What It Takes to Be an Athlete in Sales with JR Butler

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Thanks for having me, kd. I'm pumped to be here with you, bud.

So this will be good. Actually, I'm going to start with just a high, high level. What were your sports? I think we talked about this briefly, but like, what sports did you play?

So I played football, hockey and baseball in high school. And then I played, I played Division 1 hockey.

I thought it was hockey. I was like, I think it was hockey, but I just want to make sure. So, so let's start off just at a, at a high level, right? Because obviously this is what you do. Why do you believe athletes can make great salespeople?

So I think, you know, there's obviously a lot of meat on that bone. But like when I, when I kind of boiled it down when I was starting the business and thinking about, like, what are the, what are the key areas that we want to focus on educating these athletes on this. Because, because you, you're, you know, like as an athlete when you, when you retire, you're really not. You don't have that self awareness of who you are as a person yet, right? Like, you're still like, you know, I'm a good example when, if you asked me who I was When I was 24, I was a hockey player, like, that's who I was. Like, that was my entire identity. So what we like to do is, is show them that, hey, that's a, that's a good identity to have. You should still consider yourself an athlete. But here are the, the kind of five you to focus on in terms of bringing these things on to this new career and why you're going to be successful in it. So when we talk about it, we think about resiliency, competitiveness, coachability, work ethic, and we call it a growth mindset. So like, those five areas, in my opinion are the most kind of translatable into a job or a career in sales.

So I want to, I want to break some of these down here. And the first one I'm going to call out is competitive, right? Because I actually don't believe most salespeople are competitive. Everyone says salespeople are competitive, but having now worked with thousands of them, salespeople like to win. Most salespeople are not competitive. And there's a big difference. Break that down for me. The difference between liking to Win and being competitive.

I actually, I think it's more about hating to lose than loving to win. So. So that's the one piece with. With competitiveness that we see translate. I think the other thing, because we. We mostly, Katie, we focus on SDRs and BDRs. That's like our superpower and what I find in that role. And I remember this from when I did it, and I'm sure you do, too. Like, the. There's not a lot of immediate payoff as a. As an sdr, Right. Like, you're doing a lot of activity without getting a lot of return. So a lot of what you're trying to do, to measure, like, where are you compared to your peers are through metrics, activity metrics, and things like that. So what when we say, you know, competitive, we're like, listen, like, you know, like, I. I was roommates in college with a. Another defenseman. I was a defenseman. We were always one of my best friends. But, like, when practice started, like, if he had the puck in the corner and I had a chance to put my shoulder into his chin, I was doing it because I wanted to play on Saturday night over him. So. But, like, as soon as we got in the locker room, like, we're boys again, right? Like, we're talking about the game. We're, like, giving each other tips and stuff. So, like, that ability to compete with somebody but still be their peer and their colleague, like, that's really, really important as a. As an SDR and a large organization where, like, there's a. There's a daily metric scoreboard, you want to be at the top of that list. That's where we see the competitiveness being really important in the first, like, nine to 12 months to their career, because they're not going to be getting commission checks. They're not going to be, you know, closing these big deals. So they've got to be motivated through that daily competition with their peers.

Yeah, because. And you got at it there, I think, a little bit on the way I define the difference. Right. Because wanting to win very rarely changes behavior. That's the first. Not wanting to lose tends to change behavior a little bit more, where you're like, all right, I lost. I'm going to change something. But competitiveness, what people tend to forget, competitiveness is about beating somebody else. That's the difference. The competitive salespeople almost always are on the top of the board because they're not doing it to win. They're not doing it not to lose. They are doing it to beat the other people. And that's the difference, right? I am hyper competitive. I want to beat you. It has nothing to do with winning. I'm going to win. It's already in my mind that I'm going to win. I want to beat you. And this is what's the double edged sword. If you're truly competitive, it starts to fall into that bucket. You were mentioning a little bit where you undercut people or you don't establish a true peer relationship. And like, if you think about it, would you even really want a team of 50 hyper competitive individuals?

Right, right.

I don't know. I don't know. So that's always one where it's like, I wish salespeople were actually more competitive. They're not. They like to win and that doesn't change behavior nearly as much. And so let's keep going down this list. Right? Let's talk coachability. Right. I've kind of, my last few posts have been really around this. I've been feeling a certain type of way of like just people being resistant to coaching or whatever else. And same idea. If salespeople approached practice in high school or college or approached coachability in high school or college the same way they do in their careers and they would be cut from the team overnight, they would never push back to the coach on practice. Coach says run laps, you're running laps. Coach says jump. Touch the bar, you're touching the bar. There was none of this like pushback, this, oh, I want to do it differently. So talk to me a little bit about coachability. Like where, why does that seem to shift? Whereas an athlete, you're told to do something, you go do it. And then it's like, well, maybe I'm not going to do that. Maybe I'm going to do it a different way. Like what do you see out there? Why, why that dichotomy, you think?

I think it's, you know, it's funny like when, when I think of the coachability that we see in our candidates, it's kind of like, you know, they come from this, this world for like 20, 25 years where they've gotten to the elite level of sports because they listen to people, right? They, they, when they got constructive criticism or feedback, they didn't take it personally because they were like, okay, like this is a, this is something that I can get better at. And if I listen to this person who's an expert then, and, and I, and I enact their feedback, then I'm going to see an outcome where it's positive. And I'm not going to take it personally. Like, they're attacking me. And I think what happens with salespeople is they have some success. They get coaching and they're like, well, I've already had success, so I'm. I think I'm right. Whereas, like, we're getting very raw, like, play doh. Like talent. And it's like, hey, here's what it's going to take to be really good. And they're listening and they're. And they're. And they're being coachable. So, like, I just think, like, athletes have this weird combination of confidence and humility at the same time where it's like, they are very confident, they believe in themselves, but they've also gotten to the point where they've just worked on this muscle of, like, taking feedback, not taking it personally. Yes coach, no coach. And then going and doing it and then being able to see the outcome. So. And when we see that coachability and we actually do a personality assessment to see how coachable somebody is, and that's like a. That's, I think, for me, if you ask me, which five were the most important for this early stage sales rep, that is the most important because they don't know anything, right? Like, they come in, they don't know anything. So if they aren't coachable, they are not going to be successful, full stop. So that's a huge piece for us is the ability to take constructive criticism, not take it personally, not let it affect their confidence level, but use that feedback to get better. Like, I grew up in a house, Katie. My. My father's a high school hockey coach for 35 years. He's in the Massachusetts Hockey hall of Fame. So I have been like, I laugh all the time. People give me feedback and they're like, sorry, don't take this personally, Junior. And I'm like, I've been getting coaching since I was two years old, right? Like, my dad is. If I had. I wasn't like the kind of kid got in the car and my dad was like, oh, don't worry about it. You know, you had a tough game, Big, no big deal. It was like, hey, here's. Here's why you sucked, Junior. Here's all the things you did wrong. And I was like, okay, dad, like, I'm going to work on that stuff, right? So, like, I think we see that in our athletes all the time. That ability to take constructive criticism, not put that guard up that you're talking about and say, okay, Like, I. I have Enough humility that I'm going to use that feedback to get better. And I think that is like the number one indicator of the people that are going to be successful after we get them jobs is how coachable they were in our training. Right? Because we give them so much feedback and so much training before they're getting in front of companies that we can tell pretty quickly how good a kid's going to be in the long term just through that, that characteristic alone.

No, it's funny you mention that there because I got, you know, having stepped out of, you know, direct leadership over the last six months has given me a lot of time to like, just look back and review and really like look at like what worked and what didn't work. And one of the things that like came up in that I was like, I think I knew within 90 days, I think almost always I knew within 90 days how someone was going to perform. I could only come up with like a couple examples in the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of reps that I have led where I'm like, that person surprised me. Like they were, they were a late bloomer. It took them longer. Right? And I'm not talking about performance. I've seen people take more than 90 days to start performing. But the character traits you're talking about are they bought into practice? How do they take feedback? Do they put in the efforts and activity that almost always within 90 days I'm like, I already know how this person's going to do. I already know how this person's going to do now. But one thing that you just started to touch on a little bit is training, right? Because I also think people for like especially athletes and this is, we'll get into interview questions in a little bit here, but like the difference between being coachable but then also practicing, right. It's one thing to receive the feedback being coachable. But like where did practice go? Like I used to add, I'll use it for you, right? Because how long is a hockey game? How long is a hockey game?

It's like, well, it's usually 3:15 to 20 minute period. So like any 45 to 60 minutes long, right?

Okay, so you got a six. It's called 60 minute game. How many hours per week did you practice for that 60 minute game?

Oh, like, like eight hours easy.

That's easy hours, eight, like throw, counting the gym, not counting throwing gym, throwing film, throw in all the things that you're doing. Right? You're talking about E Easy, easy. 12 to 15 hours per week for that 60 minute per hour.

Yeah, 12, 15 to 1 is a good, like, it's a good ratio. 15 to 1, easy. Yeah.

And you did that for years and you did it in the off season when you didn't even have a game. You were still practicing. Right? Like, and you practice the fundamentals, stick handling, puck handling, speed drills, like all that. Then we get into sales. Where does it go, Junior? Where does that 15 hour a week mindset go? Where does that game film go? Where does the fundamentals go? So talk to me about progress practice a little bit here.

Yeah, so, so we like, we actually have a, a checklist that, that our athletes have to go through and like all the stuff we give them on training, they have to, they have to check the box that they practiced their pitches, their interview questions, their, their cold calling with at least 10 people before they get into an interview. So we tell them like, you know, call your mom, call your dad, call your brothers and sisters, your friends and make sure that you are practicing in order to get better. We have a whole session about why training and practicing for becoming. We call it being a sales pro. Right? Like, you know, my father used to have this saying when I was little. There's a lot of people that play hockey, but there's not a lot of hockey players. So we have a course that's like, this is how you become a lot of people sell software. There's not a lot of sales professionals. So part of being a sales professional is having that habit of practice constantly getting into a new role and getting on your manager's calendar, you know, once a week, twice a week, to do demos, to do cold call role plays. Like, so we try to give them that habit during the, you know, three to four weeks that we have them. So when they do get into the role and some of that, Katie, I think you would agree with me, is on the organization too. Like, that's got to be part of the culture. But, but the candidate can also bring that culture to the company and say, hey, this is how I want to operate. So we try to get that habit going in this new career because we, we're lucky we get them when they've already been doing it right away. So if we can immediately say, hey, this thing that you've already been doing, just keep doing it, right? So that's kind of how we're positioning that. That practice piece of our training is like, make it a habit, keep it a habit and do it forever. You know what I mean?

Yeah. That was one of my biggest call, like Interview and onboarding points when I would hire an athlete is if they told me they were a collegiate athlete. A collegiate athlete, not a high school athlete. Because if you were only a high school athlete, it's still been four to five years since you were actually in that realm. That does not carry over, right? So when people love to tell me stories about their high school glory days, I'm like, I don't, I don't care. That was, I was five years ago. Like, I'm proud of you. Doesn't matter now, right? But when I'm talking to someone who played collegiate sports, right? They're fresh out of it. They were doing it. That's where the conversation shifts and I'm like, are you willing to bring me that same mindset? Are you willing to hit the ball off the tee for an hour every single day? Are you willing to do stick handling drills every single day? Are you willing to put in. That's the same things that got you there. Will you give me that? Because if you'll give me that, you will succeed. Period. Period. But there was never a day in your, like, you know, collegiate career that you woke up and you're like, you know what, I'm just not gonna go to practice today.

Right?

There was never a day in your collegiate career where the coach said, hey, you know, the after work session is X amount of sprints. And you said no, or you faked it, right? Like, it's like, so if you'll give me that, you will succeed. But you have to, you have to be willing to give me that to do the repetition and the fundamentals. That's the other call out I always love to give. Here is like, in hockey, you didn't practice the game. You practiced all the skills necessary to play the game, but you didn't show up to practice and just do the game every single practice and then go is the fundamentals. So what do you think some of the sales fundamentals? What's the puck handling drill? What's the stick handling drill? What are the speed drills? What are some of the fundamental practice things that you either have your salespeople or your candidates do or you would recommend they start to work into their routine?

Yeah, so there's a few things I think number one is building your operating rhythm, like having your, your weekly, monthly, quarterly cadence that you're going to be doing and you're going to stick to in good times, you're going to stick to in bad times. Things like, you know, PG Mondays. Like, you know, I, as a, as a Even as a chief revenue officer, Mondays for me were PG Mondays. And that was something that I started when I was, you know, 20, 23, 24 years old. So number one is building those habits, right?

What's PG, PG Mondays?

Pipeline growth. Like there we go.

Okay.

Yeah, growing, growing your, your pipeline. That's a, that's a key one is just like creating because, because as an athlete we had it right. We went to the gym Monday through Friday, we, we ran sprints on Wednesdays and, and Saturdays we lifted on these days we shot pucks on. So like we talk about bringing that same type of discipline to this industry into this career. That's number one. I think probably the most important skill that all our candidates kind of walk away with. The other thing that's big for me, and it's always been big for me is research. Like being over prepared for every conversation, right? Like really understanding the background or the organization, depending on, you know, a combination of this person's background and this organization's background. Every time I'm writing an email, writing a LinkedIn message, making a cold call. So that, that account research is something that's our first course that we give them in the job foundational skills stuff. I personally am like a huge believer in prospecting, like cold outreach emails and cold calls. So like those are skills that we really hammer. Like you talked about game, game verse, fundamentals. Those are fundamentals you need to be able to prospect forever. It's the most important skill you could have as a salesperson. So we try to hammer that home with these folks. And then the other, the other pieces we work on are like building rapport and doing discovery. Right? Like, and qualificate. And when I say discovery, I'm, I'm really talking about qualification. Like, you know, we, we try to, we, we have a course called Happy Years and like, we don't. We really want people to get to know faster than they get to. Yes. So we try to teach them that skill. That's a skill, like a fundamental skill that if you get really good at as a salesperson, you're not going to waste a lot of time in your career. And I've seen so many salespeople that had to learn the hard way of like, you know, I had a couple reps that had like the same deal in the pipeline for like six quarters in a row. And I'm like, when are you going to get this thing up, man? Like, but instead of having them learn it that way, we try to teach it early. Like, hey, your job as A salesperson is actually to get to know more than it is to get to. Yes. So like those are kind of like some of the key foundational skills that we really preach on early on in our boot camps.

I like it. So I got two more, call it like athlete questions and we'll shift to some life questions here in a second. So if we think about as two last things are going to be interviews and leading. I'm going to start with leading. Speak to the leaders out there. How should you lead a former athlete on your team? So you hire one. Do you make any recommendations on like how you should actually engage with that individual if you know they had an athletic background?

Yeah, I think like, you know, from, from my perspective, you know, every, everybody is so different as when you're a leader, you can't really manage everybody the same. Right. Like, you know, you got sales reps whose motivation is they want to become sales leaders themselves. Right. So you've got to manage them in a certain way. You've got folks that are, you know, some of the best sales reps I've ever, that have ever worked for me were 100% coin operated individuals that just wanted to W2 as much money as possible. So every time we did a deal review, we'd start with the commission on the deal and then we'd work backwards from there and talk about how they were going to get to it. I think with, with athletes, they have a little bit unique, unique motivators and needs that they, that they really want to want to feel as being part of an organization. Like I think, you know, fraternity is important for them. Like they want to feel like they're part of a team. They want to feel like they're being challenged. Like they want to feel like they're getting better. They want it, they want feedback. They want a scoreboard. They've had a scoreboard their entire life. So they want that leader to tell them, hey. And sometimes as, especially nowadays it's hard as a leader because you got to kind of sometimes manage things with gloves on. But I think with athletes you can kind of take those gloves off a little bit more and really like dig in with them and give them that feedback because that's what they thrive off of and that's what they've always done. And I think the other thing with, with athletes is like experiential learning, like actually like just kind of throwing them in the fire is, is, is typically a really good thing that, that they feed off of. So I think like just paying attention to Making them feel like this is really a team atmosphere, giving them that, that direct feedback and assertion and then, and then, and then constantly testing them and showing them how they did on the test, if you know what I mean. Right. Like I think those are things where when leaders do that with our candidates, they have a ton of success.

And I was with all of them until that very last point. So I do want to call it out because I've actually noticed the difference is that throwing them in the game actually tended to make more of the athletes freeze because they were so used to having process, practice and direction.

Right.

So call that one, that's one. Similarly. Right. It's like, yes, like you're a hockey player, I can throw you into a game right now and you can fill it out. But then we're dismissing the 20 years of practice you put to get to that point. And when they step into sales, they're a rookie again. Right. They're that, they're that fresh bow legged freshman. Right. That knows nothing about like true, like competitive, like you know, sporting events. So I actually noticed a difference. If I threw them in with less practice, they tended to freeze a little bit more because they didn't feel prepared totally for the situation. So go ahead.

Yeah, I think like what I mean by that is like, okay, so I'm working with a kid and he's having trouble, you know, he's having trouble closing those cold calls. Right. Like he's having trouble getting the meeting, selling the meeting. Right. So when I say experiential learning, what I mean is we're going to practice it, but then I'm going to be right next to you. Like, like I would as a coach, right. Like okay, you need to work on your back end. We're going to keep practicing it and I'm going to just be there with you to say, hey, this is what we talked about and this is what you just did. So it's like, it's kind of like like one thing that an athlete doesn't Enjoy is like 10 months of practice and no games. Right? So getting the practice but then saying, okay, let's give it a try, let's do it, let's do the game. And then, okay, let's, let's talk about the game. So like not just doing the role plays but actually like practicing and then being there to coach them in a game and then after giving them the feedback because they, they want to go into the game after practice. So you got to give them that access to be able to try things in the in the game situation, that's where they're going to get the best because that's just how they are as people. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Okay, thank you for the clarification because, like, I don't know, man. Like, just throwing them into a game doesn't work for any. Imagine throwing me into a hockey game right now, right? Like that would go poorly probably for everybody. I probably hurt somebody else too, including myself. So, like, I get it. Okay, last question that I want to talk about. The live, better portion of this is just on the interview process, right? So obviously you're screening these candidates. You're really helping them prepare. But like, not everyone works with you. So if you're a leader interviewing athletes, are there some questions, Right. You called out the key things to look for competitive, resilient, coachable, work ethic and growth mindset. Are there some questions that leaders could ask to help find those things out? Right, because I think a lot of people here, they're an athlete, they're like, oh, they must be competitive and they like to win and they're going to do all that. What are some of those screening questions a leader could ask to suss some of these things out?

So I think that the questions are the same you would ask, but it's what you're listening for that changes. So like, you know, if, you know, we. When I was at my, my, my last company, we hired like 250BDRs over six years. And I would always ask the same question. Why do you think you're going to be good at this job? Like, what makes you think you're going to be a good salesperson? And I think you want to ask an athlete that, but you want them, what you want them to be able to do is okay. One of the reasons I think I'm going to be a good salesperson is because I'm super resilient. Here's some examples of where I've shown resiliency. I got caught my sophomore year, spent the summer in the gym, and was a start of my junior year. That's one piece is being able to communicate how they were resilient. Not just that they are, but how were they resilient. Give me some examples from your life where you showed you were competitive, resilient, coachable. And then most importantly, what I would be looking for as a sales leader is they should be able to communicate why that matters in sales. Okay. Oh, you're resilient. You got cut. That's great. I can tell that you definitely have some resiliency. But now tell me why that matters in sales. Well, I know that the connection rate for cold calling is 7%. I know the open rate is this, and I know the conversion rates on selling are these. And I know that I'm going to be told no more than yes, and I'm ready for that. That's like a. A plus answer in an interview versus, you know, why do you think you're going to be good at sales? Well, I'm resilient and I'm competitive and I'm coachable. It's like, okay, thanks. Give me an example and then, and then be able to communicate intelligently to me why that matters as a salesperson. That's, that's like. I think the biggest thing that the, the hiring managers that we work with should be looking for in our athletes because if they can't tell their own story and, and tie it to sales, that means they're not paying attention. They. They don't understand what the role is and they can't really explain intelligently why they're going to be a good fit. So that's like, to me, that's the way you can find out if this, this person understands how this stuff is going to translate. And by the way, if they can explain it, kd, they're probably gonna be able to do it when they get into the seat. Yeah.

No, I love that that's the example, but also the context and application. I really like that because it's like, all right, give me examples of when you've done it. Love it. I love the context, though. Okay, how does that apply to sales? I think that's a really good way to dig into it. So now let's flip this as we start to end this, right, because the name of the podcast is Live Better Sell Better. Right. You know, I have this weird idea that if we took better care of ourselves, if we had more joy, energy, fulfillment in life, the sales also get better. You have a very interesting backstory and example of this concept of live better. So can you talk about what it is, but then also the impact it's had on your professional and personal life.

So in 35 days, I'm celebrating 10 years of sobriety. So I got sober when I was 27, like four years into my, like six years into my career, but four years as an account executive, and it just, it, it changed. It changed my life. So, so really quick, the. Basically the background behind it is when I was working, my younger brother signed his NHL, first NHL contract, and I Was. I mean, you know, generally I'm a. I'm an Irish kid from Boston. I. I was a big time drinker and partier, and I was lucky enough to sell. You know, in 2008, I came out of school and I was selling virtualization when people were still in the physical. The physical world. So we were doing a lot of deals. We were, you know, selling VMware, doing, you know, making a lot of money. And. And it was kind of like I was at a reseller. So it was like, you know, whoever got into the customer first, they were going to do the deal because every company was buying VMware. It's kind of like the cloud now. Right. And what was happening was I was not taking care of myself. I wasn't sleeping well, I wasn't eating well, I was overweight, I was hungover or drunk, probably four or five days a week. I was still doing well, but I wasn't being a professional. And then I went to see my brother because part of the collective bargaining agreement in the NHL is they fly the whole family up to your first game.

That's cool. I didn't know that.

Yeah. And my little brother's a lot younger than me. And I just saw this kid, you know, and he's buttoned up, he's in a suit, he took a nap. Like, he knew every kid on the other team. He knew what their power play was. Like, he was dialed. And I had this, like, epiphany of, like, you know, I'm sitting here pissed off that I'm not playing hockey anymore because I was like, I was sour about it and bitter, and I was drinking, drinking away my feelings. And I realized right then and there, like, just because I'm not a professional hockey player doesn't mean I'm not a professional. And I am going to start approaching my career as a salesperson to be a sales professional like my brother does as a pro hockey player. I'm going to take care of myself. I'm going to dress well, I'm going to shave, you know, on game days, I'm going to. I'm going to understand the competition. I'm going to know the playbook back and forth, forth. I'm going to understand exactly what I need to do. I'm going to wake up, I'm going to have a plan. I'm going to execute practice and continue to track where I'm weak, where I'm strong, and make sure that my weaknesses become my strengths. Like all the things that professional athletes do to have long Careers. My brother ended up playing 12 years of professional hockey, played in the Olympics, played in the NHL. Right? And because of that, because of. And that was 100% because, yes, he had some natural talent like I do as a salesperson, but he wouldn't be where he was if he didn't practice those daily habits. So I took that same approach to sales. And we tell our candidates the same thing, like, you know, better mind, better body, better seller, full stop. Right? So those, those daily habits, the meditation, the exercise, the nutrition, the sleep, all that stuff has changed the way that I operate kd. I was lucky enough to become a Chief Revenue officer as a 34 year old, was part of a $2 billion exit as a VP of sales. Like that stuff, all of that stuff would not have happened had I not got sober and started taking care of myself, you know, off the ice, if you want to call it that. Right? Like, I was, I was still a good salesperson before that, but it was like, it was another stratosphere when I started really taking this seriously off the ice and taking care of myself and making sure that everything that I'm doing every day is the right thing to do it.

Man 1 Love, just love the story, man. Like, and because we didn't even get to get into that when we got to meet up, just like the full backstory then. And I love the transformation because it is, it's like if, if we change the inner, that's when the outer starts to change, right? And it's amazing. And it's so funny because, like, I've thought even more about this and my last role. I went to HR twice, two different times, and asked them, one, can I make exercise mandatory? And two, can I make meditation mandatory? Can I make them mandatory? Meaning built into the workday. Built into the workday. Not outside of, but built into the workday. Can I make those two things mandatory? And of course, the answer always came back as no.

Or.

And I was like, why not? I can make cold calling mandatory a soul sucking and soul crushing thing. I can make that mandatory. But I can't make exercise mandatory. I can't like. And that always because I was, I was like, tell me your team wouldn't be better if everyone got 30 minutes of exercise in per day. And tell me your team wouldn't get better if everyone got 10 minutes of meditation in per day. And tell me your team wouldn't be better if everybody journaled for five minutes a day. And tell me your team wouldn't be better if they practice gratitude for 90 seconds on every. Like, the science behind it is so proven. And I've always like, if. It's not even an if. When I build a team again, that's going to be part of that, is there will be an hour for the eight hour day dedicated to these things. Because I do believe, and I think a lot of people, it's really hard to have a counterpoint. No, like, what's, what's the counterpoint? Like, wait, your team exercises, meditates, practices, gratitude and journals. No, that's gonna make them worse. Like, there's no, there's no counterpoint there. And so as you look at the transformation that you made, I'm sure people listening go, man, like, I want to do that or I want to go through something similar. Like, how would you recommend someone starts their own personal transformation? Because you listed a lot of things that are like sleep, exercise, nutrition, water, like, all that. Like, how would you recommend someone starts their own transition into something like this?

So, so, I mean, maybe this is like a product of growing up with a, with a coach as a father, but like, I'm just a process guy. Like, I talked about operating rhythm and cadence as a seller. You got to have the same thing in your, in your, like, wellness practice, right? So like I, and I did this as a sales leader too. I, I have a morning routine called Maverick. And, and the way, the reason it's called Maverick is it stands for meditation, affirmations, visualization, exercise, reading. The I stands for inscribing, which is journaling. C is con. I contact two people, I text two people that I haven't talked to within six months. And then the K stands for keep coming back. So do that every day. So my whole thing is like, you've got to build the habit into your operating rhythm as a human being. So I think you gotta. And you can't do it all at once. And you can't do too much because then it becomes too much of a challenge for you and it's not fun. So start small. Pick a habit that you want to change and just do it. Do it for, you know, 30 days. And eventually, you know, as you know, these things become habits. And I think you can build on a practice over time, right? Like, Maverick wasn't born on day one when I got sober. In fact, my first probably year of sobriety was like the only daily habit that I had was don't drink today. But for that, like, wellness practice to transform into that, I think it's pick a, pick the thing that you want to do. The most. And just do it every day. Build it into your operating rhythm and then build on top of that. That's kind of how. That's where I had success with it.

I love it. And I know shout out to the. Keep coming back at the end there. I've had quite a few people in my life go through certain programs, and so I hear it. I hear it. Awesome, dude. Well, dude, this was amazing. I mean, where can people get more of what you're putting out? Where can they learn more about the athletes you're working with? Like, where can they get more Junior Butler greatness in their lives? Because they need it. They need it.

Yeah, they will. They can definitely follow me on LinkedIn, you know, JR Butler at shift Group, and then check out our website, shiftgroup IO, you know, and. And honestly, like, especially on the sobriety front, Katie, I just want to throw it out to your audience if. If anybody wants to talk about that, because I know how hard it is to talk about that. I'm always here. They can reach out directly to me on LinkedIn. And I. And I'm constantly helping and talking to people that are going through the battle with addiction because it's. It's really the hardest thing you can possibly go through in your life. So that's something that. If somebody wants to talk about that they can reach out directly to me. Right. On LinkedIn. And I would love to chat about that with anybody.

That is amazing. And anyone listening, do it. So much of changing habits, so much of changing lifestyle choices is the support. You don't and should not go through it alone. So if Chad is willing to talk with you about it, leverage him for that, because that can be life changing. So, Junior, my man. Thank you so much. This is exactly what I was hoping it would be and then some. I appreciate you, dude. Can't wait till we link up again soon and just keep on kicking it.

All right, thanks, kd. Appreciate you.

Later, man.