Leverage Ops to Scale, Optimize & Strategize with Rachel Nazhand

Every company has breakdowns in their revenue process. Sure thing. Deals slip into next quarter, competitors creep in and swipe deals away at the last minute, and deals getting single threaded that don't get to power. These are just a few examples of revenue leak, but there are a ton more and they're preventing your team from reaching their sales targets. That's why I'm such a big fan of Clary's Revenue platform is the only tool that actually helps leaders take control of their revenue and thrive through any market conditions. Especially when things get tough. You can't afford to miss a single detail, but you also can't be leading by gut. Clary combines the science and the art of sales and sales leadership. So go to clary.com if you want to answer the most important question in your business. Are you going to meet, beat or Miss on revenue? Welcome to the live Better Sell Better podcast with your host Kevin Dorsey of Inside Sales Excellence, the number one Patreon group and YouTube channel for tech sellers and tech sales leaders where we dive in deep for tactical advice on how to book more meetings, close more deals faster and lead sales teams to success. But we don't stop there. We also focus on the person in salesperson. We talk about mindset goals, time management and so much more. So thank you for listening and if you're interested, head on over to patreon.com InsideSalesExcellence now with that, grab a notepad, get ready and let's dive into the good stuff. What up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the live Better Sell Better podcast. This is your host Kevin Dorsey, AKA kd. And today we are going to be diving into a topic that I wish more people understood. Because if you think about what it takes to scale, to grow, to optimize, to hit numbers at the foundation of it all, our systems, processes and operations, right? But then when you look at the SaaS industry you have rev ops, biz ops, Sales ops, Marketing ops. I think I just saw my first ops of ops the other day. Like there's operations everywhere as the foundation, but very rarely do sales leaders know how to leverage it to get them to where they're trying to go. Because when done Properly, Biz Ops RevOps are your best friend when scaling, optimizing and strategizing. And that is why I'm so pumped to have Rachel Nazad with me today. Because she has been in the trenches. This isn't theory, this isn't thought leadership. She has been in the trenches with over five different fast growing tech companies. She's done biz Ops. She's done Res Ops, she's been the VP of Ops and she's going to dive in with us today to talk about what it is, how to do it, and how to do it right. Rachel, welcome to the show.

Katie. Thank you. I'm feeling the energy.

You know you have to, right.

At this point. I've been told that the only reason.

People show up is just to get the intro and then they leave. They're like, okay, let me hear my.

Intro and then I can't get better from here.

So. Well, I'm pumped for this. And funny enough, you made a post about this about a week or so ago that I think is a perfect launching point for the conversation today. Right. And you said my favorite question is what is biz Ops or it's cousin Rev Ops or its third cousin remove twice Sales Ops. So let's start here, right? Like when we think about biz ops or RevOps or sales ops, can you kind of break down what it is and some of the differences between them?

Yes. So I think with all fields there's going to be people out there that are shaking their heads as they hear this and they may not agree, but I have a theory. Business operations is a broad version and I've used this parallel before. A square is always a rectangle. A rectangle is not always a square. Revenue operations, sales operations, all these different functions are specific disciplines of business operations. Business operations exists to make a company run most efficiently. And the beautiful part about that is that it can mean a number of different things. And if you've got great leadership in place, they're adjusting business operations to fit the needs of the organization at that time. So my fellow biz ops folks were holding on for the ride in these early stage, high growth companies. But Revops is a really amazing discipline and it's gotten a ton of publicity over the last couple of years and it's really gained a lot of clarity as a profession. But it's one type of business operations that is really vital and business operations is kind of one step removed from that. So my favorite way to build an early stage biz ops team is to include revenue operations for the full cycle, right? Sales operations, CS operations, marketing operations, the entire revenue experience. And then you can have the other really core functions, systems and it do all of your things plug together. Do they work? Is your product team using a project management system that's different from your sales team? Well, then how in the world are you going to get great requests and feature updates from one department to the next. And so it's glue. Business operations is glue. Revenue operations is also glue. Right. Rosalind has a lot of amazing content on this, where the strategy is established and then Revenue Operations executes on it. Same thing as business operations. We make the magic happen and we keep you all on the same page so you don't have to waste your time in these status meetings keeping people aligned. So you do it so you can just do your job.

And that's where I was hoping you'd go next of, like, how to properly leverage. Because I think RevOps has blown up over the past, like, couple years. And so it's like, everyone's hiring for it. But I don't believe a lot of senior leaders, whether it's sales, CS marketing, actually know how to leverage RevOps. Right? So RevOps comes in, and I'm the VP. I'm like, so, like, what do you do here? Like, are you gonna make me dashboards? Like, like, how. How should senior leaders be leveraging Rev Ops so they can do their job better?

I love that question so much. I'll get around to your answer by a small detour. My very first startup I worked for, I worked with alongside some really fabulous product managers. And if anybody has the opportunity in the career to align with a fabulous product manager, seize it. The reason I say that is because they taught us the way that you ask for stuff is not by telling you, like, I want to click the red button. Anybody can build your red button. The way to leverage an amazing product manager is to say, I need to be able to exit this screen faster so that I can get my notes in. And I think about that often because that's the way I try to coach my peers and across sales teams and CS teams and across the organization to leverage Ops. Tell me what you're going for, and I will give you an amazing way to accomplish it. Don't tell me that you need a dashboard. Tell me that you need your reps to know how they're pacing so that they can make an amazing decision on how to structure their day. Tell me that you need to know if you're pacing well in the month as a team. Maybe that's a dashboard. Maybe that's me looking at all of your historicals and comparing that against two years ago trends. Are you. It's like, I need to know what you're going for, and then I can get it faster because that's my job. I'm in the. I'm in the weeds. I see the trends, I see the pulse. Across the organization. And so a leader should leverage ops as a strategic partner in the sense of, I am trying to accomplish this thing. How can I know more about it and how can I get there faster? We're going to come to the table with. You don't need a red button. You need an automation that makes the screen go away faster and actually had captured your notes in the first place, so you're not typing them. Right. Like, I'm going to take what you're asking for and level it up times 10 and give you back 30 minutes in every day.

Unfortunately, I've really only worked like two strong OPS leaders in my career, and I still remember the first time I realized I had a real one, where it was a very similar conversation where I said, like, you know, I was like, here's like, what I want. And he put his hand up, he goes, kd, you're telling me how. Just tell me what. Just tell me what. Because I can guarantee you there's probably a better how than what you're talking about right now. Tell me what you want. Let me worry about the how. And I was like, oh.

You feel safe?

Oh, my gosh, this is. This is amazing. Right? And because it is. Because oftentimes, you know, we say what we want, but we're really describing the how. I want this dashboard to do this, to do that, to connect the dots. But really, it's like, use that. I want clarity. Here's what I want clarity on. Figure out the how of it. Right? Because now let's go another layer deeper here, too, because I do. I really want to call out the difference between what I believe, you know, ops and admin, because I think oftentimes rev Ops, biz ops gets actually more so treated as, like, system admins. You called it out very briefly as like, it's different in its role. Whereas, like, all right, you're just working with the tools. But I believe OPS should be kind of a strategist as well. Like, helping you kind of foresee things. Right? So talk about how RevOps should be involved, or biz ops, however we want to label it, because they call it runs up should be involved in strategy. Strategy, direction, decisions.

My favorite way to describe that piece. There's administrative tasks to almost every function in the company, RevOps notwithstanding. And the difference between where the strategy comes in is if we're doing our jobs well. I'm. I'm solving problems that you didn't even know you had. And I am coming to the table with insights that you haven't had time, but nor should you. It's not your job. You're on the front lines as a sales leader, front lines, either with your team or, you know, externally facing. And so it's my job to come to the table and tell you things that you didn't even know. What are you. Are conversion slowing down between stages? Is your ICP profile? Is it like, are you changing slightly? You might not even be thinking about asking these questions. And I am coming to the table to tell you, like, I'm looking at all of this and I'm seeing a trend here. Here's how I think we should be addressing it, or I'm hearing this. There's a pulse amongst the team. Here's how we can think about addressing that proactively. Or here are the things that I'm hearing across the industry. I'm plugged in with other operators across 100 other companies, and they're starting to see deal structure shift a little bit. They're going from 12 months to 36 months. They're saying their investors want that. Here's how I can come back in and help us introduce that now so we're not playing catch up later. So it's. It's enabling the folks that are driving revenue to drive it more. More smartly making up words. But it's. It's coming to the table and saying, here's the things that you may not be thinking about because you're in the here and now. Here's what I'm thinking about down the road. Here's how we can look around corners together. Here's how this compares to where we've been and where we want to go. And so it's just. And then it's all the fun stuff too, like, hey, we can plug this into that and we can automate this system and we can give all of the people on your team back 20 minutes at the end of every day if we just send a loom instead of bringing them into one meeting. Here's how I can make your life better so you can do the things you're really great at.

And you used one of my favorite words there, which was insights. And I was hoping we'd get to this because that was something oftentimes with my ops teams, that was every ops leader I've sat down with. When we hired new ops people, this was one of the first things I would sit down with them and talk about, which is, I don't need the data from you, I don't need the information from you. I need the Insights from the information. I need the diamonds and the data. What are you seeing? Right. What do you see that I don't see? Because if all you're doing is providing me data, I can go get data on my own. What are the diamonds in the data? What are the insights? Where are the trends? What are you catching? Right. And so I'm going to say this is a different direction. I want you speaking to like now to revops people for a second. How do you communicate these things? Like, how do you communicate these insights? How do you communicate the, like what you're seeing to an obnoxious, borderline, maybe aggressive, slightly narcissistic sales leader like myself? Right. Like, how do you communicate some of that? Right. Because sales, sales leaders especially, maybe not as much in CS or marketing, but like, we kind of have our ideas and like this is what we want. How do you kind of challenge, push back or provide some insights or blind spots to an executive leader?

That is the difference between admin and systems work and strategy and operations work and admin type work is. I've pulled a report for you. We have 15 leads at the top of funnel. We have 13 leads in the middle of the funnel and blah, blah, blah. Strategy and operations and insight work is we have 15 leads at the top of the funnel. They are a certain type of profile. The buyers all look a little bit different than they did six months ago. I don't know if there's a leading indicator that we've entered a new market or if this is a warning sign that all of this is going to fall off later. That's the difference. It's storytelling. And if you're an operator and you've not invested in your ability to become an amazing storyteller, you are missing out. And you can get those skills from your sales leaders, your sales enablement teams, you can get that from product teams. There's a lot of different places you can go. But be a storyteller and it's laddering up the why. So you look at it and you say, what is this telling me and why? Okay, peel back layer. What is this telling me and why? Peel back a layer. And it's just, you're constantly digging and then it's, it's comparing against do I have an apples to apples? But it's also being careful about your denominator. It's hard to tell a story when you have two characters. Right? That's a pretty flat story. And so if you look at it and you're saying all of our, all of our all of our opportunities are worth $150,000. We should model all of our future revenue forecasts on 150k deals. Are they really $150,000 opportunities, or do you have two that are $150,000 and you just, you know, you've just built your sales team and that's a false flag that that's where you're going. And I could keep pulling that thread, but the point is, you come to the table as a storyteller, you really get curious about what you're looking at. Always make sure that the quality is good. Everybody's going to scream about dirty data. You can do a lot with dirty data, too. Just got to dig a little deeper. And then do you have enough evidence to say that this is real, or is this an indicator of where we're going to go and we're going to keep an eye on it? And so it's just figuring out how to be that. That partner. And you're not just chucking reports out there and you're just looking for the outliers and you're doing these pretty basic things to make sure you've got. You've got something interesting to share.

Yeah. Now, I love. I was. While you're talking, I was looking around somewhere on the right now I have a book that's literally called Storytelling with Data. And I'm trying it because it was. It was something where, like, how to communicate data in a story and how to craft it. And I love the way that you put up, like, you know, the what and the why. The what and the why and kind of communicating, connecting those dots. But where this brought me as I'm listening, though, is like, how do you make sure for your teams that they also stay close to reality? Because the flip side also happens sometimes, right? Where I go to Revops and I'm telling them how to do their job and they're like, yo, Katie, stop it. The flip side also comes sometimes where Revops is telling sales or CS or marketing how to do their job without being connected to reality, right? Where it's like, hey, yeah, actually, if we just, you know, double our acv, we'll be fine.

Oh, did you know if you just close a deal, we'll make more money?

Oh, that's all I have to do, right? Like, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

We built this into the model. We just lifted ACV by 30% because that will get us on pace. So, like, how do you make sure that Revops and Biz Ops are staying also connected to reality? Like, and I'll share this real quick story and then let you go on to it. But like, one of the things I would have my ops team do at least once a quarter was the goal. Sometimes it would slip because they get busy. Shadow two of my reps because you'll see things that go, wait, your. Your team is using it like this. Your team is like. So I loved getting them in the trenches sometimes just to watch because they were going to find some things. But like, what did you do for your teams to like, keep them connected to reality, right? Where it's like, okay, this is the realness that's happening.

It's empathy building. And I was laughing. I was wondering if you'd get there. It's. Everybody thinks everyone else's job is easier. I don't know if it's a human nature. There's probably some psychology there. But if you're not in those calls, you know, sideline coaching, right? Like, anybody can sit on the sideline and say, how did you miss that shot? It feels so easy. But when you're in those shoes, it's hard. And so you got to build that empathy. And so we, I mean, there's. You can use your conversation intelligence tools. You can kind of get snippets along the way. But I also encourage the ride alongs like you mentioned, like join a call, try to explain a contract to someone. Does it make sense to you? If not, let's change it. And you can do that across the organization. And I would actually challenge anybody who's listening. If you haven't done this with every team, even not just the ones that are beside you, you can learn a lot that you didn't realize. And to do it, to go in and just listen with no agenda. So I always, I kind of have this, this framework that I use, which is if you're gonna figure out what someone's doing, flatter them first. Katie, you are so good at hosting podcasts. You make me feel so comfortable. I'm gonna ask you the next question. How did you get so good at this? You'll probably tell me a great story. Why do you do it the way you do? You're going to sprinkle in these things that maybe you didn't even know you were doing. Well, I do it this way because I read a bunch of books that told me that this is how you get the best conversation from someone. Then you ask them, how can I borrow some of the things that make you great? So if I'm talking to a salesperson the way I Prep for all of my calls is I look at the last three things they posted on LinkedIn and then I try to find them on social media to see if there's something they're interested in. And then I use that to create great rapport. Okay. Now, as an operator, I'm going to start thinking, if that's really working for my top seller, is there a piece of that I can replicate across the board for everyone? Right. I've learned something new. I've built some empathy. I've figured out someone's secret sauce. Now how can I start to sprinkle that out? And I've gone a little bit away from your topic, but building empathy is what makes someone amazing at their job versus good at their job. And so how do you connect back to the reality? Right. That's how we got here. You connect back to the reality to say, if I were in their shoes, could I do it that way? And it's kind of going like, it's watching to see something in action and being willing to be wrong as well. I think we're all so excited to introduce something and have it land that our ego gets attached to it. And so it's iterating in pieces and being willing to be wrong and figuring out is theoretical or is this actually happening? So I don't know how much that's answered the question, but it's, it's actually taking a step out of your role and watching something in practice and then being willing to say, oops, that didn't quite work. But what did we learn? Take the learning, put it on the shelf, do something else. Maybe you'll come back to it.

No, I mean, I think it definitely gets there. Right. Because one, you're encouraging. Have a conversation or, like, have a. Like, you want to understand where you can help have a conversation, ask questions. But I like the way that you framed it too. Just not like, why do you do it like that? I don't know. This is the way I've been doing it. Right. Do you have a solution? But, like, more from a curious aspect, which I really, I really like, because my favorite OP story, I tell this all the time, is I once sat in an ops meeting where they had run some data and they presented me a list of like 5,000 leads that they were positive would close at over 70%. And I said, time out, time out, time out. These leads, These leads, meaning I'm going to book all of them and close 70% of them. They're like, yep, we ran it through. These are going to close at 70%. I was like, y', all, either we're about to be billionaires or there's something massively off with your model right now. Because no lead closes at 70%. And there was just a disconnect from reality. They had not run it by anybody. They had not sat down with anyone to discuss it.

And.

And then they're making a recommendation based off something that was not close to reality. And I think, like, having that. Cause I met. I met with Ops bi weekly. Like every two weeks, I sat down and met with them. And my favorite question to Ops is, what is my sales team bringing to you that I don't know about?

Ooh, okay.

Because you reps are going to Ops all the time, right? Of like, hey, could you build this or you could fix this? And I wouldn't even know because of course they're not submitting a ticket either. Cause that's a whole nother topic. Just have no idea. And I'm like, wait, they're asking for. No, you stop. You stop doing that. Like, that's not where I want your time. So now as we start to get like close to the end here, so we've talked about, it should be strategy, providing insights, getting in the trenches, telling stories with the data. Where should companies start? And I think you have your three buckets. You have like early. You have growth and you have some late stage. Like, could we look at, you know, if you went into an early stage, like it's. It's baby, right? It's brand new. What would you start with? You work with a mid level. Like, they're going. They got some people in there. What would you start with? Or you step into some larger companies who, by the way, even in these large companies, as you well know, ops is not always that strong in there. So it's kind of break down how you like, where you would start, what you'd look for, what you'd optimize based off the different levels.

Early stage, you are optimizing for someone who is. For someone's. You have to be really curious. Nothing will kill morale across the team faster than this is how you should do it. Because I said so. And so your early teams and your early. And that's across the board. That's any role really. But especially in operations, because you as an operator are enabling the resources in your company to work better, faster, smarter. And if I can't do that through the art of persuasion, I am failing at my job. So your early operators should really be empowered to see the reality Right. Because wouldn't we love 70% of leads to all close? That may not be how it works. And so your first hire should be hopefully someone who's seen some other pieces of companies before so they can bring in some context into their role. And that's what's going to help you from falling into the trap of theory. The other piece is in those early hires give them as much visibility into the full lifecycle as possible. The more that you are building a customer centric experience, the better your results are on the other side. Nothing, nothing crushes a prospect soul faster than having to tell their story 10 times presale, post sale, etc. If you want to slow down your pipeline, ask them the same question ten times guaranteed. And so the early hire, I love a generalist to start, right. I actually love being the first hire because then I can kind of figure out like where are the gaps. And I've done this a couple of times and so last few times I've built, I'll start as the first hire. I understand where the squeakiest wheels are. I'll understand where the biggest opportunities are to maximize output generally. Next up is some sort of like systems admin behind the scenes wizard to kind of make the magic happen. I come up with all these grand ideas, I've sourced them across the teams and now let's actually get someone that's behind the scenes making it work. Then when you start realizing that that person is speaking multiple languages, you start burying them in code. Switching, that's when you start to bring in new headcount. So at that point we had, when I joined we were about in the most recent organization, we were about Force 4 full time sellers. The team had grown to somewhere in the neighborhood of 28 years. That was when it was time to bring in a dedicated sales operations. Right. Because I was spending my time where I was like switching my language 15 times out the day and I wasn't being effective. So you kind of just follow the growth of the organization then fast follow to a csops person because we had a really heavy implementation and we have a lot of work post sale to fulfill the dream and so you kind of grow with the company. So moving forward. So your first hire should be generalists that understand like where to deploy fastest. Then you enter this nice little teenage years where you're still learning, you're still figuring it out, but there's opportunities to specialize. This is where you put people in that are good at their craft but have high ceilings. So the person that's in there today as a systems admin can grow into a sales operator because they've mastered the craft of what they're doing. And then they can grow into revenue operator because now they're starting to see the full file. That is a really cool stage because you have data to work with, you have experience, you've got people that are really specialized. But please, please, please, when you hit this stage, so centralize your operators either through a reporting structure, either they roll up through a biz ops team, some other team, they're not within a silo of an actual team. And if they are in a silo, you make sure they have this ops excellence core, right? They should feel like one team. So again, you're mapping your operations to the experience of the customer flow and the experience of like how the organization works. So centralize, centralize, centralize your operations either through reporting structure or, or through some sort of uniting function. Then you get into your big company and big company is fun because you have data to tell really big stories with. Your change management is really, you have to be really thoughtful. We're in a small company, you got 10 sellers, you need a new process, it's out by Monday. You need a new process, it's out by Thursday. Because you're just, it's easy. Change management is big deal. So you have to be really thoughtful, you have to build it out and you have to tell a really compelling story and you have to make sure that you're not doing too much because if you do too much, everybody's going to start doing different things. So that's when you start to get really specialized. And that's where you bring in folks that are mild, deep, inch wide versus your early stage, are mile wide, inch deep. Right? Like they can do a little bit of everything, but as the needs grow, they start to hand it off. At a big company, you're going to get really specialized and you're going to learn this function really, really well. And so it's a really cool skill set and people can pivot across the three. But it's just really making sure that you're supporting the team in the best way possible and you're making choices that support those around you. And you're not getting buried with 50% completion of 500 things.

Because also as a VP of Sales, I'll ask for a bunch of stuff and then totally forget about it and be like, oh, now I need you to do this. And oh, now I need you to do this.

Tiny object syndrome.

You know, we're a Special group of sales leaders. We're a special group, so we need.

You and you need us. It all works out.

So before we wrap, I got two questions left for you. The first one, just like, so, like, what would be like that parting tip? So like, when you think about how to truly like, do rev ops biz ops, well, what would be that big, you know, tip? And actually I'm gonna split this into two. I want you to talk to the sales leader. What would be your biggest tip to them on, like, how to really leverage RevOps biz ops and then also to biz ops revops, what would be your biggest tip to them on how to have the biggest impact on the teams they support.

So my biggest tip to the sales side, the sales leaders in particular, be get really comfortable dumping all of your problems on the table and letting your operators help you figure out how to attack them. If you come to me with these one offs, I may not be able to pick up on the themes and I may not be able to support you. You give me all 15 of your problems at once, I'll show you that three of them are actually the same thing. It can be solved overnight. And these other 12 could be hit in this order, right? Like, come to me as a partner to help sort through the madness and give you answers that you didn't even know were possible. On the rev up side, one, start by recognizing sales is really freaking hard. Come to the table with empathy and understand that the reason they're asking for these things is because they're trying to be better. And so how can you wow them? How can you create an amazing experience that turns them into the people that come to you and say, help I trust you. Help me. And it's by being really transparent with the why is behind what you're doing. I think so often operators, we tend to be, we tend to think that every thinks like us and they don't. And so it's coming to the table and saying, I'm doing this because it will give us the data to rework our whole system. I'm asking you to do this because it is proven to have this outcome rather than like, because I said so. And so it's getting into this habit of really getting people on board and selling them internally. So in turn, we're all kind of beating to the same, the same drum.

I love that. Selling internally, right? Like, that was something I worked with my rev ops team and ops team a lot was like, hey, like, don't just walk into the media going, okay, so we need you to do. I was like, no, how do they benefit from this? What's the story behind it? Like, what's the impact? What does this prevent from them having to do down the road, right? Like you got to sell the concept and sell the I the idea. So I love it. Okay, last question, right? Because the name of this podcast is Live better Sell Better this weird idea. Like maybe if we took better care of ourselves, maybe if we had more energy or joy or fulfillment in life that sales operations improve because of that. What would your live better advice be for people listening.

Live Better. Oh my goodness, so many. I am on a big emotional intelligence kick right now. It's something I invested in last year in earnest. And what that has done is it's given especially in a virtual world. We can read so much into interactions now that you didn't in an in person world. And your slack. To me that says you there could mean 500 things. And the more I invested in emotional intelligence, the more I was able to interact with the world in a way that was a little more even keeled, a little more thoughtful. And so I've got a whole bunch of resources. I can send them in your way. But that is my, that's my live better advice. And it's, it's understanding how you engage with the world around you and it makes you ask more thoughtful questions. It makes you not fall back on these knee jerk responses to things. It just makes you a more like curious person overall. And then you can also, when you close your laptop at the end of the day, walk away and be that much more present in the rest of your life. Because work is a piece of us. It's an important piece. I take a lot of pride in my work. I love what I do. But it's a piece and it helps you zoom out and see this is how it fits in to my overall life. It doesn't define it, but it does add to it. So anyways, it gives a lot of context. So my advice is actually a big one. It's not. You can also just go for walks. If you want to take the easy one, go for a stinking walk. But the big one is really think about your emotional intelligence and invest there. It pays back.

I love it. I love it. It does. The carryover is just immense in all aspects. Relationships, parenting, work, just self worth and all that. So I love that. Rachel, where can people get more of you? Where can they follow you? Where can they connect with you? Where are you putting out content? Where are you going to be on stage. Where can people get more Rachel in their lives?

Yes, I. My, my. My voice is mostly on LinkedIn these days, so I've been posting a lot more there. I'm working on creating some more content behind the scenes and you can find me at just kind of. I love having these conversations. Podcasts are kind of my thing this year. It's been so much fun to have great conversations with folks and yeah, keep an. Keep an eye out. I always post LinkedIn what we're up to, and then if you don't already have your community spaces, find them. You'll see me in a few of them. That's how you can find your people and people like me and people like Katie. And that's what can really help you level up your space and your career. Surround yourself with good people and good stuff follows.

Hell yes. That's another live. That's another live. Better. You're still dropping gems on us right now. Awesome. Rachel, this was phenomenal. Thank you so much for your time, energy and insights. This was great.

Appreciate it. Take care.