N.E.A.T Selling with Richard Harris

Every company has breakdowns in their revenue process. Sure thing. Deals slip into next quarter, competitors creep in and swipe deals away at the last minute, and deals getting single threaded that don't get to power. These are just a few examples of revenue leak, but there are a ton more and they're preventing your team from reaching their sales targets. That's why I'm such a big fan of Clary's Revenue platform is the only tool that actually helps leaders take control of their revenue and thrive through any market conditions, especially when things get tough. You can't afford to miss a single detail, but you also can't be leading by gut. Clary combines the science and the art of sales and sales leadership. So go to clary.com if you want to answer the most important question in your business. Are you going to meet, beat or Miss on revenue? Welcome to the live Better Sell Better podcast with your host Kevin Dorsey of Inside Sales Excellence, the number one Patreon group and YouTube channel for tech sellers and tech sales leaders where we dive in deep for tactical advice on how to book more meetings with close more deals faster and lead sales teams to success. But we don't stop there. We also focus on the person in salesperson. We talk about mindset goals, time management and so much more. So thank you for listening and if you're interested, head on over to patreon.com InsideSalesExcellence now with that, grab a notepad, get ready and let's dive into the good stuff. Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of the live Better Sell Better podcast. This is your host Kevin Dorsey, AKA kd, and I hope you are ready to learn today because we are diving into closing revenue, how to run better demos and how to bring more deals across the line. And I'm so excited because I have not only one of the best in the game at this, but also a good friend of mine, Richard Harris, to talk to us about his neat selling method, how so many sellers over complicate their methodology and how to learn how to ask the right questions. And so the reason why I brought Richard on the show is because if you're having a closing problem, Richard's the guy you call Richard's the guy that companies call to audit their process, to fix their process and then build it out for repeatable results. This isn't a flash in the plan or flash in the pan type methodology. Right? He's been leading coaching sales teams for well over a decade and what he gets better than most is that questions drive the sale and he actually teaches people how to earn the right to ask questions. His neat selling process, which he's going to walk us through, has been shown to increase close rates significantly. And he's here to share it with us today. Richard, welcome to the show.

Wow, man. That is a very long windup. And I'm super happy to be here. And I got to tell you, for those who don't know this, KD's voice here is exactly like it's like in real life. Like, there's no, like, radio voice for kd. If you have a conversation at the bar with kd, this is exactly how he sounds. And it's smooth, man. I love it. So I'm jealous of it.

Hey, I try, man. Like, if I can just be me, because I can only I don't have a good enough memory to change too much. Like, I have to just be me all the time.

Totally agree.

So cool, man. Well, we're gonna dive right into this. Cause this is what I promised people on this show. No fluff, all action. So let's get to this. Right out the gate. What is your neat selling method? What is it? What does it stand for?

Yeah, it's super simple, right? It stands for need. Then clarifying the economic impact of that need, as our friend Rob Jepson likes to say. He wants to dollarize it. How do we put a number to it then in sales, it's no longer about authority. It's about access to authority. And what level of access do you have? Because so many times right now, even on an inbound lead, you don't get to authority until it's well into stage three or four, right? And even then, you may never talk to the actual signer until the contract sent for redlines. So understanding where you are in the access to authority. Does this person have access? Can this person get you a meeting with the Pope, as I like to say? And that's what A stands for. And then T, of course, timeline. You got to understand where you are in the timeline. And most importantly, not what is their timeline, but what happens if they don't meet that timeline that they gave you, if they don't have a real pain there. Your timelines really align in the sand at best. So those are the basic symbols. Need economic impact, access to authority, timeline.

And it's funny, everyone. So the E is what I think got Richard onto my radar a while back, because he was the first person that I saw actually talk economic impact. Everyone loved to talk impact or pain or all that he actually.

Economic.

I was like, yes, finally. Like someone's actually talking about how this actually works as a buyer. So, so let's, let's dive into this. Let's start with the end need. How do you establish need?

Well, I don't think that you do. I think the key is, is that you have to determine if there is a need, right? And you can do that. You know, inbound is different than outbound, which we know it's probably a little bit easier to try to identify need on an inbound place than outbound. But what you really have to do is you have to Persona eyes the pain, right? Meaning if you're the CRO, if I'm selling sales training, which is what I do, and I'm talking to the CRO, what is their pain and then what is that pain like for the sales manager or the sales rep, right. And I've got a great question on how you get to that pain, whether it's inbound or outbound. And that's what you're trying to do. And you have to. And I think we all know this, but I'll repeat it is we kind of have to get them to say it out loud, right? If I say it, it's sold. If they say it, it's gold, right? Like that old cliche, I gotta get them to say it in a non manipulative way. I don't want anybody to ever try and manipulate anybody. And that's the most important thing. We're not here to trick people ever. So that's what need means to me. And you have to understand where it is in the relationship to who you're talking to and who's going to be deciding, right? And it's a really important thing. And the one thing I do want to say about neat real quick because I didn't bring it up earlier, just real quick, is that it's neat simply because that's the letters I came up with. And it was easy to trademark like there was nothing. You don't what's different, or at least what I say is different, is you don't always start with need, right? You don't always have to start there. You can start wherever the customer wants to start, right? Sometimes Kevin will say, well, I'm actually doing this because my boss told me, well, all of a sudden I'm starting at access to authority. Do I need to drill down there? I don't know. Depends on the conversation. Sometimes someone will say, hey Richard, you know what? We just missed our quarter number. Okay, well now we're talking about impact and need, right? So Just because it's neat doesn't mean it has to follow that order. So I just want to make sure people are clarified around that. But anyway, that's need.

That's a strong call out there because a lot of people do think it has to work in order. If you talk about spin, if you talk about medic, if you talk about band reps, just think it's linear. You just work down this list of questions. So I'm glad you called that out. So I guess two follow up questions on need, the first one, and this one always kind of gets people to pick a side. Do you believe you can create a need? Right. So this is more on the outbound side a little bit, right. Where you're calling in and whatever. Like, can you create a need? Like, is that something you can actually create in someone?

I think there's a unique way to do it. There's a way. I'll explain the approach. I think you're not trying to create the need in someone. You're trying to create the conversation around need and then decide if they actually have it or have them decide it. Like, you're not gonna create need. Right. They either have the pain or they don't. And to some extent they have it, but they may have a whole bunch of other pains first. Right. It just may be the way it is. Right. I've talked to plenty of people who are like, hey, Richard, we wanna hire a sales trainer. I'm like, how many reps do you have? Two, but we're hiring for 10. Okay, well, you don't need a trainer yet, right? Like, you can go use. I mean, I will train you, but it's not economically. It's not a smart decision. Right. Go use my online portal or whatever. So that's that piece. What was the other part of the question? Because this is that part where I show my age.

No, so it was kind of like, you know, when can you create it? And if you can't create it, like, you know, how do you, I guess maybe make them aware of it? You said you had some questions that helped you kind of make people aware. So maybe that's where we go next.

Yeah, I think what I, and I've never said this before, so I'm glad you asked, is that I think we're trying to generate a conversation around me, and then based on that conversation, we can determine if there really is need. Right. We have to generate that conversation. So from an outbound perspective, one of my favorite techniques is called the interview technique, where you use this Almost a little bit like a market research tool. But I could email or LinkedIn Kevin, and I could specifically say, hey, Kevin, I know you're over at Patient Pop. I'd love to ask you some questions and interview you about this particular topic. And then I would literally, and I literally say this. I'm not going to pitch you, I promise. I just want to understand your viewpoint on these particular things they happen to be. And they will of course be how Kevin sees this need in relation to what I do. So then I can get on the phone with Kevin if he says yes, and I'll say, hey, Kevin, thank you, really appreciate your time. I promise I'm not going to pitch you. I'm not going to ask you some questions. If at some point you want me to give you context of where this is coming from, I will. But again, I don't want it to sound like a pitch. So I sort of told Kevin like three or four times I want to have this conversation and that if ever I talk about myself, it's not because I'm pitching Kevin, it's because I'm trying to learn what ends up happening in this process. Is one, understanding the humanity and psychology of sales is that oftentimes someone, well, it strokes their ego. They're like, wow, someone sees me as a thought leader. Someone sees me as, you know, I can add value to them. You know, sometimes I could even, you know, you could say, hey, Kevin, I don't know anything about your industry. Can I interview you? Because I'm selling into it, but I'm not pitching you, right? Kevin might be like, all right, cool. So you then can get on the phone and you can start asking these questions, right? You can say, so how do you see this, Katie? How do you handle this problem currently? If you could change how you handled it and time wasn't an issue and money wasn't an issue, how important would it be? What do you think other people like you think about this pain? And what ends up happening is you get a ton of like literally end user research that you can either then use with somebody else. In another cold call aspect, you could certainly share it with marketing or product marketing if you want, even though that's not SDR's job or Navy's job. But you could. And so you get all this information. But what also happens is this rule of reciprocity occurs. The rule of reciprocity basically means is that as humans, we like to return good deeds. So I've done a good deed for kd, right? Whether he knows it or not, he's going to be like, wow, this person thinks highly of me. I've complimented them. I put them on this nice, expert pedestal. And oftentimes KD will turn around and go, hey, man. Particularly someone like kd, because I know you would say, hey, man, this has been really great. I appreciate it. Tell me more about what you do. He might feel obligated to now understand what you do. And you say, whoa, hold on, Katie, I will tell you, but I'm not pitching you. I promise. Like I pinky promised that I would not pitch you right. And Katie's gonna lean in hard and go, no, no, no, it's okay. It's okay. That doesn't happen all the time. And that's okay. If it doesn't happen, I don't want you to do it as a manipulation thing because you got so much quality research from the person you need to talk to that you can then parlay that into other outbound metrics and other outbound activities, or even in sales conversations or inbound leads of like, hey, I was talking to this guy kd, and you know, he said, this is a challenge. How he sees it? Do you see it that way? And now you're able to have this sort of comfortable, casual dialogue. So that's called the interview technique. I did not create this technique just so everybody knows. I'm not going to own it. But it's a fantastic technique, and it. And it helps you get more. From an outbound perspective, I've seen people get. If you send 10 of them, you usually get two or three people to say yes, which is from an outbound perspective. It's like, holy cow, that's great. And particularly now, I think this might feel manipulative, but that's not the intent. Is that just the current world situation we're in right now, whether it's Covid, social injustice, all these things, I think people are wanting to help people. People are wanting to give back in any way they can. And so this technique also works you very favorably. I think it's been working for years, by the way. You don't need a crisis to use it.

No. So then, do you have long answer?

Sorry.

It's all good. So do you have like a. Let's flip it to the inbound, right? Like, how do you quickly establish a need? Like, do you have a couple go to questions of, like, how so. Because that's what we're trying to go for, too, right? It's like people can walk away and it's like, okay, That's a good tactic I can use. How can you quickly establish needs? Someone either agreed to the interview or they inbounded. What are a couple of those questions you can ask?

So there's a couple things before you can ask the questions. You got to earn the right.

Yes, you're right.

And so I teach a thing called a respect contract, confirming time goals, potential outcomes. Getting a contract that says, hey, look, if it's not the right fit, we're both going to say so. And then. And a lot of people call it the upfront contract from Sandler. I just don't particularly care for how they leverage that name, but it's okay. Like, it's not bad. And then I have what I call the transition statement, which I think they leave out and say, it's been so long since I read anything from them. And they're good, by the way. For anybody who's a Sandler person, I do not discount them. They're great. It can work. It's a little dated, but it's still a valuable tool. But I have a transition statement. That transition statement is specifically an open ended question. So you have to understand this. So no matter what anybody says. Right. I run through my, hey, KD, you got 30 minutes. That still work hard Stops. No.

Great.

Well, at 25 minutes, I'm going to call a timeout so we can determine where we go. Purpose of this call is fact finding. And just get a frame of reference. If you feel like it's not the right fit, let me know, I'll let you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, Katie, you know, aside from what you put in the form where you said, you know, you have a team of SD10 SDRs and you want sales and you want training for them. What's really driving the conversation? So now I've done my respect contract, I've earned the right to ask these questions. And my very first question is very high level, open ended. And no matter what they've said on an inbound, no matter what they say on an outbound, what makes you want to have this conversation today? And now Kevin will go into. And it's funny because this is what most people go into. They don't even answer the question. What they really go into is, well, just so you have the backstory, I've been here four years and I was brought in to do this, and I was brought in. It's like none of that. Me, I'm okay with it. Like, that's them warming themselves up and me being an active listener and paying Attention because maybe there's something in that four year story I could use to connect with them and bond and go, oh, I did that too once or something. So that first question is that one question of what made you want to have this conversation today? Believe me, everything people say is a vague buzzword. I get people, Richard. I got an inside team. They're SDRs and they need help with better qualifying and discovery. Great. But I need to go, hey, Katie, what's qualifying and discovery mean for you? Because it means something different everywhere, open ended. And now I can get KD to stop using buzzwords and start talking about use cases. And so my goal through this entire neat process is to get them to explain the use case around the potential pain. Sometimes I have to say, hey, kd, like even in that interview process, kd, I talk to people like you all the time. This is what they're telling me their challenges are. I'm curious, one, do you agree? And two, how do you tackle them? And if you, I guess there's a third question if you don't, what are the challenges? And I would probably even go so far, say, Katie, please, I'm not asking you what keeps you up at night. I don't care what keeps you up at night. I want to know what real pain you have, right?

Yeah.

And, and you, you build that instant, real connection.

And what I love about that, actually, real quick, just, I love about that when you lead with some of those like, problems, it helps establish you as an authority, right? When you say, hey, like other VPs are struggling with this, does that sound like your world or not too? It shows that you know the industry, right? Like, because I can't stand it when I get those open ended, like SDR questions of like, you know, so what's your struggles right now? Like, how many hours do you have?

So this is what I call it, using the lost child tone. I'm big on pace and tone, right? I may know that mommy and daddy are somewhere in the store, but I'm freaked out right now. And so part of it has to do with tonality, not just the question. And so I always ask like a little bit like a lost child, like, or I'm curious about. I've heard this, but I don't think I understand it. And so to Kevin's point, you know, it's interesting because I don't try to position myself as knowing something about the industry. I'm trying to position myself the opposite, which is I don't know shit. So tell me, right? Let me Let me put KD in charge. And when you do that, KD is going to go off.

And I call it loss in the city. So I think it's fun that we both have the loss tonality. So, okay, so let's move to the next part of this. So we've established level of need, right? We've gotten these questions out. They're kind of talking about their problems and pain points. Let's move to this E. Economic impact. I mean, that's gold. How do you do that?

So it's different than roi, which is what people like to talk about. I specifically don't use the phrase ROI because I think everybody has an instant angst against it and they put up a lot of defensiveness because they don't believe roi. Again, quoting Rob Jepsen. They only believe the I. They never believe the R. They never think that the R is real. So I have to show it to them and I have to make them break it down. So I have to know specifically what's the use case that they're trying to solve for? What's the need? Right. And way beyond saving time and money. That's not it. Right. You're going to get to that point. But then I got to go, hey, Katie, if we solve this problem, does that make it easier for you to get to some other things that need to get done? And Katie, the answer is always yes. Great. What are those kinds of things? KD's got to tell them to me. KD, what are they worth to your organization for you to accomplish them? Two weeks faster, three weeks faster. Right. And that becomes economic impact, and then it becomes lifetime value of that revenue. Right? So that's where I'm trying to get to. So when I have this conversation, and again, it's around training, you know, please, if you're a sales rep, stop saying, look, you only need to close one or two deals to pay for our solution. Okay? Your buyer doesn't think that way. Your buyer thinks that if they're going to spend 10,000 on you, they need to get at least 100,000 back. They need a 10x return because they got overhead and they got employees and they got healthcare costs like 10. You can't. It's not dollar for dollar. Right? And so you have to be able to explain that. And so in my world, it's really important that I ask my customers, what's your average sales cycle? What's your ARR from that customer? And what's the LTV of that customer? Right. What's the lifetime Value, do they stick for two years, three years, four years? Right. That LTV is what matters. So if it's $10,000 a year, but the LTV is four years, well, that's a $40,000 solution on a 10,000 do. If you've got a team of 10, I'm not there to help one person close a deal. I'm not there to help each person close one more deal. I'm here there to help each of your customers, each of your team close 10 or 20 more deals right now. And the lifetime value of that revenue is how you compare against the cost. So that's what economic impact means in my world. Right. So there's this direct economic impact, and then if I can get that done, what other projects can you get done or can your team get done? They are. And then what is the value of those projects coming to fruition? That's what economic impact means.

So, you know, selling into the sales, like, some people might be listening, like, well, you're selling into sales. That could make it simpler. Like, how do you help? Like, how do you say I'm selling? Trying to think of it like, say I'm selling like a. Like an HR tool, right? Like, not with recruiting, but it's like something with, you know, internal communications, internal comms, things like that. And you ask that question, you say like, so, you know, what would this be worth to you? And they don't know, right? They kind of go, well, I'm not sure. I've never done this before. How do you guide someone through that?

So then you're in an evangelical sale and you're teaching someone how to buy your product, right? So it's a slightly different mindset, but you're going to do the same techniques. So for me, I would be like, hey, kd, this is what people have told us we've helped them with. Just out of curiosity, are those. Do those. How well do they resonate with you? Not do they resonate, but how well? Because sometimes people will pick the wrong thing, right? And you're using multiple choice questions, right? This is, you know, back to your sat. I mean, a little. I mean, I guess this is a 1987 SAT to date ourselves. But you're using multiple choice questions. How you know, which of these things are we trying to help you solve? Well, how much time do you spend on those? Right? What, by spending time. Just in general terms, by spending time on this, what aren't you able to get to? One of my favorite questions to ask people is to say, look, Katie, I'D be willing to bet you got about 16 things on your to do list. Correct? Correct. Right. And so what's not getting done? Because of this one particular problem we're talking about. And Katie is going to give me two or three things, you know, because they're going to be in priority. They're listed 1 through 16. Right. They're not random. It's like, okay, so now, Katie, as you have these struggles around this HR function from your perspective, because I don't know your world. I don't know your world deep enough. Kd, our customers tell us this can save them a certain amount of time or drive a certain level of profitability. Is that fair for you? Or am I off base? And I have to get Katie to say beyond, Yes, I have to say, great, well, how much time would this save you, Katie? Okay, if I can save you half of that time, right, could you get to these other projects faster? And what would that mean for you and your organization if you could get to one or two of those things just a little bit faster? Now you're making them.

You just said something I've never heard anyone else say before, and I don't even know if you caught it, but this was gold. You asked the question, you said, what are the other two to three things that you could get to? And you said, their answers will be in priority. And I love that. Meaning the first thing they say is probably the most important because it's the thing that pops into their. Their head. Is that what you're. You're saying there?

I think it's. It's built on their current priority.

Well, that's what I'm saying, though, because a lot of sales reps, they'll say, like, you know, what's your top priority? And it feels slimy and sleazy and whatever everybody says, right? But when you say, like, what are, you know, your top two to three, that first, like, I. That's gold because it's. I've never thought about it that way. The first. First thing they say is probably the one that's most painful. It may not be the biggest impact, but it's the one that's most painful in their.

It's the one they're feeling the most pressure around.

Right.

So one of the reasons I asked that question, though, is because sometimes I think they have their own priorities out of whack. And so if I can get them to name two or three, I could say, well, hey, you said this, and this is not my job or my role. And again, it's different for me, right. Because I am a sales leader selling to salespeople. And so teaching prioritization is kind of part of it. But you can say, hey, you said this and this. What makes that a priority over this? Because just as an outsider, this priority of fixing something in your HR process feels like it has way more pain, even though you have it as number three versus number one. So now I'm actually trying to get them to think harder and deeper about their own world. Because at some point they could be like, yeah, you're right. But you know what? My boss says I have a deadline. Great. Yep. Gotta do what the boss says. Right? Other times, people will be like, ah, man, I never thought about it. Thanks. Thanks. So now all of a sudden, I've done them a favor.

I love that.

I've given them. I've given them a gift. The rule of reciprocity kicks in. That rule doesn't mean they're going to give me a gift back of purchasing. It means the gift they're gonna give back is they're just gonna start talking to me even more honestly, like, I'm gaining trust, right? I'm getting them to fall in trust with me. Not love me, but fall in trust with me.

Ooh, that's good. That's so good. Because the trust is everything through this process. Because they don't trust you, they won't buy. And also, too, by the way, all you want to be challenger sellers out there, that's actually what challenger selling is. It's through questions, not through confrontation. And a lot of people get that wrong because they feel like they have to challenge the status quo and confront. He asked a question that led to a different way of thinking.

Well, that's. And that's my whole thing is my neat selling. People have said, is it a process or is it methodology? And I've specifically said, it's whatever you want it to be. Right. I've got plenty of clients. Hey, like Richard, you know, we follow medic or medpic or Bant or. Or Challenger or Spin. I'm like, great. Well, in all those aspects, you still got neat. And so it becomes a compliment to those. I'm not the guy to tell you to walk in and rip and replace. Right? That's the biggest mistake I see happening all the time. And Katie, you can tell me is the new sales leader comes in, the new CRO is, you know what they want to do? They want to rip and replace it. And it's like, why? Like, I asked that question. Like, that's not going to solve the problem. The problem is what's in there now and what aren't you getting to manipulate it. You need to audit your process before you rip and replace. And it's the egos of these sales leaders who think mine's the best. And it's like, no, you know what, it's not that you're not teaching people how to tactically ask these questions. It is so tactical that it doesn't matter. The process, yes. Choose a process, have a process, be mindful to your customers in the buyer journey. But ultimately it comes down to asking questions and can you do it in a, in a sincere, authentic way that's not cheesy, that doesn't sound like everybody else. That sounds like Katie versus Richard and all that stuff.

Yeah, well, I mean, you know this. You talk to them, they talk to me too. They're like, what methodology should I use? My first question back right now is what are they doing? Are they even following your methodology? Hey, we've been on Sandler for a while. Doesn't seem to be working. We're thinking about switching to challengers. Like, are they actually following Sandler? They're not. Yeah, of course they're not. Like, because if they were like, you'd be. This would be a different conversation. So I think that actually is a good segue to kind of, oh, go ahead.

This is the pain, by the way, when I hear that the pain they're really trying to solve for is that our team isn't speaking the same language. And so we want to have them use the same language. Which is why I use things like, oh, well, is everybody using a respect contract? Does everybody know that the value of open ended questions is that it forces salespeople to shut up and be active listeners? That's the most important value and they never talk about that. Does everybody know what a multiple choice question is and why you use it? Does everybody know mirroring and labeling which has been around for eons since psychiatry and psychology have been around? That's why I get really tactical because to the point, whether you're challenger spin or anything else, it has nothing to do with the process. It has to do with the ability to execute. And that can be done in any process. Find one that works for you and your business. But ultimately it's not the process that's the problem for sure.

So then let's move to the next letter. Alright, so need. We've established it. Economic impact. We've done a good job of getting them to tell us. Right. And if they tell us, they believe it. Right. Versus all you sales reps. If you're telling me what the ROI of your product is going to be, it doesn't work because I don't believe you. Right, so Richard's pulling that out through the questions. Now let's get to time.

Right, well, the next word is access, but that's okay. But we don't have to follow that.

We don't have to. No, you're right. So access. No. So, you know, you're talking to me, maybe you're talking to one of my managers, right? And they're like, yeah, like, we need this. How do you now get access to authority? Because what's the study now? Like there's now 4.7 or 6.2 decision makers per, like contract now, like, so what's that next step? To gain access.

So. So I'm less concerned about gaining access to authority. I'm more concerned about Katie make being my champion.

Okay.

And part of getting to authority is I first need to get shortlisted before I get. Before I win the deal. That's my goal, right? If I got two minutes and I'm on the one yard line and I got to go 99 yards, there's a reason they run the draw play first because they just want a few extra steps so the quarterback can drop back and have room to pass on second and third down. I still don't understand why they do it, but that's just the way the game is played, right? I'm not a football guru, so access to authority is about trust because I got to build trust with KD so that he feels comfortable going to the authority figure. So this is what I say. I'll say, hey, kd, you know, you know, you know, I know you're looking at this and my guess is that, you know, you're sort of bring. You're sort of bringing the list to everybody. Right? Role play with me, buddy. Yep.

Now for sure.

And so, Katie, my guess then is as you bring this list forward, kind of all eyes are on you, Right?

Yeah. I've been the one tasked to kind of present this to the group.

Great. So here's the deal, Katie. I promise you, whether you choose me or not, no matter what, if you decide to take me forward, I will never do anything to make you look bad. I will not try to embarrass you. I will not try to be anything wonky. I want to make sure that you present your best thing forward. And if look, that's me, awesome. If not, then I hope I put some good karma in the world for both of us.

That sounds good.

Okay, so now I can say, so, kd, what does your boss need to see like you like this? I get it. Or at least I think you do. If you decide to take us forward, what are they looking for? You've told me what you're looking for, but what do you think they're going to say?

I think a lot of it's going to come down to cost. They're just going to ask me, like, how much does this cost?

Great. So normally when you have that conversation, we all know that it all comes down to value and props and all that stuff. But how does your boss like to have that positioned? Because I want to give you that piece of information so that, like I said, you need to look good so that rather than just walking in the door and say, hey, man, I just talked to this guy Richard, he's cool. It's only this, right? What does your boss need to see to actually see that? And I'll give it to you so that you look good.

Well, they really want to see everything we're getting, you know, like, all right, this is the price. Like what? Like, what am I getting? Right? Like, what's all included?

Okay, so here's what we'll do is this is what. And I'll start to explain. This is what you're getting, right? Here's, you know, here's, you know, what you're getting. Here's the onboarding, here's the coaching, here's the pre work that goes in ahead of time. And for me, I always, particularly if you're selling any type of service, even a software, as a service, it's often more about what are my pre installation, hours of support I'm getting and my post installation, when you put that in now, KD can go forward and say, hey, look, I've spoken to Richard. Here's what he's promising us for this price. And KD is probably going to go, I trust him. Or this, I think you need to talk to this guy like, I like him. I know it's your decision. So I'm building access through kd, right? And I'm doing it in a way that hopefully I'm establishing trust and building trust with KD in such a way that he wants to take me forward. And if he doesn't or if it doesn't align, well, yes, it's going to hurt. But then either, A, I did something wrong and I need to go figure that out for the next one. But Most importantly, I can get over it, move to the next deal. My goal of following neat is I want everybody to do and say everything that you can so you can at least walk away going, man, you know, of the hundred things I needed to do, I got 93 of them, not 73. Right. Like, that's what I want. So that's how I try to approach access, is to get that opinion of how, you know. Another good question around this is kd, as you go forward, how does your organization like to make these decisions? I want to, you know, there's five people involved in this. How do y' all normally make this decision? And I asked Katie, because I want to make sure you present it the right way, and I don't want you to look bad. So that's where I'm building that trust.

And as a buyer, I can tell everyone listening. Most sales reps don't do this. Like, as a buyer, like, and that's what, you know, a lot of sales people don't know what it's like to buy a software or a service. You guys are so busy selling it, you don't know what it's like to be a buyer and treats it this way.

Neither does the cfo, the CRO, the cmo, the founder. Nobody knows how to buy what you're selling. All they know how to do is commoditize you. All they want to do is go to the Best Buy website, pull up the three TVs, and click the compare button. And one of the reasons, again, another thing I say, is that people won't buy from you just because of what you do, but they'll do it based on how you do it.

Yeah.

So how I approach kd, how I try to navigate him through this decision, again, I'm not always going to win. That's okay. Like, I have to know that. But I know that I can put good karma out there. And I'll hear from Katie another day, I'll see him on LinkedIn and he'll like some profile. He'll. Somewhere, some way, we'll run into each other. Right. Like, that's the key.

And for everyone listening, right, like, it's having a long game mindset. Because oftentimes a lot of people actually don't know this about buying. Oftentimes, nothing gets bought. So, like, you might have not won the deal, but a lot of sales reps don't ever find out that we actually never made a purchase around it. If you treated me the right way and you educated me along the process, you're the person that's going to pop into my head when either I want to solve it the next time or. This is a great thing about champions. If they go somewhere else, you're the person that they think about and then they reach back out again and it starts a whole new cycle. So taking that how and educating is so, so important. So now we're almost there. Almost. We're to the finish line. We're at the two yard line. Timing, right?

How?

It's just two questions here, right? How do you establish a timeline or understand their timeline? Then the second part is urgency, right? You hear this all the time in sales, right? You got to create urgency. You got to create urgency. Can you actually create urgency? Right. So let's talk timeline, establishing it then that's also how can you potentially move things along faster?

Well, I mean, it's a fairly simple question, right? And I think we get afraid of it. Kind of like we get afraid of the budget question, which is to just say, when do you guys want to implement this? Right. Do you have it? Or to say, do you have an idea of when you want to implement this? Right. Great. What's driving that deadline? You simply just have to ask the question, right? When you ask these questions, here's the thing that people understand people. Every time you ask a question and every time someone talks, there's actually a picture in their head. The challenge is that between their brain and, and the 4 to 5 inches between their mouth, it gets lost, right? Like it really does. People don't buy the words, they buy the picture, they buy the image. And so you have to say, that's why you use when do you want to do this? It makes them think about a calendar.

Great.

What's making that the urgency? Right. What other, you know, hey, happy to work around that timeline. Is there anything that happens if you don't meet this deadline?

Right.

Maybe it's a security situation and you know, they have to hit it. Okay, well that's urgency. If there's not, the only other way you're going to drive urgency is through economic impact. You don't drive urgency from timeline, you drive urgency from economic impact. At some point, the number is so painful they have to do something, right. There's a difference between a sprained wrist and a broken wrist. A lot of times I talk to people and they got a sprained wrist, you know, I talk to them. I, you know, I put an ace bandage on it. Right. When you're ready, this is what you need to do, right? Or I put an ace bandage on it and help them realize that if you don't do something, you're going to break it soon.

I love that. One of the things I teach with follow up is even if you don't win the deal, providing things that they should look for moving forward. So you're not going to work with us. But here are things to pay attention to. Here are warning signs of when maybe it makes sense to get back in touch.

Yep. I also say this a lot, too much earlier in the cycles. I'll say, hey, Katie, you know, at some point I say this to almost everybody. Look, whether you decide to use me or not, please use me as a resource. I'm happy to answer questions. You know, again, in my world, because I DM selling sales training, there's lots of free advice that I probably give out. My 12 year old says I need to stop doing it. It's like, stop giving out free advice, charge people.

But.

But I've again, I've laid that groundwork of like, hey, you can contact me, it's okay. People don't always do it, but they, I've at least done my part to try and build as much trust as I can, right. And I can walk away going to bed at night, going, well, I did all I can do.

Right. So then we have neat in place. How do I close? Richard, just tell me how to close. I want to know how to close. I've done all these things.

Yeah, I get this all the time, right. Hey Richard, we need negotiation and closing training. I'm like, well, okay, let's talk about that. What makes you think you need that training? And they'll give me like, you know, I'll say, give me an example. They'll say, oh well, we had this one deal and such and such and such and such. And I said, well, what didn't you know? And they'll say, well, we didn't know this. I'm like, well then your problem isn't closing. Your problem is qualifying and discovery.

Yes, yes.

Closing is the easiest part of the deal. If you've done your job right, it doesn't mean it's less painful when you lose. Right. You know, you have to be, you know, there are five or six questions that you have to ask and you're foolish if you don't. Right. One is the competition question. Right. Because if you don't ask, you lose. Like, you know, you can't blame them. Like you didn't ask the question right now it's uncomfortable for a lot of people. Here's how I coach people that I will say, hey kd, just out of curiosity, you know, how's what we talk about compared to what you've seen in the marketplace? Kd, what does this look like in the marketplace? You know, I have my f bomb of feelings around pricing and how you ask about pricing. So if you're not asking the question, then you know, shame on you. Right. We know that there's competition, there's budget, there's decision making process. We know every step a buyer goes through this hogwash that the customer's already made the decision is just hogwash. Right? Maybe that's true in an inbound lead, maybe. Right. But they sure as hell aren't 60% of the way. Are you kidding? 60%, right. Maybe emotionally they're 60% of the way, but financially and committing to it, they're about 20% of the way way.

What I love about those studies is like, how did you measure that? Like what do you mean they were 64% of the way through the bot? Like what survey did people fill out that we believe that's the benchmark. Right. So it's funny because I didn't know how you're going to answer that question. I'm just so glad you answered that way because it is like closing. It's like it's closing is asking for the business. Which by the way, salespeople you have for the business, they're not going to.

Fall off the barstool.

So many reps. So that's what they do is they're waiting for me or you to say, okay, how do I buy? You put all the pressure on the buyer to say they want it versus putting it together and saying, well, this makes sense for you. Can we get this done? Can we get you started? Can we?

Like there's a couple of subtle ways too is to say, hey kd, based on this standpoint, how do you want to proceed from here? How does your organization want to proceed from here? That's not asking for the sale, but it leads you down the path, hey, when are you planning to make this decision? Is as good of asking when do I get? Because to some extent qualifying the timeline of when they make the decision now lets you know when you're going to is you asking for the sale. So that when you start to ask for the sale, it's no big deal. Right? That's the key, is that you can warm yourself up through that part of the closing process.

And if you've done the neat selling process the right way by the Time it gets to the end, you shouldn't be afraid to ask the timeline or when it can be done. Like you have trust, you have economic impact, you know they need it, you know how to help them with the authority. Like that. Access is all there, but you do got to ask.

So here's an, here's another subtle one is to say, you know, and you can ask this earlier, right? You can ask this sort of even in the, when you're getting shortlisted to say, hey, Katie, assuming we get shortlisted and stuff, when's it appropriate for us to start talking about red lines?

Nice.

Right, Right. Simple, right? Hey, at this point, Katie, normally people like to start redlining so that we don't get sort of caught at the end of June being battled through your legal department. Is it okay to start talking about that? I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just, I don't want to bug you at the end of the month with like, where's my contract? Right. There's so many little things you can do that are so much more real and simple and easy to do. So I think that's really what I want people to focus on. When you think about closing the sale, ask for it way earlier. Heck, I asked for the close within the first two minutes in a lot of ways, right When I go through my respect contract and they say, Katie, if this not the right fit, just say so. Likewise, I'm going to tell you the same thing because I don't need to waste your time or mine. You know what I just said, I'm going to close you at some point we're going to have a closing conversation and we're on equal playing field. And if I do that in the beginning, in my first two minutes, if I create my respect contract later when I need to come back and ask for those things, it's easy because he already gave me permission.

I love that. I absolutely love that. So I got one more I think process question here before we get in to the big three, some of the rapid fire questions and live better. And I'm asking this as a buyer, how do you apply neat to the follow up? Because most of the follow up I get from sales reps is garbage. The proposals are bad. It's a lot of checking in emails. How do you apply this method to the follow up game as well?

It's interesting. I've never been asked that question so I'm going to riff on it bit a little, little bit. And I might be wrong. So if I've done a good respect Contract, I don't ever have a problem asking where are we in the process? Right. You know, the checking in, reaching out, touching base, circling back, bubbling the top. Right. We know to stop saying those things. Right. Courtesy of our friend John Barrows. And if you can't, if you don't know what you're asking for, don't ask. So you have to be able to say, kd, you know, when we last spoke, we said we'd get an answer by today. Can you let me know where we are in the process or better yet, when can you let me know when I can expect an answer? Right. For me it's always about confirming next steps. So it's always about, in my summary email of every conversation I have, the very first thing is, you know, hey, kd, good talking to you. By the way, here are the notes from my call. The very first thing is next steps. Right. And actually have this templated in my email so that I don't forget to ask. And literally, literally there's a, there's a bullet point in my email that says Richard will contact again on blank. And that blank is there to remind me to ask kd, when do I fill in this blank? Right.

Love it.

So for me it has to be sure of saying those things and you will get these answers. Well, email me next week or, I don't know, let me go talk to everybody. You're going to get those hodgepodge answers. This is my standard follow up.

Great.

Katie, if I don't hear from you next Wednesday, can I send you an email? I don't want to bug you, but I don't want to let it slip through the cracks. Katie's I'll get two answers. One will be yes or no. Richard, you know what? Next Wednesday is not good. I need another week. And if they say, you know, if someone said no, you can't contact me, I'd be shocked. Right? Like, I'd be like, all right, what's going on? And I look, sometimes people say, you know, Richard, no, next week's not good, I need another three weeks. I'm going to be out on vacation or something's going to happen. But now all of a sudden you have this data, now you have like, you hate the three or four week answer. I got one yesterday, call us back in July. But, and it was an inbound. But she said, well, I'm going off on training next week, I'm two weeks in, then I've got a week's vacation. Well, now I know. And if I could say that to my boss of like hey look, I can't contact them. Like I can and I can try but this is what they told me so I have to trust them right now. That doesn't mean I couldn't send this person. Hey, found this article, thought you'd like it. I could certainly do that. You know, no call to action back. But anyway, another long answer. I'll pause.

These are good answers, right? I joke about this people all the time. There's no such thing as long or short. There's only interesting or uninteresting. Right? Hopefully these are interesting. That's why we can keep going. Because like there are short answers that were too long. You know, like people said, oh, this is a short email. It was a bad email. Like it doesn't matter if it was short or not. It was a bad email versus a good long one. So okay, so then the next question is one of my favorites, right? So say they've been listening and this whole time they forget everything we talked about except for three things. What are the three tactical things you would want people to remember about the neat selling method or they have to be neat selling method as much as to close more deals. What is the three things you'd want them to remember from our conversation?

I want them to remember they need to earn the right to ask questions.

Okay.

And that you do that with a respect contract. Right. And that in order to then ask those questions. Understand your open ended and closed ended questions. That's it. That if I teach people nothing but that then that's the essence of business. To be honest with you.

Right.

You got to have a respect contract for every conversation whether it's sales or not. Not. Right. You got to establish the framework. That's the respect contract. You've got to be able to get a confirmation of yes. If it's not the right fit, we'll say so. And then you got to know how to ask the right open ended questions. What that does in all those essences and all of that is it teaches self reliance. It teaches someone how to be self reliant. I take this exact same theory and I teach it to managers. What's your respect contract for your 1 on ones? How do you use open ended questions to encourage your sales rep to think and can you use those questions so they become self reliant? Not that they don't need to come back to you for other guidance but for that topic they don't now they can go come to you with another topic. So it's the same stuff Regardless of the sale, I love it.

And we're on video right now, and I've been taking notes the whole way through. I think two of the ones that jumped at me the most is right when you said, get them to say it out loud. Right? Like, not me telling them. If you get them to say it out loud. And that, that LTV mindset, it's not just, you know, oh, if we get two deals, it will cover the cost. It's like, no, like, it needs to be 10x and you got to use LTV to get there.

So those are much more tactical. I went super theoretical on that.

It's all good, right? That's why I take tactical notes. Right. So we're good. So, okay, last question. And this is always my favorite. Right. So the name of the podcast is Live Better Sell Better. Right. Like, and, you know, taking care of the person in salesperson, which so often gets missed in this industry.

I love that. Taking care of the person. I like that.

And so what would be your parting advice on the person side of sales? What would be advice to give, you know, sales reps or sales leaders on how to better take care of themselves or get more out of life or get more out of their fulfillment? That would then, you know, take care of so much more. What would that piece of advice be?

So, you know me, I'm really big on mental health. We've had this conversation in Costa Rica at surfing sales, which I know you're coming to. And, yeah, it's a shameless plug. So, yeah, it'll be coming back in 2021. It's about mental health, right? So it's about doing the things that if you take care of your physical health, then you should be taking care of your mental health. Now, the cool thing is taking care of your physical health is part of your mental health. I want people to understand the difference. If you're taking care of people is that mental health is not mental illness. Those are two things. We all have mental health. We have good days. We have not good days for some of us. You know, I suffer from depression on a regular basis. I'm not suicidal. I don't hurt myself. I don't hurt other people. It's just a lingering sadness. But I know to take care of my mental health, whether it's through physical health and exercise, meditation, trying to eat more healthy, that's what I want people to think about, is their mental health. And as you think about these things, whether it's physical health, mental health, any of these things, just do one Thing. Don't try to meditate and journal and eat better and exercise. No, no, no. Today I'm gonna eat less crap. Okay, that's good. That's it. Don't do anything else. Right. Today I'm gonna go walk. Three minutes in one direction and three minutes in another. It's a six minute walk. Good. That's. That's really. Actually the science is really. That's about all it takes to sort of go for a walk. It doesn't need to be 30 minutes. One little thing to take care of the person. That's what I would want people to think about, find one little thing to help them. Hey, let's just go for a walk and talk. Let's not talk about work today. So that kind of stuff, I love.

It because I'm guilty of that too. It's like, all right, next week. Next week, Richard. Everything green, smoothies, 15 minute sound. But like, I'm gonna sauna, I'm gonna work out. And it's like, you miss one thing, you're like, well, this week's done, shot down. Go do it. So. No, I love it. So.

And I also think too. I think I want to bring this up too, because I know this is really passionate. As we talk about what's happening in the world today, whether it's Covid or the social injustice that's occurring, it can feel like we need to do a lot, like it really, really can. And there are big things we need to move, right? But you got to do what's good, right? You got to do what's meaningful, right? So. And sometimes it's one little thing, and sometimes it's a big thing. Sometimes it's going to the protest. Go to the protests. Sometimes it's about just sitting down with your own thought and going, man, I just hate this, man. What can I do? The action item isn't to do an action item. The action item is just be present in the moment. And sometimes for that moment, that day, that might be enough. In the social justice world, I hope you do more than that at some point. But sometimes that's just what we need. We need to sit with our thoughts before we take action. And it's the same with physical health and mental health. And I just. I felt like I really wanted to bring that up because there's a lot of pressure on us right now. Business, life, home, work, kids in school, working from home. Like, I know people who are two full time working parents, and they got to homeschool their kids, right? And guess what? Worksnot is doing. They're still expecting the same level of productivity. Are you fucking kidding me? Right? Right. And I hope this becomes a much bigger wake up call to the 40 hour workweek here. Right. Like, how do we make these adjustments? Right? Because that's a piece of it. And then also how do we make this adjustment on the social justice and social injustice that we're all seeing and experiencing in different ways, all the things that need to occur. Because it can't just be the last two weeks. Like that's not enough. But you also can't solve it tomorrow either. So how do we figure that out? Right.

Your advice was perfect because you can do the small things for a long time. It's when you try to come out the gate too big and you can't maintain it. Just like a diet, just like an exercise routine, just like anything. Do the small things for a long time versus like, you know what? I'm going to do all these big things and you can only do it for a week because it's too much.

So I got a question for you because I know we're about to wrap it up, right?

Yes.

What have you learned from doing these? And I don't mean like the tactical things, right? Like, what are the things that you were like, wow, you know, I started to do this because I wanted to get the word out there. And I know we want to get that out there. Hey, Andrew, it's all good. So you can sit and listen in on this. I'm grilling Kevin now. So what are the things you're walking away with this that's helping kd, not just the community, which I know is the big piece for you. What are you learning out of all this?

I think the biggest thing I'm learning from, I guess, these talks and then also building the community is how hungry people are for connection and belonging. People are hungry for it right now, especially as we're all remote. Like there's this desire and this craving to be a part of something. Right. And, you know, so that's what I'm noticing in the community. But then also from like, you know, people that I'm interviewing, which has been a big learning lesson, is how open and willing people are to share and give. Like, you know, we all deal with insecurities, myself included. Right. And so when I was going through this and going like, I'm gonna reach out to all these people and maybe they'll do it, not only have not one single person said no, but everyone has been overwhelmingly enthusiastic to help and give back so like that even, you know, like, I think sometimes I can be cynical or I can be like, I don't always see the good in people as much as I should. And so the overwhelming, like, absolutely, I want to do that. This is going to be great. I want to help. What can I do? Has been also a big learning lesson for me.

Cool. Awesome. Thanks for letting me ask you a question.

Absolutely. So, my man, Richard Harris. Holy cow, dude. This was so good and so valuable. Thank you so much for your time. Can't wait till I'm on that beach again in Costa Rica with you, my man.

Absolutely.

Appreciate it.

Thanks for the time.

Talk to you again.