The Psychology of Closing with Mark Kosoglow

Every company has breakdowns in their revenue process. Sure thing. Deals slip into next quarter, competitors creep in and swipe deals away at the last minute, and deals getting single threaded that don't get to power. These are just a few examples of revenue leak, but there are a ton more and they're preventing your team from reaching their sales targets. That's why I'm such a big fan of Clary's Revenue platform is the only tool that actually helps leaders take control of their revenue and thrive through any market conditions, especially when things get tough. You can't afford to miss a single detail, but you also can't be leading by gut. Clary combines the science and the art of sales and sales leadership. So go to clary.com if you want to answer the most important question in your business. Are you going to meet, beat or Miss on revenue? Welcome to the live Better Sell Better podcast with your host Kevin Dorsey of Inside Sales Excellence, the number one Patreon group and YouTube channel for tech sellers and tech sales leaders, where we dive in deep for tactical advice on how to book more meetings, close more deals faster, and lead sales teams to success. But we don't stop there. We also focus on the person in salesperson. We talk about mindset goals, time management and so much more. So thank you for listening and if you're interested, head on over to patreon.com InsideSalesExcellence now with that, grab a notepad, get ready and let's dive into the good stuff. What up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the live Better Sell Better podcast. This is your host Kevin Dorsey, AKA KD and oh, we're bringing it back and to the future today because I have on the show someone one I consider a very good friend, someone two I consider a phenomenal leader and someone three who I think understands the closing process better than most VPs out there because he has been living, breathing and using the product that he sells for the last six, seven years. What's interesting for a lot of VPs and teams is they don't actually use their tool. And so then we wonder why they never learn how to properly sell it. It's a rare opportunity to speak to a VP who's been using and selling their tool for almost a decade and optimizing and changing and tweaking and making things better. In case you don't know who I have at this point, I have Mark Kozaglov on the show today who I have seen growth from outreach when they were just small couple people in a bedroom closet to the behemoth that they are now in the space and we are going to be diving into closing. But the psychology behind it, the process behind it and how to do it the right way. This dude gets selling, he gets closing. Mark, my man, welcome to the show.

What's up? You're the second famous KD in the world, I hear.

I will take it. You know, like, I may never be number one because I'm not as tall, but if I can be number two famous kd, like I can check that box, I'm all right with it.

You're better looking. That's got to count for something that is fair.

But then someone like you shows up on my show and just completely shadows that out of the fat too. So now the first question I have to start with is whatever happened to Krillin it? Like, Krillin it was the thing for like four to five years. Like whatever happened to it?

Krillin it was. I was goofing around with the team way back in the day and I was getting them pumped and I said, guys, we can't just crush it, we can't just kill it, we need to Krill it. And I had a friend of mine who was in the office putting up some vinyl decorations as an artist and he came in, literally I have in my office right now with a five foot tall, four foot wide picture of a Krill saying Krillin it. And boom. Which, you know, I do a bunch of boom stuff and, and so I put that up there. But you know, after a while when you start selling to, to, you know, the CRO of IBM and all that kind of stuff, like I don't know if they want to see a cartoon Krill saying boom on your LinkedIn profile. So it's time to grow up a little bit, I guess.

I don't know. I still love it and I was sad to see it go. But anyway, we'll get into the real stuff today around closing because I said it in the intro a bit like you're, you're very unique in the industry because of the fact you get to use your product, which allows better understand how people actually buy because you also would be a buyer for your product. So let's start there for a little bit in terms of how can a leader or a team better understand how people buy their product? Because I think that's where a lot of people miss from the get go is they have no idea how people would buy it. How can people start to learn that process? How would my buyers actually buy this product?

Yeah, I Think what's interesting is that, you know, it's very, as you said, rare to sell what you use and to use what you sell. And, like, I always tell reps all the time that are. We're hiring here, like, listen, you might sell security software, but you'll never use it. So you'll never understand it. You never really develop a passion for it because your hands aren't in it. And so I think that that's, you know, a unique thing at Outreach is I'm ultra passionate about it because I literally use it every single day for my own success, and I watch my team use it for our company success. But I would say in my past life, though, I sold, let's say one time my company came up with a curriculum for executive functioning. And executive functioning is kind of like organization prioritization, how you take notes, and they worked with experts, and they work. I went around to schools with my reps, and we sold this executive functioning thing. And so now, listen, I'm not a teacher, right? I wasn't taking the executive functioning course. But what I did is I really started to understand, why should someone get passionate about using this? Like, and so I went and found a few people that were just like, the executive functioning gurus in my region of, like, 12 states. And I was like, just get me pumped up about executive functioning. Like, why does it change your life? Why does it help students? Why should my people be pumped about it? And then I just created that kind of energy around it. But I think that the thing is, you can understand how they buy, but the more important part is why are they passionate around buying it? So go figure that out. Like, get yourself pumped up if you're not excited about what you sell, Katie, like, get out. That sounds like. That sounds like a trap, man. That's like a jail. Like, why would I sit in a jail selling something I don't. I'm not passionate about? I've never done that. I never would do that. But listen, I think that that's. That's the key, man. Go figure out, like, why you should get excited about what you're selling.

And what I like about that is, you know, you're going to the source to get excited. Because I do think a lot of times I hear this all the time in the interview process, right? Of, like, I'm interviewing reps. Like, oh, well, why didn't you succeed where you were? And it's like, I wasn't passionate about the process product. I've always been like, like, is that a. That. That's the only reason why you didn't succeed. What I love about what you're talking about is go find people that are and hear from them, Hear those stories, hear that energy, hear that enthusiasm so that you can feel that way. Because you may never feel as passionate about it as a user would, but if you talk to them enough, you remind yourself why you're doing it. So I really, I really, really like that because passion is, it's missing in sales right now, man. Like, it's missing. I can't actually remember the last demo I sat in where I was like, wow, this person really, like, cares about what they're selling or really is enthusiastic about what they're selling. Like, do you, do you coach your reps to that? Do you talk to that? Like, how do you keep that passion high for your people? So it does come across in the sales process.

So we have a saying here. Let your passion overcome your professionalism. You're so worried about sounding smart. You're so worried about phrasing stuff the right way that you're not afraid to get a little ugly, a little dirty, and a little bit of, you know what you're saying that outreach won't, won't affect your reps performance. I'm telling you, that's bs, man. I'm calling BS right now. Like, you're going to have to explain to me like, you know, you got to push back, not just like, do it. So I think that that, that passion part sometimes gets buried because we're so worried about our technique or not saying something that offends somebody. And what that translates into is it translates into you not being you and when you aren't you. People don't want to buy from you because they don't know who the heck they're buying from. So, like, you know, some people aren't like me and animated and energetic and like, argument to me isn't negative. Argument to me is an understanding. Like, you and I can argue about something and it's not a negative to me, it's me helping to understand. And I'm feeling your emotion levels on it. You're feeling my emotion levels on it. We can walk away having learned more about each other and being tired because of that. Some people don't aren't like that. You know, they don't, they don't like the confrontation. They would rather have a more academic, neutral conversation than I would, and that's fine. But you still got to find like, your source and make sure that that source always trumps everything else. You're doing your technique, your professionalism, all that stuff. If you do that, I think you got a real chance to be great in sales.

No, no. And I think it's so important. I hope people listening, grasp this. Like, you have to be intentional with this. Like, intentional with your energy. If you not. Or if you are not intentionally bringing energy or intentionally bringing enthusiasm or passion, it's not going to be there. And it does just become boring as the buyer sitting in the demo, like, oh, all right, can we. Can we just get to pricing already? Like, I'm bored, I'm bored. I'm tired of this. This is not fun. Right? Like, let's just get to pricing. Cause that's all at this point I care about. Whereas if the demo is engaging, if that process is fun and you do look forward to speaking to that individual, you get. You buy yourself more time.

Right?

You get to engage a little bit more. And I mean, I still remember you challenged me in the sales process with outreach and like, and I challenged back, and you challenged back, and I challenged back. And then it was over. And we go right along to the next step. Right. There was no, like, you know, bad ill or ill will feelings. And I think people miss on that so often, especially for the sales reps.

So how do you actually.

So we'll go here. How do you help your reps have that confidence? Because I think reps oftentimes, they're afraid to challenge someone like myself or someone like you. Right? Because they're the AE and they're speaking to a VP or an svp. How do you help your reps have the confidence to maybe have those challenging conversations or to push back on someone who maybe quote unquote outranks themselves? How do you give them that sort of, like, oomph to say, hey, no, you can do this?

Yeah. So a couple things is, one is like just going back for a second to your thing about I'm not passionate about the product. Part of a sales rep's job is to get passionate about what they're doing. And like, if somebody interviewed with me and said, I'm not passionate about the product, that's already a red flag that this person can't get themselves hyped up about what they're doing and can't make decisions about what they can get hyped up about. Right. So, but like the comp. So it's funny, our number one OKR for the sales org this year came out of our biggest learning of COVID And what that is is our number One OKR is simply this is this. We want to create a positive supporting environment that makes reps confident enough to take the risks it takes to win big deals. And so the way that you build the confidence is you make it the center of the culture that you have. Like I tell every manager I hire here, I tell them, listen, you have to make a decision and be honest with yourself. If you're a carrot or a stick person. We are not stick people here. We are carrot people. Now, that doesn't mean we don't hold people to a high level of accountability, but the way that you do that defines how you are as a leader. And we are carrot people. We are. Man, I know you got more in you, man. I know that you could have done better in that call. Tell me three ways I know you got it in you to figure it out. Right? I know that you weren't sad satisfied last week with what you did on your call numbers. How are you going to change it this week? Like, how are you going to get better? And that positive and supportive environment causes reps one to get vulnerable, to expose risk. And when they're starting to do that, then you can actually help them with the things. And then when you help them, they get better. And getting better makes you more confident. And it's just like kind of wheel that you have to turn. And the minute that you get into Katie, man, you committed that last week, and now it's out of the forecast, dude, like, I'm going to get my butt chewed because of that. The minute that you go to that easy button BS kind of leadership, the confidence levels drop, the positive and supportiveness drop, and then you're out. But if you say, hey, Katie, last week you dropped that, you had that in commit, it dropped out of your forecast. Like, help me understand what's going on there, man. How can I help you get that back in? What do we misunderstand? Like, how can I get in there and help you get this over the line? When you do that, everything else comes along. And I think that that's our biggest learning in Covid. It's like, just be positive and supportive with people and the other stuff will kind of come.

I love that. And now everyone listening. What I want you to do, I want you to rewind 45 seconds and listen to how his tone changed. Because this is something I work on with my managers a lot as well, is like, I want you to hear what I'm saying, but I also want you to hear how I'm saying it. Because the what delivered the wrong way, you could say exactly what Mark just said, but it was still like, hey, you committed that. Help me understand what happened here. If you go that tone with it, you're missing. And I think that's where they don't understand the tone. So go back and listen, because he can't even help it. He's been doing this for so long. Immediate tone switch. Immediate tone switch. When he goes into that supportive mode. And that's what drives people, they need to know their managers believe in them, they are okay to make a mistake. If they feel their manager believes, if they feel their manager doubts, that's when they're afraid to make the mistakes. They hide mistakes, and they never actually break out of that. And so go back and listen, y', all, because that tone switch was. Was beautiful. Like, it's just natural for you at this point, which is great. So now you've talked about taking risks to close big deals, so I want to talk about closing deals because I believe you're a phenomenal closer and you understand the actual process to it. So I want to break down kind of your cult tips and tactics at Discovery. The demo champion selling and, like, that negotiation close. Right? So let's start at Discovery.

Right?

Walk us through, I guess, either how you coach your people or what you think the core elements of Discovery are. You had a poll recently even about, like, how complex Discovery seems to be, you know, becoming. So talk about discovery a little bit on how to set it up the right way and to actually help the close. 3 months, 5 months, 6 months down the line.

Yeah. Yeah. So here's the thing is, is most reps, until they get a certain level of experience and tribal knowledge, are going to struggle with really great discovery. And even when they get to that point, sometimes they get so been there, done that, that they force the conversation down a route. So you actually need a discovery framework. Ours is called Digging the Pain Hole. All right? And so what I always say, kd, is like, listen, if you're walking along the beach and you find two gold coins, do you pick them up thinking, that's the treasure? Or are you like, whoa, I'm gonna go get me a shovel and a backhoe. I'm gonna see if there's a treasure chest down here. That's what I'm gonna go do. You know what I mean? I'm gonna go start digging a hole. And what most salespeople do is they walk away, and they're like, I got two gold coins. I'm better off today. And nobody that do two gold coins doesn't change your life. A treasure chest of them does. Right? And the same thing for deals. So the and pain hole works is first, you provoke. You start with a provocative question. Here will be an example of that, Katie. Like, you know, I know you guys just had this big merger. I would love to know what the CEO came in to the boardroom with that first day. And he wrote on the whiteboard and he underlined it, and he was so upset that he jammed the end of the dry marker into the marker when he was putting a period at the end of it. What was that that he wrote? And, you know, so you provoke them. You put them in a state. You give them a mental picture. You know, last time you're sitting down with lunch with three of your reps. Like, what did they complain about the entire time? And then one of them didn't even finish eating their lunch because they were so upset. You know, I mean, like, get them in. Don't just say, like, what's your three biggest challenges? That's a bullshit question. Yes, it's lazy. So you provoke. And then the second thing is, is then you got to start to dig, right? And the dig is very simple, is this is where a lot of people make it harder than it has to be. So let's say that you say, well, Mark, you know, we need to convert our inbound leads at a higher rate. All you have to do is take whatever they say, actively listen, and package up a part of it and ask for clarification. Katie, you just said inbound leads. I talked to a lot of sales leaders. What does inbound leads mean for you? Because it seems to mean something different for everybody. And guess what? Now I get. I get a whole all this color around what's going on, right? And that helps me, like, kind of understand, like, where you're at, what you're doing, why you're thinking about it. And so you might have to do a couple of those to dig, right? The reason that you're digging is to create a hypothesis. And so the last thing that you do is you do diagnose and confirm. You say, katie, what I just heard was inbound leads come in through your website. Your financial plan is you need to convert those at 30%. You're at 22% right now. Like, do I have that? And the reason for that might be because your reps don't have a standardized process. Do I have that right? And then, you know, if you have it right, they go off for 10 minutes about how you have it right and give you more information. If you have it wrong, they correct you. And then all you do is once you have that thing tight and you have you kind of set, then you do a vision of the future. Well, actually, imagine this. We have, you know, patient pop is. Is actually, you know, converting inbound leads at 37%, and their goal was 22%. This is how we got on there, right? And I'll show you that in the demo on the next meeting. But, like, I wanted to let you know, like, we got a path to be able to get you to where you need to go. So is you. You provoke, you dig, diagnose, and confirm. And then a vision of the future. That is a generic discovery framework. I don't care what you're selling, who you are, you can do that because it doesn't require any travel knowledge. It has a provocative question. And then listen to what they say and ask them to clarify, and you're good to go.

And I loved the treasure analogy because I also think oftentimes reps skip gold because they were looking for diamonds, right? It's like they're not even. Like they heard something would be gold, but they're like, no, I'm looking for diamonds. And so they just walk past the gold like they don't even recognize it for the treasure that it is. And I've been like, I do. And you probably do this too. Or maybe I'm just a psycho. I do this in the sales process. Like, when I'm being pitched to, like, I will say something like, they better catch this, like, on purpose. Like, I'll say it. And they don't. They just keep on their discovery path. Like, that was a layup that was just there for you. And so, like, reps stop even, like, looking specific and just listen, what is the treasure that you're hearing from them so you can dig. So I love that framework. And it is. It's simple. It's simple. I think also notice what he said. There's a difference between discovery and qualification.

Notice.

He didn't ask me about my budget, authority, need, or timeline in that framework. Like, you can't combine those things. Those are very different things. And I think oftentimes I actually love your opinion on it. My, like, do you need to know about budget or need timeline? Yeah, you do need to know those things, but I don't like to ask those first. I like to start with what you're talking about. Because if you're asking questions that only, like, benefit the seller, I think the Buyer starts to shut down a little bit. So then when you get to the provocative question, after you've asked me my team size and what stack I'm using and all this, and I'm like, whatever.

Like, Bant has a very crippling assumption associated with it that you know what your. Your challenges are.

Right.

Most people don't know what their challenges are. So how are they going to have a budget for something they don't know about? What is their timeline to fix something they didn't know was an issue? Like, Like. I think a rep's job is to create demand. I should be able to, in two meetings, get you so hyped up about what we're doing that you go create budget, authority, need and timing. Right. You don't like that. That's thinking that you're walking to deals that have that and that's the only deals you're going to sell, I think that's a big mistake.

I agree. And actually it's a good segue then. Sorry, say again?

That's called order taker.

Absolutely. If that's all you can sell to is someone who already has budget, already has authority, already has a need, already has the timeline. All right, here's the credit card form. What else do we need here? So I'm with you there. And that's also what's fun again, for someone like yourself that's come up in this game. Like, now outreach is big and now there's a brand and now you have this marketing machine and now you have all that. Early on, you didn't. You had to earn that, right? You had to earn the respect, you had to earn the ticket, you had to earn people actually buying for. And that to me also is becoming a lost art in a way of like, okay, how do you create what you just said? Okay, you did discovery. How into meetings then do you create that demand? Because so many companies and reps that are listening, like, oh, they weren't interested. That's your job.

That is your job.

That is literally why we have salespeople, is to create that interest and want and demand. So let's take this next step. Say we did great discovery. How then do you actually create that demand, that desire with the people you're talking to?

So there's two ways to create demand. One is aspirational selling, which means they want to go up to something that they aren't currently at. And the other one is pain selling, meaning they want to go from somewhere they are up to a different level. Right. And so those are the two ways to create dam, it's a delta. There's a delta between the way they currently operate and the way that they want to be operating. And that can be a negative or a positive delta. Now brain science tells you that people are like six or seven times more likely to run away from something negative as they are to run towards something positive. So you know, if I tell you you're about to lose $10,000 if you don't replace your windows, it's way better than saying you're going to gain $50,000 in energy efficiency over the next six years. People don't care as much, right? And so the, so I like to create enough pain and MIS performance and the consequences of that that causes people to run away from it. And then that creates the gap. And the gap then is that visualize the future part of this is what we can get you to. This is where you're currently at. And so like let's run away from that because that won't continue, right? You won't get fired. You'll have to change something anyway. You lose span of control. Whatever it is, there's a consequence that we need to run away from in order to do it. So that's what, that's what I like to do is we have a thing called a hypothesis statement that we use in our sales cycle. And the hypothesis statement is constructed as despite A, we can't do X, which means we don't get Y as measured by Z. A is an investment that you have right now. Despite this investment we've already made in this, we still can't do X. You know, we still can't convert our inbound leads, which means that we don't get why. That's the above the line, high executive thing, which means we don't hit our growth plans, which means we're going to miss our IPO next year or whatever, as measured by zine. You need a couple metrics that prove that they aren't doing that. And when you construct that statement, I can't tell you how many calls I'm on where somebody's like, did we send you that statement? No, that's what we came up with. You guys know our business better than you do than we do. Like nobody in our company would have come up with that succinct a way to understand the challenge. I hate that. Like, let's move forward. Like let's. I need to run away from that statement. Right? And so that's what, that's, that's like the practical way that we do it and it's gold.

Right. And we appreciate this internally as well. And even some of the people I've worked with, you know, over at Outreach in the past too, it's like in order to sell someone something new, you have to unsell them on what they have.

Right.

If, again, if it were just as easy as it's going to be better with us, I wouldn't need salespeople. If that's all it took was to say, hey, it's going to be better. We're going to 2x this or 3x this. We wouldn't need salespeople. We could just run a webinar all day long and that's all it would take. And so unselling them on what they're doing, and I love that despite. Right, okay, yeah, you do have something or yeah, you did buy or you do work with a competitor. And despite that, you just told me, you still can't blame. So why, why are we even talking about that anymore? Right. Like, you still can't do what you wanted to do with that investment, which I think is a really strong, strong point. And it helps a company rally around, which I think is kind of the next point we'll talk about here is which is champion selling? Because what is it now? 11 Some people on average are involved in a B2B sales decision. Like, it's insane. So, like, how do you then help that champion through the process? Both like, helping the champion, but also how do you help your reps enable that champion? Because very rarely are you going to get the decision maker because there isn't one anymore. There isn't a it. That's also what's changed a lot in sales. There's not a anymore. Like, the CEO could be like, yeah, I want to do this. And you got seven people that are saying, no.

Yeah.

And he's like, oh, all right, never mind. So how do you then help your champion or I guess navigating that sales process to keep these things top of mind throughout all this?

So my argument on this topic is that reps actually already know what to do. They're doing it with the wrong person. They are treating a coach like a champion. They are enabling a coach who isn't in the meeting with the champions. They're enabling a coach that tells them everything but can't get the right people to the deal for the security meeting to get through infosec. You're talking to a person that, like, likes you and gives you great feedback. But what they can't do is they can't go talk to procurement and get the deal pushed through even because they think that you have another tool that does this. Like the my. I think that reps know what to do. I think that they're doing the right things. I think that they have misclassified a coach as a champion. And so all of that labor is for nothing. When you got a champion, that's somebody that can exercise power, can influence the decision and can advocate for you when you're not in the room. When you got those three things with somebody, you all listen, you show them the hypothesis statement, you make the, you do your normal sales thing, you build the rapport that champion can get stuff done for you. It doesn't mean you're always going to win the deal. Right? But it does mean that they can go do stuff for you. I think that most reps spend too much time on coaches because coaches are easy. They're always positive. They tickle the happy ears and they don't do the hard work of saying, you know what, this person is just a coach. They're not somebody that can actually get something done.

How do you help your reps identify the difference? Right? So like, okay, whoa, whoa, whoa, you have a coach, you don't have a champion. How do you identify and then how do you try to get a champion?

So the number one marker for us for a champion is the ability to get cross departmental people into meetings to get stuff done. And so if I go to you, Katie, and I'm like, listen, we need to do this and this and this, can you get an enablement and a rev ops person on the phone with us next week and you go do that, I know you're probably a champion. If you're like, well, why don't we have another meeting? And you know, I know you want to talk to Bob, but Judy's actually and Judy's way below Bob, probably better. That's when I start to know that you're not a champion. And then the second reason I know is the advocation when you're not there part is are you willing to get with me to review my materials before big meetings? Love that. And if you're willing to do that and then are you willing to let me coach you on how to get this done because you want it done so much. And so like that's the, those are the kind of the two or three things that we use here to really look at a champion. Like title can be confusing. To your point earlier, just because you have the CEO doesn't Mean, they're going to make the decision. And so we just like to think about it as, like, can they get the people. Can they get people organized and moving? And then are they willing to help collaborate with us on the strategy to best do that? Because they know those people better than we do.

I think that's key. And we do as reps and as managers and as leaders, helping your reps listen for these things, because they do. They get coaches. The happy ears are like, oh, yeah, sure, sure, like, all right, yes, I got them. No, you don't. It probably isn't that way.

Right.

And we're just trying to listen with happy, happy ears. So let's bring this home then. Right. So we've done proper discovery. We have done a great job of calling it the unselling process through the demo, getting people excited. We're enabling our champion. We've identified who it is. Now we're getting towards the end around, call it negotiation, the close. Right. So what are some things you help to finish it? Because so many deals, they get to that 80% mark and it's that last 20% that it just fizzles out and the time kills the deals or something goes wrong there. How do you help finish the sales process as a closer and your team?

Well, I'm not going to spend long on the generic answer, which everybody knows is you first of all got to ask for the business. Right. And you know, so many calls where the rep never asks the hard question is, are you willing to buy? Right, right. And so that. That I'm not going to spend a lot of time on that if you don't get that. And you need that explained. You're. You need a little bit more coaching. Right? So that's the first thing. Here's the other thing that I think is really important when it comes to negotiations specifically is I think most people go into negotiations with zero plan. Their job is to just keep as much as I can, and that's a crappy plan. So what we teach at Outreach is you have. Where do you want to land? Like, ideally, like, go to finance and get it figured out where you think this is a great deal. Your manager, what's the top end of that and what's the low end of that? Like, what's the least that you'll do that you'll be able to succeed and go in with those three numbers and then look at what you're doing and be like, okay, if price is high, then maybe time or, you know, the number of years on a contract can be low. Right, but price is low and number of years is low. Maybe then referrals and case study and stuff is high. But what you're not going to do is you're not going to give them everything that is important to you on low and everything that's important to them on high. It needs to be a trade off. Right. And I think that what most reps do is they don't, they don't do give gets. Like, Katie, listen, willing to do an extra 10%, but I can't go to finance and get that approved without you giving me something back. This is what I would think would be valuable, an extra year on the contract. Can we do that? No. Well, then I don't know how I'm going to give you 10%. How would you solve that? Right. Oh, I just did something there. Right. But, but that's, that's, that's what, that's what gets lost in the negotiation stuff is people don't have a plan. They don't know what is the floor, they don't know what is the ceiling. They don't know what that would be a good outcome when you go in with those things and then you start to look at all right, what's the highest price I could get the lowest price, the price I want. What's the number of years most I could get whatever. What's the amount of pro serve? The most I would want to get for pro serve fees and the lowest. And once you map that kind of stuff out, then you can kind of see, all right, they're asking here, oh, I'm low here. I can ask for something else. And then that starts to even it out and makes it a real negotiation, not just you giving.

I love it. I want to call out something you did. There was two things you actually brought up. One, the magic word that I hope you all caught was trade. Trade. Right. It's not. If all you're doing is giving, that actually is not a negotiation. You're just giving things away versus that give get. What are you trading? They want lower price. Okay. That's what they want. What's something you want that's a trade. Right now you're sitting on the same side of the table. A little bit of like, okay, you have this that I want, I have this that you want and let's find that. But then talk to me about that how? Question you just kind of threw out there subtly, which was beautiful. Right? I can't go to them, you know, to finance. Answer this 10% discount if we can't have X. How would we solve this? That was fucking glorious.

I call that sales judo. All right, so judo is the martial arts practice that uses someone's own energy against them, right? So the idea is you can do the same thing with an objection, is you take the energy of that objection and you transfer it back to the person for the answer. So if somebody says, hey, Mark, you know, I don't think that we can do because of price, Katie. Like, I'm sure there's a lot of negotiations that you're in where you can't go down in price. The way somebody. How do you handle that? And you just throw their question back to them. And I'm telling you, like, nine times out of 10, people answer their own question, and you don't even overcome the objection. They overcome it themselves. Or at the end, you're just like, they offer a good solution and you just say, well, why don't we do that? And then it's their idea, and they're much more willing to do it. But like, sales judo is like a very subtle and awesome thing that people forget. Like, you don't have to give the answer every time. They can give an answer to their own question, and they will if you give them a chance.

Oh, God, that was just beautiful, right? And again, he's so good at this. It just happens naturally, right? He's like, well, how could I do that? And this is the level of competence that leads to confidence when you know what you're doing, when you know what you're doing, you're confident in that moment, and it just works and it just happens. And so that was. I'm so glad that came up, because that was perfect. So, all right, now we're already at 40min. It says goes way too fast every single time. So let's bring this home here, right? Because the name of this podcast is Live Better Sell Better. Right? Because I also have this weird idea that if we took better care of ourselves, if we had more energy, more enthusiasm, more joy, more happiness, the sales also improve. What would your live better advice be for people listening?

This is a. I think a big one. If you're in leadership, you have to make a conscious decision to enjoy people. It is so easy to get frustrated with people, to lose your patience. To think, I've had this same conversation with three different people three different ways. Or why is this person always complaining? And they just did a. You know, they just made $700,000 last year. Why are they complaining today? Right? And I have just taken A conscious decision in my life, a step forward and to say, I just enjoy people. I appreciate that they have priorities that I don't understand. I appreciate that they have things that they're trying to get done that don't align to mine. And I'm going to enjoy the process of us working those things out and having those conversations. And you know, every time I have a chance to interact with somebody, I'm going to leave hopefully with them feeling better and more positive and me feeling better and more positive and us being a little bit closer, knit together. And I think that that's if you want to live better, like just enjoy people. Otherwise get out of sales. You know what I mean? You can go be a developer and you only ever have to talk to your boss and your keyboard. Right? But if you want to be in sales, you better enjoy people because sales.

Is people, especially leadership.

Right.

If you can't enjoy your people and bring positive intention, right. Like that's a big one for me is like always believing positive intent. Even if they did something wrong, even if they're frustrated, even if they're angry, it's like assuming positive intent first. Because if you're always assuming the worst in people, which is where a lot of sales leaders go is it's the assuming of the worst. God, you get miserable and miserable fast and you can't lead people that way. So, my man, this was everything I was hoping it would be. Where can people get more of you? Where can they follow you? Where can they go find you? Where can they get more of your content? How do they get more mark in their lives?

I don't know if you want that, but I post on LinkedIn every single day. We were talking about it earlier. Katie. I usually do a poll that summarizes or gets people's temperature on a content text based post that I do and so respond to the poll. I get a lot of action on that. I don't get nearly as much on the good stuff of the content. So go check that out. LinkedIn is a great place to, to find what I'm doing.

Yeah. And go to his profile and click on posts and go read them. Right. So don't just wait for like what you see in your feed. Follow so that you can actually see the old post. So, my man, this was great. Thank you so much for your time, energy, attention and insights. And I'm sure we'll be chatting a lot moving forward. Anyway, so appreciate you, dude.

Appreciate you, man. Ra.