countless instances of I overheard you say that you liked this or this made you happy. So I made sure when I was out here to go and get that. Yeah. I still have the sun hat you bought me.

Yep.

You know.

Yep.

So it's not just having your base needs met. It is.

Oh, it's the thoughtfulness, it's the consideration.

And yeah, yeah, it is like, it's almost like spiritual tending.

Yeah.

You know, it is joyful, like harvesting and investing in that, you know, in creating joyful experiences for other people, making sure other people know that they're cared about.

Yep.

Valued.

Yeah. Yeah. And there's something really beautiful about like being with people who you're. Who you have a comfort level with.

Right.

And we were. About half of us were strangers.

Right.

But. But having the mentality of being with and not just being in the same room as my friend. Mary Jo was here for the, for a long weekend and she was my roommate for a short time in between when I sold my condo very quickly. And then when I moved to my new house and there's a comfort level we have and a consideration that we have that it's almost a dance.

Yeah.

Right.

That, that being together is very easy. We can say, I'm going to go do this and take our space. We can go do things together. We can split the cost of certain things. And, and it all comes very naturally when you're in that mode or you're with that type of person and then you come back into like the, the daily of society. And we are expected to isolate. We're expected to. We are not independent unless we do everything by ourselves.

Right.

And that creates people like me who every day fight against my inclination to be hyper independent, to do it all myself, to isolate, to say, like, I should solve my own problems. And I think you and I both find that in our client base that, like, we attract these high achievers who feel like they have to do a thing before they do a thing.

Right.

I have to sort out all of my stuff and all of my problems. I can come to my coach or my strategist and tell them what I've already done to be successful so that they can like, help me up level but not help me get like the baseline stuff.

Right.

It's the, like working out and getting, getting fit before I hire a trainer so I can show the trainer I already know how to get fit.

Yeah.

And, and that's what this push is to, to have us be independent is like, you know, get out there, do it yourself. That's the win.

Right.

Otherwise you're too dependent on other people and people will disappoint you.

Right?

Yeah, totally.

Yeah.

There's something fascinating that I heard. It was an interview, I think, between Brene Brown and Adam Grant, and he was saying, you know, what we think builds trust with people actually isn't what builds trust. We think so instinctively. I think if I offer to help you and I help you, that you'll then trust me. It's actually not what will build trust between the two of us. What builds trust is me admitting to you that I need help and asking for it.

Right.

And trusting you first. That, you know, to see me as vulnerable and imperfect and maybe, you know, like not strong and independent in all the things. If you make yourself vulnerable to someone and say, hey, can you help me? They're far more likely to trust you.

Yeah. And the people who have trouble with vulnerability often will keep a list of things that other people have done for them because then they feel this heavy weight of the obligation of payback Right. So it, it doesn't end up building trust, it ends up building guilt.

Right.

About having accepted the help.

Right, yeah.

Which, which is very transactional for sure.

Right.

And if we're live, I mean it's, it's so natural that we've ended up there because we live in a world where I'm supposed to be hyper independent. Other people aren't supposed to have to help me. Okay, do help me. I have to pay it back in some, in some form.

Right.

Versus this collective like no, we're here to like inconvenience each other in a beautiful way.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah. There was another article I read and I forgot who wrote it and I actually read it. This was not a tick tock that I'm saying that I read an article and it was tick tock, but it's half the time. That's what I mean. But it was that like true friendship is based on asking to inconvenience each other.

Right.

So like, you know, would you drive me to the airport? A pain in the ass request. And we've been told to no longer do that.

Right, Right.

Like it's expected that I'm going to spend money on an Uber, a Lyft, a bus, you know, take the train to do it all on my own. Yeah.

Wow, this conversation evolved, huh?

I know, I know, but I know, I know. Like we both have a little. With some narcissists in our past, you know, here and there a little bit. And once you start identifying gaslighting in one system so with sayings and idioms like you start identifying it across the board.

Right.

You start identifying it in other relationships in other systems in our society and it's so hard to stop identifying it. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

And there are so many ways to lean in to community building, to finding like minded people who won't make you small minded.

Right.

To go back to one of the quotes, but to, to finding people who can elevate, you can help, can help you elevate and who you can help elevate and you can build these like micro societies, these micro communities of people who care about a thing you care about or care about each other. And you can really thrive. And it, it helps you recognize when things that are in your life aren't healthy and you have then an opportunity to decide like what do I do with that?

Right.

Where if you isolate yourself the way that we're trained to fix your own problems, solve your own problems, focus on your own stuff.

Yeah.

You keep going through the same cycles without having the recognition that you're allowed to boundary set. You're allowed to make choices that aren't popular with other people in your life. You're allowed to support somebody in whatever way you see fit, whether you charge them for that support, whether you serve in a friend manner, whether you charge large groups of people for things. And there is no evil in recognizing that the work that you do really well has a monetary value. I feel like that's been my life lesson.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100. I mean, the person who builds your house and like, well, you needed a place to live, so don't worry about it.

It's fine.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Because they're not then going to the grocery store and be like, well, I need food. And the grocer's not be like, well, of course you need food. Don't worry about it.

Right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think one of the things that, like, we all get to be the change that we want to see in the world. And I think a big part of that is a being willing to be wrong.

Yeah.

Being willing to, like, get it wrong. You know, like accidentally be that person else a couple times.

Right.

And then turn around and show other people, oh, I did it wrong. Here's how you can wait. And get the cheese.

Yeah.

You know.

Yeah.

Hopefully not with as dire consequences as the actual literal first mouse.

Yeah.

And then also, like being willing to ask questions and being curious and not getting shut down from a system that doesn't want you asking questions.

Right.

Yeah. Interestingly, be the change you wish to see in the world is another misquoted quote.

No way. What is it? What's the original?

The what? What? He. It was similar. He said, we but mirror the world. All the tendencies present in the outer world are to be found in the world of our body. So the paraphrases be the change you wish to be in the world. But what he was saying was, however you are is what you'll see in the world.

Right.

And. But it's funny because when I was looking up the different quotes that get misquoted, I saw that that was something that's attributed to him. And like, what a famous quote, right? It's on T shirts. People have magnet.

It's like, right?

People quote that all over the place. All, all the way. But he wasn't actually saying it as a positive or negative.

Right.

He was just saying, like, we are what we see.

Right.

The universe is a mirror. However you show up is exactly what you're going to identify.

Right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. Which, by the way, if you watch White Lotus, it's okay.

I haven't watched season three yet.

Oh, well, I mean, I think it's true. Across all seasons of White Lotus, you have people who obviously live their life a very specific way, and they expect everyone else to live the exact same way.

Yes.

Right.

So if someone is like, people are out to get you, they just. That's how they live. Yeah. You know?

Yeah, I know. I remember when I was starting my business, there were a couple of people who I'd been helping for free, like, for quite a long time who. Who weren't my besties. Right. Like, my besties still get things from me, and I. If I have a good friend who's an attorney, I can ask them a few questions. Like, I'm not gonna ask them to come to court with me. But, you know, and there were a couple of people who I had to say, like, this is now my business.

Right.

So I am pulling back on the free advice stuff. And so this has to be our last conversation about this. And if you're interested in becoming a client, we can talk about that.

Right.

There were a couple. A couple of people who disappeared from my life, which means that my value to them was the free service I was providing.

Right.

There were a couple people who talked to me about working with me. I got a couple of clients out of people who now heard I was providing this as a paid service who hadn't come to me because, like, oh, I don't want to bother her. And, you know, so now. Now I have this. These structured programs, and I can help you, and you can talk to me about what that is instead of us saying, like, oh, I don't know what I try. Oh, I don't know. What do you need?

Right, right.

But it. It was interesting that, like, I recognized how much value I was providing because when I took it away and they weren't getting that particular value anymore and that was missing from their lives was like, oh, oh, well, Right. And I also felt, oh, well, because I wasn't really getting value on the flip side.

Right, right.

And so it was like, okay, well, now I've opened space in my life to provide the professional service that I want to be providing.

Right.

In a way that's also, like, heart impact for me and financially rewarding.

Right, Right.

Well. And I think there's a distinction to be made around how every relationship we have is an inherent exchange.

Right.

But that doesn't necessarily mean it's transactional.

Correct?

Right.

There's a difference between, oh, well, I did this favor for you, so now you owe me. And, hey, you're my friend. Of course I'm gonna do a favor for you. But, like, the exchange we get is that you're my friend.

Right? Right.

And, like, it creates, like, me doing a favor for you makes a stronger bond between us.

Right.

You know, and, like, you know, friends have that kind of, like, one way, other way, one way, other way kind of exchange all the time. Doesn't necessarily have to be transactional.

Yeah. And when the relationship is deep and layered, it doesn't. We don't think of it as transactional.

Right, Right.

It doesn't even occur to us that it could be transactional.

Right, Right.

Because there is so much give and take.

Right.

And so much togetherness that, like, there's. There's. There's nothing to count.

Right.

It's just, like, existing together.

Right.

Yeah. Yeah. I had. I had an experience several. Several years ago, and I'll be vague about details because I don't want anyone to know who I'm talking about. With a friend who was always trying to do favors for me and would sometimes make problems for me to create a favor that she could do for me. And it was interesting. And I, you know, I very much pulled away when I realized there was this dynamic that was like, make the problem do the favor.

Yeah.

And I remember talking to her when, like, they were. She and her partner were moving out of California to a place where, like, weed wasn't legal. And it was in the middle of the pandemic, and she called me really upset because she had a lot of friends who lived in San Francisco, and if you live in San Francisco, the chances are you do not own a car.

Right.

Public transportation and Uber are the name of the game because there's nowhere to park Fair.

Right.

And she was furious because these friends whom she was like, I've done this favor. She had a long laundry list of all the favors she had, like, forced on them, you know, wouldn't go across town to the dispensary that she wanted her pickup from to pick up her weed for her before she moved.

And.

And it was in that moment that I was like, oh, I understand now.

I see it now. Yeah.

This, like, this was not a friendship. This is like a bank account where you're banking favors, wanting favors back.

Right, Right.

And, like, mind you, this is early days in the pandemic. We, like, people were dying. There were refrigerator trucks of dead bodies everywhere. Like, you know, people were terrified. Of course, people didn't want to get on a bus or in an Uber and be unprotected to go somewhere that, like, it was a nice to have. It wasn't a necessity. It wasn't like, you know, her cancer medication.

Right.

Yeah.

So, yeah. But anyway, we have gone deep in this. In this.

Oh, my goodness. Yes.

Anyway, if anyone has any other sayings that you find fascinating that got, you know, bastardized to be more manipulative, please send them to Lauren and me. I think this is our new. Our new side. Side quest that we're going to be digging into.

Yes, absolutely. All the butch. Bring all the butchered quotes. Yes.

Yeah. And I have to say, Lauren, I am so eternally grateful that you're in my covenant.

Oh, me too. For you. You know, so grateful we stumbled across each other and. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I mean, it's the beauty of the Internet. It is, it is.

We were LinkedIn friends first, and then I attended one of your. One of your Friday calls, and then here we are all these years later.

Yeah, yeah. And so many more years to come.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. And for everyone watching, I hope you start questioning all the things you're told.

And make friends on the Internet.

That too. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, make funny names on the Internet and comment on people's stuff to give them. Oh, that is. Actually, I'm gonna go back and clip that because I think that part was really funny.

The.

Huh? What is this?

It's.

And have you seen that clip of the Drew Barrymore show where she's like, I don't have my glasses. Oh, the Manatee Social Club. And it's like this matinee, and she's.

Like, oh, I have not seen that. That's funny.

Anyway, anything else to add, Lauren?

That's it for me. This has been awesome.

Yeah. So much fun. We've almost been going for an hour, so we'll let everyone go at this point. Anyway, thank you for joining us, everyone. I'm Katie McManus. Yes. And thank you for being with us. And we will be going live with you again very, very, very, very soon. Have a great day, everyone.

Bye.