Practice Coaching Sets the Tone for Better Sales Conversations with Jordana Zeldin

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I am so glad to be here. Thank you.

Long time coming. And that's my fault. I'm just dropping the ball on, like, staying in touch with things.

But thanks. That's okay. You've had a lot going on.

Just a little bit. Just a little bit. But the reason why people love this show is we get right into it. No backstories, no nothing. Let's talk about practice, right? And I'm going to start with kind of a heavier question here. Why don't you think more sales teams practice as much as they should?

It's such a good question. And if I can just for a moment get a little bigger picture and just kind of get people to realize how crazy it is that as salespeople we are expected to absorb information about how to do something on podcasts or LinkedIn or books or training or whatever, and then are expected to then just figure out how to do it in absence of practice and then deliver results with those newly learned sales skills in the moment where the stakes are highest, when we're on the phone with prospects with revenue on the line. And that is crazy, right? And what's so interesting is that that is the status quo, right, in our industry. And I'm not sure exactly why kind of sales can't as an industry evolved in this way, but there's always been this, like, sense almost like, I don't know, from the 1940s, 50s, that you just like, got good from doing it, like from the act of selling without a lot of consideration for, like, what are the behaviors, what are the very specific skills that make for really effective selling? And how do we break those down just like athletes and musicians right into practiceable pieces and do them? And I think as an industry, that's just not how we've thought about sales skills. You kind of either have it or you don't. And then managers, I don't think in my travels really have been equipped to know how to effectively practice coach, which is different from coaching with a capital C, question based, reflective and all of that stuff.

So we're going to go down some rabbit holes here real quick because this is a question that's top of mind for me. And I was actually dabbling with this right before COVID jacked everything up, the difference between a manager and a coach. And I was actually Dabbling with the idea of like, well, what if I had managers and I had coaches? Because finding a manager that can also manage and coach is really hard. Those are different skill sets. Right. So what do you think separates a manager from a coach?

That's a great question. And I want to make the distinction between like again, coaching, what I call coaching with a capital C. Question based reflective, where you don't have the answer but you're kind of guiding the person that you're coaching to figure it out for themselves and practice coaching, which feels fundamentally different for me. If we think about like the great sports coaches, right? They're not saying like, so what was it that you think you did there? Right. And how am I right there? They know exactly what great looks like. They have the answer and they're making small like tweaks and corrections to get the seller to do that thing. Right. And they're doing it through demonstration. Right. It's not explaining. We really need you to, you know, find a way to get your prospect to open up more. It's like, no, I'm noticing that you are asking a lot of closed ended questions, right? How can we turn this question and open it up? An example might be this. Give it a try. Right? So we're following, right? I feel like I'm just, I'm so.

Fired up by that answer. Because one, like, I never know how these interviews are going to go and every once in a while I'm in an interview where they're saying things, I'm like, no, that's not really how that works. But like what you just, I mean, we should pause the entire episode right now. And if you just said that over and over again because what, what people read in the books and what's put out there, right. Is like, you know, you got to ask those questions. So why do you think this happened? No, and that's, no, that's not how great. Look at any great coach. They don't come up to the player and go, so why do you think you missed that shot?

No, they said turn your heel out.

Right, Exactly. Your heels out, your elbows flaring. Let's bring you in here, get you up like this. They give them a C and they stop them. Right? So just.

Jordan, that's what I do want to say though is like the coaching with a capital C is transformative and powerful and has changed my life and the lives of many in a myriad of ways. However, what I think we are talking about is skills coaching, right? Coaching for behavioral change around selling skills. And that requires the approach that we're talking about.

So let's define this. When you say coaching with a capital C, what does that mean?

So when I think about coaching with a capital C, I really think about kind of traditional, kind of inquiry and question based coaching where you as the coach acknowledge that you don't have the answer, that the person that you're coaching probably does. Right. And that you're asking really kind of thoughtful and powerful and pointed questions to help lead them to an answer that they will arrive at. Right. Practice coaching is where the destination is known, right. Where you do a quick explanation. I have a framework, actually that I teach managers here. You do a quick explanation of what it is, but the magic comes in your ability to demonstrate and show them what great looks like.

Right.

So the explanation comes, the demonstration comes, and then you throw them into practice, into reps, right. And the process is they practice. You give quick, pointed, focus, feedback, maybe with demonstration, and then throw them back into practice again. Right. So you're going through this cycle where you're both in a way getting, getting in your at bats, but you as the manager who does know what great looks and sounds like and is able to show them, is leading with demonstration and those quick kind of pointed adjustments. And that to my mind is the most effective way to practice. Coach for skill development and behavior change.

I love that because so much of this does come down to skill development and also the ability to recall. Right. And that was something I spent a lot of time on. It was almost three years ago now, really trying to study the art of learning. Like, how do we learn? Because you kind of said this at the beginning. If you think about how much we expect reps to remember, it's comical. Like, I do this exercise with my managers and the companies that I work with and like consult on. It's like, let's write all this out. What are all the things that a rep needs to be able to remember, recall and execute with. And it turns into like two pages, right. Of competitors, product knowledge, benefits, sales, processes, tech. Like all these different things. And it's like, but how much repetition are they getting? And that's kind of like the next part I want to go with is like repetition. Like, how often should people be practicing?

Every day, Multiple times a day? I mean, the best. It's interesting. Like the best sellers that I know are the best practices and the healthiest and thriving and highest performing teams that I have witnessed as a sales coach and been a part of as a seller. Like, practice is just embedded in what they do team meets, kick off with a quick speed drill or lightning round on. I don't know if it's objection handling or whatever the skill is or the new feature that you need to talk about or how to ask better open ended questions. Whatever the skill that the manager wants to focus on that you know that round is. But it's happening all the time. I mean, even so in the practice lab. And I know we'll be talking about that in a minute, which is the new, the new kind of practice based sales training community that I co founded with Jonathan Mahan. Like we'll even share with each other recordings of ourselves practicing into our phones, let's say a great agenda in advance of a call and then we'll share with each other how that call went.

Oh, so what I love there too. Like, man, y', all, oh, I hope y' all are listening to this. Okay. She's talking about sharing practice. Not even like the recorded call necessarily of the call. Like sharing how you're practicing with somebody I think is great. And you just mentioned this and I want to talk about. And maybe this is the segue kind of into some of the things you're doing with practice lab. But let's talk about the different ways you can practice. Right? Because they're not all the same. You mentioned speed route. You mentioned like a lightning round. Let's talk about some of the different ways you can practice a skill.

Okay. So there are a number of ways that you can practice. One of the things that I don't think that a lot of people realize is that many of the skills that we think of as sales skills are also just human skills. Right. So there's of course a place for role play which can be super effective. And I know you're, you're a big fan of KD and so am I. But there's also an opportunity in like discovery. And this is something that we do in the lab where practicing a certain level of listening, practicing curiosity. Right. Is something that you can do outside of the context of a role play. So we have an exercise called Motivate Me where we break into pairs and you are talking with your partner about either a change they want to make in their life and buying is change. We always have to remember that as sellers. Right. Or maybe a purchase that they want to make. And it is your job to a give your prospect or give your partner the experience of feeling deeply seen, heard and understood, which we often don't think of as an important skill in discovery, but it, but it's powerful for growing a relationship. Right. But also to gather as much information as you as you can about their present circumstances. Right. Where they want to be, so you can locate the gap, et cetera, et cetera. But what's so powerful about taking it outside of the roleplay context is that it takes the performance aspect out of it, but still allows you to practice that skill of, like, asking great questions, gathering powerful information, listening, making your prospect feel seen and heard and understood. And what sellers say after that exercise is often, oh, my God, that felt nothing like my discovery. I want to make sure that my discovery feels like that.

Wow, that's awesome. That is so good. And like, I wanted to ask you, I'm going to take a step back here real quick because there's something that you've been saying a lot throughout all this that I don't think people maybe fully understand is notice how often she's saying, practicing the skill, working on the skill. She has not one time said, practice the call, practice the demo. So let's talk about the difference here, because I do, like, because most people, when they do, they think, okay, all right, cool. Yeah, Jordan, I'll go practice. And they practice the call, and they do the full thing and then go from there. Let's talk about the different. Like, when you're saying, practice the skill, practice the skill, practice the skill. What does that mean?

So. So we often forget that selling is comprised of, like, a gazillion skill. Right? It's made up of all of these skills that individually can be developed in practice. And when each one is executed really well, that's when you get, like, really effective and powerful selling. Right. It can often feel very unwieldy to, you know, if someone is practicing their entire demo or practicing their entire pitch call, what pieces, like, what the focus should be, what pieces of feedback to share so that the seller can become all the more effective in their overall selling. That's just, It's. There's. There's. There's too many areas to focus on. So what I found to be the most effective, and this is true of how athletes practice as well, it's like, just practice your swing. Right? So in our case, you know, if you're kicking off a meeting, we have an agenda framework in the practice lab that is designed to set the stage for conversations that feel open, transparent, and collaborative. That is a skill. Right. And actually, if you. If you break down the agenda framework, that's comprised of a number of different skills as well. But it's like, we're just Practicing our agenda, right? For two weeks, we are practicing how to set the tone for better sales conversations, right? From there, we build, right? We actually move on to. We have this incredible guest facilitator called Chris Williams, and he does something called Listening Festival. Our next module is solely on listening and the four levels of listening. And we spend two weeks developing awarenesses of the different levels of listening that we can do as sellers and that we can give our prospects to make them open up. That is a majorly important sales skill that no one really talks about practicing. Then we move into Motivate Me Discovery, and we build a shared vocabulary around each moment in the sales conversation, right? And each set of skills that are required to really carry it off effectively. And in a way that feels good. It's like a built, you know, we're building a tower, right? And then in the end, once we've chunked it down as an opportunity for us to try to put it all together, do a kind of cumulative review and then pick out the pieces of the skills that we've learned where, you know, we can continue to improve. But at least there's that shared vocabulary in terms of, like, what the roadmap of these skills should be and sound like.

I love that because I think, you know, one of the phrases I used with my managers often, right, Came from the. The old Mel. Mel Gibson movie, the Patriot, right? And at one point in the movie, he's talking with his sons while they're. While they're hunting. He says, aim small, miss small, right? Where it's like if you aim at the entire deer, you're going to miss by a lot. Whereas if you're aiming at, like, just a speck on the right shoulder, you're going to miss by a little.

And.

And that's kind of what you're describing when you practice the whole call or the whole demo, it's too much versus we're aiming small. We're going to work on this skill agenda, not even disco agenda. And then we'll move. And that allows you also, y', all to get way more repetitions. Because when you practice the whole call, you may be maybe get two in 30 minutes. More often, it's one. It's one call with feedback, and then it's over. Versus the repetition of just chunking. It was a word that you use, which is what we did internally, too, is you chunk it like that repetition. Now they get hundreds of repetitions instead of one. Now the skills, you kind of dabbled on it, and it's on your LinkedIn as well. You talk about the core skills of selling, what do you believe? Some of those core skills? So people are listening, they go, okay, yeah, I'm buying into this. What would, like, where would you start in terms of the core skills that you believe turn someone into a world class seller?

So it's interesting that kind of goes back to like big picture. What is my and our position on what makes for great selling? And I've always been someone who has said, you know, no matter what kind of seller you are, if you're challenger, relationship based or whatever, like what you are in with your prospect is a relationship with another human being. And it's really important to attend to like the fundamental needs that any human being has in relationship, in or out of selling. And to my mind, a big part of that is making our prospects feel seen, heard and understood, right. So part of what we're weaving into every moment in the selling conversation is, is sending those signals, right? So when we think about the building blocks of like a traditional disco call, let's say, right? Maybe you do small talk, maybe you don't, whatever, you know, I know that there are a lot of schools of thought there, but in thinking about the agenda, right. What are some of the specific ways that you can start to signal to your prospect that this is going to be about them and their needs and a collaborative conversation to help get them to where they want to go, Right. What does that mean? You can say, come up with a collaborative agenda practice, go. No, we have some guidelines for specifically what that could look like. One, your purpose, your purpose statement. Really the purpose of the meeting today is all, all too often sellers make it about them and their purpose. Yes. The most important question sellers can ask before formulating agenda, an agenda which we encourage people to think about and prep ahead of time is why is the seller showing up at this meeting, right. What's in it for them? And making sure to weave their likely purpose into our purpose statement. That's the first signal that we're paying attention to you, right? This meeting is we're here to serve you two. One of the most common phrases that I hear in an agenda KD is like, I want to do this, then I want to do this, then I doesn't matter what you want, like what would be most helpful, right? From there, you know, we can together we can determine, right? Really these conversations are best served by, right? How are these agenda items laddering up to what will make for the most successful conversation? So we work with sellers to try to eliminate, I Want to, I want to. I want to. I want, want to. Right. Because it doesn't matter really what the seller wants to do when they're setting up a meeting. And even further, I'll often hear sellers resist the idea of doing an agenda because they're afraid it's, like, too formal, too rigid, or too driving. And the solution for that, we've noticed, is that sellers will often say, we will do this, then we'll do this. Then let's, like, soften up the language a little bit. Right. It might be helpful to. From there, we can. Right. And all of those different elements help to signal that this is a dialogue, a collaboration. It's not this thing that's set in stone. It's flexible, and that we're going to be prioritizing your needs and your outcomes.

And this is so valuable to do. And again, back to the idea of skills and chunking it down to work on these things. Now, how often do you come back? Right. So, like, because also this. I mean, I made this mistake so many times in my sales career. Like, you train on it and you practice it. Right? Like, okay, good. And then we move on and then never come back to it. Like, how do y' all weave in some of that, you know, that forgetting curve that, you know, you let it get away and come back. Like, how do you all come back to some of these topics?

Yeah, that's a great question. So we're in the very first. Well, we did a beta of the program this summer, but we're in the very first official. And right now, the way that we're focusing on reinforcement is having the lab itself, where they learn the skills in advance via lab prep video. Right. So we're not. We're kind of the antidote of a, like, training is explaining where training is doing. So the explaining happens in advance of lab.

Right.

They jump into lab with a shared vocabulary and familiarity with the skill so that they can dive into practice. And what's interesting about these practice sessions, because you asked, you know, what does good practice look like? Or what are the various ways that people can practice? Like, neuroscience has shown and you know the talent code. Right. That the most powerful practice happens just at the edge of our current abilities. Right, right. Where it's awkward, where we're stumbling when it doesn't feel smooth. So, you know, part of what we work to do with each practice round is ratchet up the difficulty of the skill and the focus to keep people there. Right. And that requires vulnerability. Right. And, you know, we have ways of Helping to build the community to send signals that this is a place where we can screw up, right? Where when we're screwing up, we know we're on the right track. And then the following week, in terms of reinforcement is open lab. And that's an opportunity to revisit the skill, explore some different aspects of it that might kind of. Can you kind of take it up a notch and give people that opportunity to get in another hour of practice? Now we're in the place now, Katie, of figuring out how often do we want to rerun the skill over the course of a year. And that's something we're really thinking a lot about.

I like that because the foundation with my teams and the companies that I'm working with is I tell them, like, you have a core set of four skills generally for your org or for your team that you think are foundational. You should never stop practicing those, ever. It's not about, like, you know, in sports or music or even art, right? It's like, oh, I know how to do a scale now, so I'm just never going to do it again. Like, no, they literally never stop doing scales and never stop doing breath work, right? And it's like, if you think about some of those core skills, they should be on repeat. Practice them always, right? Objection. Handling question asking, right? We called it like the connecting of the dots. Can you take what you heard and apply it? Can you take what you heard and apply it and then, like, the values and benefits of, like, what we do. But that should be on repeat, right? It's not like, oh, I did it in onboarding, because that's also too. By the way, I want to touch on this next is like, people practice in onboarding, and then it's like, never again. You know, like, okay, so true. I made it through onboarding, so now I'm good, right? So I think actually the way I want to phrase this question then is, you know, where. Where should a company start? Because this is one of those topics where people hear it and they go, well, yeah, duh. Oh, yeah, this is great. But then they still don't do it because it's like they look at, like, a blank sheet of paper and go, okay, well, now what they talked about the skills, they talked about repetition, the practice and the ratcheting up of difficulty. And it should be daily. How do I do this daily? I don't have time. I've got 14 reps. Like, how. How can someone start to integrate practice into their Oregon team?

Really important question, I would say to start, if teams are able, it really begins with hiring. Yes, that's really important because, you know, one of the challenges of being a sales trainer who works with teams to help them to create some of these cultures of practice is you can meet a lot of internal resistance because you don't have the people on the bus who are willing to be uncomfortable. Right. And learning requires discomfort. Right. And vulnerability and awkwardness and realizing it's like that it's conscious incompetence. Right. And that's a space no one likes to be. But there's actually a way to hire for that. And I know we kind of talked, talked about that when we first kind of came together. And that's a place that I really encourage sales teams to focus if they can. And I work with a lot of high growth companies who are scaling their teams, you know, sometimes by 100% a quarter, which I always feel a little worried about, honestly, when, when that's, I mean, it really that sometimes I encourage them to pump the brakes. But in terms of hiring, like, there's an opportunity to embed practice into your hiring process in a way that a lot of people don't think about. Like, and I know we talked a little bit about this, but if you do role play in hiring, you can listen out for something so much more powerful than can they sell the product that we sell? It's not about that. It's. Are they game to do something risky? Are they game to give it their all and probably screw up? Are they game to take feedback from you, try to implement, iterate and make it better? And if you have someone like that who's able to get through that process in the interview stage, you're setting the stage to have a team that's more open to practice.

I think that's huge. It's just, and we talked about that, you know, it's like people put, you know, role plays into their, their hiring process to see if someone can sell their product. It's like, that's not. No, they shouldn't be able to sell your product yet. But do they take feedback? How quickly can they apply that feedback? Do they listen? Do they absorb it or do they push it away? Do they get defensive or do they get excited? Do they thank you for that feedback? Right. The ones that like, there's a couple like hard stops in my hiring process that are like immediate hires. One of them was if they asked for feedback.

Oh yeah.

So like we do the role play and then it's like, all right, thank you. And I was A pause, right? I would just pause. Like, thank you. I appreciate that. The ones that asked for feedback, the ones that said, well, how do you think I did? Or could I get some feedback? Was almost immediate, hard stop. I'm a hire this person, and, like, without fail, I literally have not had one person that did that that didn't end up being phenomenal at their job, because it was a signal of, like, they want that feedback. Like, they're looking for it and they want to improve, which I think is huge. Right. And so the hiring is big. I do want to take the next step, though. Like, okay, but I have a team now, right? I have a team now. Maybe I didn't do all that, Jordana. Like, yeah, I'm going to start doing that.

I got a team now. Yeah.

How do I start to kind of create that culture of practice? Right? Like, what are some baby steps? Because it's also too. And I've made this mistake personally. Like, just full overhaul, right? Like, all right, y', all role plays on Tuesday, micro training on Wednesday, call review on Friday, and you do too much, and it just freaks people out. What could be some baby steps for people listening to say, okay, here's how I can start to integrate practice in and build up to what you're talking about?

That's a really important question. And I think one of the things that I've noticed is that the companies that are able to most successfully adopt practice cultures or shift their culture towards increased practice, if not an entire overhaul, is making sure that the leaders are practicing with the team. That's probably the most important thing. When I first joined I the sales gym, which was my. My first sales training job, we were like a practice company. And not only was I trained up as a coach via practice role plays, I was like, you know, mock coaching for two weeks before they ever got, you know, let me get in front of a client. But we were, like, doing daily lightning rounds as a team, practicing the skills that we were teaching our clients. And some of these were, like, you know, big clients in the Fortune 500. But we were also teaching, practicing, like, our own coaching skills. Right. And I remember KD showing up to the first lightning round practice so afraid. Like, the founders of the company were there. I had just, you know, onboarded. I felt like, oh, my God, this is like, this is where I have to show up perfectly. And what was so powerful is that the founders were there and, like, the big founder practiced, too, and, like, screwed up and then asked for feedback.

Yes.

And that was the most powerful signal that he could send that this was a place where it's safe to learn. And I share that because, you know, oftentimes when I work with teams, I'll have like the sales managers want to sit out of the training or sit out of the practice or watch. And that is not the move if they're wanting their sellers to feel comfortable trying the stuff on for size. So that's step one. Get in the trenches with your team. Practice, screw up, ask for feedback.

I want to jump in there real quick because I want you to highlight it, right? Of practicing with versus like, it's like proving you can do it or trying to like prove that you're better. Can you talk about that? There's a difference between practicing with or showing your team, like, oh, like, look how good I am. Can you touch on that?

Yes. It is one thing when you as the manager are the practice coach, right? In that context with the understanding of a great sounds like. And you are there to give an example of greatness for the person to help the person that you're coaching get there faster. Right. When you are all in the practice space together as a sales leader and manager, you are trying some things on for size too, right? Ideally, you are are experimenting and you hopefully, as an enlightened manager or leader, understand the value of the act of getting vulnerable with your team and how infinitely more powerful that is in terms of like building a culture of practice and building team culture than you showing up and just nailing it. The respect I've found that sellers feel for their managers who are able to screw up and ask for feedback from them, like, transcends anything. They're like, wow, my manager really nailed that cold call. It's like, wow, I heard my manager struggling and then he asked for feedback and I was actually able to suggest something that that made it better and he was grateful and humble. This is someone I want to work for.

I love that. And it's important because I think especially in sales there is this like, all these things are still so ingrained of like, managers. VPs feel like they have to like show that they've got it. They have to show that they're better than their team or whatever else versus being vulnerable, taking that feedback. That's how you lead by example is by asking for feedback, by failing, by messing up and applying it and doing. That's how you lead by example, not just showing people that you can do it. Right. Phil Jackson wasn't out there showing Michael Jordan how to shoot a fade away. That wasn't what he was there to do.

And that's the thing. Like, you don't. Like, it's, oh, you can be an incredible, incredible sales leader and, like, kind of awkward on the phone with your prospects, and that's okay. Like, those are two different skills. And sometimes it's funny, you know, being in the practice lab, like, you know, I share my recordings too, because we have to remember I'm a sales coach, but I also have prospects and I have a sales cycle and I'm selling into teams. And the practice lab keeps me accountable, you know, for the sales skills that I'm teaching. Because, you know, I was at one time a great seller. Now I think I'm a pretty good coach. But my selling muscle gets weak. It does. And I can know how to sell and I can teach others how to do it effectively and give examples. But when I'm on my own sales call, I see opportunities for improvement all the time. And to have a community like I had when I started selling, when I was sitting right next to people and they were hearing me on the phone and we could offer feedback on the fly, but to have a feedback where I can share audio of my experimentation before a call and then how it went, good, bad or otherwise, and get feedback is. Feels powerful.

So the last question I have here as we start to wrap this is one, like, I could go for like an hour. I'm already, like, dang it. Like, we're already. No, there's still so much I want to talk about. So we'll have to do a part two. And I mean that. Okay, like, and this is truly. I mean, all these questions are from curiosity, but, like, as you work with companies kind of outside in, right, like, how, like, how do you ingrain yourself into their process a little bit, right? Because, like, you're an outsider. It's already hard enough, right? Like, if the managers aren't doing it, but, you know, you're kind of outside coming in. Like, how do you ingrain yourself into, like, their world or get buy in? Because if you can get buy in into practice as someone coming from the outside, it should be an example for how managers can get buy into practice internally. So, like, how do you try to get some of that buy in coming from the outside? Because that's hard.

I wish I had a concrete answer. I'll tell you, it is really hard. It is really hard. Like, especially, you know, on the, you know, first year, like, remote, right? So you've never even looked the folks that you're working with in the eye and then as you're trying to introduce new, like, motions and new rituals in a way, like practice rituals onto a team, there is resistance, right? There is resistance. Resistance. I mean, kd, I wish I could say, like, this is the formula for getting buy in, but what I will say is that I really only work with leaders and managers, or I try to make a point of only working with leaders and managers who are really excited to try this on for size. Right. And who are prepared to champion this in their organizations. Now, I can't say that every manager on the teams that I work with is fully on board, but I found that if I'm able to get 1, 2, 3 managers who are excited, get them. This is really important. We haven't even talked about this. Get them to nominate or enlist three really excited sellers, because this is something else. Like the coaching shouldn't just happen from the top, right? And the practice. Like, if we're developing and wanting to develop cultures of coaching and practice on a team, like, we should be empowering sellers to become player coaches, right? To. To support the development of their peers, to embed them into onboarding and training. And I'd say for any team, that's like, great. All this sounds great. Jordana, how do I actually do this? I'd say one, if you're a manager who's excited about the approach and really wants to make something happen, that's a start. And then two, surround yourself with some team members, be they senior or junior, who are really excited to kind of train and have an impact on how their team kind of skills up and sells in this way. And those are the raw ingredients to begin to affect some kind of broader change on the team.

I love that. I call those my domino reps. Yeah, you gotta have those where the reps that if they fall, everyone else falls with them. Right. And it depends on the direction. Now, sometimes those are like your. Your shining stars. Sometimes that domino rep is a leader. Sometimes that domino rep is not the shining star. It's not the person at the top. And it's even more important that you get them involved early, get them bought into the idea, get them to teach something. I'm glad you called that out at the end. That practice doesn't just have to be with the manager. It can be with each other. It can be solo, breaking down their own things and practicing. Record that practice and send it in. There's so many ways to do this that also because I know managers sometimes listen to this and go, I don't have time for that. We don't have time if you're the only one that they're practicing with. But if you either one use a resource like, you. All right, like, go get it. It's a like, y' all, like, listening to this. The ROI on practice is beyond comprehension, right? If you have. If every single rep on your team gets even 10% better, the ROI on that is immense. Pay for this. Work with someone to do this. If you can't. Just because you can't doesn't mean you should throw the white flag. And I don't have time. But then using your team. I just had this conversation with my managers at my previous company is like, we do a lot of coaching. And what got brought up was like, well, I have so many people. So many people. And what I asked them to do is like, I want you to say that phrase, but instead of it sounding like a bad thing, I want you to rephrase it like it's a good thing. And I want to see if you get what I'm saying by this. I can't coach that much. I have too many people versus I have so many people that can help me with coaching. And it's like you have 12 people. You know how many resources you have to help each other get better, how many now call scores you have, how many practice leads you have. Like, if you used to them to help make each other better, you actually have more resources at hand versus when it's only on you. You're right. It's too much. And so I'm glad you called that out at the end of, like, getting everybody involved here. So now we do got a wrap here because, like, so I got one. One final question for you here, right? And, you know, it's kind of ingrained in a lot of what we've been talking about, you know, but the name of the podcast is Live Better Sell Better have this weird idea that if we took better care of ourselves, if we had more joy and energy and fulfillment in life, that the sales would also improve because of it. What would your live better advice be for people listening?

That's such a good question. I think it's funny, I've been thinking a lot about my own evolution as a seller, and a big turning point for me has been to turning point. A big process for me has been getting to know and accept myself and then allowing who I am to, like, welcoming who I am into my work. And, you know, a lot of sellers feel like the seller version of them needs to be somebody else.

Yes.

It doesn't the awkward, sometimes stumbling, creative, quirky human being that you are, if you can accept that human in your life, which I know takes a lot of work and then bring that into your work. Oh, my God, it feels so good.

I love that. Somewhere in my office, I don't know. Oh, it fell. Here it is. Right. I don't know if you watch the video, but I have this hat, right? So it's a sales hat and. But I use it not the way people think. It's not about putting your sales hat on. It's about taking your sales hat off. This Persona of being this salesperson, right? You do things, you say things that you would never say with your sales hat off. And so I love that call out of accepting yourself, being human. Because y', all, you gotta remember, who are we selling to? People who also have their own flaws and insecurities and things that they are nervous about. And if we can lean into that, it's just a better way to live and a better way to sell. So. This was amazing. This is exactly what I was hoping it was going to be. Where can people go get more of you? Where can they learn about the practice lab? Like, where can they get more of what you're putting out in their lives? Because.

Okay, okay. So LinkedIn. LinkedIn is the place where most things happen for me. Jordana zeldin. My website, springtrainingwithtwoeyes.com is under construction. But the place to learn more about the practice lab, to join the wait list, to be the first to know when applications open up for future cohorts, is thepracticelab Co. Let's go.

Practice lab co. Appreciate you. Thank you so much for this. For your energy, your insights, everything that came with it. We'll be talking more for sure. We are. We are not done here. Thank you so much.

Thanks, kp. It.