Diving Into a New Way to Work with Beth Jacobs

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Thanks so much. Super excited to be here, Katie.

This is going to be a good one. So I got to ask the first question of why this topic, When I asked you what you want to talk about, what you're focused on, this was what came up. You said the future of work and autonomy, flexibility, accountability. Why is this so top of mind for you right now?

I think it's been top of mind for me most of my career. I think most folks have found that work doesn't work for them. It's something that is obviously required in order to pay the bills and do all of the things you want to do in life. But it doesn't work for most people the way it has been traditionally set up. And so much of how we work today has been set up, you know, 100 plus years ago in a different time, a different era and a different. Just a different place. So what I found over my career is where I thrive is not in a traditional work setting. And I think that's true for a lot of folks out there. So that's why it's top of mind for me. And I think that developing a new way to work and can only bring our businesses forward at a much faster clip.

And I want to touch on this word you said, which is thrive. Right. So, like, I didn't thrive in like the normal work setting because we'll unpack how work came to be in here in a second. Like, how did you ask this question? Like, how did you figure out how you thrived or that it wasn't working for you? Right. Because that one's different. Everyone has different styles and needs. But like, how. What did you pick up on where you find like, no, like this isn't working for me. Like, there has to be a better way.

Yeah, yeah, I would say, and I will, you know, full disclosure. I've been working from home since 2009, so it's been a long road. I think the. There were many things over the years and in different roles and positions. And when I say I wasn't thriving, don't get me wrong, I was still performing. I was always, you know, at the top of the list. And I actually that's what has put. Provided me with flexibility and with more autonomy when other folks weren't given that same level. So that's why I've been working from home from 2009. And I think that there were a lot of indicators around when I worked in an office, the social scene that a lot of folks have. I was working so many hours, probably 70, 80 hours a week. Because what I realized is during the day there's so much politicking going on in the office that I'm going to go in and I'm going to politic all day and then I have to get my work done and then that's happening at night. And I can't imagine. I know for some folks, they enjoy the like office dynamic and I do to an extent. And I miss those parts of it to an extent, but not all day, every day. Like I come to work because I want to accomplish things and I enjoy what I do, but I do not want to do it 80 hours a week anymore.

And I like that you distinguish the difference between performing and thriving. Because I think there's actually a really good call out because there are a lot of high performers that are not thriving, right. Living their best lives, having the energy, the relationships that they want or they need, but they're performing so they're like, well, this must be the, the way. And so break, break down the history of work for me real quick because I love that you called this out of like, you know, how we're working now. This, I mean, obviously I don't remember last time I was working 9 to 5. I don't think I've ever worked 9 to 5. But conceptually 9 to 5, right. Like in an office, all those things. Talk about kind of that evolution of works. I think the backstory here would help people have a better understanding like where even like the eight hour day work came from and all of that. So break that down for everyone because I think the history here is very. Yeah.

And I think, and I am no expert in labor relations and the history of work, but my understanding is that a lot of that came out from the Ford production lines and where the eight hour workday came from, five days a week. All of that narrative came from that place. And at that time that was a concession, right? That was a smaller amount of time that it, that folks were working before and that Ford felt that folks needed to be able to thrive. And so that was progress at that time. And now it's been 100 years and that hasn't really changed. And I would say in professional settings, in the, in a lot of work settings, folks are not even working eight hour days. They are working 60, 70, 80 hours a week. And my question there is, are folks actually accomplishing more in that time or less? And my belief is that 100% they are accomplishing less. There have been many studies done that says that most folks have about four or, I'm sorry, five to seven hours of true productivity in their day, not work time like you can do a lot during work time, right? The chitty chat, the like, all of the other things. Sit in, sit in on this webinar, listen to it, consider it part of your work day and do a lot of other, a lot of other things that are or are not productive. And so there's been a lot of research, there's been a lot of new information uncovered and yet folks are really married to the 9 to 5 and in professional office environments, especially with new technology where folks can be available 24, 7. And that it has gone to a whole new level of burnout and honestly a lack of engagement.

It's crazy, right? I like how it is. I think very similar studies, I think some of the more recent ones are like two to three hours of productive.

Work per day at a time. And like in chunks, right?

In chunks, not like, not flow state. Like I got 15 minutes here, I got maybe a 20 minute burst over here. Two to three hours of productive work per day is what they are seeing in the knowledge worker space, which is just insane, right? But people are still working 9, 10, 11 hour days and it's like, what are we working on? Like, where is that time going? And what always cracks me up about Ford, right? You know, because like Ford did. Ford was the one that like, you know, he'd made the concession, he shortened the hours. But a lot of people forget why he did, did it. Okay? Ford was a capitalist. What he realized if people were working 12 hours, they couldn't spend money. If they were working from seven to seven, they didn't need a car, they wouldn't, they weren't things because they were always at work. So he conceded so people could spend, so they'd have to work so he could keep them in the cycle. Like the dude knew what he was doing all this. And yet here we are 100 years later. Nine to five, nine to five. And for a lot of people it's eight to five to seven to dinner time, to nine to a little bit of email cleanup, wake up and do it all over again.

And so yeah, I read an interview with a woman recently who said, who lives off the grid. And, and they were like, well, how long does it take you to build a fire and to like make your meals and all of this. And she's like, you know, it takes a long time. And she's like, but it's amazing to me what people will do to avoid building a fire. Like, you're still, you're still, you're doing all of these things to avoid the Fire. It's like doing what, what I'm doing, but I don't have to do what you do. And don't get me wrong, I'm not going off the grid.

Okay, yeah, we all have visions of that now. Like I'm looking at buying some land. Like oh, it'd be nice just to really, really unplug. So talk, let's go down this path here of like how much of that is self inflicted kind of what you were just talking about versus the environment work is creating. Because I think there's two sides of this, right? Like I love that analogy. Like people will avoid making the fire. No one's making them avoid making the fire. That's so talk about first like the self inflicted, like what are things that as an individual I can and should be doing to thrive in work? And then we can talk about what companies and leaders can be doing to help people thrive in work.

Yes. So part of my, my work history is that I definitely some self inflicted work there. I mean, absolutely. I started working when I was 15. I was like, I want to go to college. There's no way my parents are going to pay for it. So I need to work and I need to be good at it and I need to make as much money as I can so that I can go to college and not have much debt and do all of those things. And so at a very young age that is what worked for me. I worked at an amusement park and I worked my way up the little corporate rides department ladder and worked 50 hours a week while going to school full time and 80 hours a week in the summer. And when I graduated from college I was like 40 hours a week. This feels like nothing. So what did I do? I worked more. And the problem is that you get into a cycle where that is rewarded, right? Like you're going to work, I can, I can have you instead of hiring two people and you know, so that it, it worked for me for a while. Right. It helped me get where I am today. I was rewarded for it. And so it has taken me many years to break some of those habits and it's still something that I have to consciously do every day. And so some of that is very self inflicted and then the other half of that is that it is rewarded. People love it when you are willing to give it your all. Right, but should you be giving your all to work or should there be something left for the rest of your life? And so there are people and organizations who are willing to take your all. And I Think the. So you get rewarded for it. So I do think that there's two sides of it at every piece. I think with the culture that, like, we are, you know, building at V Chief and part of what I found in my years of consulting is that people might be willing to give their all for a while, and that might work for you for a little while, Might work for both sides. It will not work for long. It will not work for the long term. There is a sustainability factor that every individual needs for their lives and then every business needs in order to move them forward.

This might be a loaded question here, but I'm going to ask it because I struggle with this internally as well. Do you think if you went back and did it differently, do you think you'd be in the situation you are now? This is what I struggle with sometimes. It's almost like we have to go through it to get to this enlightened place of, like, you know what, maybe that wasn't all worth it, but at the same time, would I be in this situation if I hadn't? So what are your thoughts there? Because I struggle with this topic internally is like, you know, I'm talking to people younger in their careers and letting them know, like, hey, like, you know, it's not all about this, but at the same time it's like, can they get to this, you know, this place of freedom, this place of autonomy, if they don't do that early? So talk a little bit about that. I'm really curious on your.

Yeah, that's a tough question because. And I brings up a lot of different things and I think around, like, how what opportunities people have at a young age and like, what their network is at a young age and how all of those pieces fit together. So I'm going to put that piece aside for a minute and more focus on just the root of your question. I would say I don't know. I think that every piece of my work and life experience have gotten me to where I am today. Whether it was a terrible work experience, whether it was like an amazing mentor or boss that I had along the way, both of those things have. Have brought me to this place. Now, looking back, do I look and see at all of those hours that I work, that I was working and I was performing, could I have performed better actually, if I had worked less? I remember one moment where, you know, it's probably one o' clock in the morning and I'm working on something to get to my boss and I, like, shoot her a message and she writes me back and is like, my advice to you in this moment is go to bed. And she's like, this answer will be clear to you in the morning. And she's like, it's not clear to me. It's 1am it's not going to be clear to you either. I wake up and I'm like, okay. I go to bed, I get up the next morning and I'm like, oh, yeah. And I finished the thing in like 15 minutes. So, like, you know, was I. You know, it's the whole, like, what do people value? And so like, my boss at that moment did not value the fact that I was working at 1am I? But so many cultures do. And so if people can think about what they are valuing in the fact that you are working so hard and what that actually means in terms of what you are producing and how you are performing. So looking back, I'm not sure, honestly. And it was, you know, times have changed a lot. I'm not sure if I would be here at that moment if I hadn't put in all of that time. But I can say that I do think that I would have performed even better had I felt that I was able to work less.

And I think that's the key on all this, is, like, there's working more and there's getting the right things done. There's working more and having quality of work. One, I've had very similar conversations, like, with my managers, right? Like, I get a ding on the weekend that they're updating the one on one doc. I get an email late at night and I'm like, you better stop right now. Like, I don't know why you're working on this on a Sunday afternoon. Because to me, that's actually a sign of something else. Either we're not focused during the week the way that we need to be, or something else is happening here. Because I don't want you working on this on Sunday. That's not what is there for. Right. And I think it's important as leaders that, like, I recognize hard work, but I'm not an effort hound. I'm an efficiency hound. Like, yeah, get it done. I don't want it. If it's taking you 10 hours, we need to talk about.

Let's talk about that.

Like, with. Even with my team, same as, like, I'm hearing, oh, like, oh, like you're putting all these extra hours. Why? Like, it's not. It's. Something's wrong here right now. So let's, let's shift this to the leadership side. Right. Because I know a lot of leaders, you know, are dealing with and struggling with this. Like, okay, I hear you, Beth. Yeah, great, cool. Utopian idea. How, how do I make sure that, you know, people are getting the right things done while giving this sort of autonomy or freedom to do it? Like, let's talk about now how leadership can maybe set this tone a little bit better.

Yeah, it comes from the top 100%. If your leader is getting pressure, they are going to put that pressure on you most of the time, not all of the time, unless they are a really fantastic leader. But yes, I remember. And back to your question around internal versus external pressure. When I first got kids, we went different route foster care. I got kids on a Friday afternoon and I had just traveled for two weeks straight. And you know what my boss said? You can take a couple days off, but make sure you get this report done before 9am Monday morning. And so there, that is where it has to come. It has to come from the top. You cannot survive in your job thinking that you yourself can be the one who's going to make all of the change and live a, you know, a healthy, sustainable life. So as leaders, it comes down to finding a fit for you in an organization that values the same things that you value and then ensuring that that is the leadership that you are giving to your team. So, for example, I did do consulting for a few years, and honestly, most of it was because I was like, work isn't working for me. I'm going to make it work for me. And then I started with V Chief because this was the place where I felt that I could be myself and that it was a place that upheld the same values that I have. And so whatever your value are, you need to explore that, figure out what they are and find a place that values the same things. And it's okay if folks out there don't value the same things that I do. It's not a problem. Everyone should and can do what is important to them. But I think it's about finding that fit and finding a place that has the same outlook that you do.

And that's where I think actually a lot of founders and leaders sometimes mess up is they push either their values down or they feel like, all right, well, I'm not asking my people to work this way. This is just how I, I work and they get how that actually plays out, right? No, I don't want my people working on the weekend. No, I would never want that. But your whole Team knows you work on the weekends.

Yes.

You're going to create that dynamic, you're going to create that, that culture. Right? That was actually something that happened with my team when I moved. So I was in la, move to Austin. And, you know, I start work at 6am, always have. That's what I do. And what started happening, right, is I was starting at 6. Most of my team was still a couple hours behind. So, like, you know, I'm sending slacks and, you know, emails out at 4 o' clock in the morning and people started responding at 7 o' clock my time, at my time. And it actually took me like a couple weeks to go and say, wait, wait, wait, wait. It is five o' clock in the. What on earth are you doing responding to this email right now? They're like, oh, well, I mean, you know, you sent it out, so I wanted to make sure I got to it. I was like, oh, Jesus. Right? So, like, I would like leave a lot of things unsaid. I was just getting my work done, but I wouldn't send them there until I knew the team was up and going because they'll, they'll mirror that. Even if you're not trying to set that up, it just happens because you're the leader, people look to it.

So I would say, I would say yes. And though actually to that, yes. So we, we have definitely had that issue at V. Chief, but our entire idea is that you work when it works for you. And so if you get a slack from the CEO at 10 o' clock on a Saturday night, you know, there's a good chance she's in Egypt and she's working when it works for her. And that doesn't mean that that has to work for you. And so we actually, folks do work, they might work on the weekend, they might work. They might be in a different time zone in a different country. They might, they're, you know, that's kind of what we do, is do it when it works for you and be very clear with folks that that is not when they need to work. And so I used to be more of that, like, okay, schedule, send and do all of that. And now I'm more of like, everybody's working when it works for them and that's okay. But you have to be clear with people and say, like, you should not be working just because it's a time that I am working or the CEO is working.

And that was the message that had to be conveyed because I had conveyed it. That's why it caught me so off guard guard is we had always talked that way, but all of a sudden how I worked changed. And as their leader, I think that even without asking for, they're like, oh, well, that's when our leader likes to work. So that means that's when I need to work. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's just me working. You get into your day like the normal way and I think that's just the key to all of it. Now, real quick as we start to wrap here, I really want to talk about like these two a words, autonomy and accountability.

Yes.

Because these are hard, right. As leaders in terms of like, how do we balance autonomy with accountability? I would love to kind of get your thoughts here.

So we do have a work when it works for you schedule. We have, technically we call it a four day work week, but what we have is, and I think that helps with the piece that we were just talking about. There's always going to be people working when you're not working and you're going to be working when other people, people aren't working. It's not a big deal. It's, it's not like a set day or anything like that. It's just work your, you know, 32 hours, get your stuff done. We have meetings on pretty much for the most part just on Tuesdays and Thursdays, sometimes on Mondays, come to your meetings, get your shit done. Nobody cares. And at the same time that means there is a high level of, there has to be a high level of accountability as individuals and as leaders. So being very clear on what metrics that, that are expected for folks to hit when they're expected to hit them and clear communication if things are not going well. So everybody comes to V Chief because they think they're going to love the culture. Let me tell you, that does not work for everyone. It works for some people. And for some people it is amazing. They love it. They have everything that they wanted for a job. We have recruited people. Our team is made up of people who left the workforce because work wasn't working for them. We have amazing high performers. While everybody else was like, there's a talent crisis. We didn't have a crisis. We were recruiting amazing people. We have the best sales team I have ever managed in my life. And the reason for that is because this works for them. Now we've had other folks who come on and it did not work for them. They hadn't worked from home before. They had distractions that did not work for them. They wanted to leave their house, go somewhere, turn off life. They had other people in their lives who potentially want to. Who don't understand what work from home means and the flexibility means and want you to do other things when you, you want to be working.

Yes.

And so there is a huge amount of self awareness that's needed on how you work and how you work. And then there is a huge amount of personal accountability and the ability for a leader to also hold you accountable. You know, it's. It's like having kids, Right. If they're doing their homework. Am I talking to them about doing their homework? No. As soon as those grades slip, Mom's got something to say.

Thank you. Thank you.

It's the same thing in the workplace. Everything's going great, great. I, you know, I. Wonderful. Let's keep going. Let's talk about your growth and what, what you need and, you know, how, how you, you want to grow your career and all of those things. And at the same time, I'm going to be looking at the, like, what's important, you know, we haven't grown 500% with everyone working whenever they want and wherever they want. By not, not holding folks accountable to their jobs and their metrics. And so that, I mean, there you do not get flexibility or autonomy without accountability.

I was just going to pull it back to something you said at the very beginning that I didn't want people to miss. I earned the autonomous autonomy and flexibility through performance. I was performing. In fact, I was a high performer. Right. And this is something I think is lost in translation a lot of times is like, if you are performing, autonomy and flexibility show up. And generally, truthfully, a lot of high performance, they should. Right. And if they don't, though, then your high performers will leave because they're like, no, I'm performing and I'm still being managed this way. Deuces, I'm out. I'm not going to deal with that. But then what happens is you have the top performers and then you have the rest looking, going well. I want that.

Yes.

Why Beth doesn't have to come in the office. So why do. Because Beth is at 200% of her goal. You get to 200% of your goal, you can have it, too. And so I do think there's been this pushback on understanding what our results are. In our job, if you are hitting them, hit them. But if you're not, that's when you get held accountable, is if you're not producing what you're supposed to produce, that's when there's a little bit more tightness or structure to get on track with that. So, like, talk about that a little bit. Just around, like, you know, maybe having some of those tough conversations. I know a lot of leaders, it's like, okay, we're remote now. I don't really know what Beth's doing out there. Maybe she's doing her job, maybe she's not. The results are okay. They're not good, but they're not bad. Like, talk about that a little bit, especially in this remote world.

Yes. So the. I mean, the first part is clarity, right? What are the metrics that we're trying to hit and why are they important? So if a leader can't clarify what they expect from their team, whether it's a sales team or anything else, you're not going to get anything because people aren't working on the things that they should be working on to move the organization forward. So first thing is like, clarity of role and clarity of expectations. And now that's easy to say if you've been in a company who's been around for a long time and in a smaller business where things are constantly changing as they are at V Chief and a lot of other businesses, that's much harder to do. So it really is breaking it down for that individual and their role of what are the things that must be moved forward and people. We cannot move everything forward at the same pace at the same time. So what are those topics? Things that have to move in order to move the organization, the team forward, get into those things, be clear about them, and then have those conversations. And, you know, if there is one thing I learned managing rides at amusement park, it was document, document, document. So, like, what is happening? What's going well? What isn't going well? And be really clear with folks. Look, it's this piece of your job is going really well. This is not what's going on here. Do you need support? Do you not enjoy the job? Is this not what you expected? Is this. Is this environment working for you? Is it not working for you? Have you worked from home before? Have you not? What are the pieces that you need to be successful? And so those are a lot of the conversations that we have if things maybe are not going as well.

And then of course, I love that because it.

Documentation.

Yeah. So like, one of my favorite business books is not a business book. It's the Checklist Manifesto.

Oh, I haven't read that.

Oh, you will love it because also you've lived it, especially in an amusement Park, Right. Like the whole concept.

Yeah, I was like, when you said checklist, it gives me a little trauma.

I cover this, like Amusement Park 1. Like, there's a checklist and what. The whole concept of the book is actually written by a surgeon. It's not written by a business person. It's not written by leadership surgeon. And talking about how checklists, right, Reduce death rates in hospitals, they reduce infection rates, they reduce, you know, how long people stayed in bed, right? Like, all just from the simple checklist of like, hey, did you change their IV today? Like, what are those things that are necessary? Same idea. What do pilots do before every flight? They go through their pre flight checklist. Right. And the whole concept there is, to your point, the documentation of best practices. Right? You don't gotta checklist everything. Like, okay, did I log in? Yes, I logged in. Did I check? No, no, it's not that, but it's like, did you check every individual's seatbelt on the ride?

Yes, exactly.

Did you ensure that the surge protector was flipped to whatever. Like, those are the make or break things that. You know what, we should checklist it. And to your point, with my teams, we talk about the D3 method, which was define, document, demonstrate, define what good looks like, document it and then demonstrate it. Show, teach, coach what good looks like. Because that's the only way to make it repeatable, especially in this remote world, because people aren't seeing it as much if they're not in the office, if they're not next to someone making that call or hearing something. You need to share this stuff more remotely, which I think is key. And so. All right, so as we start to wrap here, I knew there's no way we're gonna keep this to 30 minutes because it's too good of a topic, right? A lot of this already blends into the theme of, you know, why I started this show is this concept of live better sell better, right? This idea of, like, I. I have this weird idea, right, that if we took better care of ourselves, if we had more energy, if we knew what made us thrive, if we held ourselves more responsible so we didn't have to be held accountable, like, we'd also sell better. The results would be better as well. So what would your live better advice be for people listening? It might be in line with what we've been talking about, or it might be something completely different. But, like, what would that parting live better advice be?

I think the live better is really get to know yourself, and that is much harder than it sounds. And you might need to get to know yourself through what other people tell you. Some of the best my self awareness has come from other people telling me something and I'm like, oh, yeah, good or not so great. So listen to others and get to know yourself. Because what I'm saying works for me, may not work for you, and that is okay. But get to know where and how you thrive and find it.

I was hoping you'd come back to that word because that was how you described it. To be like, this is how I thrived and understanding what does bring the best out of you. But being open to other people's opinions, I think that's phenomenal. Like, I haven't heard it phrased that way before. I love it. Like, a lot of my stuff, self awareness came from third party feedback, which is true. Like, I've never thought about it that way. Because if you do, if you just sit in there, your viewpoint is different than how other people can see. We all have blind spots, all blind spots.

And on both ends, the good stuff and the bad stuff. Somebody gave me positive feedback and I was like, who are you talking about? And they're like, you, you do that. And I was like, really interesting.

All right, yeah, I'll do that a little bit more.

Everybody doesn't do that.

Yeah. Beth, this was amazing. Where. Where can people get more from you? Where are you putting out contact? Where can they. They are content. Where can they find you? Like, where can they get more Beth Jacobs in their lives?

LinkedIn and Twitter.

Okay.

Yeah. Are where I am the most.

Well, we will include those in the show notes, everybody. Beth, thank you so much for, for your time, your energy, your insights to this one was. This is phenomenal. We'll probably have to do a part two for sure.

Thank you so much for having me. This is so fun. And this is like, I can talk about this for days.

We'll keep it going because I think a lot still needs to be covered here. So appreciate you back. Thank you.

Thanks so much.