Storytelling and Story Selling with Mike Ganino

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Thank you so much. You know what's so funny is so often for these shows you like send the bio and then they read it and you're supposed to act like, oh, wow, thank you so much. Like who? And it's like something you wrote yourself. But I didn't write that myself. You actually wrote that. And I just think that shows what kind of person you are. Is that like you said? No, I'm going to do the intro. I'm going to. And I loved it. So thank you for all those kind words.

For sure, man. And I mean it. Anyone that knows me knows that truth and realness is the core of me. And I wouldn't one, invite someone I didn't think was good at what they did. But then two, the intro is real, man. Right. Like this is what you do. So we're going to dive right into it because I think what people enjoy about this show is like, no fluff, none of like the crazy backstory stuff. We get into the juice of it. So we're going to set the stage here. Why are stories so important and so powerful?

You know, it's so funny too because like for so it's almost become ubiquitous that everyone is talking about like you stories, you stories. And people are hearing of like the hero's journey and the three act structure. And I feel like so often we get so confused by the process that it's like the reason I'm not using a story is because it looks like it has 27 steps and I can't remember the order they go in. And so my thing is like, let's break it down simply. So the biggest reason to use stories is simply that they're ultimately the core way that we've learned. Imagine, you know, the story the Tortoise and the Hare. You remember that? Like that fable I'm going to remember when I'm like an old man on my deathbed. I am probably not going to remember my family members names, but I'm going to remember that slow and steady wins the race. And so when we talk about stories, it's ultimately that they're a great way to deliver an insight to somebody. And so for business purposes, for leadership, for sales purposes, the goal is not to tell a story because we need to get emotional involvement and all of these hocus pocus things. The goal is that it's the most effective way to deliver an insight, it forces people. It causes people to kind of reduce their restrictions. It kind of causes them to lower their walls a little bit so that you can deliver the insight, because that's the ultimate core. It's not about entertainment. It's not about engagement. It's about how do I deliver an insight. And at the end of the day, information alone is not why we change. I know everything I need to know about how not to have a double chin at 40 years old, Kevin. But I got a double chin at 40 years old because I don't do the workout, because I drink too much wine, because I don't eat the right things. But I know what to eat, I know what to drink, I know how little to drink, and I still don't do it. And it's not information we need because there's so many facts out there. What we need is motivation to change. And stories deliver that better than anyone.

So you said something that really actually made me kind of think. And I don't. I don't know the answer to this, and this is not a leading question. Do you know why stories are so memorable? Like, why can we remember stories better than we can? Information?

Yeah, I'm super. So I do have an answer for this because I'm super about psychology.

I kind of. I was hoping you were. I was like, I bet he actually does know this. So, yes, I'm excited to learn this. So why will you remember the tortoise and the hare? Why will you remember Goldilocks? And, like, why will you remember stories till the end but facts and figures, you don't.

The biggest reason is that they're cause and effect. And this is like a key of, like, how to tell a really great story is we're obsessed with cause and effect. When something happens, we want to know how it turns out. And so stories, all the stories you remember, episodes of Law and Order SVU are formulaic in that they get us interested in something that we know is going to change. So it's like, wait a second, what's going to happen because of that? It's why we want the bad guy. We want to watch and see what happens to the bad guy. It's why movie trailers are written in a way that they don't give you the full answer so that you have to buy a ticket to get the answer. So the reason that we remember stories is because we're linking together cause and effect. And so when something happens, we want to know how it turns out. And most of the time when we deliver just information, it's just facts and figures, facts and figures. I mean most company about pages are written this way and it's not helpful. The beginning of so many sales decks is written this way where it's like a 15 minute TED talk about the company and we call it our story, but it's really just a bunch of facts and figures and history. What we need to think about is how do we create something where there's, where it's going to change, where there's going to be a cause and effect, where there's a current world, something happens and we've got to find out what happens in the new world. Now that's why we remember stories so much. And that's how our brain thinks all of the time anyway, is like, well if this happens, what's going to be the impact of that? I mean it's. Even when you're listening to someone, if they start to just drone on about facts and figures, it's hard to like stay focused. But if they're telling a story, you kind of lean back and say, okay, I wonder what's going to happen here? How's this going to turn out? And that's why stories are so memorable.

I love it. And I would recommend anyone listening go to Mike's website. I'll include it in the comments and watch some of his presentations. Because the way he weaves in stories or more often than not, I love this starts with stories, is amazing and it pulls people in. So then, all right, so we're talking about stories. Let's get to the framework. What you know, I heard cause and effect, the hero's journey, normal, new normal, you know, change 27 step process. What is the framework to a good story?

And I think, I think one of the things that the added disclaimer I'll say is that there's frameworks that are different. If you're making a three hour movie, what we're talking about. So if you go out and you read those books and you're like, wait, that's, you know, Mike, they said that there's a book called Save the Cat, which is like a classic book for screenwriting about the process of screenwriting. And it basically is like the idea there is if you want the audience to care about the character, have them do something likable like Save a cat. But in our business purposes. So if you want to go read that and learn all about writing a screenplay for three hours, go ahead. For business purposes, I think that it's a slightly different framework, because we don't. The people we're talking to, and especially the more senior the people we talk to, the less interested they're going to be in a really long narrative, the less interested they're going to be in a hero's journey of someone going on a quest. And one day they found a hero who guided all of those things for business purposes. For salespeople specifically, I think the framework is. It's essentially a sequence of events that you're trying to help me understand where there was a current world. And in that current world, it was set up that there were going to be winners and losers. You got to make it clear, what are the winners and losers in this? And then there's a promised world of, like, what could the world look like? And then hopefully, if you're in a sales position, you've got some of the magic pills that help me get what I want in that new world. So I teach in my. And I have a little workbook we can send everyone to. It's free. But in there, there's a framework. And the simplest framework for telling a story kind of goes back to fairy tales. So in the beginning, we say, once upon a time, there was this and this happening. We're setting up the stage. What's the current world? And every day was like this. So what's going on? And then one day, so it's the third part, something shifts, which messes everything up. And because of that, this happened. And because of that, this happened. And because of that, this happened. Right? That's the middle. That's the juicy part. Until finally, aha moment, we figured it out, and then we lived happily ever after. That's the easiest way to tell a story. That's called story Spine. That comes from the world of improvisational theater. I didn't create it, but I use it a lot. And I have that in this workbook that we can share with everyone as well. But the simplest way to kind of say, do I have the right parts of the story? Here is that framework. And you know what I see a lot of salespeople get wrong, Kitty? Is that they go in and they say, hey, we were like, in a case study, right? Or a testimonial. Oh, we were working with a person just like you, and they were having some problems and they found us. And then here's what we did. And everything was happily ever after. And we did this, we did that, we did that. Which is just feature dumping, really, on the people versus saying, once upon a time there were people Just like you. And everything was really great. Everything was wonderful. But then one day, they grew so big that they couldn't handle taking whatever your. Whatever your product does. They couldn't handle all the incoming patients. And because of that, they started to get negative reviews. Because of that, they started to worry about the reputation. Because of that, they were worried about their finances. Until they found our offering, which helped them do this, this and that. And every day since then, life is happy and they have everything they need. Now, I've left the loop open for the prospect to say, well, wait a second. Is that what it could look like for me? Okay, cool. Let's talk about that versus doing all of the feature dumping as part of my story. So that's. The simple framework is Story Spy.

Okay, so you mentioned something there that I'm a big fan of, but I think needs some explanation. What are loops or open loops? Yeah.

So think about. The easiest way to think about this is. And I say this because it's been for, like, 587 years. So I use it as an example. But. But if you think of Law and Order, right, every episode is an hour long, and every episode has. There's a framework, there's a formula that it follows. And it's also on normal networks where there are commercials. So what they have to do is they have to introduce an idea. So they open a loop, they get a loop started, they get a story started. And so they say, hey, here's what's going on. Someone did this awful thing, and maybe it was the Doctor. Commercial break. So now you're sitting there thinking, well, if you've watched Law and Order, you're like, I know it's not the Doctor. This is what they do every time.

It's too obvious.

It's too obvious, but who is it gonna be? And so that's an open loop, meaning I want to solve it. Human brains are obsessed with solving problems. We are obsessed with figuring out, why is that happening, what's going on over there? It's like the reason that we're all, like, nosy neighbors is because we want to know what's. How's this going to end? And what we want to know is, am I right in how I think this is going to end? Am I going to be. Am I going to figure this out? And so a lot of times what these shows do is they give you little clues that make you write so that you feel good watching it, you watch it again. So at some point, they're going to introduce the idea that it wasn't the Doctor, it was the Janitor. And you're going to be like, I knew it. See, I knew it was the Janitor. And it's like, yeah, they wanted you to know it was the Janitor. But every commercial break and every time that you watch a. I was watching this new show. It's not new, it's in its ninth season, but new to me, called Married at First Sight. And it was on Netflix. And as I was watching it, I realized, oh, this must have originally been on normal tv, because the way that it was written was, the way that it was edited was for commercials. Because in a streaming show, what they need to do is keep you hooked at the end of the episode to keep watching and binging on a network show, what they need to do is keep the loop open so that you come back at each commercial break so that you're curious about what's happening. And then the real trick is that with the main characters, right? So like on Law and Order, you've got Olivia Benson, the main detective. Then her whole life and story is a series of opening and closing loops over the course of 22 seasons of the show. But each episode, they have to open an idea, get you interested and hooked. Solve that. But before they solve it, they need to open another loop. So that you're saying, okay, wait, well, I know it wasn't that, but could it be this person? Or I know now it wasn't that person, but could it be this other thing? So they have to keep introducing new ideas, not solving them, until they've introduced another new idea to you. And that's basically the same thing that we need to do when we're telling stories to people is keep them engaged to say, I wonder what happens next. I wonder how this is going to turn out.

I love it. And so one of the things that I also even on your website and us talking, is you talk about the different types of stories you need to have. So if we're talking about sales specifically, or we can lump it into business specifically. Well, what are the different types of stories? So you gave us a framework. What are the different types of stories we should have?

Yeah, so sales specifically. And these are not that different from. From business in general. Because I think ultimately, whenever I've worked with a company and I'm working on their sales structure, their sales narrative, working on the deck and the story, I always want to work with the CEO, because if that person isn't always telling the story, then it doesn't really matter. And so I Think that the CEO has to be like, the person telling the story. It's what you need for fundraising, it's what you need for media. It's what you need when you go speak at conferences. So I think it's the same thing. And at the end of the day, it's about. You need to have stories about you, the company. Like, what are you all about? What do you do? You might have a personal story, depending on what level of sales and what you're doing. So it depends on whether or not that's relevant to who you're selling to. But you would have a story about you. And the challenge here that so many companies and so many people get wrong. And this is also great if you're out there interviewing, by the way, if you're going to be looking for a new gig or something, the part of it when they say, tell us something about yourself, that's not an introduction to talk about from birth to right now in this moment, how you got here in a logical, linear way, because it's so boring. What they're asking is, tell me something that shows me who you are. And the best way to do that is with a story. So instead of saying, well, I'm a kid who grew up here and I did this and I went to college, then I got this job, then I got that one to say, you know what? I remember this time when I was 25, I had this job and this thing was going on, and I was always curious about this. And then this happened, and I realized what I really loved was helping people solve difficult problems. And so I've done that in this job and that one and the other. And I'm constantly looking for ways to do that. And that's the moment when you see the person you're interviewing kind of sit back and be like, huh, okay, what's going on here? This is pretty good versus your life story told in five minutes. What we're asking is tell me a story about you that helps me understand who you are. So you need stories about you stories about your company. What you need is stories about why you do what you do. And so this is, again, either you or your company. And again here, the answer is not like, mission statement BS where we say, we are here to change the way people. You know, I saw this the other day. This sign said, like, changing the way people. People brush their teeth or clean their teeth or something like that. I was like, changing it from what? To what? Like, that doesn't sound.

Is that a billboard? I think I Can picture it's a billboard or something. It's like changing the way people. Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about.

So many mission statements, and it's so many of those things. What we want to hear in the why story is tell us. I call them the WTF moments. What was the moment? And we could say friction if we want, but when was it? Like, what? The friction moment where you said, hold on, like, there's got to be a better way. What is going on here? That would be the story I would use to talk about why your company was created. Not that like, one day the founder sat down and believed in better ways of brushing teeth, but what was the moment when somebody said, wait a second, this is wrong. This is a mess. There's got to be a better way to do this. So there's the why story, there's the where story, and the where story is, where are we now? What does the current world look like? And if the current world looks pretty good, then I don't need what you're selling. So you got to figure out why the current world is a bad place for me. What would be my compelling reason to think? To look around and say, ooh, this is kind of a mess. What you need to do in the where story is create a current world and a future world. And in the current world, you've got to set it up. You've got a name. The game that's being played today, you got to give that game a name. And that's your story of what's it like today. Who are the winners? Who are the losers? What's happening? And you need to make it a place that if someone isn't using your product, if someone doesn't hire you, if someone doesn't invest in your company, in your startup, then the world is like dystopian. It doesn't look so good. And then what you introduce is the promised land. You introduce a future world, a story about what it could look like. Here's what I imagine it looking like. These are going to be what the winners are doing, and hopefully it's with your product. If not, go find a new product to sell. But hopefully your product is helping people win in this world. And you describe what it looks like, your product, then all of the features of your product are tied to the magic pills that they need to win in the new world. That's the story we need to be able to tell.

Can, like, I think this we're going to dive into this year. So the where story could you give us either an example or a kind of a framework. If I'm a sales rep listening one, every sales rep needs to have this right, because we're trying to disrupt the status quo. We're trying to make it where what they have now is no longer as desirable as they thought it was. I tell a lot of people to sell someone something new. You also have to unsell them on what they have. A where story sounds like it does a great job of doing that. How can I go about building a good where story? Or could you give us an example of one that people could take and go like, all right, I could see how to make that work for my product?

Yeah. If it was me, for example, I sell workshops and training and coaching on storytelling and public speaking skills. If it was me, I might be talking to someone like you. And this sounds like a real story. Right. I might be talking to someone like you. And what I would say is something like, you know, it's interesting. Today, so many, so many leaders in sales organizations are trying to get the right matrix, trying to get the right metrics, trying to get the right numbers, trying to look at all the right training, trying to get the right books to their people. And we're looking at skill sets, we're looking at what words are they're saying, we're giving them scripts, and at the end of the day, we look around, and none of it's really making a big difference. We're spending time and energy, we're teaching people to do something that in a month, we're going to unteach them. In a year, it's going to be a new initiative. And what they really need to be able to do is to tell the story of the organization, to tell the story of what the product is going to look like in the hands of the prospect. What they need to be able to do is listen to what your current clients are saying and turn that into narratives that they can share that aren't scripted, because nobody wants scripted. The days of, like, somebody wanting to hop on a call and have, like, a perfectly scripted conversation with a salesperson, we are all, the gig is up. We all know what that looks like, and nobody wants it. And so what is the most effective way to really connect with them? It's learning how to tell the kinds of stories that people need to hear. And if we don't do that, we're just going to get run over by other people. Because the ones who are winning are the people who can tell a narrative that gets a prospect's attention and then puts your product into their world in a way that they say, I don't know how I would survive without it. And the most effective way to take your product and put it inside of your customer's mind is with a story. And so if we don't get your team storytelling skills, then what are you going to spend your energy on that you're going to have to redo next year versus teaching them the one skill set they need to win in this new economy. And so that's what I would do.

Well, damn, now I need to sign up for some storytelling. And by the way, everyone who's listening, this is also why I wanted to bring Mike in, because I agree with everything that he just said there. First of all, and it's true. The storytelling it does. It actually is funny how this is looped back to what you said at the beginning. You just compared stories we remember forever. Learning how to tell great stories is a skill you can have forever. No matter what company you move to, no matter what industry you move to, if you know how to tell great stories, that can stick with you. And so that's a good setup to the next question. So, all right, this is amazing. I'm getting some frameworks. How do I become good at telling stories? Like, well, yeah, Mike, you could take the dictionary and make it sound exciting, like, I'm not you. Like, how do you. How do you become good at telling the stories? Because there are. You can have the framework, but almost every story technically is a script. It's just the actor doesn't make it come alive. So how can I develop the skill of telling a story?

The biggest thing is that it's one, it's always done best when it's natural. So if so, let's say that I came and worked with you and I was going to be in a sales role, and you said, okay, here's the story, here's the product story, here's the founding story. What I would do is I would say, okay, great, I need to look at the story and figure out, are there places where it makes sense to me? Are there places where I can say, oh, you know what? I've actually had an experience that was similar to this. So let me think about what that felt like as a patient or as a user of this product, what would that have been like? And so I would first look at it and say, how do I kind of internalize it? And then, two, my way of rehearsing it would not be reading it like, what you give me or reading the sheet of paper. Because the other thing that happens, by the way, if you do sit down and start writing the story, is that we don't write the same way we talk, which is good because we don't read the same way we listen. Because if you wrote me a letter. So this is where when people take what's on the about page of the website and try to memorize that, why it sounds so fake is because we don't read the same way that we listen and we don't talk the same way that we write and we shouldn't. And so what I would do is I would read that story, I would get it in my bones, and then I would say, great, let me put it down and let me practice trying to tell it in my own words. Let me actually, like, these are the things that like managers think about, like, what should I be doing during coaching? This is the kind of stuff we should do during calls. This is the kind of stuff during weekly sales meetings. When I work with organizations and I come in for a day, I always leave them behind with like, here's what you should do ongoingly. And I also do that. So when I work with them, they also get 13 weeks of follow up from me. So it can either be a video weekly or an email weekly with like, hey, here's a story to practice and some ideas for the week. So practice a story like this. Here are some prompts. What I advise the leadership teams to do is to say, pick someone every week and say like, hey, let's run through a story. Let's run through this kind of thing. Let's run through that. Because the more that you are able to internalize it, the more that you'll just be able to tell it without feeling nervous, the more you'll be able to stop, start, jump back in. If the person says, wait, what was going on? You could say, okay, hold on, let me tell you really quick. And then jump back in your circle. Because that's how we naturally tell stories. We start, we stop, we don't say complete sentences. So my advice would be get the story down. And if you're someone who's like, I don't know, when I sit down to write it, nothing comes out. Then get your phone, get your little voice memo on and go walk around the block and talk to yourself. Nobody knows you're talking to yourself because it's 2020. I just think you're on the phone. So go walk around the block and talk to yourself. Talk through the story. Okay, this happened this happened. That happened. Now take it back, transcribe it, and see if you can move things around. Are there parts of it that were boring? Are there parts of it? We thought, well, I was talking about, like, I was talking about, like, what the building looked like, but that doesn't really matter to the story. So I can remove it, because everything that you say is taking up energy from your listener. And if you're taking up too much energy from your listener, then you make it very hard for them to make a decision later. Because what happens is. And this happens to a lot of salespeople, they start to get fatigued. And so then they say, you know what? I feel like, whoa, there's so much going on here that I need to step back because I don't even know what to do. What you want them to say at the end is, wow, there's clearly only one thing I can do. I saw what the current world looks like and what's going to happen to me if I don't change. And I saw what my world could look like, and so I'm ready to go. But if we have too many details, we have too much information that's not relevant, then they get fatigued, and then they say, I'd rather do nothing, then make the wrong choice because I'm tired.

That was gold. I have never heard anybody put it together like that. That is so gold. And it also. It goes back again to kind of how you said it, I think easier or stories are easier on the brain to follow and pick up on than facts and figures. Right. We're talking like, why do we remember story or stories better? Why can you remember episode 462 of SVU? You know, like, we can remember them better. I've never heard a phrase that's absolutely genius. If we wear people out in the sales process, they're fatigued by the end, and so they can't make a decision because their brains are already fried.

Yeah. And when our brains are fried, what we. We don't. We don't give the person on the other side credit of being like, wow, they're so smart. I must do what they say. What we say is, wait a second. Am I about to be tricked? So then I'm like, I really am going to need to take this back.

That was good. See, this is why I love this, because I get to learn during this stuff, too. So that was gold. So then let's flip it, right? We've talked about some of the good ways to do it. What are some of the mistakes people make when this is kind of a two part question. The mistakes they make when trying to craft a story and the mistakes you see people make when they're trying to tell a story.

Okay, I'll start. This is completely about business stories. But I think it applies to like, even if you're going to get on stage, the number one mistake I think people make is that they're not clear on what the insight is, they're not clear on what the moral of the story is. So they get into it and they're like talking details and they're this and they're that. They're like, wait, what is this supposed to deliver? And in a great business story, in a great leadership story, a great sales story, what we need to know is what is the moral or the insight I'm trying to deliver. And then every single thing that I say, every detail I add, every loop I open, every hook I put in there needs to be about delivering that insight. So if my insight is that slow and steady wins the race, now I start my story now I say, great. What I'm trying to prove is that slow and steady wins the race. So now what needs to go in to make that happen, that's number one mistake I see people make is they're not clear on why am I telling this. What is the tweetable ending to this story. That's like, so that's why I'm recommending you do this. Because slow and steady wins the race. That's number one. And that alone can fix so many things. Number two is that they, they don't, they tell stories to deliver a lot of information instead of trying to create change. So they tell stories to say I need to give them all this information instead of saying my real goal in telling the story and I should tell it as minimally and as efficiently as possible to get to where I want to go. Versus I need to put all this in here because maybe something will work. Versus saying I need to focus on the change I'm trying to make and how do I only put in what serves that.

That'S actually kind of leads into the next one a little bit. So how do I know if I have a good story or not? Like, okay, I've been walking around the block like a crazy person. I talked to myself. I went new normal post normal guide, Sherpa resolution, insight. How do I know if my story is any good? Right. How do I know if it's the message or the messenger?

Yeah. So one is teletism people. So If I was someone, if I was in a sales role and I wanted to. And I see people in. I've worked with a lot of real estate agents, and one of the things I find really, really great about real estate agents that I don't see as broadly in other salespeople is they, like, practice a lot with each other. Like, I see there's some brokerages that I've worked with, and they're like. Agents are like, practicing their sales on each other all the time. They're practicing dealing with objections all the time on each other. I would say to do that at lunch, be like, hey, I'm working on this new thing. Can I deliver it to you? And you tell me what you think the insight is. Was there any part when you got bored? So don't tell them what the insight is and see if they can guess. Was there any part of it that you thought, like, who cares? This is boring. Was there any part of it where you wanted to know more information? Was there any part where you. Where you kind of zoned out? Because that may be a part where you need to look and say, how do I increase the stakes here so that someone listens? Or how do I take it out if it doesn't matter? So those are the ways I would look at it. And then I would look and see. Does it have all of the elements that I said earlier? Does it have enough beginning to help us understand what's happening? Does it have enough, like, these are the stakes so that people say, wow, I wonder how it turns out? And I would look at it almost like a checklist. And in this. In this workbook, in this guide that I have that everyone can get, there's like a checklist on how to look for this. Exactly. How to kind of pressure test it.

That's amazing. I love the questions. Can you say those one more time? The questions you should ask someone. So, hey, can you listen to my story? And you said you want to ask them. Could you pick up on what the insight was? You said, were there any places you got bored? Because I think this is a mistake we make. And I can say, even I'll make is, how was this? What'd you think of the story? And they'll be like, the story was good. I'm like, all right. Like, okay, like, I got it. But that's not the right question to ask. So what. What sort of feedback should I be asking for after I've crafted a personal story or a professional story?

Yeah, it's funny too. Like, when you think about when you go to see speakers at an event, what does everyone do at the end? Even if it sucks, what do you do? Clap.

Even if it sucks.

So that's what we're using as our feedback measure. We have to understand that people in general are pretty kind. So that's not going to help you if you want to get ahead. So I would ask, number one, hey, I'm going to tell you a story. I'm not going to tell you what the point of the story is, and I want to see if you can write it down. So will you write down what you think the point of the story is? What's the insight? 2. Was there any point in it where you were confused, lost, or bored? Because if I get confused, lost or bored, as a buyer gone, I'm not paying it. I'm worried that you're lying. I'm worried there's something missing. We only need a small amount of doubt to not believe someone. So that would be the second thing. What I would never ask them is, did you like it? Did you think it was good? Was it interesting? Because that's not what you're trying to figure out. I would also ask, were you curious about how it ended throughout the story? Were you curious of how is this gonna end? Because if they're not, then you're gonna. You're gonna lose their attention. So those would be like the big three things I would look for. Okay.

No, I like that because I think feedback is important. But if we're asking for the wrong type of feedback, we don't get the lessons, right? Like, we don't get the actual learning lessons from them. So then with this, what are some great resources, right? Like, I hope so far people are like, whoa, I need to sharpen up my story game here. And I hope that is the takeaway because this is. It's so important. What are some resources, right? Like, are there books? Are there thought leaders? Obviously, everyone listening should be following you right now. But, like, where. How can I start to immerse myself in storytelling?

Yeah, I mean, the biggest thing I think is that it is one of those things that the only way you get better is by doing it with in a controlled environment, getting feedback and doing that kind of thing. So if it was me and I was wanting to work on this kind of thing, if I wanted to get. If I was interviewing, I would do as much. And it's not mock like people. That's the thing that's hard is, like, a lot of people don't like doing role plays. With storytelling, it's not a role play. I'm actually telling you a story right now. I'm actually trying to see if you're engaged. So it's not role play necessarily. It's me actually, like trying out my story on you. So I would say the only way you're going to get better, you could read every book. You could listen to every guru, you could watch every TED Talk. But you're not going to get better if you actually don't try. It's kind of like swimming. I could read every book I want on swimming. I can watch everyone swim. But I'm not going to throw me in the deep end if I haven't actually been there. I'm going to drown no matter how much I've read. It's like the thing on the plane when they try to teach you how to open the wing and an exit. You just better hope the person figures it out because that little sheet is not going to help them.

There's no practice.

So number one is to practice. But little things like say that you're working on a new. You're doing a new case study. Talk about it over coffee with your friend. When you walk with your friend to lunch, be like, oh, hey, I want to run you through something I'm working on. And do it casually because think about the best stories in your life. If I said, like, where did you grow up? Where did you go to school? What was your favorite hobby? You'd be able to tell a story about that because it's just in your bones. The stories you tell at work can be the same way, but only if you try them, if you practice them. So that would be the number one thing, is trust yourself and do more of it. Two, get my guide@mikeganino.com Storycraft it's free. Just go over there. You can get that. So mikeganino.com storycraft will give you the guide which has prompts to help trigger your brain of, like, what kinds of stories should you tell? And it has outlines so you know how to put the stories together. Number three. Some people I love who are really great at this stuff. Kendra hall, she's great at this. I'm a big fan of the way she teaches. There's an organization called Anecdote. They do a great job teaching this. They have a couple of books out there. Who else do I think is really great at this kind of thing? I mean, I was a good place to start though. Yeah, I think that's enough.

Yeah. And something that he mentioned there That I also hope you realize is use as many opportunities you can to tell stories. So when someone says, where did you grow up? Bells should be going off in your head of like, okay, I'm going to tell a story here, right? Avoid just saying, oh, you know, I grew up in la. That's facts. Practice telling a short, sweet story about la. Well, my parents actually were from here and they moved over here and you know, like all the, like you can tell stories everywhere. You can tell stories in the drive thru. You can tell stories like practicing stories where there's also no pressure, right? Like something I preach a lot to my teams is like practice on purpose, not on prospects, you know, because if you're not practicing on purpose, if you're not practicing with everyone else, you're practicing with the prospect. Because the first time you're telling that story is practice, right? And so doing it everywhere that you can, I think is incredibly important.

So what happens is people practice on the prospect, it doesn't work the first time. And then they throw it away and say, well, it doesn't work.

Yeah, salespeople love the number one. If it works once, they're like, oh, I've got this magic line. It only worked one time out of a thousand. But like, I got this magic line. Or worse. They try it once, it doesn't work. Nah, nah. Katie and Mike, they don't know they're talking about, I told a story one time and it didn't work. So never gonna tell stories again. So it's just awful. So we got two actually, we got three questions here left, right? So the first one I just called the big three, right? So they've been listening to us talk about stories and hopefully they're bought in. But if there were three things that you wanted them to remember, right? Say they forgot this whole episode. Except for three things. When it comes to storytelling, what were the three things you want everyone to walk away with?

Number one is the simple, simple structure. If you're in it and you're like, wait, what was the structure? What were all the outlines? The number one thing is the current game. Describe that in a way. Set the picture. So I say, whoa, that sucks, I'm gonna lose. Two, set up the future game so that I want it. And three, make it so that what you're selling is what I need in order to win in that game. That would be number one. Number two, focus on the insight. Figure out your insight first and then go get your story to deliver that insight. And the great thing is you can usually have, like, one story that works for three or four insights. You change one bit. And then number three is if your story is not about a change from the beginning to the end, then you need to go back to work. So look for change. So structure, insight, and change.

Love it. Okay, now this next one came straight from the group, right? So this, you know, from the group. I say, hey, what do you want me to ask Mike? And I got a good one here. Case studies versus testimonials versus stories. How do you make a case study believable? I think earlier on in here, you brought up the idea of a case study. Oh, we worked with Betty sue, and she loved us. And now we've three X' ed her results. Don't you wanna be like Betty? And no one believes the case study or they sure as hell don't remember them. So how do you craft customer stories?

Yeah. So the biggest thing there is to use that. That map that I said before of, like, what was the current world of that, of the case study? So I'm telling Betty's story. What I need to do is look back and say, what was Betty going through at the beginning? Because a lot of times what happens in testimonials and case studies is we ask somebody, hey, what was it like working with me? And what they describe is what it was like working with you at the end.

Right.

That is not why the person on the call is hiring you. What they're hiring you for is the person's beginning. So a lot of times with me, what will happen is someone will say, oh, my gosh. Working with Mike, I was able to feel so confident and capable. I had a lot of fun. I'm able to be myself in front of people now when I speak. But no one is Googling that on the Internet, Right? What they're googling is, I'm nervous. I'm not sure what to say. I get stage fright. So what I need my case study to say is Betty used to suffer from stage fright. She would get ready, her knees would wobble. When she stood up, her voice sounded like Big Bird, and she just couldn't get her words out. And that was causing her to not get advancement at work. It was causing her to lose deals. It was causing her to not go for jobs because she was scared that she wouldn't be able to show up, even though she knew she could do the work. So what she did is she tried this thing, and now Betty is one of the most confident, capable people. She just did a TedX and she's winning everywhere. The yay, yay, yay part can be a much smaller part at the end. The rest of the story needs to serve the current prospect in front of you, saying, wait a second, how did you get that? I want some of that. Then you say, oh, cool, let me show you the product. That's what you want. Versus shoving the product in their mouth during the case study. Yes. Love it, love it. That's gold there.

So, okay, last question here, Mike. Last one. Right. So the name of the podcast is Live Better Sell Better. Right. And something that means a lot to me is that we focus on the person in salesperson. So often all we talk about are the sales side of the salesperson. We forget there's a person at the end of it. And so what would be your piece of advice for the person in salesperson? Right. A way to live better, get more out of life, more fulfillment. Like, what would be your parting life advice?

I think probably two things. One is because I've worked with so many salespeople over my career. One is, you are not your last sale.

Yes, you are.

You are more, you are bigger, you are better. And so you are not your last sale if you didn't get it or if you did get it. That is not who you are. Your history is not your story. And so don't beat yourself up. Don't beat yourself up. You are not your last sale. That would be one thing. And then two, and this is just the big thing I think everyone should be doing is, you know, you hear a lot of people saying like, oh, I'm living the dream. And so often what I've experienced is most people have never sat down and say, whose dream am I living?

Right?

And so for me, what that looks like is, you know, we talked a lot about that future story. What's it look like when it's all going well? I think we should all do that for ourselves. We should have a really clear vision of like, it's January 1, 2025. Here's what's going on. Like, imagine you're a little bird looking over your life and describe what's happening in great detail so that you can start to build towards that. And this isn't about, like, I know we live in la, but it's not about like, woo woo affirmations or something. It's about being really clear so that, you know, this is where I'm headed and so that you can look at it as you're making decisions, as you're looking at new opportunities. Someone reached out to me the other day and said, hey, this job came up. Do you think I should take it or not? I was like, maybe, maybe not. I don't know. What are you trying to create? What do you want? Because it sounds like an awful job if this is what you want. But it sounds like a great job if this is what you're trying to do. What do you want next? And is this going to help you get there? One, you're not your last sale. And two, do you have a really clear vision of what a successful life looks like for you? Sit down and write that out.

Hell yes. Mike, my man, this was so good. I learned things during this. I hope the audience learned things during this. Thank you so much. Like this. This was amazing. It was fun and informative. Like, seriously, thank you so much for your time today, man.

Thank you for having me.

Hell yeah.