Perspective and Environment Prevent Burnout with Erika Davis

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Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

I'm pumped for this. And I can't remember if it was a post that triggered it or you wrote something. I'm like, I need her on the show. We're talking about mental health. And I'm pumped for this. And so I'm going to start here. Why is this so important to you? Right to one, obviously you're writing about it, but you're spending your nights, your weekends learning how to address this as well. So talk to me a little bit, like, why this is so important to you as a topic.

Yeah, I think. Yeah. For the last four years, I've been spending nights and weekends on this, so obviously I'm pretty invested. But I think personally, I used to be one of those people that would say something like, I'm a logical person, not an emotional person. Which I've said before meant to me like, I'm better than you if you're struggling. Like, I think I. It was always a sense of pride for me that I could just sort of white knuckle my way through anything. And that eventually caught up with me. And I really struggled. Being someone who puts my work ethic and just, you know, my ability to really persevere, that's like one of the things I like most about myself. And so if I were struggling mentally, it would really. I would feel very weak. And eventually I just burned out really hard. And therapy really helped me. And so I said, hey, I want to be close to this. Regardless of what I end up doing in my career, I really want to be not only educated and I want to go through this process of getting to be a licensed therapist. I want to do that for my own growth. But also I want to be close to that work my whole life because I think it's important for me. And I know so many other people in sales especially, who were very similar to me, who were really hard workers, who thought that, oh, if I'm struggling, it's my problem that I need to fix. Which we can go into that. I'd love to talk about that. So just, you know, my own need, first and foremost, really. But second, just a desire to be close to this work and to spread it as much as I can.

And I mean, there's so much we can unpack, even just from that first answer there, right around burnout, this white knuckle type mindset of like, I just have to go through it because so often in sales, right, we tell people they need to be gritty, gotta be gritty to be in sales. But then in a lot of ways, what we're telling people is that literally to grit is like to hold onto for longer than you should or to hold on to through hard times. So let's first talk about the idea around burnout, because I think this is a topic that, again, is getting brought up more and more. But let's flip it from kind of what it is to what are some of the things that you have learned or seen to help prevent burnout and recover from burnout? Because there's the two sides of it. It's like, how do we prevent it from happening? But then we all get to that place. What do we do when we get there?

Yeah, I think for, you know, I can use my own example and speak for my own experience, and then I can talk more generally. But I think something that I always really struggled with was, you know, I would say a lot to my own therapist. You know, my work ethic is really important to me. Like, if I. Because I used to think that recovering from burnout and taking care of my mental health meant that I shouldn't work as hard or that I shouldn't want to be the best at what I do and I shouldn't sort of strive for greatness. And so I would think that if I were to, quote, unquote, recover from my burnout or take care of my mental health, it meant that I couldn't still like those things about myself and that I would have to just sort of, you know, settle for being mediocre, you know, whatever I would tell myself. And so I think it really comes down to understanding what's important to you. I think burnout a lot of times comes not necessarily from working too hard, but from putting yourself in a situation where you're working really hard at things that aren't important to you and you don't find meaning in those things anymore. So I think getting really honest about what's important to you and letting the other things kind of go, prioritizing what's important and letting those other things go has been really helpful for me in understanding, like, if I only have this amount of energy, where am I going to put that? And how am I going to accept that I'm not going to be able to give a hundred percent to every single thing.

And so how. How do you help separate that in sales? Right. Because what's important to a lot of us in sales is hitting the number that is important to me because that's going to pay my livelihood, it's going to pay my bills. It allows me to live. Right. So do you have, I guess, recommendations on how to separate from that? Because also, too, I talk about this a lot with my own teams is like the, like, money is not a motivator for most people. Money is not important to most people, but what money provides is important to a lot of people. So how do you recommend disconnecting? Because I worry some people would listen and go like, all right, so you're telling me to not care about hitting my number. Yeah, so break that one down for me a little bit.

Yeah, I was, I was that person. So I can totally see that, you know, and I think, you know, I would feel a little bit like a liar if I didn't just say like, you know, I think, I think I'm still figuring this out. Right. I think there's still times in my role now where I experience burnout. One of the things that has changed fundamentally in me is the belief in what I need to do when I'm approaching burnout. Right. So I used to think that when I was approaching burnout, what I needed to do is just double down and just run into the fire harder. And now I fundamentally believe that, hey, if I've already worked 10 hours today and my impulse is to work four more, what I really need to do is go to spin class, call a friend, and go to bed at 8:30, you know what I mean? Instead of staying up until 11 and working. And I think that for me, it's taken me a couple of times of going way past my threshold with burnout to realize that running myself into the ground is not actually going to make me more effective. So it's really about believing and knowing what recharges your batteries. So that, that's kind of the first thing with, with hitting your number and all of that. Like, I get that too. I'm still in a revenue position and I'm responsible for, you know, revenue at our org and managing a sales team and all of that. So I, I get that. I've been an SDR and an ae, so I totally understand that. One of the things that I always tell my reps is when you feel like you're. You're running really hard and you're trying to do a lot of output, right? There's a lot of emphasis in sales on activity, right. Make. Make this many calls, do this many emails. I think about, you know, when you, when you feel like you've Pushed as hard as you can with output, think about input. Like, what are you reading? What are you listening to? Like, how are you getting new ideas so you're not just like banging your head against a brick wall again and again and again. Like, how are you feeling? Excited? Because when you are prospecting, let's say on LinkedIn, for example, like, if I were to have written posts and I was in the mindset of, like, oh, I have to publish this content on LinkedIn and I was publishing it with no energy, you never would have contacted me to be on this podcast. But because when I was publishing on LinkedIn, like, my energy, I was excited, I wanted to share, I was really enjoying what I was doing. It attracts people who are interested, and that's the same when you're prospecting. So I think, you know, how are you getting input, Whether that's, you know, asking your manager for another call, whether that's asking a teammate to get their eyes on a new script, or some emails that you're writing asking for input, reading something new, listening to something new, seeking out new perspectives and new information, it does recharge you and it's making you better at the same time. So that's something really actionable that I think sales reps could do more of to get just some new, fresh energy in the day.

Yeah, I'm trying to remember where I read it. I have it somewhere because I took a course on it. It was like zero to impossible. But it talked about burnout. One of the core things for burnout and one of the core things for stress is lack of progress. When you're working hard but feel like you're progressing, yes, you don't tend to feel as much stress. You don't feel like burning out. But when you're working hard and not progressing, or even worse, you're working hard and you feel like you're going backwards, that's when the burnout really starts to occur. And what I like how you called out here is like, obviously guarding your inputs, right? Because if you're also putting a lot of garbage in, you're going to feel a certain type of way. But asking for inputs, asking for help, getting new ideas, because then again, it can generate progress where you feel like you're actually getting towards something. Whereas, you know, asking someone to run for an hour, asking someone to push against a wall for an hour, it's way easier to run for an hour than it is to push just against a wall for an hour and nothing occur. And so now let's flip it to the other side of this. So, like, all right, Erica, I'm burnt out. Nope. Actually, different question. How do you know you're burnt out? How do you know you're burnt out versus tired, burnt out versus needing a break? Because there's a difference. There's levels to this. Right? So, like, what are some of the signs of, like, you know what, maybe I actually am burnt out versus, you know, I can just keep going. This is just a low point I need to work through.

Yeah, I think everyone has maybe different things that they notice in themselves. For me, I notice I'm burnt out when I get angry. Like someone, you know, I'll show up to work and I don't know, I'll just get on LinkedIn, I'll see a post. I'll just feel so angry. And on a normal day when I'm feeling healthy, like, I don't care, you know, I'll just let it brush off or I'll think things are funny. But when I start getting angry, when I stop laughing, when I just start to kind of resent the things that I do day to day, I know that I need to take a step back. And yeah, I mean, those are, those are the ways that I know. And I think the difference really between what people are calling burnout and just being really tired is that lack of meaning, that lack of connection, that lack of purpose and drive. And I think there's, you know, this is probably another podcast topic entirely, but there's really only so much you can do to control that. There's also then another conversation to be had about, you know, being part of an institution or part of a system or an organization that isn't treating you well. Right. So burnout sometimes is a sign you need to leave. Burnout could also be a sign that you need to change. Like sometimes I'll ask myself, do I need to change my perspective or do I need to change my environment? And if I can't change either of those things meaningfully, then I just know it's out of my control and I just need to take care of myself so that, that those questions to me are super helpful with burnout. And if I know that I can't change my perspective, it's usually the environment that I need to change. So do I need to take a day off? Do I need to, like, go to. Go call a friend, go to therapy, go to a spin class? Those are like my three. My three go to's, go for a walk with my dog?

Well, what I like that you're Calling out there, and I want to go a little bit deeper on this. Right. Is like, you know, change of perspective versus change of environment. Because I do think a lot of people, especially during, you know, this. This great resignation, great switch, great. Everything that's been going on is like, they change the environment without changing their perspective.

Yep.

And then they wonder why after those first 90 days, they're back to feeling the same way they were before. So let's talk about this perspective, because I think oftentimes actually people change their environment too quick or they blame the environment without actually getting into the perspective. So talk about that a little bit more of, like, how do you change your perspective? Kind of same idea. Like, how do I know when it's perspective versus, oh, Erica's just a mean boss, and, oh, if I just had a better boss, then I wouldn't be burnt out. So then I leave and then I go get another boss, and it's the exact same thing. So let's talk about perspective a little bit because I think that's important.

Yeah, I love this conversation. One of the most shocking things that I've learned in my graduate school is that emotions are not thoughts. Right. Emotions aren't in your minds. They're in your body.

Emotions are chemicals.

Exactly. And so I think I grew up as a competitive athlete. I was a basketball, and I was always on, like, traveling teams and all of that. And I. I just grew up with this mentality of, like, mind over matter, push through. And so I always thought, like, my thoughts are my feelings, and if I can just change the way I think, like, that's all I have to do. And then what I've learned in school is that emotions are physical sensations in your body or, like, feelings are physical sensations in your body. And your thought patterns are related, but that's a learned connection that you have. So, for example, I think sometimes when people feel really tired, tired isn't a thought, but you have thoughts that come up when you get tired. Like, for me, it's anger. So I'll be really angry at someone. And so this is my shift in perspective. When I get angry, I, like, take a step back and I say, okay, do I need a nap? Right. Do I need to take a walk? Do I need fresh air? Like, have I just been sitting for three hours straight? Do I have a desk? Treadmill? I'm like, do I need to walk for an hour and do some work? Just some. Do I need some solitude? And so perspective. Changing my perspective, to me, the easiest way to do that is to Change my physical experience. So do I need to move? Do I need to lay down? Do I need to pet my dog? Do I need to talk to someone? I really focus on paying attention to how my body feels. Like I've done yoga for a while. And one of the things that I learned from a teacher is a cue is again, when I feel really tense, my. I have a yoga teacher that always asks, like, how far are your shoulders from your ears? And so every once in a while, when I'm finding myself on my computer hunched up and like, angry, I'll just say, okay, can I get my shoulders a little farther from my ears? And then all of a sudden I feel differently. And so it's, it's, it's funny. And I think, you know, to someone thinking about this concept for the first time, that it's like, oh, my perspective isn't just about, you know, this is the white knuckling part, right? That it's like, if you feel stressed out, like, I'm sure you've, you've experienced this. Either someone saying it to you, you saying it to someone, or you witnessing the interaction. When someone's really worked up about something and someone else is like, you need to calm down. But that never was like the worst. The opposite happens, right? You just get 10 times as keyed up as you just were. And so that's such a good example of how changing your perspective isn't about noticing what you're thinking and being like, I shouldn't think that. You know, one of the, one of the terms I've learned in school that I really like is, professor of mine says you shouldn't should all over yourself. Don't should all over yourself. If you feel this way. That's how you feel. You can't just decide to feel differently. But what you can do and the way you can change your perspective is to pay attention to how your body feels and then put yourself, you know, in a different situation just for a moment. And maybe it's even five minutes. Maybe it's just, you know, I love the like two minute meditations on headspace or just like, hey, play a two minute meditation, do some deep breathing. That used to make me so upset when I would, like when I would lose a game or something or, you know, if my meeting no showed or if I lost a deal as an AE and I would be angry and be like, hey, just take a couple deep breaths. Like, screw off, man. Like, don't tell me what to do. But now, because, you know, I have had this psychoeducation And I've seen it work, like with my clients. As a therapist, it's like, oh no, that's science. That's not some woo woo magic thing. Like that's, that's been studied and proven and it's so hard to hear that if you've been, you know, part of a culture that teaches you that, you know, your thoughts determine your actions. So just change your thoughts and you're in control. It's really hard to let go of that mentality because it is appealing, right? It is appealing to think that, oh, if I'm just really determined and I can work as hard as I want to, I don't ever want to quit, right? That's the thing, of course, I never want to quit. But sometimes you have to slow down. You have to just take it easy, take it easier. And sometimes that's the fastest way to being successful. But it's hard to learn that if you've always believed the opposite.

And what I love that you called out there and Tony Robbins actually talks about this a lot, right? Like motion creates emotion, right? So if you're feeling a certain type of way, change the way you're moving, right? Because to your point, right, your ears are up, you're holding your breath, you're clenching, you're leaned over. That creates a different type of emotion than okay, standing up, getting big, relaxing your arms, putting your head back. Like there's all sorts of different things you can do. Your body that change the chemicals it's releasing, which then changes the emotion and then the thoughts that can come with it. So I actually just finished a book, literally in two days. Don't believe everything you think. So good. Like, so good. And it talks about the difference between thinking and thoughts. And the whole premise is like all suffering comes from thinking, not from thoughts. Thoughts just appear and they go. Like when we are having the most joy in our life, we're not thinking, whatever. When we're playing, we're not thinking. When you were on the basketball court, you weren't thinking. You had thoughts, but you weren't thinking. And the moment you start to think on the court, it falls apart, right? And so just a really, really good fast read. I recommend it. I've recommended, like, I literally got it on like, I think, geez, Saturday, finished it by Tuesday. I've recommended it to like 10 people already. Like, but this is a big part of it. Like you change your state and it can change the emotions and go from there. But now let's flip it to the other side. Then, right? So these are some of the things to get ahead of it when you are burnt out, when you realize that, okay, I'm no longer at my best, I've changed my perspective. Like, I'm there, right? I'm angry, I'm resentful, I'm apathetic. You know, like, those types of emotions start to be there. What do you do to work yourself out of it? Because I think oftentimes the advice given there is just too soft. You know, Erica, just take a long weekend. Oh, yeah. Because that's gonna do it. That's just gonna solve what took a year to get to. I'm gonna solve in three days. So, like, what are some of the things to do to get yourself back? Right. As you said, change perspective, change environment. What else can be done to get back to your full self?

One thing I was thinking, just as you were talking about kind of suffering that's related to this is just this concept of good emotions and bad emotions. One thing, again, I've learned in school, which is the goal, good mental health and being mentally healthy isn't about feeling happy or joyful all the time. It's about feeling the full spectrum of human emotion at the appropriate time, right? So I think one thing that's really helpful around burnout is like noticing those. Noticing what negative emotions you're having. And instead of feeling like, oh, I shouldn't feel that, or it's so bad that I feel that way, like, that's data. Good emotions and bad emotions, they're both data. And you wouldn't, you know, as a sales leader, you wouldn't look at all your data and be like, let's just look at the good data because that's where we want to go. No, the bad data, you know, is telling you what. What needs to change, right? Like, anger, sadness, frustration. Those move you to action. And so a lot of times when you're burnt out, like, maybe, for example, you're being asked to do something at work that you don't think is ethical, right? And if that's like, one of, like, a big reason why a lot of mental health care workers, for example, are burned out, or I'm just thinking about, you know, the last couple of years in the hospital system, right? There's just, like, way too much work, way understaffed, and it's like, at a certain point, it's like, this isn't safe. And so maybe you're asked to do something that's unethical, or maybe you're just. People aren't taking care of you, they don't have your best interest in mind. And so in that case, like, I think having some compassion for yourself when you're burnt out to say, oh, man, like, I'm feeling tired, I'm feeling angry, I'm feeling resentful, and I'm right to feel that way. Like, I have been through it and this is hard and I'm a human being and I have these feelings not because I'm weak, but because I've been worked to the bone. And of course I feel that way. Like in therapy, there's so much of coursing. Right. Like, of course you feel that way, because I've actually just been really shocked in my, like, last year of clinical experience, how helpful it is just to, like, you know, I'll be working with clients and I'll just, of course, of course, of course the whole hour, and I can just see how light people get when they realize that they're having their emotional experience that they're having for, like, very rational reasons. Right. Like, emotions in that sense are rational. It's like, of course you would feel that way if you've been through that. So I think, you know, I just posted this morning on LinkedIn about having your own back, because I think so much when we're burned out, like, I know I've been through this when I've been burned out, that's the time when I'm the hardest on myself. Say, like, oh, you have to pull through this. Like, you can't feel this way. You're weak, whatever. I would tell myself to try to be stronger. But sometimes having that compassion for yourself is, you know, the first thing that you need to do. And that takes a little bit of that, that edge off. And I think it's also important just to note here that not everyone can just, like, quit their job. Right. And I, I have a lot of, A lot of empathy for people who are in situations where, you know, maybe they're supporting a family, maybe they, I don't know, whatever reasons that people have for not being able to just up and quit their job, like, so giving people the advice if they're burnt out just to quit and find a better job, I mean, there's a certain sense of privilege that comes with that. I think, you know, in a perfect world, I think if. If your job isn't, you know, isn't, you know, honoring to your dreams and you're not being treated well, like, yeah, you should be able to just up and leave, but that's not the reality of Everyone. So I think again, having compassion for yourself, seeking support, use the word play, which I think is so, so important. There's been a lot of studies done about the importance of play and finding joy and work and relationships just in general as humans. So you know, if you, if you can't quit your job, maybe get a dog.

Not a puppy though, y'.

All. Not a puppy.

Adopt.

Yeah, yeah, adopt. Adopt like a 1 to 4 year old. Any dog? No, adopt any dog. But so I think finding that if you can't, again, if you can't just leave your job, finding that compassion for yourself, finding that play, you know, it kind of reminds me of like when, you know, people want to like change their diet, for example. It's like if you focus on adding the good stuff first instead of thinking about what you have to leave or what you have to quit or what you have to cut out, sometimes that can be so much more accessible. And so I think having social support is super, super important. I love the, the rise of like communities online in the last couple of years. I think some awesome like sales and revenue communities have popped up. And I think especially with everyone working remotely or with so many people working remot. It used to be that, you know, if you were having a rough day in sales, you could just turn to your teammate and you know, have a heart to heart, go for a walk, grab a conference room. And I think that was for me as a sales rep that was always like really helpful when I felt myself approaching that burnout threshold. But now that so many people don't have that, having communities and being able to connect with people and talk openly about it, I think as you mentioned in the beginning, the fact that there are so many more open conversations about this, I think can help people not only come down from burnout once they experience it, but the goal would be to catch it earlier and earlier and earlier so you don't end up in a position where, you know, I don't know where you have to quit your job suddenly or something like that.

I think it's key, right? It's like joy play, right? Just where again, you're not thinking, you're not thinking when you're playing with your dog, you're not thinking when you're playing a game. Like one of my favorite books is Actionable Gamification by Yukai Choi. Super Better is another one from Jane McGonagall and she talked a lot about depression and how games gamification got, you know, helped her with depression throughout all this. And so finding places Just like one of my. Like, so I have a small affirmation, like, passionate, playful present. Like, that's something I say to myself daily, all the time, passionate, playful, and present. You know, like, whatever it is I'm doing, whether that's with my kids, my job, like, bring that passion, but play, have some fun with this and be present. Right. Be there. Be there for it. And so, oh, man, we're already coming up on 30. There's so much that I want to unpack here. So let's flip it real quick because, you know, we've been talking about it overall, is to get really now specific to sales. Right. What can sales leaders do to better protect and support the mental health of their team?

Yeah, I think from the very beginning, like, if you're. If you're a manager of a sales team, when you hire someone new, I think it's really important to take the time to get to know them, get to know what motivates them, why they're doing what they're doing. One of the things, as a former teacher, one of the things I always ask people when I start working with them is how do you learn? How do you communicate? You know, like, for example, if I were in an interview, I might ask someone, you know, tell me about a time when someone's communicated poorly with you, what, what happened and what could they have done better? And that not only tells me how they like to be communicated with, but it also tells me how much insight they have into their own communication style. And it's not necessarily a bad thing if someone doesn't have a lot of insight into their communication style or into what motivates them. But as a leader, it tells you that this person might not be able to ask very directly for what they need. And so you might have to have a little bit more patience with that person, whereas another person might come to you. And, like, when I go to my boss, I always say, hey, this is how I'm feeling. This is what I need from you, and this is what I don't want. And, you know, there might, like, sometimes I'll say, you know, I don't need. Like, I want to work through this with you. I have an issue. I don't have a solution yet. What I would like to do is be able to tell you everything I've thought about the solutions that I have, pros and cons of those, and then I want to lay that all out on the table, and I want to spend 15 minutes, like, doing what if scenarios before you tell me what to do or before you shut anything down, like I will preface in a one on one with my boss, I will say all of that. And so when I'm, you know, when I'm leading a team, I want everyone on my team to feel comfortable coming to me and saying that too. And I, I think modeling vulnerability as well. Like I think, you know, before I was ever a manager, I used to think like, oh, a manager's always have, they always have to have it together and they can never show weakness. But yeah, I mean, you know, I've been working at a bootstrap startup for the last three years and it's not always low stress. In fact, most of the time it's like peak stress. If that's, it's like a stress plateau. And so yeah, when my team comes to me and they say, hey, I'm really stressed, I'll say, hey, me too. Like, I'm really stressed too. And this is how, you know, I logged off at, you know, 5:00pm last night. I went to spin class, I went for a walk. What did you do? So modeling being able to show your own vulnerabilities. Like I've seen a lot on LinkedIn, which I know is not always reflective of reality, but I, I've seen interactions a lot where someone like usually it's an sdr, would talk about being really stressed out and talk about just a desire to focus more on mental health. And then someone in the comments will say something like, well, if you can't handle stress, maybe sales isn't for you. And you know, I think, I think people say that because there might be a like a grain of truth in it, which is that learning how to manage your stress and to manage your emotions and to understand how your own emotions work and how your own systems of motivation work that will take you so far in sales or in leadership. And at the same time, if someone comes to you on your team and they say, hey, I'm really stressed out, and you say to them, well, maybe this isn't for you. Someone was just really vulnerable with you, right? Someone just came to you and said, hey, I'm struggling. And instead of saying, well, maybe this isn't for you, you can say, hey, tell me what's going on. I hear you're stressed. Totally makes sense. Of course you're stressed. This job is really hard. Tell me what you're going through. And then they'll tell you. And then you can say something like, okay, I hear you saying this. What are you doing to help you process that stress? Do you need solutions of how to process the stress outside of work? Do we need to talk about maybe some things you could do during the workday? I think caring for the whole person is such an important part of leadership and so being a good listener, not necessarily thinking that you know what someone means right away when they tell you they're stressed. Because I think a lot of times when someone will say something like I'm stressed, there's this like light that goes off in sales leaders brains. It's like complaints, excuses, negative thing. And I think that that's a bad program. So I think deprogramming that response to someone coming to you and expressing vulnerability is super important. And then being able to reflect that vulnerability back at them and just be a good listener. But also, I mean, not pretending that sales is ever going to be stress free. And it's not about if you feel stressed. This isn't for you, it's in order to be really successful. Let's help you get really good at coping with stress and managing stress and managing it earlier and earlier before it becomes a big deal. Because if you're someone who is, you know, in an SDR role or in an AE role or in a sales leadership role, like you're probably attracted to that for a reason. Like there's probably something within you that is made for it in a way. And it's okay if like it's not for you. It's okay if you try it for a couple years and you say, hey, this is too much for me or this isn't what I want. Like that's totally fine. But I think you can have such a big impact in someone's career as a sales leader. If in that moment when someone's really wrestling with their own limitations, you can say to them, hey, like I hear you bumping up against your limitations. And how great is that? That's amazing. That you're pushing yourself to your threshold now is the point where you can grow. And in order to grow, you might need to learn how to cope or how to manage things in new ways. So let's talk about that one last thing. I'll say, I know I've been talking for a while, but one thing I wrote about recently was this idea of how people always say, get comfortable being uncomfortable. Get comfortable being uncomfortable. And then the minute that you're like, I'm uncomfortable, it's like, stop being weak. And instead of in that moment where you're bumping up against that limitation, it's like, wow, what a gift. What A gift that you've found an environment and that you've actually been willing to push yourself to your limit and maybe a little bit beyond to the point where now you're in this space where you're not totally sure how to manage. Like, that's a gift that you've given yourself. And see it that way, that can really, again, make a huge impact in someone's career if you can teach them how to navigate and steward that space well.

And see, we're going to have to do a part two, because there's so much here that we can keep going down. I think where I want to wrap on this is this idea of coping and managing, because we've kind of talked about it a little bit, but I'd love to kind of just, you know, end on this idea of, like, what are some of those strategies to better cope and manage stress? Because I've had some of those same conversations, and actually, I don't. Are you familiar with Jeff Ricely? Okay, so, like, Jeff and I actually had this conversation borderline. A little bit of a debate. This is a couple more than a couple months back. Time blurs now, but it was like, at what point, though, is the stress of sales not good for somebody? You know, it's never the first. It's never like, you come to me and say, like, I'm stressed. Oh, you should not be in sales. It's not the second, it's not the third. But after six months, eight months of watching someone suffer through the stressors that come, at what point do you make that recommendation? So that's part of a whole nother conversation. Because that one I've struggled with myself personally. I'm like, this isn't good for this person's mental health anymore. And I've tried to do all of these things, and they are just not in a good place. At what point do you make that suggestion to someone? So I'm gonna bring you back for part two, but what I want to end on is like, okay, so coping, managing stress. What would be some of your best advice there that maybe we haven't touched on so far that reps could apply, but also leaders listening could apply to their teams to help them better manage and cope with the stress that does come with sales?

Yeah, I might have been using these two a little more interchangeably than I would like to, but I think coping, in my mind means that you're kind of approaching crisis mode. Right. That at this point, it's no longer about, like, laying all your cards on the table. And figuring out what works. It's about, you know, in the moment, like calming yourself down and coping with that stress. And so I think taking a break, taking a walk, these are things that we've already kind of touched on, but it doesn't have to. This is the most important thing is when I say take a break, people think like, oh, take a week off or you know, take a month off or whatever it is. It's like, no, I mean like five minutes. Like, you know, don't have conversations when you're angry. Don't cold call when you're angry. Don't, don't send cold emails when you're angry. I think music can be a huge one. You know, I have three or four playlists on my phone on Spotify that I have for different moods. Like I have a really angry one, I have a really sad one, I have a happy one. And so I think music can be so great for regulating your mood. I think one thing you can do not when you're maybe in crisis, but ahead of it, is just to get a friend and say, hey, like you want to, like let's make a pact, you know, if, you know, like if one of us is in crisis, like let's just, just have a pack that we can always text each other and it'll never feel like a burden. Because I think a lot of times when people are in crisis, they feel like they're going to burden someone else with that crisis. And so I think that can be really helpful too, especially if it's someone in your same role. And if the stress is work related, I think that can be really good. Managing stress. I think so much about managing stress is self knowledge, right? So I know for myself, for example, like I don't have a lot of chill. And so if someone were to tell me that the best way to manage my stress is to sit and quietly meditate for 30 minutes, I'd be like, well, I guess I'm just not going to manage my stress. Like I need, I need to go to spin class at 5:30 in the morning. Like that's what I need, someone yelling at me and I need loud music and I need, you know, I need something that will match the intensity. So for me, like stress management is really about making sure that I include activities in my week that I know are going to help regulate my mood and sort of keep me on track. So I think just sitting down, you know, I have a, I'm a big calendar time blocker and I think like I have a color Just for like my self care activity. So it's like work is blue and school is pink and then self care is yellow. And so I look at my week and I just make sure that every day there's something yellow on my calendar, preferably early, early in the morning, so I know that I won't skip it later. And if there's not enough, I kind of think about, okay, where can I. Where can I put that in? So management just feels more like a, like a longer term strategy that can be adjusted over time. And there's different seasons too. Like, also just understanding that some seasons you're going to need more, some seasons you're going to be okay with less. And to not be like, we haven't talked a lot about, like, rigid thinking, but I think being willing to like, let some ideas that you might have had about yourself go, because that's what growth is. It's about kind of writing a new story about yourself.

So much here, Eric.

Dang it. Yeah, there's a lot.

There's so much what you. We can't cover all mental health in under 40 minutes.

Like, I would be pretty angry if we could because I've been in school for like four years.

Like, wait, that's all it took, so. No, I mean, this, this was phenomenal. I do think this is opening the doors to more conversations. So we definitely will do a, a part two of this as we continue down this path because it's important. This is why I started the podcast. Or this idea of like, live better, sell better. The idea of like the person in salesperson, that was our number one virtue in my org of like, we take care of the person in salesperson. Right. We didn't. We did. We practiced meditation as a group. We did visualization, we did goal setting. One of the questions on our one on one doc is, how are you taking care of yourself this week? Like, how are you taking care of yourself this week? Are we being proactive? Anytime a manager brought a rep to me saying, like, yo, like, they're struggling, first question always was, when's the last time they did something that brought them joy? Not why are they feeling it that way? Not what it's like, when's the last time they did something that brought them joy? Go assign that. Right. Go assign that. No, go make more dials. Oh, they love yoga. Go tell them to take a yoga class at New. Assign it. Make that the assignment. Because I think there's so many things that we can do here. So, Erica, where can people find you? Get more of you. Where are you putting out content on this stuff? Where can they get more Erika Davis in their life?

So LinkedIn is where I'm at most days. Pretty responsive to comments and direct messages, so that's probably the best place to reach me. We just started a podcast too, called Revops Therapy where we talk talk about revenue, operations and the people behind it. So so I kind of co host that with our CEO Jordan Greaser. So check us out there too.

Nice. I did an interview earlier today with with Rachel Nasbeth, so she phenomenal Rev Ops leader. So grab her, get her on on the show as well. But awesome. Erica, thank you so much for your time and energy. We will do another session on this for sure. But until then, we'll be in touch.

Thanks for having me.