Precision in Pitch: Mastering Specificity for Standout Sales Messaging with Dan Drucker

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What up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the live Better Sell Better podcast. This is your host Kevin Dorsey, AKA kd. And in a world of generalities, in a world of fluff advice, in a world of cliches and one liners, what I believe everybody is craving right now is not more content, but more context. Right? Because the difference is context gets specific, it gets to the core of things. It actually is applicable, tactical and can be used to drive results. Yet so often in sales, the messaging is fluffy, the demos are high level. Everything that we do tends to be very off specificity versus getting very specific to your problems, to your market, to the problems you solve. Which is why I'm so excited to have Dan Drucker on the show with me. He is an OG in the game. He has been leading sales teams, he's been leading marketing teams, which is rare that they let us cross that aisle very often. So I'm really excited to pick his head at Canon. He's the VP of National Sales and marketing there and he's going to be diving in with us today about specificity. How we can use specificity to drive sales, to drive leads, to drive revenue in a way that helps our buyers buy. So, Dan, my man, welcome to the show. Really excited for you.

So happy to be here. Thank you for having me, Kevin. This is great.

So I love this, right? Cause I ask you what topic and I get a one word response, which is specificity. And I love that. Cause I also believe in brevity with some of this. So why is that so top of mind for you right now? It's kind of set the stage around, like, why is specificity something that is like top of mind and that you're focused on? And we're going to start to unpack it forever.

It's unbelievable. I just feel like people right now, the buyers on the buyer side, they're just overwhelmed. They're just getting flooded with mass automation. I think a lot of it ramped up during the pandemic because everybody was sitting home, everybody was behind their laptops, right behind their screens, and messages just kept flying out. And people weren't putting a lot of thought behind what they were saying. They were just trying to reach as many people as possible. And you see almost a rebellion on the buyer side, right? They're kind of pushing back. They're putting in all these processes to kind of block things, and they're really not responding to that mass messaging. And what I found the last couple of years working with my sales team, working with my marketing team, is the more specific we got, the more personal we got in terms of the problems we could solve, the very, very real and specific challenges that a particular ICP was up against, that's where people wanted to have conversations with us. When you were talking almost one on one to someone and saying, I understand what you in your organization, in your industry are up against as a major problem and an impactful problem. And we can help you. Let's have a conversation. You ask some questions or out there, then they feel. They feel heard. And I think that's the difference these days. You got to make people feel heard or they're not going to respond to your messaging, no matter what the medium is.

So let's keep going down this path. Because I think a lot of people, they think like, all right, personalization is enough. Where it's like, well, I personalized the message, right? I said, hey, Dan, I saw you went to Penn State. Go Nittany Lyons. Could I get 30 minutes on your calendar to talk about our new disruptive technology that is Changing the game and landscape. Can you go a little bit deeper on the difference between personalization and call it the specificity to the challenge, the specificity to like what you work with. So I want to make sure people get the difference here.

I am so glad you brought up that exact example. And I was laughing because I've actually written about that. Personalization to me is not using some software to scrape my LinkedIn profile and happen to pick out that I'm a Nittany lion, which I am. So thank you. And it's certainly not approaching me about it. The Monday after we just lost to Ohio State for the, you know, eighth straight time or whatever it is. So, you know, things like that, using my name in the subject line of an email, that's not personalization. That's just, that's superficial. I mean, let's be honest, that's superficial. Specificity is really understanding. Again, if you were selling to me, really understanding, okay, I'm a sales and marketing leader. What am I up against? What's going on today, 2023, what's the biggest problem? Fighting the status quo. Companies don't want to make decisions, right? People can't push deals across the finish line. I'm concerned with my sales rep, their motivation, you know, how do they stay involved in this really difficult economy? How do I motivate them? What tools can I use to make them more productive? That's what you should be talking to me about. And if you can prove to me as a buyer that that's what, you know, you understand my problems and you, it's an impactful problem, you've got a solution to that. If you, if you really hit on that in your messaging, that's being super specific. If you're talking about my alma mater, you know, where I live, even what company I work for, that's, that's just the price of admission of, you know, doing five minutes of account research. And quite frankly, places like LinkedIn have set it up now that you don't even need five minutes. It's two clicks.

Oh man, this is, this is so important. We're going to keep, we're going to go another layer below this now. It's like, how do you enable your team to learn these things? Because so often sales leaders and their sales teams, they're not even like the users of their product. They are not the Persona. Right? We've got, you know, 29 year old AES out there trying to have conversations with CFOs that have been in the game longer than maybe that person's even been alive at this point in time. How, how do you enable them to learn these things, to learn the challenges of the industry, the Persona, the account, like, where do you focus with team so they can write this type of specific messaging or have these types of conversations?

Yeah, that's a great question, Kevin. Because my sales organization, they don't have that experience. They haven't lived there. We're selling things like digital transformation. We also do on the other side, kind of automated warehouse solutions and things like that. And most of our people have not lived that. On the sales side, we do have subject matter experts that have lived that. So that is part of it. Getting their input and their knowledge and transferring that, at least on a high level, to the sales organization. So I think you do have to do that. But I think a lot of it comes from training them to talk to our current clients. And again, there's loops that we set up, feedback loops. So I'm lucky enough to have marketing and sales under me, under one umbrella. And that makes a huge difference for a lot of reasons. A, they're not battling usually, you know, you've kind of got a common vision. It helps. But I also think it's a group that works together to feed off each other and test messaging and go back to our clients and test messaging and ask them flat out, why did you choose us? What do we bring to the table? What problems did we solve of yours? What are we not giving you? What do other vendors provide to you that you'd like to see? Things like that. Where do we fall short? Where are we strong? Getting that feedback from current clients is important. I mentioned subject matter experts. So these are people who have lived in the world that we're trying to sell to. So again, we're getting feedback from them. When we produce a lot of our marketing material, be it white papers, videos, whatever it might be, any kind of content. A lot of times we're using those subject matter experts to talk about what are the hot buttons today in a particular industry for a particular type of company, for a particular type of buyer with what we're talking about. And then we feed that to our, our sales organization. We feed it to them in two ways. One is just marketing generated content to get them leads. And we've had a lot of success with that the last few years. And then obviously for their own education, just getting them kind of the little snackables, the little sound bites that are going to make them intelligent enough to ask the right questions to uncover if this problem that we know is a problem for our clients. Is it a problem for you? The answer is it may not be. And if the answer is yes, is it an important problem for you to solve? You know, I think that's where reps sometimes make a mistake. Hey, they have a problem, great. I'm going to go full bore now. Tell them everything about our solution. And you turned out, turn out at the end, it's priority number 168 and it's really not going to get the attention. So I think there's problem and impact and then you go from there.

I love it. And I want to call out something small. You just said there that I want to make people grab is the specificity of the questions you ask. Because I love that because too often, you know, reps are asking questions that are not specific enough that actually make the buyer go, you don't know what you're talking about. Just I know by the question you asked me that you don't understand my world. And I just wanted to call that out because it doesn't necessarily mean you have to know everything better than your prospect. But knowing the specific questions that make the prospect go, okay, okay, like they absolutely, they get this. I just, I was, it was subtle, but I wanted to make sure we called that out because I think that's, that's key. Like you want to expand on that at all.

Yeah, I think big deals, and I've said it before, I think big deals can be won or lost in the questions you ask at the beginning of the process. I really do. It establishes, like you said, expertise, confidence in the seller, confidence in their organization, that they know what they talk about. And then you can go down the line and see, okay, can they put together a solution that's going to meet my needs, budget, all that other stuff. But I think right there at the beginning, the questions you're asking let them know if you're just trying to sell them something or if you really understand what they're up against.

I love it. I love it. So now let's keep going down this, right, because you mentioned early on, right, like buyers, I mean, it's just their inboxes are flooded, their social is flooded. Like I probably get, God, I even know 11 to 12, like, you know, unsolicited calls, spam calls, like per day and all this. So how do you stand out when that is the reality? Right. I am getting 90%, probably even worse. I think 95% of the emails, the socials that I get are not personalized, are not Specific are not any of that. How do you stand out even if you're being specific? How do you stand out when you're surrounded by all the noise?

Yeah, it's interesting. It's tough because all those folks doing kind of mass, unpersonalized, unspecific automation, they're hurting the whole industry, they're hurting the whole sales profession because you can be the best rep and you can have this super specific. You can have everything dialed in, right? And there's some great ones out there. But still getting through to that person is really, really difficult. So a. I'm a big believer. Use every tool available. You know, I love going on LinkedIn and people are like, yeah, email is the only way to go. Cold calling is the only way to do it. This. Well, there is no only way to do it because you have no idea who's sitting on the other side of that. Like me personally, I do not pick up the phone if I don't recognize the number. It's just, you know, it's just my thing, right. I'm inundated with emails. So unless something really catches my attention in the subject line, I'm probably, it's probably just going to my junk file. But you hit me up with a good, you know, a good direct message on, on LinkedIn. That's why I go on to LinkedIn to kind of meet people, connect and things like that. You may catch me now. I've got a guy who works for me, a regional vice president of sales, old school. He'll pick up the. He's just a phone call guy, right? So if you call him, you're going to reach him. So I tell people all the time, use everything because you don't know what's on the other side. The other piece of that is you got to find some other methods to get through to people. Happy to say post pandemic. We're back to some live events. So conferences, networking events, there's nothing better. That's how you really, you know, can. Can further relationships and get to know people. We've put a lot of effort, we've doubled down on our marketing efforts because we are actually seeing a big improvement the last couple of years in both quantity and quality of marketing. Generated leads. We've doubled down on partnerships, you know, big organizations that can walk us into opportunities because we fill a hole in their service offerings. You know, something that they don't provide and they can provide now more value by bringing us in. As, you know, nothing better than a warm lead, a warm introduction. Right? Versus coming in cold. So the more we can do that, the better. And then we're just playing around with different things. You know, we've played around the last couple years with a lot more use of video, you know, and different types of video. So you got your talking heads, people like me on video, talking about all how great canon is, you know. But then we've used animated videos to kind of walk, walk people through solutions, use our subject matter experts on videos. We've tried to get some clients on videos and things like that, so. And then different channels as well. So I think it's really just using whatever tools you got out there, try to make it fun, try to get in person a little bit more so you can establish a relationship. Use social selling to kind of build slowly. But it's not easy because it's just there. There's a lot of noise out there.

I love that because it's like. I think Jeb, Jeb Lount said this really well in his book Fanatical Prospecting. He said you need to have an and mentality, not an or mentality. It's like you call and do email and do social and do events. You just, you have to have an and mentality to stand out because otherwise you just get buried in all of this and you can't, you can't do anything, even if it is that great message. But you only send it once.

It's true. Somebody told me recently they were talking about their cadence and they said, no, no, I don't do like, you know, call week one, email week two, call week three. They bunch it together. It's like, I call you. No, I'll email you, and two minutes later I'm going to call you, or vice versa, and then I'm going to send you a dm, you know, an hour later. Because I want you to remember me. And you may at that point say, not interested, but I want you to remember me. If I space it out, you're getting 3,000 messages in between those two and you're not going to remember that I emailed you last week.

It's too big of a gap. I don't think a lot of people understand the whole, we don't have time to rip apart cadences right now. But like with cadences, the reason why they were built was to help build awareness right where they saw your name here and they saw your name over here and then you had that call. They were never meant to be automated. Like, that was not what they were built for. Just to be blasting out Templates, but that's what people asked for. And so companies built that. And that is. You know, I was on with Victor Antonio a while back and I told him, like, sales is killing sales.

Yes.

Like we're killing it by what we're doing.

Right.

You mentioned, like those reps are making it harder on the good reps because they're just blasting out templates all day long. And I've said this to my teams so many times. Like, y', all, if all it took to book meetings was templated emails, I wouldn't need salespeople.

Right.

I, I wouldn't need. I could literally just load up like the, the cannons and just blast out all the emails and get like, I need you as humans to bring the human element into this. And I think we're missing that unfortunately right now.

Yeah. People always ask, you know, is AI going to replace salespeople? And my answer is not the ones that actually are doing the work to connect. But if you're just using automation, then yeah. And of course it can already is.

That's all it takes. So let's make a little bit of a pivot here because you lead sales and marketing, which is, which is rare. I've told people many times if I weren't in sales, I'd be in, in marketing. I love marketing. I worked with a phenomenal marketing leader early in my career, Andy Mackensen, like, who taught me so much about marketing, direct response, just all, all of it. And so I love this because you don't see it happen. It's almost always sales and marketing is in like conflict. And then now, especially nowadays in tech, you have CROs, right. Who are overseeing sometimes sales and marketing. But most CROs are former sales leaders. They're not really marketing leaders and now they're overseeing it. So like, talk to me like, this is a two part question. What are things that marketing could and should learn from sales that would make them better marketers? And what are things sellers could and shouldn't learn from marketing that would make them better sellers?

Ooh, deep question. Yeah, I love having both under me. It's, it's just, it's been so much fun and conversations I've been having recently with my marketing leaders was I was like, I don't think you guys understand. You know, having been in sales my whole career, the diversion of working in the, on the marketing stuff is so much fun for me. It's so much more creative. It's, it's just, it's been a blast. But so what marketing could learn from sales, I think, is really understanding what they're up against in the field. You know, it's great. A lot of marketing, you know, marketing's kind of a corporate entity, right. So they're kind of sitting back there in their offices trying to figure out messaging and what works. What I've seen be real helpful is my marketing leaders, the ones responsible for putting together the messaging, have been sitting in on calls the last couple of years, and that's been big, whether that's prospect calls, client calls and internal calls, the strategy calls. So they really start to understand what does it take to push a deal across the finish line, you know, and then when you start with that end in mind, you can work backwards to what message do you need to get out there, what questions you have to have prospects asking? So that's great. What salespeople can learn from marketing is really about how to message things. You know, the right questions to ask, the right way to phrase things, how to present your solution, your company, yourself in a way that is short, sweet, and understood by your customers, by your marketplace, and not to say things that are going to open up a can of worms or mislead people in any way. So I think sales can learn messaging from marketing. Marketing can understand true sales cycle process from sales.

Yeah, I think that's key. You mentioned something that almost every marketing team that I go in and chat with, I bring up, which is, when's the last time you all listened to a sales call? Like while you're making all this content and you're making. When's the last time you sat down and listened to what our best are doing or even another layer down, when's the last time you talked to a customer?

Right.

Like, that's always been the gap I see between marketing and sales is, you know, sales is talking to prospects all. All day long. A lot of that conversation doesn't make it over to marketing to help feed.

Right.

Like the content that they are are making. Right. So how do you encourage your teams to work together? Right. Because again, you get to oversee it. So you can kind of can almost force that relationship a little bit. Like, how do you get them to collaborate more?

Yeah, I mean, you know, at first it was kind of let's set this up, but it kind of. It happens naturally now. So there's constant communication, constant what I'll call feedback loops. Right. So marketing, our marketing department is meeting with the various sales team on a regular basis and they're talking about the messaging, they're talking about what's working what's not working? They're getting feedback from the salespeople. Okay, you've been out on calls, presentations, first calls, follow up meetings. What are you hearing from the prospects? What are you hearing from the clients? You know, how can we help better? They're doing kind of one off campaigns for different sales teams, just kind of, you know, big hits in certain markets to try to push some things. So there are regular scheduled meetings and feedback sessions between sales and marketing and those have been going great, you know, so it's really a nice kind of circular approach.

I love that. One of the first things I established here at Benchmark was that cross because it's like if and also too I tell my sales teams, you can never complain about the leads if you're not treating them the right way.

Right.

Like if you can't show me that you made the right number of dials with the right type of messagings at the right time, the speed to lead, you don't get to go to marketing and say those leads were bad because you didn't even work them the right way. So I think that is so, so important. So then let's move past I guess called the prospecting side of specificity now into the actual sales process. Because it doesn't just stop. We're not here just to talk prospecting.

Right.

So how does this now carry over? Like how can sellers be more specific in the sales process to help now bring the deals across the line?

I think it's, it's a lot of couple ways. I mean first of all it's focus. So you, I've seen this happen to salesperson. So you go in, you've got a specific problem to solve, your focus. And then somewhere along the line, one of the meetings, whether it's a discovery meeting, the presentation, follow up, you know, a prospect mentioned something else, another possible service and all of a sudden it's like shiny object. Let me go and start talking about that as well. And you almost derail your own sales process by talking about other things. You know, there'll be a time to upsell down the road when they're already a client, you know, get that initial deal closed, get us in there performing what we're supposed to be performing. So I think staying focused on what you initially spoke to them about. But I think the biggest thing today is as you know Kevin, there's buying committees, there is no one to one selling anymore. Right. You've got, I think I read something recently, there's average of seven buyers. I've seen more Than that. I've seen ridiculous amounts. I don't know how these businesses do their own core business, whatever they're supposed to be doing, because they're all on committees buying things. But so now how do you get super specific? You've got to learn and understand what each of those people in that buying committee, what are their hot buttons, what are their priorities? Who's the ones who could kill the deal and how do you combat that and who are the ones that could support the deal and how do you get them all on the same page? So there's a lot out there to figure out with the dynamic and the ecosystem of a buying committee. And that's where you got to get super specific for each one. So you got to be specific about what's in it for the cfo, what's in it for the sourcing department, what's in it for the business leader, what's in it for, you know, whoever else you're selling to that's part of that committee. Otherwise somebody's going to kill the deal down the road, you know, at least is going to put it on, you know, indefinite hold.

Yeah, I think that is a really important call out right there at the end of like you have to get specific for the CFO who you may never get to talk to. It doesn't mean you still can't create assets and things for your champion to use with the cfo. Like that's one. I don't have to do it too much anymore. Now my, my team is pretty much all SMB at this point, but my previous teams that was like, who do we know is almost always on the buying committee? Let's build the assets for that. Like, I know you're going to have to go talk to legal, so here is the checklist that they're going to care about. The most frequently asked questions in three to four interviews with some of the other people from legal teams that signed up and what they went through here, like giving those types of assets to be more specific for the people on the committee. And also this was a one of my favorite takeaways from the Challenger customer.

Right.

So like one of my favorite books on go to market. Like everyone read the Challenger Sale or they say they read it. I don't actually believe that they say they read it. The follow up book, the Challenger Customer I thought was 10 times better than the Challenger Sale. And one of the things it talks about in that book is like you actually do need a specific unifying problem because if there's not a Unifying problem for the business. Well then the only thing people can ever agree upon is price and that. So that's why it becomes a price conversation. Because, well, I'm trying to solve this for this person and this person and this person and this person. This person. Like no, this is the specific unifying problem for the company and that's how you actually drive deals home, to actually get them there. So this word specific is just, it's so perfect for what we're trying to go through here.

Yeah, they have to agree that it's a priority problem that they need to solve now. And they all have to agree, otherwise somebody in that group will have a different priority that they want to push to the forefront.

And then the last thing I want to touch on before we start to wrap up here is I actually want to now go one layer up to specificity around leadership because leaders, I'm going to not let y' all get off the hook here. Too oftentimes leaders are also giving non specific advice and non specific ideas. Saying things like, we need more pipeline. Okay, like what? They can just go out to the pipeline patch and pick some pipeline off the trees. Right? So like let's go now all the way up to the top on how can leaders be more specific in their coaching, their, their guidelines, their recognition of their team to actually drive the performance that they're looking for?

Yeah, that's an awesome question because you see it out there and actually people as they panic because they're having a bad year or the economy's, you know, bad, they get worse with that non specific stuff like, oh, you know, we need more pipelines, we got to push more deals across the finish line, we got to raise quota, you know, whatever it might be. I think it starts with what you're measuring, you know, so sales leaders and even just company leaders that when they want information on sales, they're looking at metrics that tie into the bad kind of sales. You know, number of calls, number of emails sent, all that stuff on the front end that doesn't really mean anything and actually just encourages people to do mass outreach without any, you know, thinking about how do I actually close a deal, how do I actually establish a connection with someone where they're gonna wanna do business with me. So I think from a leadership standpoint, a, you gotta get out in the field, all right? You can't be just sitting behind a desk. You gotta be out on. You said it before about marketing, but it stands for sales leaders too, and company leaders. You've gotta be out talking to customers and prospects to understand what they're up against. And then you've gotta work really closely with your sales organization to coach them on, again, how to identify these common problems that your ICP has, what your solution, you know, how it solves it, and then give them the tools to do that and clear everything else out of their way. You know, I truly believe one of my jobs, you know, if I had to do an alternate title for what I am, would be, you know, remover of obstacles, Remover of roadblocks. Like, that's my job for myself. Sales organization get the garbage out of the way so they can spend more time just focusing on their clients and prospects and getting such a relationship with those folks that those folks put their arm around them and say, listen, man, here's what you need to do to win this deal or to drive this piece of business or to solve this problem for us. And then they get that kind of coaching. And I think leaders got to be more in tune with that versus just pushing these metrics about activity and things like that.

No, I love that because it is too often leaders are too, like, I call it results based language or what Based language. We just talk about what we want right now.

How are you going to get there?

You know, it's like the phrase I use with my leadership teams. And some of the trainings I lead is, okay, leaders talk about the what good leaders get into, the why. Great leaders help craft the how with their team.

Right?

All right, we want more pipeline. Okay, why? What will that allow me to do as a. As a seller? How will that change my commission check or blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, all right, okay, you'll make 30% more if we can generate 20% more pipeline. How. All right, we're gonna be running some of these specific trainings. Here's how many leads we should be leading up to. Like, getting into that is what then drives the team to go, okay, I can do that. I can get into that versus go get more pipeline. You know, shoot, if we're that easy, we also wouldn't be needed, right? I can lead every sales org in the country. Just, hey, y'. All, good morning. More pipeline, more revenue, please.

Yeah, maybe you need better pipeline. You know, again, the whole thing is more, more, more. Maybe it's just better pipeline. Maybe you need better qualified deals and up your close percentage instead of increasing the number of prospects you're working on. So you got to get a lot deeper than just the sheer, you know.

Base metrics, specificity my man. I'm going to be saying this next few weeks. I love it. I love it. So as we wrap here, man, right, the name of the podcast is. Is Live Better, Sell Better. Because I also have that weird idea that, like, what if, right? What would happen if we had more energy, if we had more joy, if we had more fulfillment, if we had more happiness in our. In our lives? What would happen to sales, Right. Have a weird idea that they would get better. So what would your live better advice be for people listening?

I think I love that question. I love that that that's what you, you know, you focus on as well. Because I do. That's what keeps me up at night. That's what has taken, you know, all this hair off the top of my head is thinking about my team. You know, how do I get greater participation? How do I make more people successful? How do I keep them happy and interested in sales? I'd say live better for me is, listen, overachievers are going to work hard. I stopped trying to get people from working long hours because they're built that way. Right. So that's great. But finding something outside of work that really drives you, your passion. And hopefully it's. To me, hopefully it's something outdoors. Like, I like to hike. We like to go biking, like to go, you know, walks. We've got, you know, some. Some woods up here and, you know, a lake. And I think getting outside, getting exercise, getting fresh air, you know, going on a hike, exploring kind of the. The different parts of, you know, either where you live or the country. I think that drives you to both feel better. It drives your creativity. It lets you reset a little bit. I know some of my best ideas come on those walks or hikes or bike rides. So that's why I would encourage people. Get a hobby that really embraces you and takes your mind away from your job, your day job, and then use that to help you kind of reset and recharge and just kind of drive your creativity and your productivity.

I saw a post a couple of years ago now, and I re shared it back then, and it got tons and tons of engagement. But the post was along the lines of, you know, it's like this generation has forgot about hobbies.

Yeah.

And it's like we are such a distracted generation that we. Because I can always just hop on my phone and scroll or look at something. There's endless TV shows when it's like we've forgotten about hobbies, you know, model airplanes, Legos, puzzles, art, hiking, woodworking. Knitting, like, like that's what people used to distract themselves with, right? Hobbies. And we've, we've gotten so far away from those because we have easy distractions. And so, like, funny enough, that's actually one of my goals for 2024 is like to reestablish a hobby, right? Because most of my hobby is this. I love this stuff. You know, coaching and training and learning and sharing and all of those things. Like, that is kind of my hobby. And I was like, I probably still need something outside of it to keep this healthy, to keep this sharp, to keep this moving the way that it needs to. So awesome. My man. Well, Dan, this was phenomenal. And we got very specific, which was the hope in all this. Where can people find you? Where are you putting out more content? What do you have coming up next? How can people get more Dan in their lives?

So I'm all over LinkedIn. I mean, I post several times a week, so you could definitely find me LinkedIn. That's. That's the, the best place I am on X as sales is dandy, but that's. I kind of just mess around on there. That's not really my icp, but it's a lot of fun. You know, you can, you can get into some good conversations with people. So those are the main areas. And, you know, corporate career is kind of going to be winding down. I'm not, I'm. I'm no youngster, but I am going to stay in the game. I will be definitely starting something and staying involved in sales and marketing because I love it. I mean, that's, that's the only reason to do it, right. I absolutely love things like this, being able to talk sales and marketing. So I will be staying around so you can find me on LinkedIn or maybe you can find me out on a trail.

Let's go. I love it, man. Thank you so much for your time, energy and insights today, man. Really enjoyed it.

You too. I appreciate it. Kevin, this was great. Thank you so much.