Discovery Deep Dive with Charles Muhlbauer

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Thank you very much, Kevin. Very cool to be here. Very cool.

That should be good, man. Discovery is everything and I harp on it a lot. And so when you Reached out and said, yo, I only want to talk discovery. I'm like, yes, this is going to be good. And so what people love about this show, man, we get right into it. We get into the tactics. None of the backstories are the fluff. So let's start with this, man. Why is discovery the foundation of everything in the sales process?

It's an awesome question and there are many different perspectives to answer that question. But from my perspective, it's everything. Because discovery gives you, the ae, a chance to give the prospect the ability to think. That's why discovery is everything, because you're allowing the prospect to think, to think about how they're doing things today. To think about an insight that you found that might surprise them. To think about whether that insight is something that they've talked about internally before. To think about whether even if they've talked about it internally before, to what extent have they tried to do anything about it? And if they haven't, why not? Is it because they haven't had the time or is it just really not that important and maybe we should stop talking. It gives the prospect a chance to think about what they've done and what they want to do. And that's why I love it so much, man.

I think that's gold. Actually, it's a quick call out here too that I want to ask you, because a lot of sales reps get this wrong. What's the difference between discovery and qualification? Because a lot of reps, when they're doing discovery, all they're doing is qualification. How many employees do you have? What software do you use? Who's a part of the decision making process? They're not doing anything that causes people to think. So what's the difference between qualification and discovery? Like, call this out for me real quick.

Can I use, I use an example to help answer that. It's kind of like when you're interviewing for a job, let's say I'm interviewing to work for you, Kevin, and you say, Charles, when you were at XYZ company or you were when you were at CB Insights or what have you, what kind of deals did you sell? What was the average deal size? How many team, how many people were on your team? What was your day like? Those are qualification type questions. You want to know a little bit about what I do and what that looks like and whether or not I'm even fit to talk more. Right? That's what selling is all about. Just, is there a reason to talk more? Is there a reason to talk more? Is there a reason to talk more? That's qualification questions on an interview. Discovery questions on an interview would be disqualifying me. Why are you looking for a job here? Why should I hire you? What's something that I should be concerned about? If you know what's one thing that I haven't asked you that's not on your resume that I should ask you? So I guess that's an example I like to use. So I would say discovery is more disqualification, like pushing you away while a little bit. While qualification is first getting an understanding as to whether or not you're even a fit to have that type of discussion. So that's how I would describe it. For a lot of people. Qualification is a very light form of discovery, but I do not consider qualification discovery. That's how I would explain it.

I'm with you there. And I think.

I'm not sure if that's clear. Is that like, somewhat clear?

Yeah, I think it's clear. Because when I asked you before, like, why is discovery the foundation of everything? A word that you use that no one ever really uses is, like you said, you give them the opportunity to think. Qualification questions don't make them think.

Right, that's right.

So even if even.

That's another good definition.

If we stopped at all right now and said the difference between discovery and qualification questions is one makes them think, one does not, people would already be better. Right.

I love how you just. Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Sorry.

So let's roll with this here. Right? So, okay, we're getting people to think. So when we get into Discovery, what are you coaching, your reps or telling reps? What do you want the prospect to be thinking about through Discovery?

The first thing I want the prospect to be thinking about. Problems. However you want to. If you want to call them problems, challenges, concerns, fears. Because they may not have a problem. They may not tell you or feel that they have a problem now, but they might be very concerned that they would have. That they could be having a problem soon for whatever reason. So I want them to think about problems. There is a specific formula that I coach my team to begin to execute that problem question. That's what I want them to be thinking about. And I joke around with my teammates because as much as people like to talk about how good things are, for some reason people like talking more about how things suck. I think our brains are wired to be negative, which is terrible, which is why we all have fear of failure and all that stuff. But they like talking about what they're afraid of, you know, loss, aversion, all that stuff. So that's what I like them to think about first.

And so, you know, this is, this is fun because I go on discovery all day long, right? So now, because it's true, by the way, first of all, you said something very subtle there. We actually are more wired to talk about and to receive negative information is what kept us alive as a species. Ooh, the red berry tastes good. Isn't nearly as important information as the red berry will kill you. And so we actually are, we are attuned to that negative information. But here's what's interesting. You know, if someone's a real friend of yours based on the negatives they share with you, if you have someone who only tells you the good things going on in their life, they're probably not that good of a friend because they don't trust you enough to share the bad things. So in order for someone to share their problems, you have to have trust. So how do you set up the discovery questions or the process to start building some of that trust where someone feels comfortable sharing those problems? Because the old school classic, right? So Charles, what keeps you up at night?

Right.

Like, I mean that would get me thinking about my problems. But I don't know you, so I'm not willing to go there yet.

Yeah.

How do you set up kind of that process or start to establish a little bit of trust so someone's willing to share those problems?

A very good question. The short answer to that is to teach them something first, which is problem related. So I'm a big fan of roadmaps. I love roadmaps. Roadmaps to ask a question. Roadmaps to answer a question followed by asking another question. It's. So the mini roadmap is one, from my perspective, one, sharing context, two, sharing insight. Three, humbling disclaimer and four, asking an open ended question to what extent? So that looks like something like this. Sharing context. Hey, Kevin, as you can imagine, just to give you some context about my role in I speak to probably two or three XYZ teams here a day. That's my context. I'm subtly giving you an understanding as to what I'm doing. Two or three private equity firms, venture capital firms, pretty much every day. And number two, which is sharing insight. They share a lot of different things with me about what they're concerned about, what they're hoping to accomplish. It ranges anywhere from 1, 2, 3 and 4 and it lists other problems. They're concerned about this, they're worried about this, they have problems with that or they're really looking to be better at this. Okay, so that's step two. Step three. Humbling disclaimer. I don't really know exactly how to ask this question or whatever your humbling disclaimer is. And then four. But I'm curious to what extent hence the open ended question using my favorite three words, to what extent? To what extent do any of those resonate at all with you? And if not, what would you say does that I might have missed? So that's the mini roadmap and that subtly does a lot of different things. Tells you where I sit, what I hear, I know what I'm talking about. Maybe none of that resonates with you and that's cool. And leaving it open ended at the end because I'm getting you to think so. That's a way I teach my reps to do that.

I love that it is damn near to the letter how I teach my reps. Oh cool. Like almost to the letter. Comically. You could actually go back and maybe listen to some podcasts I've done other places people talk discovery. Hey, I talk to XYZ all day long, right? A lot of them seem to be really struggling with blank, blank and blank and then insert insight which is causing. I don't know if that sounds like your world or not. Like which one of those are you struggling with right now? Or do you got it all figured out already?

There you go.

Right? So that's. That's beautiful man. That was almost to. To the letter there, which was really, really good. Now here, here. I think this is gonna be good though. So. And also to Oren Clough talks about this in his book Flip the Script. He says it's a status alignment question and that's what helps build trust very quickly when you ask me a question that only someone who understands my world could ask. So everyone listening when you're asking what keeps you up at night? What are your goals? Where you focus going into 2021, those are so broad and so they're too open ended that it makes me think you don't know my world at all. Versus Yo KD talking to a lot of VPs right now. A lot of them are talking about how the connect rates have been cut in half since everyone's moved from home and there's no longer an office to call to which is making it twice as hard to book more meetings and pipeline is shrinking. Like is that something you're seeing with your team or do you guys Find a way around this. Now I know you know my world now. Okay? Now we have that trust and we can talk about problems. So where do we go from there? Right? So someone says, yeah, Charles, like, yeah, we're struggling with our connect rates right now, too. A lot of reps take that as a sign to. Time to pitch, baby. All right, all right, I got a problem. Where do you go from there? Right? So they agree to one of those problems. Or they say, like, yeah, like, we are struggling with that. How do we keep Discovery going?

An awesome question. Well, there are a lot of different ways to go from there, but the main teaching point here is to keep the thread if they. There are four triggers I teach here at CP Insights, triggers that if the prospect does this, it's a trigger for you to stay. Okay. So if they bought into a problem, they say, well, actually, yeah, this resonates. That's a trigger. Trigger for me to stay there. Oh, that's so interesting. There are a lot of different ways to stay there. One way is, would it be okay, Kevin, if I asked you a couple questions about that? Sure. Oh, that problem is something that resonates. Interesting. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Or was there a time that that problem happened and in the past six to 12 months? Or would you say that's like, that's never happened to you before? How do you guys think about it? I like also asking, how do you think about it? How do you think about X? How do you think about Y? How do you think about Z? I just want them to think and to sell themselves. So a lot of different ways to stay there. I just mentioned a couple of different ways. That's some of the ways that you want to just stay there. And basically it's a mindset. And the mindset is I want to completely, as an ae, I want to completely forget about myself totally. And I just want to stay in curiosity land. And people have trouble being curious. I tell them, try to act as if the person that is telling you something is telling you something that's one of the most interesting things you've ever heard in your life. And stay there. And it only helps.

So it's funny you mentioned the threading, I think is how you call it. I'm trying to remember what term I use. I'm totally blanking on it right now. But it's like keeping your questions consistent. Right. On a theme. Because when you ask people questions that are inconsistent, it makes them uncomfortable, even though they don't know.

Interesting.

And this Is also even learning lessons. I look back to my younger days, even how guys, how we'll try to talk to a girl at the bar. Where are you from? Where you go to school? What are your hobbies?

Who do you know?

The questions are inconsistent. There is no theme to them. And it makes people uncomfortable because we as human beings love to anticipate. And if the questions jump around, we cannot anticipate what's going to come next. So it makes us uncomfortable. Whereas, where did you go to school? Blank. Oh, what's the weather like there? What did you do in the winter? Like, you keep it on a path. It makes people easier to talk to you. So I hope people caught that from you. Of like, you can't just go, okay, I'm hearing this problem. Tell me about it. They go, yeah, we are starting with that problem. And then you switch to. And how many employees do you have? And who is involved? You have to. So I love that you brought up threading because it's very important to keep that conversation going and it makes it feel like a conversation and not an interrogation. Which is the next thing I wanted to ask on right. Is like, how do you make discovery feel like a conversation? Because it can, as a buyer, feel like, oh, my God, like, let me just check these 20 questions off for you already. Like, how do you keep it feeling like a conversation versus just checking questions off a list?

You just said it. You can have the best discovery questions on planet Earth. But if your discovery questions are not based off of what the prospect literally just told you, it will be an interrogation based on what they just told you. Of course you're going to run out of things to ask on a certain topic. But they said something. Oh, that's interesting. I'm going to ask something else about that now. If they said something that's not relevant to me, okay, I'll move on. If they say something that's a trigger, my question is going to be based on what you just told me. And that's the best kind of discovery.

I like that. I like that. And so something you'd mentioned to me when we were like, kind of talking in prep is you had this line said, I'd rather be accurate than optimistic. I'd rather be accurate than optimistic. Talk to me a little bit about, like, what that means and what you're trying to get the reps or the prospect to understand when you say something like that.

Yeah. Now, I admittedly, I haven't read crazy amount of sales books. I'm very picky about the sales books that I read, I have to be heavily, you know, convinced to read a sales book. My favorite sales book to this day, and it's probably the second sales book I ever read, is Question Based Selling.

Yes.

I just love that book for so many reasons. The discovery part of that book is out of this world. And that's where I learned. It's where I learned discovery, no question about it. He talks about how he specifically if you could probably use it in other stages as well. But he specifically talks about it in a stage where you sent out an agreement and it was supposed to come back for some reason it hasn't come back or whatever. I'm sure it can be applied in other situations. And at that point you just want the prospect to help you. So what you do is you say no. Hey, Kevin. And by the way, I did post this on LinkedIn a while back and I can't tell you, there were a number of AES that have reached out to me and said, charles, this has literally helped me or gotten me to close this deal. When I haven't heard from the prospect in a while and it's such a great feeling in the email or even on the phone is hey Kevin, wondering maybe if you can help me out here for a second. I'm having meeting with my CFO tomorrow, next week, whatever. Or my VP of sales. He or she was expecting the agreement to come in last week. I'd rather be more accurate than optimistic here. What do you recommend I can tell my CFO or VP of sales in terms of what to do next. So the I'd rather be more accurate than optimistic is indirectly communicating to you like I'm cool with the truth and I'm not pushing anything here. I'd rather be more accurate than optimistic. It's totally okay. And that takes pressure off of the prospect. It's almost like a mini version of it's okay to tell me no. And this is something I learned, or I should say was re emphasized from Sandler. We took a Sandler training away while ago. One of the coolest things that we learned so simple is the main reason why a prospect will ghost you is because they are afraid to tell you no. So I love always telling the prospect. I'd rather be more accurate, not accurate than optimistic here. It's okay to tell me no, don't worry about it. I'll say that all day. That's a mini version of it's okay to tell me no. And then they most of the time. I've never experienced Anybody that hasn't responded to that in my sales career, they will respond and tell you how they want to help you. So that's what that's about.

I love it. One of my former top reps, David Karch. Salty old dog, you. I hope you hear this. I love dk. His thing was always, I love yeses. I'm okay with no's, but I hate maybes. Can we at least agree to not get into the chase, to not have to play the back and forth here? You can tell me no or you can tell me yes, but it's that chase in the maybe that I don't like. Could we at least agree to that? And I always love that. I love that line because the way he delivered it was so natural. And he said it on every single demo. It was always the funniest things. Like the floor could hear it. Right. And people like, oh, there's dk. He's dropping his line. Like, here we go. And so, you know, kind of getting that. And it's. And it's the agreement part of it. Right? Of like trying to get that up front. Now let's talk upfront contracts, because I have some thoughts on upfront contracts. I think a lot of people get these wrong. What are your thoughts on an upfront contract and like, how you teach your people to go through it?

Do you mind if I tell you to tell me what you think people get wrong?

I don't know. Now you're trying to. Yes, I'm more than happy to. I don't mind.

I really am curious. Yeah.

Yes. So when it comes to upfront contracts, I feel like people ask for too much before they've given a reason to do so. Right. And so a very standard upfront contract that people tend to ask is. So at the end of this, if we agree that this, like, helps, is this something that you would move forward with today? Is this something that you would be willing to. They ask for agreement to purchase wild before you've provided any value whatsoever. And I hate. I hate those types of upfront contracts. Like, if we can come to agreement on pricing and value today, is this something you could move forward with? Is this something you'd feel comfortable bringing to your cfo? And people ask for basically a commitment to buy before they've done anything. So the prospect. So that's one area that's have a massive problem, is they ask for too much before giving. So that's. That's where I think most people go wrong with upfront contracts.

So interesting. So we part of me. We split up the upfront contract into three questions. Actually, the first one is very easy. Let's say you have some light conversation, how you doing, blah, blah, blah. Okay. Maybe some. Some mini rapport building or what have you. Cool. Kevin. So glad we could connect. Had us down for a half hour. Just wanted to make sure that you had a hard stop at this time. Is that right? Yep. Done. Out of the way. Cool. So the second part can be done in a different number of different ways. Second part is cool, Kevin. So the purpose of this call is to determine whether or not we are fit to potentially work together in the future. And even if we can help you, not everybody is a fit for what we do and vice versa. Naturally, you'll have a lot of questions about what we do, which I'm happy to answer. And of course, I'm probably going to have a number of questions for you, some of which may be direct as well, to ensure whether or not we're fit. Would that be okay?

Sure.

Yeah. That's fine. Cool. That's. That's step two, step three. And then, Kevin, at the risk of stating the obvious here, there are really kind of one, one of two outcomes from this conversation. Either one, you say, charles, this conversation was garbage, totally useless. Not interested in. Thanks, but no thanks. Or it's compelling enough to talk further and see whether or not there could be something here. So those are really one of the two outcomes in this conversation. Does that work for you also? Yeah. Cool. That's my upfront contract. I liked what you said with dk did there also. So you could probably add that again or make it part of the one or two outcomes. But that is the upfront contract that we have here. I'm just going to add one more thing. What we like to do is take the last part of that upfront contract, the two outcomes, and bring it back at the end. And there's like five minutes left. Cool. So, Kevin, I know I mentioned at the beginning of the call I wanted two outcomes here. One, this is useless or to. This is compelling enough or could make sense to speak further, I guess, where you feel like you're at. So that's how we bring it back.

No, I'm a fan of that format because, like, I'm a big believer in like permission based selling. Right. It's like, hey, I want to be able to ask you a few questions to make sure we're not wasting your time. Would that be okay with you? Yes. Now you're getting that permission to ask those questions. Then that next part of, like. Because at the end of the day, I need to find out if there's even a problem worth solving, solving here. If y' all got it all figured out, got nothing to talk about. And I'll be the first person to tell you, right? But if we do, we can keep this conversation going. If we do, then we can get into pricing. And that's one of the things I like to really do, is tell people that getting into pricing is dependent upon how discovery goes. Getting into the demo is dependent upon discovery goes. Because if you don't address the fact of what they're probably thinking, right. And anyone who has a significant other, you know what I'm about to. What I. What I mean when I say this. Like, if you're arguing with someone, are you really listening to them? What are you thinking about? You're thinking about what you're going to say next. If someone comes into discovery, more often than not, the core questions they have in their head are, what does the product do? And how much does it cost? If you don't let them know that you're going to cover those things, it just stays up in their head the whole time. But then, two, when you make it contingent upon how discovery goes, they tend to be more forthcoming. Right. We're going to ask these questions. Cool. Why? To see if it's even worth showing you the product. If it is, there's a problem there.

Cool.

If there's nothing, we don't even have to show it to you. We don't have to get into these things to go through it. So I like the way you're setting it up there. And then dk, his upfront contract to me was always at the end, like, hey, we think this makes sense to then take these next steps, right? Yes. That's when he'd get into his yes no's and maybes and chase of like.

All right, let's get this on. I see. Interesting.

Let's get this on the books.

Cool.

But now, hey, yes, no, maybe let's avoid the chase and go through it. So now I like the way that you set it up with permission, give them the ideal outcomes up front and then start to work through it. But it's very different than how most people are doing upfront contracts right now. And when a sales rep does it to me on like a demo, like.

I'm like, no, really, it's funny. It really sets the stage big time. Like, big time. It makes, I think AES don't realize how, how powerful an awesome Upfront contract is it really sets the stage for the call where the prospect hears you do it and the prospect says, wow, yeah, that's cool. I heard a prospect say on a call to one of my AES, on a recorded call that we were, that I was coaching them on. The prospect said after the two outcomes, he said, yeah, no, that's cool. By the way, you should know, I really appreciate you saying that because most people that I speak to don't even ask me if it's okay to say no. He literally said that and it was really, really powerful. Yeah, I loved it.

So something for everyone listening, right? The old school way of like, get them to say yes, get them to say yes. Get them to say yes. The more yeses that they say, the more likely they are to say yes is not true. In fact, what they have found is if someone has the ability to say no, they're actually more likely to say yes. It's when people feel trapped, that they push back when they don't feel like they have a choice. And that's why I like the way that you asked this. What I also want everyone to listen to. He has been dropping some very serious insights on how to do Discovery. But I want you to listen to his tone. I want you to rewind and go back and listen to what tone he gets into when he's asking his discovery questions. It is a very calm, confident, inquisitive. This is why, like, I go against the grain with a lot of sales people. Like, I don't actually ask my reps to stand when they're on a demo, right? Or like, energy creates, you know, emotion. I actually want you being calm because when you're hype, you don't listen, you don't listen. You're going to miss the little things, right? And so the little things are what matters, right? Sometimes it's the things that are not said that matter most as you go through discovery. Like, how do you work with your team to catch those nuances, right? Or to, to take that pause or to ask that extra question of the things that maybe aren't being said as you go through discovery.

So two things. One, when I'm having a coaching session with an AE and they're talking to me differently than how I hear them on the call. I'm going to ask them straight up. Why do you talk to me differently than when you talk to a prospect? Let's say, what do you mean? Your tone is very calm. You're treating me like somebody you know, you're much More casual, still professional. Why? Why are you treating me differently? I find that the AES that perform really well. I mean, there are many reasons why they perform well. Okay, Many variables to it, obviously. But the AES that do perform well in general sound just the same on the phone as they do when they're talking to me. There is no difference. And so tone is a big thing. The second thing, and, Kevin, part of me, if I missed part of your question, when paying attention to things that are unsaid, which are sometimes the most important, the way to help get there is to recap. Is to recap. And there are AES that are afraid to recap because they're afraid to indirectly communicate to the prospect that they don't understand something. That's one reason why they're afraid to do it. Another reason why they're afraid to do it is they're afraid to. They find that recapping what someone just said doesn't do anything. Like, why would I recap what you just said? Like, what does that accomplish? I'm just. Wouldn't you be. Wouldn't you have the reaction of, why are you repeating what I just said? But when you recap what someone said, one of two things happen. They either say, exactly, you got everything correct. Which is what I want to know. Two is they'll say, well, no, that's not exactly what we do or how we do it. What the problem we have is. It's this. Oh, okay, clarification. Or three, you got it exactly right. And they say, yeah, and. And then they tell you more. That also gives the AAE a chance to continue to think. When I'm recapping what you just said. It takes any pressure off of me to think about what I want to do next or what I want to next. It's actually an amazing solution to take all the pressure off me when I would normally say without recapping. Oh, okay, Kevin, cool. And then I'm like, what do I want to ask next? In the meantime, I could just recap. Oh, so what is that? So what you're saying is this, this, and this and that. Oh, interesting. And now I'm, like, out of my head completely, and now I can listen more, be more present, be more curious, and the questions will come better. And the worst case scenario is, let's say, I don't know what question to ask next, and there's silence on the phone. I just say, kevin, I apologize. I'm just processing what you just said and taking some notes on that. So I appreciate it. So I just love. Recapping is an amazing, amazing tool. So simple.

It's simple. And I want everyone listening. Pay attention here. Right? There's a difference between recapping and parroting. A lot of reps parrot. They just say back what the person said. That is not recapping. Okay. When you know, okay, so which one of these you're struggling with? Yeah, I'm struggling with connect rates. Okay. You're struggling with connect Rates? Struggling with connect rates. Okay, got it. That's just a parody. You're just saying it back now. Some of my favorites there, like Tell Me more is one of my favorite discovery lines by far. But I love to set it up with. With like a curiosity builder, right? Of they say something, you go, interesting. Really?

Huh?

Oh, wow. Like something that makes them, like, it triggers curiosity. Like, oh, interesting.

Can you.

Can you tell me a little bit more about that? I haven't heard it phrased that way before. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? I think you might approach this differently than others. Right? And you give them that little justifier as well. That kind of lifts their ego up. That was always my favorite setup, is a curiosity response with a tell me more with a justifier. Oh, interesting, huh? Charles, Tell me a little bit more about that. I haven't heard someone phrase recaps that way before. Like, could you give me a little bit more?

That's very cool. I like that a lot. Another formula is simple formula that I help AES execute in order to keep the thread. They said something you and you say, oh, that's interesting. When you say X, then the next part of that sentence is when you say X, how do you mean? How do you mean? Actually, I'll talk about this for a quick second. Not. It's not. What do you mean by that? What do you mean by that? Can come off as aggressive and make somebody defensive. How do you mean? Maybe grammatically doesn't make any sense, but when you change. When you say connect rates, when you say you have a problem with X, how do you mean? People open up, and that's like a mini formula. When you say X, how do you mean? When you say yes, can you tell me a little bit more about that? So I like yours as well. Just a different version of it.

And that's the beauty of this, y'.

All.

And I hope you can, like, hear this. We go through. There's a lot of ways to do this, but the themes are very similar. Right? We are trying to ask questions. We are trying to build curiosity through our questions. And the beauty of questions. Right. I don't think it's any surprise that we share very similar backgrounds in discovery. If one of your favorite books was question based selling. Because it's one of my favorite books too. Right. Is you can actually sell through questions because you wouldn't be asking some of these questions if you didn't have solutions to them. And that's what people forget about discovery. I wouldn't be asking you about connect rates if I didn't have a way to improve your connect rate. And so you're subtly like planting seeds of. They may have something for this as well through discovery, which I think is really, really good. And there's one more question I wanted to ask you here because you did it again unprompted when we got into upfront contracts, is you got permission. And I'm a big believer in this as well. A lot of salespeople feel like they you want to avoid being told no. So I'm just going to ask it. I'm not going to get permission. Right. Especially when it comes to the tough questions. So first of all, most sales reps avoid the tough questions. But then also too, a lot of the times when they do do it, they just go for it. It's like they work themselves up and they go for it. How do you approach that tough question? Like, do you get permission first? Do you just go right into it? Like, how do you approach kind of that question? That might be a little bit harder to ask.

There are a number of different ways to approach it, depending on your rapport with the prospect and depending on the type of prospect that you're speaking to. Some of them are very direct and that's how they speak. So there's no, you know, one way to do it. First of all, for those AES that are afraid to ask tough questions, I'm going to tell you right now, tough questions make your job so much fun. Your job as a salesperson is stressful enough. Have fun, let loose. Because it's okay to tell me no and when it's okay to tell me no, the weight has been lifted off my shoulders. And that gives me the right to ask you when you know how to ask a direct question. Honestly, you can ask almost any question you want to ask. That's the reality of it. One way I do that, and I touched upon it earlier, are humbling disclaimers, which we talked about. I talked about it on another podcast. Also. The humbling disclaimers are, hey, Kevin, I could be way off or I could be way out of bounds when I asked this question. I'm not trying to ask it, but when you say you have a problem with X, like, how long has that been an issue for? And then you can end that question again with another humbling disclaimer by saying, just really curious to understand how you guys operate. It's like your sandwich, like a disclaimer sandwich, if you will. That allows you to ask a direct question. That's one way. Another way. Oh, that's very interesting. Can I maybe ask you, like, a really weird question about that, Kevin? Can I maybe ask you, like, a pretty direct question about that? Would that be okay? It gives me another chance. Just like the humbling disclaimer gave me a chance for asking for permission. Gives me a chance to ask you a very direct question. And then the third way, depending again on your rapport and the type of prospect it is, just say, oh, that's interesting. And then just ask. Just not necessarily a disclaimer. You just say, out of my own mere curiosity. And then just ask the direct question. Asking direct questions should shows that you're very confident without being rude. We're never being rude. I actually used to think it meant being rude, but that's how I ask direct questions.

Yeah, I think the setup is key. There again, everyone listening. The tone is also key more than anything, especially for all of. I'll call it the new virtual sellers. There's a lot of people out there that have not sold virtually, have not sold remotely. They were used to selling face to face, where you can read a situation, you can read body language. Your body language controls a lot of the meaning of the word. When you're over the phone, over zoom tone is now everything because there is no body language to watch. And so if you're worried about being too aggressive, watch your tone. Because if you stay calm, if you stay relaxed, if you sound curious, people allow you to dig a little bit more as opposed to being too direct. Everyone who said they read the Challenger customer, Challenger seller, they think they know what it means. I gotta challenge. No, no. That was not what that entire book was about. It was not about challenging people or being aggressive. It was about leading with insights and educating, which was something you mentioned at the very beginning of this is if you can teach them something that helps to establish trust. Exactly.

And there was. Sorry to interrupt you, Kevin. There was another way to ask a direct question that I completely forgot, and that is to ask the direct question while you're simultaneously asking for permission to ask it. That sounds Like, Kevin, would it be okay if I asked you why you feel that way? Something like that.

The beauty. There's so much. We could go on Discovery all day long, right? So there's something called a layered question, right? Where if you ask two questions together, the answer to the first one also is the answer to the second one. So an example of that, right, Is, hey, I was hoping you could help me out real quick. Do you got a sec? By saying yes to you got a sec? You're also saying yes to help, right? Whereas if you just come out and say, hey, would you help me? It's more direct. So what you're doing is a pseudo layered question there of, like, you know, would it be okay if I asked you, how are you doing blank right now? By saying yes to the first, they're also agreeing to the second. And it is a layered question. And you can set things up very well there. And so, like, this is.

This is.

I could riff on Discovery all day because, like, this is where I think it goes, right? We've been going for almost 45 minutes now, and that's not even enough. Like, we spend hours, hours and hours on Discovery training. I rarely listen to the end of calls. I rarely go to the end. I listen to the beginning because that's where I believe most deals are lost. Anytime a rep comes up and asks me for a help on a deal, the first question I ask them is, what problem do they agree they had? That's a Discovery question. It's nothing at the end. It's what problem did they agree they had? And go through it like, discovery is everything. And so. But with this, we've covered a lot here. I hope people took notes. This is one of those where, like, I hope people come back and, like, write this shit down and actually go implement these things, because it's going to help them. But if you could narrow it down, right? We've been going for 45 minutes now. Three key takeaways. If they forgot everything but three things that would make their discovery better, what would those three things be?

Recapping, humbling, disclaimer to ask difficult questions, and asking for permission. Those three things help reduce your ego, help you become more vulnerable, and allow the prospect to want to help you.

I love that. I love it. It's so simple, y', all, but powerful. It's simple, but powerful. I hope people follow and actually do it. That's the key with all this. Like, anyone can go listen to a podcast, and I love people like, oh, I listen to podcasts all the time, it's like cool. Like, what do you do? Did you do anything with it or you just listen? And so the last thing I want to touch on here, right, Is the name of the podcast is Live Better Sell Better. Right. Like I have this weird idea that if people took better care of themselves, that if people and companies empowered their employees, that if we lived better lives, that the sales also follow. What would be your live better advice for people listening in terms of how to get more joy or fulfillment or energy out of life?

I am not currently an individual contributor, but I can tell you right now that there was when I was, there was always a direct correlation between how well I did as an individual contributor and whether or not I was exercising. I couldn't believe it. It's just true. When I had down quarters, I just wasn't exercising at all and I was eating unhealthy, all that stuff. I mean, at this point, I don't even care what you're eating. When I woke up in the morning and exercised, I just sold better. I was in a better mood. Things you think more clearly, you're more confident. The endorphins, you're happier. When you're happier, you want to have fun. I want just to reiterate one more time, have fun at selling. And the more you can do to make yourself positive and give yourself those endorphins, the more fun you're going to have on the phone.

I love that. I love that. And there's so many studies that talk about when you're exercising, you're more creative, you're a better problem solver, you're more empathetic, you have more energy, you can stay on task better. I mean like everything, right? You look better, you feel better, you sleep better. There are certain things, and I've talked about this with companies I work with, I'm like, why can't I make exercise and meditation mandatory? Like, if I can make people cold call, like just a soul sucking exercise, why can't I make people exercise and meditate if I know it's going to improve their results?

I love that. I love that. I absolutely love that.

When, if and when I'm ever running my own thing, best believe 10 o'. Clock. We're all doing burpees, y'.

All. Let's do this.

Let's rock. So, Charles, Charles, my man, this was phenomenal. You lived up to some of the reputation. People are starting to. I'm starting to hear the whispers, I'm starting to hear the recommendations. Yo, this dude, Charles, Charles. He gets it. He gets it. He goes through it. How can people get more of you, man? Like where, where can they find you? Get more insights, get more of kind of what you're putting down. Like, how can they get more Charles in their life?

You obviously can hit me up on LinkedIn if you wanted to see some extra content coming out soon. I am coming out with a Discovery Mastery digital product, if you will. So you can just sit there and think. Unfortunately, Discovery is kind of just like long term investing. Long term investing is boring and it's hard to do. And Discovery is not a quick fix. You have to study it, you have to pay attention to it and you have to keep the thread on it. You have to really sit there and listen and pay attention and practice. And so I'm coming out with that. Otherwise anybody can hit me up on LinkedIn and I look forward to hearing from any of you.

Hell yeah, my man. Well, I would recommend everyone do that. I can't wait till that course is ready. We'll make sure to promote it out to the listeners and the email list. But my dude, thank you so much for your time, your energy, your insights. I appreciate you.

Thank you, Kevin, for sure.