Creating More with Less Makes Sense, But How? with Mike Rosenberg

Every company has breakdowns in their revenue process. Sure thing. Deals slip into next quarter, competitors creep in and swipe deals away at the last minute, and deals getting single threaded that don't get to power. These are just a few examples of revenue leak, but there are a ton more and they're preventing your team from reaching their sales targets. That's why I'm such a big fan of Clary's Revenue platform is the only tool that actually helps leaders take control of their revenue and thrive through any market conditions, especially when things get tough. You can't afford to miss a single detail, but you also can't be leading by gut. Clary combines the science and the art of sales and sales leadership. So go to clary.com if you want to answer the most important question in your business. Are you going to meet beat or Miss on revenue? Welcome to the live Better Sell Better podcast with your host Kevin Dorsey of Inside Sales Excellence, the number one Patreon group and YouTube channel for tech sellers and tech sales leaders, where we dive in deep for tactical advice on how to book more meetings, close more deals faster, and lead sales teams to success. But we don't stop there. We also focus on the person in salesperson. We talk about mindset goals, time management, and so much more. So thank you for listening and if you're interested, head on over to patreon.com InsideSalesExcellence now with that, grab a notepad, get ready, and let's dive into the good stuff. What up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the live Better Sell Better podcast. This is your host, Kevin Dorsey, AKA akd. And there is a buzzword buzz phrase going around all over SaaS right now. Do more with less. Less but better. And it gets everybody hyped up. It gets everyone excited. Everyone's like, yes, we have to do this, but no one's really talking about how to do more with less, but also how to do it before things get tight. If we look at what's happening in the SaaS industry and tech industry right now, now we're being forced to do more with less when we should have been thinking that way from the very beginning. That is why I'm so excited to have Mike Rosenberg on the show with me today. He's the VP of Sales over at rocketreach, a tool that I used for my own team at Patient Pop, and he wants to talk about this more with less mindset how you do it all the time, not just when things get hard. Because when things get hard, you don't get caught having to make massive cuts that maybe you didn't have to make before. So, really excited to go on this topic today. Mike, welcome to the show, man.

Thanks, Katie. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

And I love that this is the topic that's top of mind for you because before we jumped on to start recording, right. You kind of mentioned it's like, yes, things are tough now. Like, now people are being forced to do more with less. But the real mindset, this should always be the case. So talk about this a little bit in terms of a mindset of, like, how you approach scaling, adding that type of mindset.

I think it's looking at it from a really conservative approach. I learned it not even at this position, not the last one. Maybe it was one or two. Before that, I was at a company for about five years and kind of in startup mode, but it was already profitable. And the mindset from the founder, the CEO, was we always have to remain profitable. There was never the thought that we're going to give up and go into a negative EBITDA perspective and exchange it in turn in turn for growth. It was always, here's the budget for every team, make it work. So we look to grow. We still grew at a really nice clip. It still went up into the right. It was a much more conservative approach. And so what we always had to do was to take a look at who we had on the team. Did everyone make sense for what it was they were going to do and how much more they can each do? What I see, what I hear when I speak with people who have to go through layoffs, or in the opposite. I mean, take 12, 18 months ago, when people were adding on. It's such a high clip. It was, this was our number. This is what we know that everyone's quota should be because that's how we figured out how much to pay them. So we know this is the number to figure out. And no offense to anyone who had that approach, but I just think it's a little lazy of an approach to figure out how many people you need as opposed to look in the capacity of what everyone can do. So at this company that I was working at for a few years, we increased quotas every single year. And the salespeople loved it because it wasn't based off of fantasy. We actually, because we were doing so much better every quarter, we just looked at the last two quarters and we said, all right, everybody, if I give you X number of opportunities and you keep your close rate at Y, or maybe we have to improve 1 percentage point. If we keep your average deal size at Z or we increase it by a little bit, we improve a little bit. Do you think you can all do that? Well, yeah, if you give us the opportunities or if we can create them. Awesome. Let's go do that. So maybe we would add on people, we would add headcount, but much less than what you normally hear a lot of companies adding when they're looking to be in high growth. And we did it responsibly, and we were forced to, and it's something that I've kind of carried through regardless of the situation of the company, to make sure that you just grow more responsibly.

I love. There's so much we can unpack there. Because what's happening right now is there are a lot of companies that are chopping and raising quota with no baseline behind it. So go a little bit deeper on that, because I feel like anytime you mention the idea of raising quota, everyone goes up in arms. But you said when you explained it to your team, they're actually like, yeah, cool, let's go for it. Talk about that a little bit more, because I think people miss how you have to make it believable. You can't just bump it up and say, go get it. Sounds like you got granular with them. So talk about that a little bit.

Yeah, look, increasing quota sounds awesome to the board. It sounds really good for executives. You're looking at the final number before anyone even hits it. And then all of a sudden you turn around, you realize where everybody go. And it's because if you don't hit, you're not making money. Somebody else is promising you more. The grass is greener. I'm out. Even regardless of the economy, regardless of how it is, people are going. So when we take a look at it. Look, I'm a big fan of storytelling regardless of what it is. And we may get into it in terms of, like, how do you find these people? Right. And how do you go through interviews? For me, it's all about storytelling. Can you tell a story? And for me, I have to tell the best story and not fiction. It's got to be nonfiction to my team as far as how they're going to achieve it. And so you just create it in terms of numbers. And that's all that it happens to be. And if it's realistic, if it's believable, if they see it. Oh, really? Our close rate was 32%. I didn't even feel that. So could I get to 33%. Could I get a little bit better in what I do? Of course I can. All right, but if you show them your average, you know, your close rate's 32, but you're selling them on a product roadmap that hasn't been created yet or, or new pieces for marketing that are even out yet. And we need to get to 36%. That, that feels like a jump. And now all of a sudden you're getting into the world of fiction from a storytelling perspective. So if you can use your historicals and there can be bigger jumps, but you have to have something there. We're going to invest triple into marketing and we're not going to hire people. And that's how we're going to keep our start to throw around, you know, LTV to cac. But how do we keep our profitability? We're not going to have more people and throw tomorrow. Okay, maybe, maybe that is a little bit more balloo believable of what we can do. But if you can show everyone, paint the picture, tell them the story of how achievable it could be, you definitely can get more from the individuals. And they aren't as scared of it because it's like, oh, wait, I'm going to get paid more too. And that's all of a sudden where it can land them in a better spot. Maybe it's from base, but definitely from an override perspective.

Right. And it's funny, I just had this conversation with one of my new leaders that I just stepped into is like, you don't tell your team you have to sell your team. You can't just walk out there and tell them that it's blank or tell them you need to do why you have to sell it just like you would as a salesperson, connect it back to their goals, get ahead of their objections. Like, you have to sell it. Now, something you just said there at the end as you raised quotas, were you increasing variable with that as well generally, or was it quotas up comp. Same.

We always increased it and now it didn't have to be.

I'm going to pull you back. Could you say that one more time? Because people miss on this very slowly.

You always increase it. You have to from a sales perspective. And look, for me, it's an easy sell to the executives. And again, as long as I live in the EBITDA world that they want to live in, of a world of profitability, which don't get me wrong, I do too. I'm an equity stakeholder. I Get it. But if you're expecting someone to do more with the same, maybe even with less, there. There needs to be. And look, there's an unfortunate world right now where there are a lot of layoffs going on. And without getting into the reasons of why all of them have to be. And they are shrinking the teams, I don't necessarily assume each one of them are going to be getting a raise and therefore more with less, but in a world in which you want to grow what the numbers happen to be, and you want to grow year to year and you want to do it with the people that have done it for you, that you can trust more, you can be responsible with a bigger number, as opposed to hiring an unproven commodity of someone who is successful in another company, possibly in another world, I want to make sure that they are rewarded with that.

Yes. That is just a missing piece for so many companies and leaders is they raised the quota, they don't make it believable. And people are making the same or less where it's like, hey, y', all, you were at 150% last year, so we're gonna move the quota to that. So now if you hit that number, you're actually gonna be making less than you did the year before with it. And then they wonder why people strike out against that. And so something else that I wanna make sure people caught in this so far is that your focus, especially the team, has been about getting better, not just about doing more. Right. Going from 31 to 33%. That's about being better, not just doing more. Can you go a little bit deeper on that? Because I don't get to hear that often. People talk about doing more when it comes to capacity. And you're coming from the let's be better in terms of capacity.

Absolutely. It's looking at every piece of the sales process and seeing where you are. So it's all the leading indicators. It's really easy to go to the end and say, just get me more dollars. But it's like, how do we get there? Especially if maybe leads will be flat? So how do we improve it all the way from the beginning? How can your conversion rate from lead to SQL, how do you then get them to do more demos? How do you get those individuals to then go into the pipeline? And then you look at every single stage in the pipeline and if you take a step back, and sometimes it is a farce from the trees because you're looking at one number from a conversion or a win percentage, you have to Break it up into all the different pieces of the customer journey to see where they are. And if you can improve even one step of the customer journey and then it pulls out the other side, you may already be getting more from the same or more from less. And it's the same with average deal size. How do you do with those comparison? Look at some of your. Everyone's got the best salesperson that they have on their team. They always have the strugglers. And there's always the question why? If you can answer the why. But if you look at how do they get there? Do they just get more opportunities? Do they close more? Do they have a higher average deal size? You can usually pull out what it happens to be. When I work with the managers who report to me, and whenever they're working with someone who is either doing great or not doing great, and the question I always have them answer, whether it's asked or not, is why? And if you can't, then as a manager, you're not doing your job. If you can't tell the individual who's struggling why they are and how they improve, then you're not doing your job. And for someone who's doing great, it's the same thing. So if you can take that answer of why and put it into the sales process, then you're only going to get more. That comes out the other side every single year. The last part I'll say is just hold the other departments accountable. There's a lot of trust on the executive team, at least I hope there is. Into which I can go to marketing and say, I need this. We can close more. If I have more testimonials. Oh, wait, you need the people to get them. That's on me. I'll do that. That's my job product we're losing because of this. You need to do this for us. And we're going to increase our close rate. So, look, you live in sales like I have. It's all I've ever done my entire life. And everybody always says, if I give this to somebody, sales I they're going to turn it into the most beautiful sculpture. And it's not always true. So we need some of the other foundation to make sure that we're successful. But it's our job to speak up. We are always the squeaky wheel, going to everybody else and telling them what we want. And that's just the way that we're all going to get better.

And I hope you all are catching it too, as he's tying it back To a number still. He's going to marketing saying we could close more deals, AKA our close rate would come up if we had these testimonials. Hey, product, we would close more deals if we had this free feature. Because our closed loss are showing 20% of them are losing because they don't have a dashboard. Whatever. You can connect these requests back. Too often, sales, they're just making demands to make demands.

Right.

We want more leads, we need more case studies, and it's not attached to anything. And then we wonder why people stop listening to us. You know, the theme that I had at my last org towards the end was less but better. I wanted less reps, but better reps. I wanted less opportunities, but better, better opportunities. Right. So that capacity planning was a little bit stronger to do, which I actually want to bring it back to, because this was also foundational of what you were talking about. How do you, you know, how do you figure out that capacity? Or how do you kind of think, like, well, what is someone capable of? Because I think a lot of leaders, they just always assume people can do more. And so this, again, this whole, like, you know, more with less right now, they're just asking people to do more now, like, all right, like, yep, your quota went up. You have to do more and literally do more with less. How do you go about figuring out that capacity of like, okay, when do I need to hire another one versus this person is at their limit.

Yeah. So I break it down to the smallest part, and I'll use the example of an account executive just because it's probably the easiest way to look at it. And I'll do it in a software world because again, it's probably most relatable. But so software account executives do demos. They get opportunities and they do demos. As the first part, what I look at is within account executive, what's every step in the sales process they do and how long does it take them? How much time does it take them in a day? And if that's the sum of, I mean, you say that's the parts and then you create the sum. And then it's not just the time to close in terms of the number of days, but the amount of time that you need to close. You know, you're in legal review. Well, account executive, you're not doing anything about that. You know, you're pushing it to somebody else, and then that comes back over the fence. So the amount of days that it might be in a sales stage of legal review has nothing to do with how much Time it takes you to work on that opportunity. So for us, I look at two parts. One is the amount of time, literal time that it may take you to win an average deal, knowing some are going to be longer, some are shorter, and how many new opportunities you can take in a month while still being able to focus on the pipeline that you already have. So this is a little bit more for an exercise, not necessarily of a startup in the first six. Six months is probably not an exercise for a sales rep who has only been there for three to six months. It's looking at someone who's more tenured, who has a full pipeline, and for someone who is taking opportunities and they know relatively what they're talking about. And it. It is also one of those things where all the time people like, man, I am maxed out at X number. And then it's like, really, if I added just one more. It's kind of like the old saying of where, you know, killing the frog in the saucepan by turning up the heat only a little bit each time, like, and they don't know what it is, then that's where you want to do it. So, look, can you take one more opportunity? Let's test it out. And sometimes you can a b test it. And if you have a really smart router, you can do that by saying, max this person out at this and max this other person out at something else. And then you can see what that happens to be. And if you take whatever the current max happens to be and again, put it through the numbers process, average, close rate, average deal size, see what pops out the other end, and if that hits quota, then we're golden. If it's even more than quota, it's even better. Because now what? You know, what your numbers are going to look like for next year and why it's even more golden for me as head of sales is, you know, my budget honestly is not the sum of the. The quotas, right? We have an 80% coverage margin. So if I can make every sales rep happy and hit their numbers, well, guess what, We're Superman. Because now we've overachieved on the numbers that are expected to be hit, not just what the budget numbers are.

Well, this is. I love this stuff, dude. This is so good. Like, I nerd out on this because it's just not how a lot of people think and approach the process. You mentioned it maybe before recording, they're like, all right, well, run one AE gets me 60K. So if I need 600,000, I'm going to go get 10 of them and they're not thinking about well how could I go get 4 to 60,000, right. Versus or just 600,000 versus going and getting those 10. Now one thing that I think is so key that a lot of leaders miss is, you know, you were talking about that time capacity, like not know how long it takes to close a deal, but how long does it take to close a deal? How do you find that out? Like, how do you get a gauge of that? Because I've had managers, you know, I say, well hold on, like how long does this take? They go talk to the rep and come back and they say, yeah, it takes them like two hours to close out an opportunity. And I go like, are you sure about that? So like how do you find out kind of how long some of these things take?

Yeah, I mean for me it's, it's stepping out of the fortress of solitude and sitting in on deals and walking through it step by step. I've learned the hard way when you try to sit in your office and run the numbers and run it that way you lose touch with a hundred different things. And I did learn that the hard way. And so no matter where I am, whether it's a startup or it's somewhere that's already doing well and humming, you have to go all the way back to the basics. You have to learn the demo yourself. So have someone walk you through it and see how long it takes you to do the demo and then when the demo's done, what do you typically owe to them? So for where I am now, it was a little bit easier because it was brand new that we didn't have sales stages. In Salesforce there was no such thing as a buyer's journey. But once you understand what that is, what a buyer typically goes through between small business, mid market or enterprise, then it's a little easier to figure out what it happens to be. Then it's working with people that are going to be able to work within that. I typically find sales reps who claim that they're working however many hours a day they are, but still not achieving the results of where they want to get to. From a time perspective, it's not the fact that we're asking them to do too much, it's that they're being distracted with other things, whether it's their fault or not. Too many non sales activities that they're just being asked to do. Maybe we don't have all the resources we do because we're a startup or we had to let a whole bunch of go from the other teams that help support us from a support perspective. So you always have to take a look at it, understand it from all sides. But for me, it's just getting in elbows deep.

Yeah, I love that. What I always preach to my managers was, I don't want you to be micromanagers, but I need you to be micro aware. Like, you need to have a really thorough understanding of how long things take, how many clicks is it. What prevents someone. I'll never forget, we had an off site, this is a few years ago, where it was like activity had been dipping across the team. You know, we're having offside, like, what's causing this? And all the answers were coming. And eventually I had to turn around to the whiteboard. I put lop, you know, or like, you know, LPA on the board. And it's for low process awareness. We don't know, like, we don't actually know how long these things take. And that was their assignment the next week. First to your point, they did it, said, I want you to go find 20 leads each and I want you to time yourself doing it. And then I want you to sit with two reps and I want you to time how long it takes. And magically, it's weird. And I don't know if you've experienced this. Like when you sit with a rep and time things, what do you notice happens with that time?

A little bit, Mike. Oh, it goes by much faster and well, in terms of, like, they get more done.

Right. Weird, weird, weird how that always happens. I'm like, wow, I'm getting so lucky with leads today.

Hmm.

Got it. Yeah. So lucky.

I got it. Yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting you say micromanage. I always go to people and like, do you want to be micromanaging? Like, absolutely not. I said, let me ask you a different question. If I tell you exactly what activities you need to do to yield whatever numbers it is that you want to achieve, and guess what, you're making as much or more money than what you signed up to do, would you go do it? Like, yeah, like it's kind of micromanagement. I go, so just, you know, watch the pieces of micromanagement that you might actually want. So, no, they just don't want us sitting next to them all the time telling them what numbers to press on the, on the phone or the keyboard to do what it is they need to do. But if you can paint the activities that they need to do, to be successful, whether it's 20 more or what have you, they'll do it. Because of course, like that. That's why we're supposed to be in the role we are. And they are in their role.

It's good. You've clearly been either sitting in my onboarding, I've been sitting in yours. Because the exact almost word for word, dude, I asked like, who here wants to be micromanage? Like, no hands go up. I say, who here would like an ABCDEFG blueprint to success? All the hands go up. I was like, who wants to be micromanaged? Who wants the blueprint of success? All hands. Like, do y' all see the problem here? If I have a blueprint to success, isn't it actually my job to do everything I can to make sure that we're following it, to go through it and all those things? So, like, say that that's amazing, dude. I love it.

Yeah. That's why it's like, we need to have all the questions and none of the answers when it comes to it. And that's where, like, of how much time it might take them to do whatever. It's the simplest thing for us to think that everything's perfect. Like, the demo's perfect, Right? The demo does it all the times. When's the last time you looked at the demo? I don't know. How many clicks is your demo? Oh, it's 36. 36. When I started and I created the demo, it was 21. How'd it get to 36? You know, so it's always one of those things where we always think it's a set it and forget it and then you go back to it. So if we do ask for everyone to be really good with their time, well, we need to put the same amount into it to make sure that we're giving them all the right answers and the right resources.

Yeah, no, I really like that. And where I actually first learned that idea of, like, time capacity was Jason Jordan's book, Right? Cracking the sales management code. Like, he talked about it in there of like, people talk about headcount planning all the time capacity planning, but no one's paying attention to the time it takes. And so all these companies right now that have chopped people, raised quotas, you can guarantee, have not done the time capacity work to go. Okay. Do they have the time to hit these quotas? Like the whole. The full cycle AE thing? That's happening again now. Right now. AE's got to go prospect. Okay, but do you know how long it takes to set a meeting because, oh, wait, you want your AES to do 10 meetings a month when your own SDRs weren't hitting 10 meetings a month full time, how much time will that take? And so I want to pivot this just a little bit because you said something really cool before we started recording on how there's a lot of people in your org now and other companies that you've worked with that are in roles now that aren't the roles you hired them for, which I think is a really, really cool thing to be able to do. And so I wanted to just touch on this a little bit before we wrapped of, like, you know, how, I guess, how have you done that? You know, you hired someone for sales, but then you get them into marketing or you hired someone in operations and somehow they become a SDR manager. Like, how are you kind of spotting where to move those chess pieces once they've been on your board for a bit?

Yeah, for me, I think first it's the mindset of this is actually exactly how we're going to grow. I tell everyone who works for me, if you're successful, I'm going to trust you way more with whatever the next role is, even though you haven't done it before, versus someone who has or is doing it successfully at another organization. Because of all the intangibles, which are most of the reasons why people aren't successful, it's almost impossible to get that during the interview process. You know who are the toughest people to interview? People in sales and people in human resources. Why? Because you should know how to be able to sell yourself. You should be able to know how to interview. So if you can fool someone and anybody can fool anyone, but from the inside, you can't. So first, it's a mindset. And I tell people, and a lot of people do want to come work at organizations where I am. I would love to think it's because of me. I know it's not. It's because they know what the next step is going to be. And I used to say, oh, this generation. But now I'm too old and I've been to too many generations. It's everybody. It's, this is the job I'm interviewing for. But what's the next one, by the way? What's my next stop? And when others outside or inside the organization see that this is reality, this isn't just lip service like sdr. For six months now, I'm closing deals. Cool. Like, I'm doing small business For a year and I'm really good. Now I'm be able to do mid market. That's. This is awesome. Like I've never been a manager before. Now I'm a first time manager managing four to six people. This is great. So first is the mindset to do it. The next is how do you get someone in that that can or has the aptitude for. Sometimes it's skill, other times they'll tell you with luck. Like especially for the people that come in through sales. And I tell them as your leader, it's my job to get you the next level. If that's within these walls, great. That's why I'm doing this. If it's outside of these walls, that's still my job. And outside the walls are also different departments within the company. So I've had salespeople move to product. I have one person on my team right now loves product. She likes doing sales, she likes being account manager, but loves products. So guess what? I want to make sure that she can get the best of both. And if she finds out that her infatuation with products wants to turn into marriage, then that's my job to make sure that she can cross that line and to get in there. But from a purposeful perspective. I usually do it during the interview process and again I go back to the stories and I go back to storytelling and I ask them a lot of personal pieces of what is it you like to do outside of here? What really gets you excited about life? And asking a ton of questions for them just to tell me stories. And they may think what does this have anything to do with the job I'm interviewing for? And partly it is, look, you're going to get customers or prospects that are going to ask you questions that you're not prepared to answer and you don't know. And I'm not going to want you to make up anything on the spot of what it can or can't do from a product perspective. But you will have to dance with them a little bit and speak back and forth and be able to do it without just saying I'll get back to you. So part of it is preparedness for that. The other is just understanding what they think they may want to do within their career. I've hired a lot of people out of college and they think they know because this is what I prepared for, but they don't. So I want to make sure that there always happen to be fallback in terms of what they like, what they might want to do. To be able to push them in the right direction.

I love that. What I love about it too is one, just the intention behind your questions. Like, intention is my favorite word. And like, so there's an intention behind why he's asking those questions in the interview and what he's listening for and not just asking random questions to see what people do, like, come up with. But how do you. And this might just be, you know, you're picking the right types of companies and picking the right types of leaders. But, like, how do you create those pathways? Because I think a lot of leaders, they get into a role and they have someone like, oh, she's not a good fit. And they don't even think to put them somewhere else. She's like, oh, this isn't the right fit for you. Because some of those pathways haven't been created yet. And it sounds like you've done a good job of kind of creating some of those paths for people. How do you navigate that internally at your company?

Some of it is just creating the ladders from the beginning to know with having dotted lines for the touchdown area. Because what you don't want to do is to paint yourself in the corner by saying, if you do these things within this period of time, you're going to be promoted. Because if there's not a role, there's nowhere to put you. But I want to make sure that people are prepared for once they get there. So we do like given periods of time as a minimum. So that way as well, if you're not, you know, if you're a successful rep within your first seven months, that's awesome. But you'll at least have the patience to know that you're probably not going to be applicable for the role until 12 months. That's not saying I won't dip in early at all. It more gives management the flexibility as opposed to the impatience of the rep saying, I've hit my time now what? I've interviewed a ton of people from sales development world who are pitched that if I do this for six months, I'm going to get promoted. And all they want to do is to get into closing. And so I want to make sure I'm not the next person that's also promising them everything. Then all of a sudden they're with us another two years and it happens. So having ladders clearly marketed of what a person needs to do and how long from a minimum they should be there is one aspect of it. The other is just seeing how well that they do if they're not great from a performance perspective consistently, but they have all the other intangibles and it's someone who you really want around. They are still really good with customers. You know, we had someone recently, it's not like he failed. We just realized account executive new business wasn't really his wheelhouse. But he was awesome with the customers and loved servicing them. And from an account executive we're like, it's not your role. Like, I love that you love the customers, but let an account manager love him just as much. And now he's an account manager and flourishing and doing a great job with it. So I think the other thing for sales leaders is just the patience of working with individuals and understanding. If you have someone who's really good but they're not in the right spot, don't cut bait and just look for the next prototypical person that's going to fit that role. Where else would they be valuable within the organization, inside and outside of sales to be able to reappropriate them as opposed to just starting over?

And for everyone listening, there was a very, very important dual sided lesson there. There's the lesson for leaders to look for these things, right? Where else can you put people? What are you noticing, right? What seems to light them up? But the other to all the ICs listening, did you catch what he said? I want you to say this back. How does someone earn the right for you to look for other positions for them? Because I think this is important as well.

Don't be an asshole. Be a good person within the organization that individuals want to be around. But make sure that you're helpful in all aspects. Because again, if you're not as successful in your individual role, but the sales team or the company as a whole sees you as a benefit and a positive contributor within the organization, they should or hopefully could be able to find a role for you.

I just wanted to call that out because y' all like, especially if you're coming out of college, you don't know what you want to do yet. You think you know what you want to do, but if you go in and you go in with a negative mindset or you don't build up the people around you or you're not easy to work with, you're not going to be considered for other opportunities. Whereas if you go in and you put your best foot forward and you work hard and you are positive, even if the role is not right, a good leader will find a spot for you. Versus and like, you know, people have asked why did they get the opportunity? Well, because they first of all asked for it to put in the work every single day. They live our virtues and values. They go above and beyond for themselves and for others. And it wasn't the right role, but they're the right type of person. I just thought it was important to call out for everybody. And so as we wrap up here, I mean, I'm loving this. I'm just like, ah, this is the stuff right here. The name of this podcast was Live Better Sell Better because I have this weird idea that if we lived better, if we had more energy, more fulfillment, more joy, more happiness in life, that the results would also improve. What would your live better advice be for people listening?

Because I'm kind of that way too. I warned my wife a while ago, you'll know how I am at home of how work is because I live there first. And that was just my mentality as far as it. And then you have kids and you're like, all right, nevermind, there's other things that happen to be out there. You know, mine might be a little bit corny because I've never been the book reader. I'll be honest, I've never been the one that, you know, tells you, here's the next book to read. I've read, I've read maybe 10 to 12 books in total of what it is. But the piece for me is to never think that you know everything about everything, especially when it comes to the sales side. As soon as you do, you're done, you're dead and someone's going to just pass you and lap you. So for me, even in downtime, it happens to be is to following individuals like yourself going over LinkedIn and you know, sometimes the lovey dovey stuff on LinkedIn and the soft stuff like that's cool to read. But I do love looking at people who have done it before and making sure that, you know, see what made them successful and living through that. So giving people from Pavilion from a professional networking perspective and seeing what they say like that just helps me out with both things at home, but as well as within the workplace place.

No, and I love that, right? Because that's what I always tell people is experience is the slowest way to learn something. Learning from people with experience really speeds that up. And that's what similarly like, you know, places like Pavilions, reaching out to people, right? Mentors, all of that. But even just peers, I mean, you know this, you're in the game. Sales leadership can be pretty lonely. Like spotlights on you, right? And there's not someone to your left or to your right that you can necessarily talk to and like learning from other people. I think it's such a hack that people don't leverage. And whether that is through books or courses or videos or LinkedIn or just good old fashioned conversations. Hey, you're a VP. I'm a VP. Let's talk about VP shit for a little bit. Let's see if we can't learn. Like, that's funny enough, I feel like has been lost a lot of ways across the social networking where it's like, you see people, but people don't really get to know each other as much anymore. Like, I think today is a perfect example, right? Like we knew of each other, we've communicated before. But like this today, like I got to learn so much about how you think and how you operate. It's just amazing. It's a different way to connect. So this was phenomenal, dude. Like, really, really well done. Really good stuff here. Where can people get more? Like, where are you putting out content? How can they get in touch? Where can they learn more about what you're doing? Because this was solid, man.

Yeah, no, I appreciate it. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm on LinkedIn as much as possible. I try not to come up with fake stuff just to make, you know, headlines. I don't pay anybody to write my stuff, so I, I put stuff out there. Like, if anybody who has ever read anything, like, knows what my son does and is like the junior salesperson growing up, but without any shameless plugs. Like, that's probably the easiest way to find me. And I know there's a few Michael Rosenbergs, but yes, I meant Rocket Reach. So you definitely be able to find me there.

There we go. Well, definitely find him on LinkedIn. Follow him. Definitely check out Rocket Reach on LinkedIn. Follow them as well. Mike, my man, this was phenomenal, dude. Thank you so much for your time and your insights today.

This was fun. Talk to you again soon.