PLG Strategies to Grow Users from the Bottom Up with Yaakov Carno

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It is great to be here. Kevin, thank you for having me. Yeah, this is something that I'm super passionate about. I've been working with a range of different teams and I've learned so much from each one in such a different way. Everyone's experiencing product led growth so differently, and I think this is something that people need to educate themselves on because they're going to want to harness the power.

When I was looking for, actually, I was never even looking for. When I was determining if I'd step back into a leadership role, a PLG focused company was mandatory for me. So, like, stepping back into bench, they have a strong PLG direction. So I was like, okay, we're on this. So when we say plg, let's just start with defining it for people maybe that aren't familiar or what you believe the definition of product LED growth is. What does that mean if someone is focused on product LED growth?

So, yeah, that's definitely the starting point. And I'd say I'd start with the basic definition to not complicate things. I'd say that product led growth is a model, a strategy that focuses on leveraging the product experience itself to be the primary driver of acquisition, retention and expansion. Leveraging the product value as the value proposition that fuels these motions, rather than being dependent on marketing and sales to fire them up.

And you used a word there that I think most people skip, which I really, really like, which is the product experience. Right. Not just letting people get into your product, but what are they experiencing when they do so go a little bit deeper on that.

Right.

So if I'm looking to craft a solid, you know, product growth strategy, like, what should that experience be for the prospect or customer? Like, how do I craft an amazing product experience that then guides them to actually becoming a customer?

So I think it starts with really a deep understanding of why they there, why are they coming to your product and what, what's the problem they're trying to solve. Then in terms of, from our perspective of building our product, we want to understand the value gap. So this is a term that we're going to have to deep dive into. And it's when the, the perceived value of the product doesn't align with the experience value of the product. This is something that product led motions tries to overcome, tries to lower the time to value so that when users are looking for a problem, they're trying to solve something and they see a solution, they Want to be able to tap into that solution as quick as possible. They want to see, hey, this product can solve my problem. And the second they land in the product, it should intuitively guide them to the experience of how they're going to solve that, rather than just telling them, hey, we can do this, we can do this, and all talk, no show. The complete opposite is that, hey, let's prove to you that we can do this, try it out, you know, solve your problem. And then they're hooked already because they have experienced the value and the product experience is now the value proposition rather than whatever you're saying on a sales call.

And so let's keep going deeper on value gaps because funny enough, I think that's a problem in all sales motions, whether it's PLG or sales LED or whatever else where it's like there's this gap between what the customer actually wants and how we sell it and how we put it into play. So go a little bit deeper on that. Right? Like how do you. Because this is where sales starts to get a little bit, you know, up in arms is, well, how can we do that if we don't talk to them? Like, how do we actually help them achieve these gaps if we didn't get to talk to them and they just went into the product? So let's go deeper on that value gaps of like perceived versus actual and how you either find those things out or do those things.

So that is exactly where product led growth shifts our way of thinking. And what I mentioned of time to value, this is a process that I go through with companies. I call it zero to value. And, and it's really trying to systemize how we see getting the user from their first steps in the product to experiencing the value that they're looking for. So this means, as I said before, really understanding what are they trying to solve and packaging our product in a way that's based around actual workflows that go through the realistic process of how they would do things rather than showcasing our product. So again, the shift is focusing on them experiencing the value, them solving a problem, rather than us getting the light to finally show off our product. A lot of people get this wrong in product tours, for example, where they have this huge feature walkthrough, but they didn't come out of the product or having done anything. And so they're back to square one where, okay, they know what you can do again, but they haven't done it. So it's getting the bigger picture of seeing how we're going to create exactly the steps we need to get them from signing up to solving their first problem.

And do you think, are you seeing companies change that flow based off things that were like filled out in the form or whatever else? Right. Because I would assume, right, people have different values that they're trying to hit. So like, is that like best class is somewhere in that sign up flow we're identifying a certain problem, we're identifying what's top of mind. So their flow is different than just the standard.

Definitely. There's two ways that this can be done. Either by straight up asking them. You know, I always say don't assume anything, just ask them. Sometimes people really appreciate it when you ask why are you here? And giving them an experience that you're asking them because you want to guide them quicker to value rather than you just want to get more data from them. So this is a tricky thing to get right, because it could come across as we're just asking you as many questions as we can and then the signup process just feels dragged out and unnecessary. But if it's done correct and the questions are phrased in a way where the user knows that this is going to get him quicker to what he's looking for, then it's actually exciting. Like one of my favorite examples is Canva here. And Canva is a PLG leader in every sense. And they ask such a simple question of why are you here or what are you going to be using Canva for? And they give you six examples by using it for a small business for personal design. And based on that, and I've tested this because I've had fun trying different onboarding flows. When you click on one, it shifts the templates that they show you completely and they really think for you. They get in your head and they know exactly what's going to what you want to see. And so that's a great question to ask. If you're going to ask for their phone number and business name and all these other questions, that's not something that's going to affect the workflow. So those are things that I would leave out of the personalization. But in terms of just asking them why they're here and exploring their use case, definitely there's also other ways that you can do that within leveraging the product itself, kind of having those questions through the way they navigate the product and seeing what features they're looking at and using the data there to, to personalize what they get sent next, whether that be in a messaging sequence or just the features that are naturally progressed.

Towards, you know, I think canvas such a good example because it is, it's like why are you here? What type of business are you? But are you doing Facebook ads? Are you doing, you know, brochures? And it guides it through, you know. But I think sometimes where then people goes like, well yeah, but it's canva like it's a very obvious thing of why I'm going to do that. My product's too technical, I can't do that. My product's too technical. So like are there products that you think are a better fit for PLG than others or is there really in your opinion like every company should be finding a way to pull this off.

Right?

Because there definitely are products where you know the value does take a long time to see or it's not like a daily use product. It's not something I'm going in to use every single day. So like what do you think are like the best opportunities to go PLG in terms of a product?

Yeah, this is moving into a completely a huge question and I like to break it down into three categories that each company has to ask themselves to see if PLG is the right fit for them. And there is a huge misunderstanding that complex products don't fit plg. That's not true at all. But there are certain things that don't work as well. So the three things are self servability, user motivation and permissions and accessibility. So let's go into those. A little self servability which is the usability of the product. Can this product be designed in a way that it's self servable, that it can educate the users without needing complex demos and really an education side of things to unpack the value. And there are products like that and it's not saying those products are bad, but the majority of products can at least in some aspect have a self servable motion. But it moves on to the next step is, and this is a key principle in product LED growth is that everything's focused on the end user. And so if the end user is not the one who's motivated to get the value out of the product, then it's also not the best fit for bottoms up. So let's take it in sales for example. There we could break different sales tools into two categories. One for managers, one for reps. Let's talk like that. So for managers they're going to be unpacking value, team analytics, overall, org health, these kind of functions, whereas the reps are going to help Them on the day to day prospecting workflows, whatever that is. In the second option, they're the reps themselves are going to be motivated to use the product, explore the product, expand the product in the Org, because they're going to get so much value. Whereas them using it in the first case to just get the value for their manager isn't the best bottoms up motion. That being said, the end user doesn't always have to be separate to the buyer, so it could be that the buyer is the end user and then the motivation is there as well, but the motivation has to be the end user. Then the third one is really just the technicality and it's quite an obvious one, is that if your product requires a heavy process of NDAs and intense integrations that require the highest level of access, that causes a huge block in the road. And not saying that it can't necessarily be navigated around, but it's something that definitely puts a roadblock in the way. So I'd say those three categories are the first place to start to ask yourself of could we be product led? That being said, product led can filter into the company at different stages as well. And it doesn't necessarily have to be the one true principle that we're following, the only strategy we're following. And when you break up the model into acquisition, retention and monetization, you can see we can be product led on retention even if we're not product led on acquisition. And that's something which a lot of companies don't think about. Most people have only discussed product led in the sense of acquisition, but retention and having these product led principles of unpacking user value and end user expansion, that's something that can be navigated down the line.

Yeah, No, I love that because, you know, it may not be, I guess in a way it's product led growth or is just product led expansion. Right. It's like are they getting the value, are they spreading the word? Are, are they using it on a regular basis? And so I think that is key is, you know, if the user. So then let's keep doing, going down this path because again sales teams then go, well yeah, but then who do I reach out to? So KD is a user, he's an ae, signs up for my tool in there and using it, who do I reach out to or how do I get that AE to bubble this up to their leadership team or to bubble this up internally. Right. So like because it's user focused, it's like how do you drive that expansion, Right. Or you know, there's two parts to this question. You know where this is going. One is like okay, how do we then expand if it's user based? But then two, when does sales get involved, if ever? Right. Like at what point does a salesperson step in to go, hey, you know, Yakov, five people on your team are already using us. We should probably have a conversation. Right? So how do you expand from user to decision maker or buyer?

Yeah, that's great. So there's so many angles to take it, which to unpack. I think I'd start with let's compare the traditional enterprise sales motion versus the more modern product led motion. So if we take a very high level view, the traditional sales motion was going from the buyer to the user. That means we would first find the buyer which would either be sales or marketing, and then move down the funnel again, sales or marketing, and eventually land in the product and get the usage and start unpacking value. So we're trying to land as big as deal as possible before they've even experienced anything in the product. Now we're going the other way around is that we're going from the user to the buyer. So they're landing in the product before they've talked to anyone, before they've had any interaction, sometimes with even marketing. So here is where the roles have shifted. So where marketing and sales, where the education and getting those initial interactions of them just knowing what they're in for product is doing that. So now they've landed in the product, they've signed up. How do we now drive expansion? So this also comes back to there's many subtopics here. But just one thing that comes to my mind is the alignment that needs to be between product leadership and sales leadership to even understand the different roles of packages and pricing. Because the packages are going to now have to be redesigned in a way that expresses increase in end user value rather than organization value. Even on the enterprise level, where classic motions, and I'm sure you've seen this in so many products, the enterprise model often just has organizational value, sso, high security, all these kind of things on a very high level. And now what we're seeing is that we're trying to have that natural escalator of user value to drive the expansion from a single plan to a team plan to even an enterprise plan, adding onto that user value. So unpacking more features, unpacking more value for the end user rather than the organization. And this is where it becomes a complete shift in qualification let's call it like that. So what we would normally understand of, you know, when you're on a sales call, you can navigate it, you can qualify them and see where am I pushing, who am I speaking to and what do they want. Now we have to do that through the product itself. That can be tricky. So we're going into the world now of PQLs and PQAs, letting the product be our qualification and our single source of truth. So first, taking a step back, what I've seen and I've spoken to a lot of sales leaders and product leaders, this is something that hasn't been solved yet. This is something that everyone is trying to figure out because there's no one size fits all and it's complicated. Getting this right is a continuous learning curve. And even once you have your scoring model set up for your PQLs, you're constantly trying to optimize that and learn it. So I'd say the first step is really having great data, clean data. And this is one of the reasons why product led growth is so popular today, is because of the accessibility. We have to get such beautiful insights into how users are interacting with our products so we can understand their depth so, so much just by their data and tell stories through it and understand exactly where they are on their journey. And that is what allows us to understand where sales fits in. So I'd say the challenges are twofold. One is that sales feels like maybe they're going to be, you know, products going to take their leads because it's just going to be qualifying themselves, but really it's the opposite. It's that the product is meant to be adding on leads, it's sending you leads. But what's been the experience of that is that they're getting either poor leads, the qualifications aren't set up well, so they're not, they're not getting that promise that, you know, this person, he definitely wants to buy and then they land and they still have to navigate through and they're starting from square one or they're wasting their time on users that would have upgraded anyway and that's just a huge waste of resources. So I'd say first thing is also to differentiate between product qualified leads and product product qualified accounts. The leads are, I'd say a basic definition would be a user that has activated and experienced the product value and shown intent of upgrade, has shown in his usage patterns in the, in the breadth of features that he's using and the frequency he's shown all these indicators and signals that, that he's a fit. He's a product qualified fit. Now an account is where is that the buyer, is the buyer involved there? So sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. Sometimes you're going to need outside help. You're going to need sales to navigate that within the organization or you're going to need marketing to find the buyer just like it used to. But it's coming from a completely different place. You're coming from a place of this is what they're currently facing, this is what they're interested in, this is how they're using it. And now expanding that, unpacking more value and really trying to focus on unlocking the value for them rather than selling it to them.

Yeah. And I think that's so key. Like I'm taking notes here because it's funny, like even before this, this calls prepping for, for my week. And one of the things like I wrote down is like, I need to make sure that product is being held to our lead to trial rate. Like my sales. Org is held to lead to trial. Right? How many leads do we get to trial? And a trial is defined by like, you know, connected their accounts or did whatever. I was like, that's not my metric. That, that should be products metric on how many leads can they get through that experience to connect their accounts and do the right things? I've already sent a note off to my CEO, this one. I was like, hey, are we, are we holding product to this right? Like as, as a benchmark to make sure that we're all aligned around the same metric. So let's take kind of a step back on that experience again. Like, I just love this, this word is what are you seeing as best practices to guide that experience to value? Like we use like the CANVA example a little bit, but it's like, I mean, I know personally I sign up for some things that are product led and I get in there and I'm like, well now it was right, like, so like how do you guide that experience? Right? Is that, is it videos? Are there tools out there that like, you know, can help show people where to click? Like, what are some of those best practices? So when people land into a product, they know what the hell to do because I definitely land in products and I go, all right, so let me, let me click over here real quick, see what that does. And like, I don't really know what I'm doing. So what are some of those experience best practices?

Yeah. So I'd say as a rule of Mine is that you have to think for your users, so you have to think as if you've never experienced this product before. And this is something super difficult. It sounds so simple, but it's so hard because we live day and night in our products and we assume it's so intuitive, which it's not. And when you land in a product, most people have that experience of, okay, now what? Like, let me just bounce around. And it is quite a scary metric to see how many leads land in the product and don't do anything productive. Yeah, they just ghost. And so I'd say the starting point would definitely be to prioritize an intuitive ux. But this is something that, that has limitations. There's. There's only so much you can do, there still has to be guidance. So some things that come to my mind, first thing is a very, very well designed empty state. This is something which a lot of companies don't take Advant and companies that do, they kill it. So one of my favorite examples for this is notion. When you land in the product, the empty state is beautiful. It guides you. Every single thing you have to do and every template you need. Any possible use case you could want to explore, and it's so simple to follow. You know exactly what the next step is you want to do. So whether that means having a big fat CTA right in front of your face of if there's one step you have to take, you need to make sure that they take that step. I've interacted with products that it's like something that is a key step and if they don't connect this or upload this, then they can't do anything and they don't make that easy to find. So it's like, no, your empty state has to be so intuitive and their next step has to be so clear. It just has to be that they click. They don't even have to move the mouse, they just click. So taking advantage of the empty state is crucial. And then leveraging tools like product tours, checklist, tool tips, these are things that, when done well, will make the world of a difference. And it all comes back to the same way of thinking, is that it's about unpacking value. So that's realistic workflows and use cases rather than feature showcasing. This is something that so many teams get wrong. And it's so easy to fall into the trap because you think, oh well, how are they going to know how to do this if they don't know how to use the features? It's like, no, that's not. That's not how it works. Obviously, they have to understand how to use the features, but more advanced feature usage is something that comes down the line. You want to make sure that they do it as fast as possible, just get them through the flow, and then when they experience that they can do it, they'll figure it out the next time. They'll know what they need to do. And if they get stuck on what feature, like, do I use for? They'll know exactly how to unpack it because they have the end goal in mind. But that's something that you can't make superficial or you can't fake. If they don't have that end goal in mind, they won't have the motivation to push through the next steps. So a product is a great way to actually take them through the steps of solving their problem and then having intuitive tooltips so that when they navigating through that process and they don't have to guess anything, it's just obvious to them. You want to make it so obvious. Make their lives as easy as possible. Do the thinking for them every step of the way.

I like that. And it's funny to me. I'm doing this with my own team right now. So I've been having meetings with product and marketing, and they're talking about making some changes to the flow. They're like, oh, we want to add this step in or change this here. And I was like, have. Have any salespeople gone through this yet? Like, can I go through this flow, please? Can my VP of marketing go? We. I want to experience it. And they said, well, no, yeah, we'll. We'll show. We'll. We'll. We'll show you what the steps are. I said, no, no, no. I don't want to see that. I want to experience it. I want to be a lead and feel what this feels like, because that will help me work with my sales team to say, okay, here's what we need to be talking about. Here's what we need to be saying. But the answer to that question had been no. No salespeople had gone through the actual lead onboarding flow. And I was like, you think that might be important? Maybe just a little bit that they understand what that flow is? And when I asked the question, CEOs on this call, my VP of marketing's on this call, everyone's like, yeah, like, could I do this? Like, could I? Like, I was like, we need that, y'. All. We need to know what it is. Because Funny enough, the company that I joined, Bench. Like, I almost became a customer of Bench back in the day. So, like, I. I went through the flow, and I remember being very confused at the end of, like, okay, now I'm in here. Well, now what? Right? Like, the. The how. What do I do now? Right? So we're doing a lot of work there to make that flow easier, more intuitive. But also, to your earlier point to value, it does no good for me to understand the product if I'm not getting value from the product. Right? Like, all right, cool. I have a good understanding, and I'm never gonna come back. So as. As we start to kind of wrap here, like, what are some of the other best practices you're seeing out there, right, from people that are doing it or some of the things that you've done with companies that you work with that have seen results with? What are some of those, like, kind of other best practices that you're seeing that really makes PLG work?

Well, yeah, and I'll use that as a continuation of what I was about to say to add onto your point of what you were mentioning about other people in your team hadn't even experienced the flow, people that aren't as invested in the product and don't know the product as intuitively. And so I'd say a best practice here is to take that a step further and to actually get real users to interact with it as quick as you can to test it. You want to be testing your each step as quick as possible. And this can be done through, let's say, a tool like hotjar, where you want to get heat maps, you want to get recordings and see them. But the best practice I've seen is speaking to users getting their feedback, because they're the ones who are having that experience when they land, and then they don't know what's going on. And even other people in the company, they still have some sense of deeper motivation to make it work. So they're thinking and they're doing, but we have to assume that our users are landing and don't want to think. They just. They just want to be like, give me the value. I don't want to do anything. Like, I'm the customer. Give it to me. And so I'd say the best practice is trying to always put the user first. In that sense, a real user getting their feedback, seeing their data, and using tools that can give you that insight, whether it be those heat maps or recordings, or actually going into your data and setting up the funnels and seeing each step and being responsible for each step, measuring each step, because you will see that users are getting stuck. One of, one of my favorite things at my previous company, we used to have a weekly hot job video of the week and it was great. Everyone loved it because whatever you say, whatever theories you have, watch how the users actually do it and it is humorous because you think that this flow is so intuitive, no one could mess this up. And then they clicking everywhere and they're getting stuck. They're refreshing the page. That is brilliant. So I'd say yeah, best practice is definitely to get as much feedback and that filters into. Let's take it a step back from just that initial onboarding, slow, but seeing that in every step of the way, feedback should be prioritized in the deepest sense across the organization. So one thing that I see that companies struggle with, but if you get this right, it's such a fuel for growth, is sharing feedback across departments. Because sales, the feedback they're getting should be affecting the product roadmap and the product data that the product managers are getting and analyzing should be affecting the way that CS is interacting with the customers and the next marketing campaign. So one of the key factors of product led growth, and I love writing about this, is that product led growth is not a product thing. This is a huge misconception. It's not a product strategy, it's a company strategy. And everyone has to be aligned because each department has a unique responsibility that filters through the product. But it's not product's responsibility to own everything. And this is where it gets quite tricky because it's true that these departments have kind of become blurry and merged and product is responsible for some things that sales were responsible and vice versa. So it gets tricky with this and if there is this feedback loop across the organization and it is fantastic for team alignment and fueling each other's responsibilities, helping each other grow. And everyone just grows so much quicker. So what I loved at my previous company, we were of a small team and so everything was shared. We knew every customer meeting that was had and we watched the recording. We were so up to date with what users were saying and how they were saying it through the different lenses and that it just gave us such an appreciation of what we had to do next.

No, I think that's so key. And I'm experiencing this already like, you know, with my new company is just, you know, it's big, you know, so people, things get lost in. I, you know, I love that weekly hot jar of like watch it because as you also know you can ask for feedback. But even when you ask for feedback, what people say they did oftentimes is very different than what they actually did. They're like yeah, I got in there and I clicked here. Well the, the screen will show they clicked five other places first. Right. And we're clicking around and couldn't find things. So I love that and that communication, it is actually one of the things I want to rally my orgs around so much more is I want product and marketing and sales to be talking about this flow every single week. What are we seeing? How are we optimizing it, right? Like we are getting thousands of free trial requests. Why are we not getting thousands of activated trials? They are quite literally coming in for the trial. Why are we not getting more of them to activate that trial and really experiencing that. So now this is, this is great man. Like I think this is so key because what I believe with you know, sales where it's going, people have to experience the product. Like if, if you really think about how far SaaS has come, it's actually pretty comical if you think about it of like we're selling 100,000 multiple six figure contracts to people that have never experienced the thing that they're going to buy. Whereas like if I'm buying a car I get to test drive it, if I'm buying a house, I get to tour it, right? Like I get to look at a menu at a rest. Like everything else that we buy that's expensive we get to experience. Software has somehow stayed outside of that for so long and now that time has come where people are like no, I want to experience this. I want to make sure this will do what it can.

That's where a lot of the uncomfortability with the new ideas in product LED growth comes from is because this motion always existed in B2C always. But and you know this try before you buy model and it makes so much sense like who's going to pay? And some people close these seven figure deals of the just an assumption that this is going to be the right fit for my product and changing that idea to we can apply this to B2B motion and it requires a lot more complexity because you're not just selling to one person but if you get it right you be able to apply the benefits to a business and you're selling to a business now. So that's something that definitely needs to be worked on.

Yeah, no, it's good, it's going to happen and the Companies that embrace it and are messing up now are going to be the ones that win in the long run. At least they're trying. They're figuring things out, they're testing it, getting involved with the user. So. All right, my man. Well, before we wrap, I've got one question left for you, right, because the name of this podcast is Live Better Sell Better. Because I have this weird idea, right, that if we took better care of ourselves, if we lived better, had more energy, more joy, more fulfillment, that the sales would also improve. What would your Live better advice be for people listening?

Well, I love this and I try to keep it short because something that is interesting to keep on the topic of product led growth is I'm kind of in the process of applying this to my life. And the way I call it is called self led growth. Something that I'm very passionate about and I've delved a lot into in my own self work is the idea of ifs. This is a psychological technique where you break up your subconscious into parts and label the experiences way back from your childhood into parts that are now experiencing the present moment, but through the lens that they were back then. And just that idea of breaking yourself up into parts and understanding your different motivations and different feelings and seeing that through, I call it self led growth is viewing different character traits, viewing different goals in your life, all these things that yourself should be the primary driver of acquiring and retaining those things. And so getting into a deep connection with yourself to then understand how to get those parts, to experience the value of the character traits and the value of reaching those goals as quick as possible. Because something that I've seen is when you start to experience the benefits of changing your life, it becomes so much easier to want to expand that and keep growing in that. And so, you know, funny example, I used to be a music teacher. I was very passionate about it. And a classic example is you want to teach these kids, adults a song as quick as possible. They're there to learn how to jam, they're not there to learn how to play notes. So if you can get them to jam their favorite song as quick as possible, they're going to be motivated to keep going. So I'd say for live better, sell better is find ways that whatever you're trying to take on in your life, find ways that you can access the benefits as quick as possible, unpack the value as quick as possible, because that's going to give you that sense of motivation to continue and leveraging yourself. We have so much unlimited potential within ourselves to do that. And so unpack the value of yourself and get to your value as quick as possible.

I love that. And it's also a bit of fun in there. They want to jam so they start having fun. They're more likely to continue, continue with it. Whereas if they're just sitting there doing scales and breath work and finger work over and over and over again, it's no longer fun.

They stop.

So I love this idea because it is. It's like where can you get little wins and let them build up to it? So we might have to touch base more on the self led growth. I love this. And splitting the, the subconscious into parts. Like I'm really into that type of thinking as well. So we might have to do a part two on that one. But my man, where, where can people find more of you? Where are you putting out content? Like how can they get in touch with you? Because this was some really stuff.

Thank you, I appreciate it. I'd start following me on LinkedIn. That's where I'm trying to post as much as possible. I've just put out the first version of my website. None of my content's really there. I'm still putting it all together. But just as I approach product development, you want to get things out as quick as possible and improve them as you go along. So I've got the landing page. You can sign up to my newsletter, valuable.com booking a free strategy call if you want to see if PLG is the right fit for your company. And stay posted because big things are coming.

Let's go, let's go. Thank you so much, man. This was what I was hoping was for to be and more like I hope people got value from this. And we'll, we'll be in touch man. Because now I'm back in it. I'm back in the game and I'm doing product led. So there's a lot of things to learn in the test. So you'll be hearing from me again soon, my friend.

Nice. I look forward to that. Thank you so much. This is awesome.