Why Range beats Specialization with Dejuan Brown

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Oh, man, thank you for having me, man. This is. This is awesome. I'm excited to talk. And that intro was amazing.

The truth, man, I gotta put it out there and say, hey, like, you know, these are things that I. That I look for. And so it's actually right into it because this is why people enjoy the show toos. We don't do the fluff. We don't do the bastard. Get into it. Like, why is range so important? Like, if you think of how you've gotten to where you are in your career, why is having, like, a range of experiences so valuable?

Yeah, that's a really good question. I think, you know, it speaks, you know, what you said in the intro speaks to it, right? So you have, you know, people in specific positions who don't have the experience or even the insight to understand what it takes to do some of the other role pieces or the pieces that go with other roles. And those are necessary to maximize success in any of the other roles, right? So the fact that I was full cycle means that even as an AE today in the seat that I sit in, I know how to prospect. The fact that I've led means I know how to sort of navigate organizations and bring teams together in service of our customers. Like, I know what it's like to manage the expectations from an IC perspective of my leadership and vice versa. I know what those expectations ought to be from a coaching perspective, et cetera. So reigns. Consider it like actors, right? You know, you don't. The reason that some actors kind of flash in a pan and sort of burn out after three or four rows is because they've been typecast. They don't show range. Right? And the best actors that we know of in these spaces and even the best musicians that we know of, some of some of the things that you'll hear said about them is compliments around their range, their ability to go into places that maybe they weren't expected to go, but they're comfortable there because of their experiences in life.

No, man, I think that's. The typecast, I think is a perfect analogy for where I think it's happened. In the sales industry. You have people that post jobs and it's like, oh, it's an enterprise job. So we want seven to eight years of enterprise experience, or we want. I saw an ad the other day. It Was like seven, eight years of enterprise experience, healthcare, vertical, east coast network. I was like, really like that specific is the only person that could succeed in this. The typecasting, I think is crazy because you can, you can get labeled as SMB or enterprise or mid market and not be given opportunities to do things. And so where I wanted to go with this next, right, is in order to have range and in order to do the different things that you've done, you have to be able to learn very quickly. Right. In order to avoid that typecast. Right. When you go from an SMB to an enterprise, or from an IC to a leadership, you have to learn quickly. So, like, what are the techniques or patterns or things that you've put in place to learn quickly to actually gather that range?

Yeah, that's good too. Because I think what's important here is that I know how I learn best and I maximize it. Right. I'm not the guy who will read 40 books, but I am the guy who will listen to 40 podcasts. I am the guy who will watch 40 videos. I am the guy who will have 40 conversations. And so just knowing who I am and knowing how I learn best and how I learn most quickly, I simply maximize that. And so when you think about having conversations with people who are in the role that I'm going for or aspiring to or just got hired to, I'll have 40 of those conversations over the course of a short period of time. And the level of absorption that I know that I'm able to do actually gives me what I need to sort of ramp up and have the right mindset, framework, thought processes going into those roles. So that would be one. The other is just the things that people. Again, and I say this all the time that people say that they're hiring for is aptitude, attitude and skill. Last aptitude is something that, you know, I believe I have. It's been developed. And just knowing, like, where to apply that aptitude to get the maximum result is something that I've learned over 20 years in this industry and I just capitalize on those things. Right.

I love that there's a little bit of that know thyself. But then what I hope people caught there is, yes, you know thyself, but then you seek out external information, right. Whether that is conversations or audios or books or whatever is to make sure that you are learning. But I'm actually going another layer deeper there. How do you apply it? Because people talk about this all the time. Whether it's, well, I'm not A book reader. I'm a podcast person. I'm not a podcast person, I'm a conversation person. But then they don't actually do anything with what they learn. So how do you implement it? Right? You make a switch, you have the 40 conversations. How do you make sure you actually put it into action?

Yeah, I'm a big proponent of what I call learn, teach, learn. Right. So the first thing is, you know, I need to learn the stuff, right? So if I, if I listen to a podcast today, I'm talking to somebody about it tomorrow, I'm explaining what I heard and I'm trying to teach it back to someone. And so that's the first thing. Like I get poured into from these various channels. But you can't just suck it up, hold it and hoard it, right? Because then it's very difficult to apply because you can't apply it in a real world scenario because you've never even spoken about what you learned to someone and make sure that what you have is clear enough that someone can get it. If you can't teach it, you don't know it. Right. And so for me, learn, teach, learn. And then having, you know, if it's tactical stuff, I try to find exactly where I can implement it immediately and I try to just go do that as quickly as I possibly can. Now, obviously, sales for the culture gives me a great platform to teach back what I've learned and then to hear from others what they learned from my teaching and therefore learn from them and their perspectives on the same topic. And so these sort of, you know, you almost think of them as discipleship cycles, right? You know, I get poured into, I pour into, you pour back into me. And it doesn't matter what level we're doing that on, as long as I'm doing that really consistently. The implementation is something that's a natural outflow of it.

Now I love that because it is, it's something where, especially with like newer reps or anything else, it's like sometimes it's almost like they seek the silver bullet. They just never put it into practice, always asking for feedback, but then they never actually go do it. Right?

Yeah, yeah.

So let's talk your journey a little bit here, right? So like I wasn't exaggerating in the intro, right? Like you've done a lot of these different things and you've gone IC to VP to IC again. Why? Because I also, I feel like you have to have a lot of self awareness to make those types of decisions, right. To not allow yourself to be typecast, which I really love and respect. So like I said, why that transition? Like, what did you learn? Or what was the opportunity to say, you know what, I'm gonna be in IC again and be good at that and be good with that?

Yeah, yeah, Solid question. I mean, I think the initial pull towards leadership, generally speaking, was really my desire to, you know, this was back when I was in sales at Intuit, which was like 2002 to 2014. So to that, at the latter end of that, of that, of that cycle, I started looking for opportunities. I was always like a sort of player coach, right? Like leading from the seat that I sit in and so forth and making, and making impact on individuals and seeing that impact in their lives, right? Changing their lifestyle, changing their families. That, that, that scratched a very big itch for me. But I could never see myself doing that and not still selling. And so the first leadership role that I took, I took it because I had an opportunity to do both, right? I could lead a team. This was at Bloomberg. I could lead a team. And in the midst of that, I was also very active in the sales cycles with that team, getting into the field, going to meetings, having these conversations, strategizing and helping with that. And I didn't have a whole bunch of like, you know, random admin work that was keeping me away from the, from the field. And the work that I really love, coaching, developing, mentoring, motivating and inspiring, right? And so that was awesome. But then, you know, things shifted a little bit organizationally and things. And so some of that was changed. And so when I made my move as an individual contributor to Seismic, my first time, I'm a seismic boomerang. So when I made my move to Seismic the first time I moved, a lot of it was around the complexity of the sale and the necessity of me being sort of a floor general to quarterback large deals in complex scenarios. So I still had this opportunity to bring people together, unite around a story that we wanted to bring to a customer in order to improve their business outcomes. The second piece of that is I had an inside team. So it was two inside people who wanted to go outside. And so that mentorship, that development, and that up close and personal impact, I was still able to see. So IC for me worked really well in that context. Moving into the VP role, which is what I did after my first stint at Seismic, it was much the same thing. There was an entire organization in this case who was looking to learn from me. And so I was able to both execute on some of the strategies that I had in my mind and understood how to do and then also help shepherd really an entire organization at that time around what go to market looks like means, and then see that impact in their lives. So when I transitioned from VP back to seismic, it was with the understanding that an IC role at seismic for me looks very, very different than an IC role elsewhere. And I don't know that I would be in IC anywhere else.

Got it. Okay, so, all right, now we're. Now we're getting the layers back here, right? And so opens up another kind of can of worms here of. So you're an IC but clearly doing way more, right? You're not just slanging deals and then going to the clubs afterwards.

Right, right, right.

A lot more. So, all right, now this turned a whole different direction. So first, how can someone who is an IC now earn the right to do some of that right where they can help? You said it perfectly. You said, lead from the seat I'm in. How can more people lead from the seat they are in? Because I do what I love about your journey, and I say this to people that talk to me about getting into management all the time is like, a lot of people can be leaders, fewer people can be managers. There's a difference between being a leader and a manager. And for a lot of people, being a leader is a much better fit for them than being a manager. So let's talk about, first of all, how to lead from your seat. And then we're going to talk about some balance and time management after that. So how. How do you lead from your seat? How do you have that impact while still doing your job?

Yeah, you know what? I sum that up. I start, right? The foundation for me is not waiting, right? The foundation for me is not waiting, right? If there's a problem and you can think of a solution or come come to the conclusion that this might be a solution, you just need to find out who it is that needs to hear that you need to book time with them, and you need to have that discussion, right? So I think the difference between someone leading from the seat they're in and someone not leading from the seat they're in is one. And this is not the only difference. It's certainly not exhaustive, but one of the things is that someone leading from the seat they're in is, first of all, observant. They recognize what's working, what's not working, and then they have the, you know, they're inquisitive enough to find out who would it Be that I need to bring this potential solution to, right? You know, you're a problem solver if you're a leader from your seat, right? It's not that you have all the answers, but you have some really, really good questions. And you don't sit on those questions. You find out, who should I be asking these questions? And you go ask, bringing along with you the potential solution that you've been thinking about and asking, can you work together with that person to make that solution come to fruition for the organization? It's all in benefit of the organization. The other piece is you just have to be selfless, right? If the goal that you have is to make sure, and I said this in a tweet at some point, right? Really wanting to see other people and the organization or other individuals win is a competitive advantage, right? And so if you're, if you're the person that wants to see your organization win, right? When you see things that are hurdles to the winning of your organization or helping your organization win, like you're not just sitting there and saying, oh man, I wish somebody would fix that. You are literally actively thinking about solutions to those problems, bottlenecks and barriers, and you're bringing your best estimate of what might be a solution. And then you're saying, how can I be involved in solving it? Right. That's just who I am though, right? So the other side of that is somebody who's just like, yeah, I see these problems and I just really want to talk a lot about those problems or I want to talk to colleagues about those problems and commiserate, or I'm just satisfied making my own dollar and chasing my own bag, which I don't begrudge people of that as a right. That's just not who I am.

I mean, it's phenomenal, that selflessness and the not waiting. It's a good segue to one of the questions I want to ask. Because you can. Like, I'm enjoying this because I can hear the leadership side of you as you talk through things and how you apply to the ic, right? You talk about being observant, being a problem solver, being a communicator. Like, those are leadership. Those are manager, director, VP type qualities that you are putting into the IC role. So this question, when I wrote this down, I was like, I wonder if he's going to get where I'm going with this. But I think you will. What do you wish ICs understood about leadership that would make them more understanding, but then also the opposite. What should More leaders understand about being an IC that you think would build that relationship a little bit better. Does the question make sense?

It does, it does.

You've been in both, so you did. Right. And there's almost always that disconnect. Let's start the IC. What should ICs understand about leadership and management and directorship a little bit more. That might make them a little bit more empathetic to their boss and what they have to do.

Yeah, yeah. I think for one, when we think about priority and when we think about triage, that is something that I don't think I ever really understood and got until I was in leadership. Right. And when I say triage, what I mean is that there are now and there's two sides to this and I'll tell you, I'll get to the other side. But when I say triage, what I'm saying is as a leader, there are things that you have to prioritize according to some real parameters and some real structure and standards. And as an individual contributor, I never understood that. I actually thought earlier in my career that I was the priority at all times. Right. My question is priority. You need to answer it. My, you know, my concern or my clients or my prospects concern needs to go right to the top because this is a, this is a prospect. I'm trying to work a deal, right. And not understanding all the other things that are going on in order for a leader to make the team tick, to make the organization tick and to make, you know, their leaders, you know, satiated with the things that they're doing and the work that's being accomplished. So I think that's one. Right. Like as an ic, recognizing the necessity of leadership to triage and knowing that if you're not being gotten to through slack or if an email is not responded to in five minutes like that, maybe there is something that's taking higher priority right now. Now I say that with a caution. Right. And a caveat that said, as a leader I need to also make sure that I communicate what my priorities are to my team. I need you to know that if I like this is what, this is the order of operations as it relates to my level of response to questions, queries, inquiries and problems and so forth. If I'm clear and communicate that well and I hold to my one on one times with you. Right. Consistently, we should be all right. And so it's two sided. It's really communication and understanding to give grace and recognize that there are priorities that don't maybe include you in the Moment as an IC and then as a leader, understanding that the need to communicate those things so that there's no, there's no question about your desire to respond, but inability to because those priorities have been laid forth to the team. Right. So that's what I would say IC should probably recognize about management.

And I love that. I love it.

Right.

And it is like that priorities is hard and as leaders will forget and IC's priority is themselves.

Right?

Their priority, it's an individual contributor. So their priority is the individual contributions that they are making. I think that gets lost in translation sometimes when that's not how you think. Especially running a large org, running a 100, 200 person org. There's different priorities there. So now let's reverse it though.

Yeah.

Back as an ic. Right. What should more leaders understand or appreciate about what an IC is doing that would make them better leaders for the ic?

Yeah, I think, you know, I think leaders generally, and this is, you know, big generalization, I think leaders would benefit from recognizing that you do not have anyone on your team who does not need your coaching, your motivation, your recognition. You don't have that. I don't care who you have on your team. That person does not exist. The question then is, well, if that's the truth and what I seem to look at this person, what I seem to see is a person who's extremely independent, doesn't want to be micromanaged, is an A player is handling their business without a lot of guidance. I feel like that's not a person that I need to be doing those things for recognizing, motivating coaching. That's a bad conclusion. Right. The truth is you need to know what type of, of coaching that person will respond to and needs. You need to know what type of motivation that person will respond and need. You need to know what type of recognition that that person responds to and needs. And so the IC perspective for the leadership is know me, know me. You know, don't, don't paint me into the bucket of a player, B player, C player, or any of those other buckets. Because we are humans and we all need these things, but we need them differently based on our individualism. And it's up to the leader to understand that and bring that to the table. If it's a leader and not just a manager, I love that.

I think that's so important, is like understanding the individual, but knowing that recognition, coaching, motivation has to be there.

It has to be so easy.

So easy. I've made the mistake. I'm sure you've made the mistake of like, all right, this one's good.

That's right, they're good.

Hey, for me this week? Nah, I'm good. All right, go get them, tiger. And then you.

That's right.

No, that's not how you have to approach it. But it's. So as you also mentioned, with the ICL leadership, there's so many priorities that come up that you forget about some of those small things, those small actions. Right. And there's actually a question I skipped over, I want to come back to you is how do you balance? Because it's very hard to be a high performing IC and be selfless sometimes. It's very hard to go handle your biz as a closer and also still make the people around you better and solve problems for them. So how do you balance that? How do you make sure that one isn't distracting too much from the other?

Yeah, if I'm an Aussie, which I am today, and whenever I've been in ic, I'm relatively vocal, I'm relatively sort of out there. I mean, LinkedIn and things like that. But internally it's the same, right. I'm out there. And so when people come to me who are colleagues of mine and they ask a question that I think I have a great answer to, I ask for space in a place where we have to be together to articulate what that question was and what my answer is so that everyone benefits from it. And so I'm not having to do that 50, 60 times or 20, 30 times or 5 to 10 times. Right. So that's, I've always done that. So if you, you know, anyone who's worked with me as an individual contributor knows that at some point in my career, I become someone that people ask questions of. And if the question is something that I believe should be, you know, should be answered, and then this is something that probably could benefit most, I may put it in a slack for the, for the team. That's one effective way. I may put it in an email. That's an effective way. Or I may say, hey, when we have our next team meeting, can I get 15 minutes? Because there was a question that came to me and I think the answer that I have will be beneficial to the whole. That way I can scale what I'm doing just like you want to. Like we always talk about scaling, right? Like you have this, that's what playbooks are for, right? To be able to scale what works. I think as individual contributors, if we're thinking about our contribution to the whole we need to think how we can scale that and not try to be sensates to each person, but take what is brought to you. That seems to be a barrier, a question that you have a good answer to and figure out how you can scale that across the team through one of the mediums that I describe.

I love that because it's so true. Scaling yourself is impossible, but you can share yourself. You can share your knowledge, share your insights and do things around those lines. And so you mentioned three things you said recognition, motivation, and like coaching. Right. I'm going to keep this range thing going here. I see a leader, so how should I seize better approach coaching and how should leaders better approach coaching? How should I see better approach recognition? How should leaders and how should I see approach motivation? How should leaders let's start with coaching. How should I cease approach coaching to make it better than how should leaders approach coaching to make it better?

Yeah. When I think about some of the contexts that I've been in, the best ICs first run through and coach themselves and then ask for additional feedback and any gaps that they may have had in their own coaching. Right. I take a gong call, for instance, like I went through a gong call about a week ago. That was my call. I went through the call and beat it up. Kd. I crushed myself in notes so that anyone in the organization who would look at that call, they'd see my notes.

Love it.

And I can share that call with as many people as I want and say, hey, look at my notes and see if I'm being too hard on myself or actually being too soft on myself or are there things that you also notice that I didn't put in my own notes? Right. So I think coaching, even though I just said that every player from A to D or wherever needs coaching. Right. I still think a good first step for someone who recognizes that they need coaching is not to only rely on the external coaching, but start to understand how to coach yourself because that drives up your self awareness. That drives up the stickiness of what it is that you're that you're finding out and learning. And it can be doubled down from a different perspective when you bring in the external person. So coaching is something you should own but still expect from your leadership. I love that.

So then let's flip it. How should leaders approach coaching have a bigger impact on the ic?

Yeah. Leaders who want to coach because not every leader wants to, but leaders who want to coach know that they don't have an infinite amount of time So I think coaching should be chunked and I think coaching should be as close to real time as possible. And if that means you listen to a call, you know, the day after it happened and you and then you take a portion of that call, I think coaching needs to be something that's like I said, chunked. Right. I don't think a leader should coach on a whole call.

Agreed, Agreed. Right? Yes.

You know what I mean? I think you should coach on a moment or a couple moments from that call so that it can actually be understood, grasped and executed on in a next call. And then you come back after the next call or even some period after that and you make observations about the application or the non application of the thing you coached on. Right. So when I think about coaching, I think incremental, right. I think not overwhelming. Right. I think bite sized chunks and I also think cookie. Right. And when I say cookie I mean what did you do good that I want to see more of? Here's where I think we should start to see some improvement. Let's talk about what that looks like and do you agree? And then great. Also I thought you did a wonderful job on this and historically you have. Let's try to double down on that with that behavior more in the next call and so forth and so on. So I always, you know, I think from a coaching perspective, good opportunity, good. And you usually leave people in a really good place morally and mentally.

I think that's so key. I couldn't agree more. Man the chunking one piece at a time, high repetition, not an hour long demo review. Right. Like stop it. Like it doesn't get anything done. And coaching too, like what a lot of people miss with coaching is they confuse telling with coaching. If you just tell them that's not coaching. Coaching requires feedback and the doing with them a little bit. Get a feel for it, give them feedback on the practice sessions to. And so there's one more question I wanted to ask, you know, around recognition and motivation before we start to wrap up here, which is you've said it a few times actually through this conversation, which is self awareness.

Yeah.

And so I want to talk about self awareness when it comes to recognition and motivation. I don't think a lot of people actually know what motivates them and I don't think a lot of people actually know how they like to be recognized. So one as an ic how can you find that out about yourself? Then again range back to leadership. How can you try to find these things out for your team so you can better recognize and motivate them. So start with this individual. Like how do you find out what motivates you? How do you find out like what triggers you and how you like to be recognized?

Yeah, yeah, I can tell you how I found out. Initially I thought it was money. And then when I started to make some, but it didn't have any, but I wasn't being recognized, I started to hurt. And I started to say, why am I hurting? I'm getting the money that I thought I wanted to get. Why am I hurting? And it was because I wasn't being recognized. And then, you know, I was in roles where I made less, but the recognition was there, the attention and thoughtfulness was there from the leadership and I was all right. And so I started to put two and two together for myself and said, man, I'm actually more motivated by recognition and opportunity to serve and help and having that to be recognized. Right. And that's when I started thinking maybe I should be in leadership in some sort because I actually like what it looks like and feels like to serve someone and help them and then have that recognized back by them. And so that's just who I found myself out to be. And so I think really taking an account of what you feel when things that you say motivate you are either missing or present and then all of the other elements of it as well, right. So someone who says to me, I'm motivated by money. Okay, great. So if I just give you a million dollars and tell you to do this job and don't talk to you again, is that going to be enough for you? And if you're self aware and honest, maybe it would be. And then certainly money is your motivator. But I dare say it's probably not. Right? You don't probably. Yeah. No one wants to be left alone on the island. So it can't be just money.

It's so funny that you mentioned that though, dude, because it's, you know, I have never seen an actual money motivated person not be at the top of the board.

Right.

If you are truly money motivated, you're not in the middle.

That's right.

You're not. You act different. You don't allow it to happen. Right. People like money. They tend to not be motivated by money. Right?

That's right.

What are some ways that leaders can better. I think money leads to lazy management. Comp plans are lazy management. Spiffs are lazy management. If you think just dangling some cash out there will do, doesn't. So like how can Leaders better motivate.

Their reps. Yeah, leaders need to know their reps, right? I mean, just because everyone has these different motivations and the things that motivate me might not even move my colleague. And so if I'm trying to do a blanket motivation, I'm trying to do a blanket inspiration, and I'm trying to do blanket anything. Right. It just doesn't click well because you have a team of individuals with varying personalities and varying proclivities and things that they love and dislike and hate and all of those sorts of things. So I think time spent actually getting to know your people is one of the most important things any leader could ever do, because it actually puts you in a position where you can be the trusted leader. You can be the one who gives psychological safety to the. How do you bring an environment of psychological safety to an organization or a group of people that you don't know? What is psychological safety? I don't know, because for you, psychological safety looks different than for your colleagues. So just knowing your people put you in a position where you can actually motivate people or help people find their own motivations. And sometimes, guess what? If I'm a good leader, sometimes that motivation rests outside of my team. Sometimes that best motivation actually lies outside of our organization. So when we can align with the motivations of the people that we lead, we're not trying to hold people that shouldn't be held, and we're not trying to let people go that shouldn't be let go. Right. We can actually speak to what they're being motivated by and help them to recognize Grass not green over here. Grass is better right here. Because I know you and I know what's actually motivating you. What you're feeling right now is temporary because I know who you are or what you're feeling right now is probably not going to change because I know who you are. Let me help you out of here. Right. And I'm not afraid to do that as a leader. Right. I think the best thing that I can offer to someone is exactly what they want and what they need. And I need to know them to understand that.

I can't remember where I read it, but you just talked about the line, the grass is greener on the other side. And it says, like, why the hell are you looking at the grass? You're not a cow. Like, stop looking at the grass. You are not a cow. Like, stop looking at the grass. That's not where your eyes should be. That means they're on the ground. You need to be looking up. You'd be looking where you're trying to go, not where you're standing. And I've loved that ever since I was like, why are you looking at the grass? You're not a.

Because as humans, man, like, one of the things I found out about myself and I found it to be true about people that I'm close with and in community with, we have ebbs and flows, right? If you have 40 conversations with me, I guarantee one of those conversations is going to be trash. Like, it's going to be like, I'm going to be speaking from the position that I'm currently in. And the things that I say are going to be a result of what I currently see about myself, about my situation, about my scenario. If this is a place where we have psychological safety, then I give you space to change that. In an hour, in two hours, in a week, you feel differently. I don't ding your brand for the way that you felt and the lack of motivation that you felt during that week, especially if I know you, because I now know what's going on in your life, your family and things like that that might be influencing that. And so one of the biggest things too, when it comes to leadership and motivation and all of these things like that is to help your people recognize that you are one person in an organization who desires deeply to protect their brand. So you help them frame their complaint, you help them frame the things that they're feeling in ways that actually can get results where they want it to go. And you don't let them go out there and wild out to leadership, ding their brand and put them on the X list. Right? That's something that another leader. That's something else that leaders can do to motivate people to want to give their blood, sweat and tears for you is knowing that you are safe and you keep them safe when necessary.

And I think that's so crucial. So crucial. This is why I was looking forward this conversation is like to be. Not a lot of people can walk that line, right? A lot of people, once they get into leadership, they never get back to ICs, and a lot of ICs never become leaders. So there's always this divide between the two. So we've been riffing for about 40 minutes now on this. I got two final questions for you. So the first one is, you know, we've talked a lot about with range. I see leadership, motivation, insights, awareness, like, what are the three things that you would want people to remember from this conversation? They forgot everything else we talked about came to like, range and development. Those three things you'd want people to remember.

Yeah. Ownership, curiosity and self awareness. Right.

I love it. And I think those, they blend together so, so well. And that self awareness is something I hope people really picked up on. You have to be very self aware to develop range. You have to be very self aware to change roles and to do different things and to know that, okay, this is what's best for me and to find a company that allows you to do it. So that's amazing, man. So my final question here, right, name of the podcast is Live Better Sell Better. Right? Like, I have this weird idea that if we took better care of ourselves, we took better care of our people, if we lived better, that the sales also improve with it. What would your live better advice be for everyone listening?

Yeah, my live better advice is find community. Right. My live better advice is move your body on a daily basis. I'm not a big proponent of prescribing what exercise to do, but I do believe that you should be moving your body intentionally every single day. Am I live better again? I mean, those are the two, right? Like move your body every single day and find community. Who will tell you the truth about yourself when you're telling lies to yourself?

Oh, there it is. Right? Like, oh, man, I'm glad you called that out because a lot of times when people are searching for community, they're trying to find people like them, that like them.

That's right. That's right.

They're not looking for to be pushed. They're not looking for feedback. They're not looking to be called out on their bs. They're trying to find people like them that like them. So I'm glad you added that little tweet to Community where it's like they're there to push you and help you grow. And so, I mean, man, it's a great kind of wrap up here on it too, is speaking of community, like, where can people find more of you? Right? Like, where can they learn from you, hear from you, follow you? Like, where can they get more Dewan in their lives?

Yeah, certainly on LinkedIn. You know, if you're black and you're in tech sales, you can find me@salesfortheculture.com or in that community. That's one of those communities that I would refer to. I'm on Twitter Stratus now. Those will be the primary points of entry for me.

Oh, yeah, my man. Well, my man, I appreciate you. I respect your range I respect your growth. I respect the impact that you're having on the sales community and especially the black community and sales for the culture. I appreciate you, man. Thank you for your time, energy, and insights today.

Dude, thank you. I appreciate being here.

Hell, yeah.