Power of Authenticity: Lessons for the Woman in Leadership with Katy McFee

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Thank you so Much. I'm excited to be here.

This is going to be a good one. And so what I want to start with is just looking at your background and is your story. At what point did you decide, okay, now it's time to help others? You were cruising, right? Vp, evp, right. Getting ready made for that C in front of the name, and then this hard pivot to then helping others. So walk me through that pivot. Walk me through that decision making.

Yeah, it's interesting. So the first sales job I ever had, I knew I wanted to be a VP Sales one day, and I looked at my VP sales, who was. Who was a man. Like, he was. He was. He was like a typical, like, alpha male, but great guy. And I was like, oh, I want to be like you when I grow up. So I spent like a lot of my career trying to, you know, carve that path for myself. But I did struggle a lot along the way. Like, it was not a graceful rise. And so. And so I thought a lot, like, I spent a lot of time. I joke that I thought about this more than any person on the planet, just about, like, what. What allows some people to break through to leadership and to. And to really thrive there, while others never cross that chasm. And so once I became an evp, it's interesting because I had a great job. I had an awesome boss. Like, our CEO was a great human. I felt very valued, it was lucrative. But I started to realize that I felt unaligned. Like, I just didn't feel that I was doing enough in the world, which maybe sounds kind of silly, maybe a little. It was my midlife crisis, but. And so I started to take stock of what did I really love doing? Like, you know, all of the things that you do as a senior leader, what were the things that really, like, got me to jump out of bed in the morning and what were the things that really drained my energy? And I realized that the mentor calls that I was doing for free were actually my favorite part of the day because I was mentoring a few women, you know, outside of my company and within. And so this was a really interesting realization for me because I was like, wow, there's all this. This is this job that I worked to get for many years. And. And really, the thing that makes me most excited is the idea of working with women and helping women. So that was that spark that, you know, initiated months of thinking and deliberating and deciding to make this change.

I love that because it is. It's in theme of just like, that pain Attention, that self awareness, what lights me up. Right. Where do I get the most joy? I work with a coach and actually on my desk here, have a start and stop doing list. Like, these are things I want to start, but like, more importantly, what are the things you want to stop doing? What are the things that just drain you day to day? Can you find a way to stop doing those things? And so let's kind of keep on this path. Right. So what do you think led to your ability to break in first? Let's go there. First of like, okay, so you're coming up in sales. You're like, I want to be a vp. And you did it how? What are some of the things that you think you did, whether differently or more of or more strategically that allowed you to get to that level?

Yeah. So for each person, it's going to be a little bit different. I kind of think of, you know, what was holding me back. So there was a few things that, that were holding me back because I was trying to get there. Like I was asking to be a vp, you know, weekly. So the things that were holding you back first, I had some limiting beliefs holding me back, which were holding me back from really showing up as the best version of myself, I guess is the best way to put it. I think I was just so afraid of not being like these other guys on the team that I was reluctant to just bring my sort of full, authentic self to work. When you do that, I think you're not able to really shine. The second thing that was holding me back was, was a perception issue. And this is what I work with lots of clients on. I was not showing up as, as a senior leader. And I realize that now. In retrospect, I didn't realize it at the time, but simple, you know, relatively simple things like the way I framed ideas or the way I presented strategy to. To. To my boss was just. Was not creating that perception in him and the rest of the leadership that I should be a VP or I should be an evp. And the third thing was I think I spent too much time focused on my weaknesses and not just leaning into my strengths. And I remember my boss even saying to me, like, what do you think's better to focus on your. To, you know, build your weaknesses or to focus on your strengths? And at the time I was like, I can't. I can't not grow these areas where I'm weak. And in retrospect, that was probably the wrong. I probably spent like so much time and effort focused on that When. When. What really allowed me to, like, you know, hit the gas as a senior leader was when I was able to hire.

Yes.

Compliment my skills so that I could do what I was really good at. And then I had, like, a right hand who was doing the stuff that maybe I wasn't as good at.

Yeah. And I love that call out because it's the truth. Right. And you mentioned two things in here is that it was very subtle, but one of the first things you said is that you were asking. You were asking for that role. And they have studied this, they've gone into this. That minority and women tend to ask for it less. Right. I mentor quite a few women in this space, too. And what I hear more often than not from them than my male mentees is I'm just gonna let the numbers speak for themselves.

Yeah.

And I always gotta be like, so numbers don't talk. You need to speak for yourself. You need to ask for what it is that you want. And so I wanted to call that out as one piece of this is making sure that you ask. If this is something that you want, you have to ask for it. You have to ask for that feedback. You have to ask for that path and to go through it. And then now let's talk about strengths and weaknesses, because I agree there too. Focusing on the strengths get you further. How did you identify? Like, how did. Like, a lot of the theme here is around, like, self awareness, which I'm loving. How did you identify, like, what your strengths were? Like, those kind of unique, you know, areas of genius. Walk me through that a little bit.

Yeah. I mean, so I probably have two sort of superpowers, like, things I'm really good at. The first one is the people side.

And I always.

I always. That was something that I've always known was a strength of mine. And people have told me this for a long time. That's why I was good at sales and. And my. My boss at the time when I was trying to get through to BP and I wasn't progressing, would say, you're great with people, but you're not strategic. And I was like, what does that mean? I'd be googling, like, what is strategic? Like, reasonably intelligent person. I'm educated, but I was like, I don't understand what this person wants of me. I'm, like, reading books. And it turned out, and I only really realized this as I started to get access sort of to more resources. So I'll give an example. When I. When I moved to my next company, I was able to hire a director of sales ops who was able to get me a lot of useful data. And when I started to dig in, I realized I'm actually really good at like, connecting the dots and finding trends and figuring out patterns and understanding how to leverage those to build a winning strategy. But in my previous role, I didn't really have access to that. And so there was like this hidden superpower that I wasn't able to tap into because I didn't have the resources, I didn't have the people. And so it seemed like I just wasn't that good at this sort of analysis, strategic piece. But in fact, as soon as I had something to work with, it was actually probably one of my, my biggest strengths. So part of it, I think does, you know, doesn't matter where you are, but, you know, you hit it on the head when you just talked about being introspective. I think a lot of us just go through life and sort of see what happens. And we don't spend a lot of time thinking about stuff like, what am I really good at? You know, how do I leverage that? And perhaps had I just gone straight up to vp, maybe I never would have done that. My struggle was kind of a blessing in a way because it forced me to really think about, you know, what does it take to get to this level? Where am I falling down? How do I, you know, how do I compliment that or supplement that? And yeah, had I had a really easy journey to the top, I might have never taken the time to do that.

That's true. And I love there's little things that you're doing in this conversation I want to come back and highlight for people because you did something else that a lot of just people in general, not just women, not just minorities don't do. Is you opened up with these are things I'm good at and being okay saying that. So often we are taught, you know, be, be humble, don't be both. Whatever else, it is okay to say, I'm good at this. This is something I am good at. And not downplaying, not saying, look, I'm all right, or, you know, it's something that I do well. Like, I want you all to rewind back and listen to how she feel. Like, I'm good at this. Like, I know I'm good at this. And that is another place that I think is very important in leadership as you continue to move up, is like that self belief has to be there before you can get other people to believe in you. Like, if you don't believe you're good at it and know it like, yes, you can be good at something and still need to improve. Those are completely different things. But just I love that because I wish more people as they're trying to get into leadership and then once they're there like, and they know it and.

They believe it, it's a tough thing because women face this thing called the likability backlash. I don't know if you've heard this before, but essentially when women advocate for themselves or negotiate for a higher salary, we are seen as less likable. And so, and so we, and so like there's this intuitive perception that your brain is like, don't go there, use qualifiers or off in your speech or whatever it might be. And so it's like this double edged sword. Whereas if you don't advocate for yourself and you don't, you're not, you're not willing to tell people what you're good at, that does not serve you. But at the same time you have to deal with this weird psychological phenomenon called the likability backlash where you know, as a woman, people expect you to be collaborative and to be nurturing and not to put yourself first. And so I talk to women about this a lot. To me, it's really the way you frame things that helps you get around that. So if you do, because it is important to advocate for yourself, if you don't do it, chances are no one else is going to. And so finding a way to say that and still have people like you, I guess, which maybe shouldn't matter, but it does, right? Especially if someone's, if you want someone to promote you, then it matters. So it's a difficult topic.

So can you keep going down that? Is there a way to do that? How do you frame it? Because there's walking the line of likability. How do you suggest that? So when you talk about asking for the role or asking for a raise, how do you try to frame that language in a way where it's clear what you're asking for? The confidence is there, but you're walking that line in terms of perception. How do you do that?

Yeah. So oftentimes I recommend framing things using more objective facts than subjective language. So for example, hey, I really want a raise because, you know, everyone else is making more money than me and I feel like I'm not valued, that type of ask is generally not going to go over well. Whereas if you can say, hey, I've done some research, you know, I love this role, I Love being able to help other people and contribute to the company. But I do see that, you know, based on the numbers, I'm underpaid. And I've also looked at some peer to peer salary review and it looks like I'm under the bar. So I'd love to see how we can correct this. So it's like collaborative language around working with somebody to fix a problem versus making it really personal.

No, I like that framing there. Because then also, then too, especially when the language of like, I don't feel valued comes in is when that starts to feel like an attack to the person you're talking to, even though that's not the point of it. It's like, well, no, but I do value. And now it's an argument about whether you are valued, not a conversation about whether or not you should be making more. And it distracts where the conversation's going to go. It's like, no, you are valued though. What do you mean? It's like, no, no, this is about the pay. And now it turned into something different. And so that's also like a good call out to make there. So. All right, so let's keep making this way. We started with the self awareness, then we got to making sure you're asking with it, focusing on your strengths, getting rid of beliefs. Right. Limiting beliefs. Now you're there. Right. And you've already been kind of talking about some of the differences of, you know, being a woman in a leadership position. So what are some of the things that you, you know, coach your, your clients on and then you saw in your career, like, this is what allowed you to thrive because there's getting to it and then there's thriving. You'd mentioned that like a little bit earlier in the conversation. So you get there. Doesn't mean you thrive in it. Right. So now let's talk about how do you thrive as a woman in leadership?

Yeah. I'd say one of the biggest things that I learned was really to just lean into like my authentic self because I think there was a belief it wasn't, it was, it was more subconscious. But this idea that I had to act like the guys in the room in order to, to be welcome. And I found that like my biggest asset or one of my biggest assets was the fact that I was different at a different perspective. I had a different lived experience. And so when I really shared that and led with that even, it was well received and appreciated. Right. So it's like, now you've got your seat at the table, you're not fighting for it anymore. So, like, own it, right? Really own. Really own your seat at the table. And that could look like advocating for other women at the company. Like, I did that a lot. And I have to say, generally speaking, the men in the room with me appreciated that because they had never. Oftentimes people are good people. They want to be good leaders. They want to be inclusive. They've just never thought of something that way. They've never thought about the fact that, oh, we're going to do after. After work, drinks. Guess what? Half the staff or a quarter of the staff has young kids at home. They need to be home for dinner. And so this is. This is actually not including them or, you know, so. And so is coming back from that leave. We don't have anywhere for her to pump at the office. So let's think about that, right? Let's. Let's make this comfortable for this person. So that was a big one. Was really just like, owning who I was and the experience that I lived and not being, like, I guess, ashamed of it, because initially, again, I. It's so crazy to think about, but I remember being, like, very pregnant and going to a conference and thinking like, oh, everyone's gonna know I'm pregnant. But, like, it's okay to have children.

Yeah, it is.

It's wonderful, in fact. And so I really had to, like, that was something I had to get over and really be like, no, I'm just. This is who I am. I'm gonna own this.

I'm here for a reason.

So. So, I mean, I would say that's a big one. Another one would. Would be continuing to think about the framing piece. This is a big one, I would say, with people in general, but especially with women. And it's because we are oftentimes conditioned to soften our language, to use qualifiers when we speak, or even to frame an idea as a question.

I was hoping you were going to get to this because this happens so much. Yes. Keep going.

And so this is something that I think is really important at every level. So whether you're trying to get to the leadership level or you're there and you want to show up as a leader, people respect and listen to the way that you frame your ideas is super important. And so part of that comes down to just being well prepared. I work with lots of women on this. Like, we will prep for these important meetings, and the first step is just being, like, very well prepared in terms of your material. We work on how the material is presented. So I don't know if you've heard of the Minto Pyramid, but this is funny because I just learned about this framework recently. The idea is, start with the answer yes and then work down from there. And I've been telling people for years, start with the punchline, don't work up to it. And then I realized, oh, a consultant at McKinsey had made this, like, a really useful picture. So that's a key element, which a lot of women I see do the opposite. If you think about it, when you're talking to your buddy, you're telling a story, you're like, yeah, so I was walking down the street the other day and then I, like, I was going to the store and then I saw Joe, and Joe, like, had this dog with him. And I was like, where did the dog come from? And then at the end, it's like, he's getting married, you know, or whatever is. You work to this punchline, but when you do that in business, it's not well received.

So I have a KD operating guide. So I legit have like the unofficial guide of working with kd, right? And I share with my managers, my teams, my cross functional partners of, like, this is, you know, how I communicate, how I prefer to be communicated with, like, all this. And the very first bullet point under how to communicate with me, direct and straightforward. I can struggle staying patient if the story or example is rambling. I'm all for a good journey or story, but I like things to get to the point. I may ask you to start with the end so I know the middle is worth listening to. That's the very first bullet point on my operating. So it's like, okay, the close rate's 13%. Now talk to me about the why. I don't know if I should be listening or not. So I love that call. What's. What was the name of this pyramid?

The Minto Pyramid. So the interesting thing is most people, and especially leaders, like to be communicated with this way. However, we're conditioned to speak the opposite way, right? And so it's just the idea. We talked about intentionality already. It all goes back to intentionality with me. So it's being intentional about the way you are presenting this data or this strategy or whatever it might be, so that you start with the punchline, then your major supporting facts, and then all those details. So that's the second thing, which is just the framing piece. And then the third, as I mentioned, is this idea using qualifiers, speaking, softening your language, posing things as a question. I see People do this all the time. I see. Especially women do it where I think we're. I think it's like a kind of a fear of coming off too strong qualifier. Could be. Well, I'm not exactly an expert in this, but I think that blah, blah, blah. Right. Or it could be, you know, what would you think if we did something like this? And in fact, it's like this person feels very strongly about this idea. They've thought through, you know, all of the facts, and yet when they present it, it sounds like, you know, here's an idea, give or take, you know, take it or leave it. And that often just won't get the response that you want.

Oh. Like you're. You might as well have been sitting like third wheel at a dinner I had with one of my mentees a couple months ago. And this is exactly what came up. And what I asked her is like, are you stating or suggesting? Because a lot of this sounds like you're suggesting. I think we should. That is not. You are the VP now. The VP has to decide, not suggest. So if you're suggesting, what that's creating now is they have to keep giving the stamp of approval on your decisions. And now it feels like it was their decision. Yeah. Not yours. And so it's like, there's places to suggest and ask for feedback, but there's other times to state, this is what we're doing, this is how we're going to move forward versus suggesting. Right. Those. The word that keep coming up there right when you're giving the qualifiers is think. I think we should. Yeah, think this is how it should work. What do you think about this versus I've done the research. I know what the issue is. Here's what we're going to do. Any feedback on it? That's a totally different way of. This is how we're going to do it. Any feedback on it. And so I want to take one step back here. I think this is important because, you know, you were talking about, you know, learning about yourself and being your authentic self. And like, the phrase was like, you know, so eventually I just had to get over it. Were there steps you took to get over. Were there steps you took to lean into the authentic self? Right. Because that's a topic I think is incredibly important. And it gets written about. Right. Just be yourself. And people like, yeah, but then they go, but how? Like, so, like, what steps did you go to? To like, hey, like, no, like one. Who you are authentically is a whole different question. Like, how do you Know what your authentic self is. But, like, what steps did you take to really start to own that, to. To bring that up and to lean into that a little bit more.

So some of it was more symbolic for. So, like, how maybe I would dress at work, so old Katie would have still dressed, you know, more conservatively, kind of business casual. Like, maybe I'd wear jeans, but I would. I would always dress. Dress up a little bit. Even though at home I'm like, I'm a ripped jeans girl all the way. Like, that is my whole life. I've been made fun of it my whole life. But, like, that's what I like. That's, like, the style I like. And so some of it was. That was, like, little stuff like that. Like, just these, like, little symbolic things. When I felt like I was dressed as myself and I was. I would act more like myself. Another one for me was not holding back, I guess. Right? So two things, really. One is, you know, I've got lots of opinions, and I think that's a good thing about me. But I used to think that was maybe a weakness or something that I had to hold back a little bit. And it was likely because when I looked around the table, I worked with a lot of. A lot of men that were older than me on the leadership team, and. And they were also introverted, pretty. I think they were all introverts except me. And so if you think about it, when I was looking at my example, it did not look like me. I was always too, like, bubbly and loud and too much, in a way. And so that was part of it was just being okay with that. And the other thing is, at heart, I'm a big believer in just, like, kindness and, like, I love everyone. I want to help everyone. Like a little bit of, like, a hippie inside. And that was another thing that in business, I was kind of, I guess, embarrassed about where I thought, you know, you have to be, like, straight and professional, and there's no emotion in this. And. And so I think I also held that back a little bit. And then, you know, when I really started to be like, screw this. Part of it was I just. I started to get older and think, forget it. I am who I am and I want to be this person. So that was definitely an element of it, which is why I love to work with women, ideally to do this sooner in their lives. But, you know, I thought, this is who I am, and if people don't like it, well, you know, that's too bad. I'm not Hurting anybody. And so I just leaned into all of those aspects of who I really was. And, you know, to my pleasant surprise, people liked it. Right? People were okay with it more than okay with it.

So it's crazy how being authentic seems to be so rare now that people will thank you for it.

Yes.

Like, half of the feedback I get from when I'm on stage and I'm presenting half of the feedback I get from people's. Thank you for being real.

Yeah.

Thank you for being you. And it's like, when did that become such a rarity that someone would literally thank you for being you? Not the content, not the fact that I taught you how to maybe close more revenue. It's like, thanks for keeping it real. And you're like, you're welcome.

Yes. That's the number one thing I have received in terms of messages on LinkedIn. The things that I'm thanked for consistently are being vulnerable and authentic. And the interesting thing is anybody can be that. It just requires. There's no skill.

It is. It's crazy to me around that, but it is. It's just something. Again, you've mentioned it a couple times. Like, you know, we're conditioned to. We're taught to. We're told to talk a certain way, be a certain way. And it just. I can't remember where I read it, but it was like, everyone is faking it for everyone else. Like, no one is being themselves because they're trying to impress someone else who is not being themselves because they're trying to impress someone else who's not being them. Like, no one's actually being themselves. So who are you trying to impress? Right. And I like, I love the concept there. So I want to take a hard pivot here real quick, because as we start to wrap up around this topic is how do you know if it's the environment or you? Because I think this is important to address as well. You're into a leadership role or you're not getting the role that you want. How do you separate whether it's okay? Maybe I'm not doing the thing? Like, maybe I'm not being my authentic self. Maybe I haven't been asking. Maybe I'm not. Like, it's a skill deficit versus you actually are in an environment that is not supportive or conducive for women in leadership. How do you. You know, this is a heavy question, but I think you get what I'm going for is like, how do you know when it's like, okay, it's time to go somewhere? Else versus Wait. I actually do need to work on myself a little bit more to get to that level.

Yeah, this was a hard one for me because I'm a determined person. And so when I was stuck in this, I was. I say stuck in a director role. A director role is still great. But I was trying really hard to become a vp, and it wasn't happening. And I was, like, banging my head against the wall for five straight years. I was just like, I'm just gonna keep trying. And so all about to say I might not be the best person to answer this question because it took me a while to figure it out. But I think there are some clues. Like, one of the biggest clues for me was that I recognized that I wasn't showing up as my authentic self in this place. But I was unable to make that change. Like, I. I was just un. I didn't feel. I guess I said I didn't feel I could be myself based on my interactions with other people. The culture was. Was a culture that just didn't work for me. I think. I think it could have worked for other people. And, you know, it did. But it's like one of those things where I had to get over my own stubbornness and just realize, like, it's not going to happen for you here. There's oftentimes clues, too, from your boss and from other people where they're saying, like, my boss was saying to me, like, you might never be a vp. Okay, yeah, but I'll just keep trying. You know, he wasn't saying you never will, but he was saying, you know, there's a chance that you won't. And so if your boss is saying stuff like that, they're probably not going to promote you, and writing is on the wall. There was also, you know, conversations I had talking about the importance of diversity in leadership. And the feeling there was like, this is a meritocracy. We will. We will promote the best person. And if that's a woman, great. If it's not, fine. And that, to me, is actually kind of a red flag. It makes sense on a. On a purely logical level. It's like, yeah, of course it's a meritocracy. We should only promote the best people. But it's also generally a sign that you're not prioritizing diversity.

Yeah.

And it's really easy because something like Mary talked, the best person is a subjective, you know, decision. And so when. When the people at the top are not like you and that's what they're saying, then that might be a sign that, that you want to go somewhere that's more intentional about, you know, having a diverse leadership team.

Yeah, I think. And it's the intention. Back to that word. It's my favorite word. Intention is my favorite word. My team knows this. Like, my, my leaders knew this. Like, our theme for 2021 was execution with intention. Like, because most people don't succeed in life because they just don't execute. They just don't do the things they know they need to do. But then even worse, will execute without intention. We'll make the call, but not with intention. We'll have the one on one, but not with intention. Right. Like, we'll be with our significant other, but not with intention. So it's like, yeah, you're executing, but the intention is missing. And it is, it's. So you have to do it on purpose. It doesn't happen on accident. If you're trying to build a diverse team, you have to do it on purpose to go through it. And I love that breakdown of like, I mean, obviously if they're saying, hey, you're never going to be a vp, well then, yeah, all right, Clear signal there. But it's like it is when, if you're asking for that feedback, if you're asking for, well, how could I develop into what, what are the skill gaps? Right? And what happens often is when you ask people for skill gaps, if they give you true skills to work on, good. If they give you characteristics, bad. So skill gap, you know, the ability to connect the dots between data and strategy is an area I'd like you to focus. Okay. Being more strategic, that's a characteristic, that's not a skill gap. Right. Being more assertive, being less confrontational. If the feedback is ever characteristic based, it means there's, there's a wall there because it's hard. Like, that's a perception for characteristic where. If it's skill based, though, that's what I work with my mentees on to listen for, is if you're asking for feedback and they're giving you skills, then you probably do need to work on those skills. They're giving you characteristics. And I don't know if you have the, you know, executive presence that we need.

Oh, my gosh, I love that you're saying this because I, I have conversations around this all the time. And during that time that I was at this company trying to be a vp, that this is the exact feedback I got. You're not strategic, you need to be more strategic. And I, and I was you know, practically begging for or something tangible that I could work on.

Right.

I was like, just tell me what to do, I will do it. You want me to take a course, you want me to read a book, you want me to develop something, I will do it. But I wasn't given any more direction than this. I'll know when you're there, be more strategic. And I oftentimes will tell the folks I'm working with that to me points to a perception problem that means it's not a skill gap. And so I love that you're saying that because we're so aligned. It's the same type of messaging and so that could mean that you have to go somewhere else or it could mean that you could work on your perception there. And that's really up to the person. I think if they, if they think that there's, the environment is going to be conducive to them, you know, working on that. But yeah, I totally agree with you and I love that the way that you frame that, which is if it's characteristic based, that's how, you know skill is easy, right?

Oh, we need you to be more strategic. Love it. What are some examples of where I could be more. If they can't give you the how, the how isn't there, you're not going to be able to pull it off. And with that though, it is important too around performance. One of my mentees, this was actually two years ago now, she shot me attaches. I'm leaving, leaving the company. Like, you know, they just gave like my, you know, co manager a promotion and I didn't get a promotion, like they're holding me back like and just go da da da da. And you know, shot her back, you know, a pretty short text message which was, did you earn a promotion? Did you earn it? She said, well, what do you mean? I said, was your performance better than your co manager? Well, no. Are you the best manager in the manager group? Well, I do. No, no, no. Are you the best, are you the best one in that group and do the numbers support that? Well, no. So then don't, don't blame if it's there now. If you had been number one manager and had been there the longest and it was clear your performance was above bar and then they gave it to somebody else, different story. But don't create a story that doesn't exist. Like, and that was something to. I did, I pulled her back a little bit because she was ready to go down that path. I was like, you weren't the number one manager.

Yeah, it's a really interesting topic too, is there is sometimes bigger desire to maybe blame a little bit. And even with my former boss, I don't think this person was trying to hold me back. I think he. He didn't know how to tell me how to get to the next level. That is my true belief. Like, I think had I been showing up as the VP I wanted to be, would he have made me a vp? Probably. But he didn't know how to tell me to get from point A to point B.

Right.

And a lot of people don't, like, they recognize something great when they see it, but they may not have that deep knowledge that's required to say, this is how you work on this and this is how you work on that. Like, you know, I actually take. And I am a person who takes things up face value. But when he said, I'll know when you're there, I think that was probably true.

Right. He just didn't know how to get you there. And that's the difference between good leadership and great leadership is great leadership can help get you there, develop that skill in you versus just telling you, here's where you have to get better, and then you gotta go do it on your own. So. All right, this has been amazing. So I got. I got one last question for you. Before I knew there was no way I was gonna keep this to 30 minutes. There was no way.

Right?

Here we go. We're over top. But it is what it is. But the parting question here, right, is, you know, the name of this podcast is Live better Sell Better. Because I have this weird idea, you know, that if we lived better, if we took better care of ourselves, we had more joy, more energy, more fulfillment, that sales and leadership would get better because of that. What would your live better advice be for people listening?

Oh, that's a big one. Okay. To me, again, it all goes down to. It goes back to intentionality. So creating the life that you want to live, both inside work and outside of work. And so that can look like lots of things, right? It can look like more time with my family or recently I had an epiphany that I need to walk in trees more because that's something I get so much out of doing that. And I think when you focus on your overall life and your overall well being. I'm with you. It. It definitely translates into you bringing your best self to work because you're not depleted, you're not overstressed, you know, you're healthy and Happy. So one of the things that I get people to do is I'll ask. I do sort of like a wheel of life inventory with them. Like, look at all these different areas of your life. How satisfied are you on a scale of 1 to 10? And this is something I do myself every, like, six months. So, like my relationship, right? Like being a mom or my passions and creativity, like, how would I, how would I rate these things? And when things are really low, I ask myself, like, is this something that's important to me and should I, should I put some more time into it? So that's something that's worked really well for me.

I love it. Back to that self awareness and then living with intention. Where am I at? And being honest, right? Like, where am I at health wise, where am I at relationship wise? And going, okay. But I love how you prefaced it too. It's like, well, is this important to me? And is it more important to me than maybe another spoke on that wheel right now? Because you can only give so much energy at a time. It's like, you know what? Okay, you know what? I don't need to be ripped right now. Yeah, it'd be nice. It would be nice, but that's not the priority. So as long as I can maintain here for a bit while I'm focusing somewhere else and it's okay to say, like, that isn't a priority. It's when we try to make everything a priority that it all starts to fall apart. So, Katie, this was amazing. Where can people find more of you? Where can they reach out? How can they get in touch? Because this is amazing. And I got like nine names that I'm going to send to you, like, right after I want you to work with. Where can people get more Katie McPhee in their life?

Yeah, so I do post every day on LinkedIn, so there's lots of free content there just under my name, Katie McPhee. And there's also, like, on my, on my profile page, my services and stuff are there. And then I also have my website, so it's insightstoactioncc.com and yeah, you can find, you can find more of me there. So feel free to hit me up if you want to have a chat. I'm always happy to meet new, great people.

Hell yes. Thank you so much for this. It was amazing. It far exceeded even my expectations around it. This was phenomenal. I appreciate you so much, Katie.

Aw, you too. Thank you.