015 - Zack Zillner - Texas Longhorns Womens Basketball Head Athletic Performance Coach

Welcome back to the Next Level Athletes Podcast. I'm your host, Kelsey Higginson. Zach Zilner, guys. The man, the myth, the legend. I'm a huge fan of this dude and everything that he preaches. So put your phones down, turn up the volume, and listen up. Zach Zilner is the head athletic performance coach of the University of Texas women's basketball team. Very elite athletes. He dives into deliberate practice, setting goals, and the role of intentionality in achieving success in high-level collegiate sports. We tap into how important it is for athletes to align their actions with their goals and to make choices that support their development towards those goals, along with the significance of small choices that are made every day that compound over time and create success. If you guys want to hear how high-level collegiate athletes are trained and how they eat, definitely listen to this podcast because we dove into that and what it all looks like. Finally, Zach was able to share his advice for high school athletes transitioning to high-level collegiate sports, and he emphasized the importance of time management and a strong work ethic. If you are an elite athlete or a parent of an elite athlete, this specific podcast is for you. Let's get into it. All right everyone, today I have Zach Zillner on with me. He is the head athletic performance coach of the Tech University of Texas women's basketball team, which they're big time. Like, they, they are good. And so I'm super excited to have Zach on here. He is a high-level coach and they— we have a lot to learn from him today. So welcome, Zach.

Thanks for having me, Kelsey.

Appreciate you being on. Okay, so I just wanted to jump into it from the get-go, but what is the biggest mistake high school or even collegiate athletes make if they're just showing up to the gym and don't really have a program to follow?

I think the biggest, like, needle mover that athletes can get used to, especially in high school, going to college, or if they're in college, want to have more success, is finding time throughout the day where they can squeeze in either one more shooting session for basketball or some sort of skill development session throughout the day, and then kind of put themselves in a mind frame of You know, if I want to be an All-American or a pro or an all-conference player, like, what does that look like for somebody who is doing that? So like, would an all-conference player, would they sleep in instead of getting an extra shooting session in? Would they, you know, eat fast food at night instead of, you know, a healthy prepared meal? Would they get the required 8 hours of sleep or stay up till 3 AM playing video games? Like, you kind of want to figure out where you want to go and then work backwards from there.

I love that. I've heard a lot of people talk about that too. It's like, are you training according to the level of your aspirations? Because we can talk all day about, yeah, I want to be an NFL quarterback, or I want, I want to make it to Division I level sports, or anything like that. And like, it's easy to talk about it, it's much harder to actually put the work in and do it. And so I love that you talked about like, find, I don't know, find those athletes that you want to be like and then break down what they do and get into the habits because I think it's a big thing.

Like, everybody has goals, but if your actions aren't aligned with— aligning with your goals, then you need to either change your goal or change your actions. And luckily, you know, you have the capability of doing both. But, you know, set realistic goals, and then if you're not doing the things to, you know, put into place that you achieve that goal, like, you're kind of just wasting your time or just talking to talk.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Working with those high-level female basketball players, obviously, like, they won their conference this year, right?

Yeah, they won it, made it to the Elite Eight, which is pretty, pretty special.

Yeah, so you're working with some of the best athletes in the country. What is the difference you see between them and kind of all the other teams or athletes who aren't putting in as much work? Like, what, what's the difference makers with that?

I think the biggest thing is like once you get to like Power 5 Division 1 basketball, like all these athletes were probably the best player in their high school or state. For sure. And so you're competing against all those type of athletes. And so it's, we call it separation season. So like, what are you willing to do every day to either get further away from the competition or to let the competition get closer to you? And the secret is just reps. And are you willing to stay the extra 10 or 15 minutes after practice to work on, you know, the craft that you said you want to be great in? So we're kind of just, our big thing is like, good is the enemy of great. So, you know, you're good, that's why you're here. But if you really want to separate yourself to being one of the top players on the team or in the country, you're going to have to find it somewhere else.

Okay. And we talk about, I've talked a lot about with coaches on here, deliberate reps, right? Cause like a lot of players, and I'm sure that these girls are already like, they've already gotten to the point where if they're in the gym, they're making sure they're making every rep count. They're not just going through the motions. And so how do you, how do you see them being deliberate in their training when they're with you or when they're in the gym, like putting up shots? Like what, what does deliberate look like versus just kind of going through the motions?

I think you got to have intent behind everything you do. So like intentionality and everything. Like if the game's played at 100% and you're only going through the motions at 80%, Like, how do you expect what we're going to do to translate? So we're going to be, you know, working out and practicing anyways. Like, what's the real difference between you holding out and going 80%, just kind of coasting through, and actually just give in and dive headfirst into the deep end and go hard and see what happens? Like, there's never been an athlete that's like, man, I really regret going hard all those years. I really regret putting in the extra effort. Like, no Nobody says that. So I think it's like, what's the worst that could happen if you tried every single day? Like, what's the worst that could happen if you tried? Like, you might get better.

And that's where I see you preaching a lot. Intent drives performance, right? Like, can you expound even— I know you just talked about it, but can you expound even more on that? Like, why do you preach that so heavy?

Yeah, I think there's a difference between just like going through the motions. Like, we always talk like people like to brag like, oh God, I got up 500 shots last night. And so, okay, how were those shots? Were they game-like shots, or were you just kind of chilling, catching the ball from the rebounder, shooting up shots, whatever? And then it's not connecting for some reason in the game. It's like, well, you're not shooting game-like shots when you practice. And so if you're going to be out there doing what you want to do to hopefully translate to the game, why don't we make that as close to the game-like as possible? So like intent, like we joke, like I want intent behind everything. So like whether it's like intent, like you better get a good night's sleep. So what are the things you need to do to set yourself up for that? Or like, you know, we're going to the cafeteria, you have intent to have a great body comp and perform at a high level of practice. Like what kind of meal are you choosing to give yourself the best possible, you know, position to succeed at practice? And I think if you just align all those things together, like, you're gonna be pushed towards the, you know, correct direction that you want. So it's like intentionality in everything we do— relationships, practice, games, all that kind of stuff. Like, have high intent whatever you do, and you're gonna like where you end up at the end of this crazy world we got.

Yeah, that's super valuable advice that you give because it's— I mean, that's truth. Like, a lot of people, I feel like we go on autopilot through life and we just like you said, with relationships, with eating, with training, with anything like that, even in jobs. Like, we just go on autopilot, and that breeds mediocrity. Um, it breeds being average. And so the people who pay small attention to detail and do that very well are the ones who succeed in life, whether it be an athlete or a businessman or like whatever it might be. And so I, I love that. I love that you talked about like the intent. By now I'm gonna, I'm gonna definitely use that in my coaching and in my life.

Um, well, I think we only have like We think, especially when we're young, like everyone thinks they're going to live till whatever, 100, or basically you think you're going to live a long time and you think your career is going to be long, but there's going to be that one day where it's over for both. And do you want to— my worst fears for these guys is when they're my age, they're watching a basketball game someday and they're like, dang, I wish I would have got in extra, did some extra work, or took practice more seriously. Or, you know, taking, you know, weights and nutrition seriously. And like, I don't want them to regret that when they're done playing. Like, so many athletes I see, like, couldn't quite figure it out as far as nutrition, weightlifting habits, all that kind of stuff. And then you see them now in their mid-30s and they're in better shape than they were when they were in college. And it's like, have that switch flip when you're 18 or 19, not, you know, 30, 35, whatever. Um, you only have one career, so like make the most of it.

And the intent and the purpose— I mean, intent and purpose, that they can go hand in hand, like living a life of purpose. And right now for those basketball players, it's like, I want to be the best in the country, I want to, want to make it to the Final Four, to the national championship and all of that. And so like, I love that it breaks it down and makes it so simple to hit those goals of, you know, I want to be that type of player, and so I I mean, recapping what we've talked about so far, what does those type of players do? What do the Caitlin Clarks do? What do, what are those players who are very high level do? And then we work backwards and like, you can see that they pay small attention to detail. They pay attention to the nutrition. They pay attention to getting the extra reps and like everything that we've talked about, it's, it makes it so simple. Like every day you just got to make the, you just got to win the little choices, right? Like you've got to win that meal. You've got to win those reps. You've got to win that practice. And then that just builds and builds and it compounds over time. And to be honest, becoming truly a special player.

Compounding interest right there.

Yep.

I love it. Finance 101. There you go.

And so let's, I actually want to jump into that. Cause I don't think a lot of athletes and people recognize what compounding interest is. I didn't as an athlete, I always thought you get into it what you put out, what, like you get out of it what you put into it, but it's actually, you get more out of it what you put into it if you do it right and consistently. So can you expound more on that?

Yeah, so we'll talk about like their most important activity during the day is practice, and then we work backwards from there. Because practice, like obviously game day, it's your most important day, you need to get a win, yada yada yada. But if you aren't good enough in practice, coach is not going to play you, so game day doesn't matter. And so if practice is my most important thing, we'll just, for instance, we practice at 2 PM. So if I know I got practice at 2 PM, that's the most important part of my day. I'm going to work backwards from there. So what time do I need to eat lunch in order for it to be digested, ready to roll before practice? Okay, I probably need to eat around noon. When I eat, do I go the cheeseburger pizza option or do I, you know, pick something that's going to fuel me to have an unbelievable practice? Okay, I'm going to put these things on my plate that are going to help me to have great energy levels during practice. Okay, before that, Do I need to get some sort of treatment, prehab, rehab? So during practice I'm not going to the sidelines and getting stretched or worked on or all that stuff. Okay, I'll take care of that before.

Okay.

In the morning I need to get in a good strength conditioning session so I get that and feel good, all that kind of fun stuff. And then what am I going to eat to fuel me before that weight session? So I'm going to have an unbelievable breakfast. Things are going to help me you know, fuel to perform. And then the night before, so like, what did I do? Did I sleep for 5 hours? Did I stay up on TikTok too long? Or am I going to get that 8 to 9 hours that I need to recover from that day before? We'll break it down even simpler. Like, the night before, I try to have them plan out their day of like, what time are you eating? What are you eating? Where are you getting it from? What time do you have study hall? What time do you go into lunch? What time do I need to be at the facility for prehab rehab? All that kind of stuff. And so when they wake up during the day, it's not, you know, running around with my hair on fire because I don't know where I'm supposed to be or what I'm going to do. And everything's already laid out. So all they have to do is go to said thing at this certain time and you're going to be, you know, strapped with the skills you need to be successful throughout the day.

I love that. And I think I, as a high school athlete, I would bet a lot of people are thinking, well, that sounds extreme. Like, that, that's a, that's a— that sounds like a full-time job. I'm like, yeah, it is. It is a full-time job, especially if you want to be that good. Like, you have to put the time and the extra effort into it. And then, like we said, the compound effect is they do that day in and day out. They have amazing practices. They, like, their performance is high. They get played in games. And then, like you get out of it more than you put into it because you're just putting in those small little actions day after day, which I think is amazing. And it does take great effort. Um, what is— do all the players follow that advice that you give them? Do they plan? Do they, do they execute? Or do you see certain ones— and I'm not going to ask you to name names here— but do you see certain ones doing it and certain ones not doing it? And do you see the difference with that?

Yeah, I think it's really easy to pick out. And like, I don't like to nag too much. I'm more of like educating them on here's what I would do, here's what I've seen the best do. If you have a system that works great for you, cool. But I try to correlate with like, hey, you had a really good practice today. Like, what'd you have for lunch? Oh, I did what you said, and then I fueled, you know, great stuff before practice. I had energy the whole time, had a great practice. I'm like, cool, let's do that more often. Or Hey, you had a really tough practice today. What happened? Oh, I skipped lunch. Uh, the only thing I had before practice or all day was Goldfish. Um, I was super tired. And you're like, yes, let's connect the dots of like, you feel good when you did these things and you didn't feel very optimal when you did those things. And so I think it's connecting the dots for them. And the hard thing is like, I can't do it for them. So I can't sleep for them. I can't eat for them. I can't organize their day for them. But If I give them these skills and eventually there's going to come to a point where their way either isn't working as well as, you know, a different way. And so it's like until they want to change, we just arm them with education and, you know, try to kind of lead a horse to water, per se. But I think the sooner these athletes figure it out, the more time they're going to have, you know, a lot of success. You see the biggest success usually from their freshman into sophomore year or sorry, sophomore to junior year. Because they've done the dumb things freshmen have of just, college is cool, all that, pulled in all these different directions. And then what makes them really good is, you know, did you figure out your shortcomings? And then are you gonna make the change to have a better junior and senior year campaign? Or are you cool with, you know, just kind of being good and floating through? But there's another athlete coming up, you know, in the class below you that's gonna get better.

Right. With, like I said, there's a lot of high school athletes listening to this and they're very elite. They're probably getting recruited right now. If not, they are committed. I'm working, I own a nutrition coaching business for elite high school athletes called Next Level Athletes Nutrition. And one of the kids, he's going to play baseball at University of Washington. So it's a very high level, No, University of Oregon. Sorry. It's a very high-level baseball program. And so like, what would be your advice to him? He just graduated. He's going into his freshman year. And we've talked about all these things of planning and working backwards and stuff. But as a freshman going into that, and it's kind of like you have school, you have practice, you have all these players who are so much better than you. Like, he's a boy basically amongst men. Like, what would be your advice to people like that?

I'd say, you know, you have great— especially at a school like that, you have a full-time strength conditioning coach, you have a full-time dietitian, athletic trainers, like all these things. Like, meet with them and ask them, you know, how they can help best serve you. Um, especially if they've been working with a coach like yourself, like they should be pretty familiar with these are the foods I like, this is what agrees with me. All this kind of stuff. And then, you know, those coaches who have been in the system, they understand, like, this is how hard practice is, this is what we do on a travel day, um, and they kind of help them help you. Um, so I think getting face to face with a lot of these coaches and showing that you care and that you're willing to put the things that they suggest into action. And I think when Like coaches, you're in this business because you love helping people. Like if you didn't like helping people, you probably wouldn't have your company right now. For sure. So it's like at the end of the day, like coaches love helping people. It's really hard to help people that don't listen. And so I think it's one of those things of like have these candid conversations with these coaches and then put into action a few things that they tell you. And I think, you know, they're in the business of winning and so they're going to give you the best advice that they have. To get you to help them succeed.

And so—

Oh, sorry. No, you're good. No, you're good.

Oh, and so the more that— and I mean, you're in that position, you are the strength and conditioning coach for these female athletes. Do you find that the more they seek you out instead of you having to seek them out and kind of tell them what to do, do you find the more that they seek you out, you give more advice and they take it and like they become better and better and better?

Absolutely. Like, take ownership of your own personal development. I'm at a coach and mentor a long time. I always tell athletes that, like, take ownership of your own personal development. And at the end of the day, like, it's your career. Like, whatever you decide to do, like, that's your career at the end of the day. So you have all these resources, especially at a top-tier school. If you're not taking advantage of it, like, that's your fault. If you are taking advantage of it, that's your fault. And like, they're there, like, use them. Like, you have some of the top people in their field working with you and seek them out. Like, have these great conversations, work on your relationship together, because ultimately they're going to help you get to where you want to go a lot easier than you on your own.

I love that. Because I've heard, I've heard some, and I've talked to some Division I athletes and stuff, and they're like, yeah, I just, the and I'm not going to name names, but I'm like, they're like, so-and-so at my school, they just— I just never really got much nutrition help, and I never really— I don't know, I feel like it wasn't tailored towards me in that. And in talking to you now, in the back of my head, I'm like, well, did you seek it out? Do you actually go and talk to them, or were you kind of just waiting for them? Because I mean, these, these nutritionists, these people, they have a lot of athletes they're over, and so they can't give tailored advice to every single one if they're not coming to them and asking for it.

And so I love— you need to be proactive. And then yeah, like, put it into action. So there's nothing more frustrating, I'm sure, as you get this all the time. People want to lose weight or gain muscle, and you're like, okay, you need to eat extra calories to gain muscle. And then every week they haven't gained weight, and you're like, well, did you do the extra things I said? And they're like, well, no. And you're like, well, I can't— I can't help you, you know what I mean? Like, it's not that complicated. And so then it's come just a point of like, okay, you tell me you want this, you're not putting this into place, How can I help you achieve your goals? Do you need me to be there with you and watch you eat, you know, the extra shake that we made for you? Or do you want me to treat you like an adult and trust that you're going to take ownership of your own personal development and drink the shake that I made for you?

Or no, or whatever. Hands down. And, and I think, and I try to get it through these athletes' heads and stuff, I'm like, every action— and it seems like this is a common topic coming up in our conversation today— but it's like, every action you take is a vote towards or against your future self. And so if you, if you want to be a specific player or have this specific goal, then you have to do X, Y, and Z. If you choose to not do that, if you choose to not wake up, if you choose to not plan your meals out for the day, or if you choose to not eat a couple hours before practice and eat the right things— a lot of carbs, a lot of energy-containing foods— then you're putting a vote against that future self in practice. You're putting a vote against that future self who wants game time. Like, it's just like, like you said, if we can get these athletes to click in their minds of this is what it's all about, and if I, if I get, if I get really good at these details, then those are the things you talk about separation. Those are the things that's going to separate them from their competition.

And taking action's hard. Like, taking action's super hard. Like, I'd venture to say, you know, probably 99% of athletes, if you're like, hey, here's $100, you get $100 if you make a really good plate for lunch. I guarantee you they could do it. And it's like, okay, I don't think there's a lack of education per se. You know, maybe at the higher tier when you're working with these Olympians or athletes that have had crazy nutritional coaching before and everything's dialed in. But for the majority of athletes, like, you know, the right decisions to make. But are you willing to pass up, you know, the fun piece of pizza, you know, for a better option before practice? You know, are you willing to do that, or would you just rather have, you know, the 30 seconds while you're eating that pizza feeling awesome, and then you feel like crap during practice? Like, is that pizza or whatever worth it? And I'm not saying like you can't have fun foods and all that kind of stuff, but like, know the time and place.

I, I can't say it enough. It's just I sound repetitive, but I am because obviously you understand too. It's like you have to say things about 20 times for it to sink into someone's head. And it's, yeah, it's like, yeah, you can have the ice cream or the piece of pizza, but be wise, like you said, about when you eat that, or be wise about like, well, maybe wait till after game day when you have a rest day and you like, you know, it doesn't matter. But like you said, if you choose kind of the easy option, the frozen taquitos or piece of pizza or whatever it might be, 2 hours before a really intense practice, you are literally choosing, I want this kind of fun crappy food, and I desire that more than I desire playing well. And it's like, you're literally— you have these two options, and you're saying, I don't care as much about me playing well, I care more about this food, here I go. And I don't think people realize that, but it really is that simple of a decision of this. Like, you have this choice to have this electrolyte drink, and so like electrolytes and water and stuff, or you can pick up this soda, and they say, I think I want the soda instead of this water and electrolytes, even though I know that this is going to help me be a better player. Like, you're legit choosing, okay, I'm going to be a mediocre player over someone elite.

Yeah, it's your— I mean, at the end of the day, it's— yeah, it's your career. Like, do whatever you want to do. If you want to fuel up with a huge Coke and a tequila before practice, like, that's great. Like, I'm gonna fuel up with, you know, awesome real food, and I'm gonna kick your butt every day at practice. Like, not a big deal. It's cool. It's your career, man.

And then you have people wondering, why do I feel so gassed at practice? Like, why, why am I not getting stronger in the weight room? And I'm like, well, are you doing this, this, and this? And they're like, no. And I'm like, well, yeah, you need to sleep 8 hours a night. You need to eat at least probably 2,500— oh, these girls, probably 3,000 calories a day or more. Like, you need to be eating a lot of and a lot of food and a lot of good food. And it's just, yeah, I can go on a tangent with this stuff, but it's like, it is so, it's so simple that people like hire me for coaching and they're like, that's it? And I'm like, yeah, that's it right now. Like simplicity is the ultimate form of sophistication. Like we just need to follow through on these things. And I feel like they hire coaches more for the follow-through than they do for the programs. 'Cause like you said, If they really, like, if they really wanted to, they could.

Like, I think it's like accountability, buddy, you know? Like, I know for me, like, if I know someone else is gonna count on me for something, like, I'm less likely to screw it up. Like, if I had to report to you at the end of the week what I ate, in the back of my head I'd be like, all right, is Kelsey gonna be thrilled that I picked a large Coke and a piece of pizza before practice when I tell her I want a better body comp? Like, She's probably going to roll her eyes at me, so I'm not going to do that. But like, I always joke with athletes, like with this new age of information of, you know, these TikTok videos or Instagram of like, these 10 foods are bad or these are good or these you should supplement with this. And it's like, okay, like we're not even going to debate if that stuff's good or not, but like that 1% to make an improvement is not going to be— it doesn't matter if you take creatine if you're eating like crap all day. Like, is it a great supplement? The most researched supplement around? Do I encourage you taking it? Absolutely. But it's not going to be the big rock, you know, that you're going to move for performance. If you're missing breakfast, having a subpar lunch, not eating dinner, like at the end of the day, it doesn't, it doesn't matter. You're eating, you're worried about the icing on the cake without the actual cake base.

For sure.

So yeah, those are always the— I'm sure you fight those battles more than I do.

Yes, you're preaching it. It's like, I— in my DMs all the time, like, I just get flooded with high schoolers, and, and you can tell pretty easily from their account. And, and this might be like judging a book by its cover, but you can tell pretty easily by how they text you, what they're asking you about, like the type of questions they are asking, like, okay, you're legit, or yeah, you're just kind of wanting it quick magic pill fix.

Totally, totally. Everyone wants the quick fix and no one wants to hear like, all right, if you want to look like this or perform like this, it needs to be weeks and weeks and months and months of this. It's not going to be the pre-workout or the cool new supplement or intermittent whatever. Like, it's— that's not the answer.

And then I get kids all the time being like, hey, what supplement should I have? Like, what are the supplements I should to do. And, and I'm not a supplement— yeah, exactly. And I'm like, I'm not a supplement pusher. There are the ones, as we know, that are science-backed and based. And, and it's like, once you have everything dialed in, then we'll approach supplements. But I always tell them, I'm like, if you're not eating this much protein a day, this many carbs a day, like this much real— doesn't matter— grains a day, like, I'm like, you have no business even looking into it.

Yeah, it's like if You're getting your learner's permit for a car, like you're going to learn on like a Honda Civic or something like a slow, easy, controllable car. They're not going to give you a Ferrari day one if you've never driven a car before. And so it's the same things have to, you know, build your way up to earning the right to ask those questions of, okay, I'm dialed in with all my meals. What supplementation do you think could help enhance my performance?

And those enhance it like maybe like a couple percentage-wise, right? Like it's like 5, maybe 10% at best. And those are the really, really good supplements. But I think that's what people don't realize is like caffeine. And I always get this too, but it's like kids are like, well, no, I preach against caffeine a lot on my feed. And they're like, and I get all these kind of hate comments on, no, caffeine's super good for endurance and this and that. And I'm like, well, yeah, I know that.

So are carbs.

I know that, but I'm like, Yeah, exactly. I'm like, but are you eating enough carbs? Are you eating, or are you like, are you getting enough sleep? Or are you just using that energy drink that has a load of crap in it to mask and put a Band-Aid over the bad night's sleep and the lack of nutrition that you got today? So it kind of exposes people a little bit more. Totally. Um, well, I love, I love talking nutrition, especially from people like you. Like, you are in like you are in it right now. You are with these girls. You are, you are coaching the type of athletes that most high school athletes want to be. And so I think it's very valuable for them to hear it, not just from someone like me, but like someone like you. Like, you are in it right now, um, and I really appreciate that you see those things similarly. And I would bet probably 99% of coaches would say the same thing all around the country. Um, with nutrition, I, I had another question for you though, but like, do all of the athletes that you are working with, do they have their nutrition pretty dialed in? Do they take advantage of those resources or, or do some of them, like, have they not really caught onto it yet?

I think there's some, I think there's a big misconception of like, you have to, something needs to be like 100% palatable, like the best thing I've ever tasted. To eat it. And it's like, yeah, like, whole foods are never going to compete with a Dorito or mac and cheese, like any of these crazy hyperpalatable foods. And like, I get that. But like, on the other end, like, a chicken breast is going to outperform Doritos every day of the week. So it's like, are you willing to sacrifice a little bit less of this crazy Doritos flavor or whatever for something that can help you perform towards the goals you want to do? Or are you going to succumb to the quick pleasure of, yeah, this bag of Doritos is awesome, this Coke is great, whatever. And so with that, it's kind of— we'll sit down. We're lucky enough to have like an unbelievable cafeteria food area for these athletes to eat. And we'll do like— we eat lunch, right? Or sorry, we eat breakfast every day after weights in the summer. So we'll go down there and we can do something. We'll do like a little education thing, and then that's cool. I let everyone either build their plate, or if you want to not even think, I can help you build your plate. And we have a full-time sports dietitian, she helps with that as well. So it's kind of like, go through the line, let me see what you got. Okay, I'm never gonna like, your plate's trash, I'm gonna throw it away, blah blah blah. But it's like a learning thing. So it's like, okay, You know, we talked about having good carbs. You know, we have, you know, whole grain English muffin here, or we have French toast sticks with syrup. It's like, okay, like, which would probably be the best option if you're trying to keep your body comp the same? Like, let's go with a nice whole grain option or fruit or oatmeal or whatever. And if you are going to get the French toast stick, like, we don't need 8 of them. And maybe if you get the French toast stick, we don't use the syrup. And it's kind of like showing them of like, pick whatever carb you want, but like, let's be sensible with how much and the quality of carb you're getting. And I get it. There's some days you're like, man, those French toast sticks look awesome. Like, I want that today. It's like, cool, we can do that today. Let's get a smaller amount because, you know, probably 2 French toast sticks equals 2 or 3 English muffins. And so it's like, do you, do you want to be less full and have that quick hit of sugar, like, that's fine if you want to do that today. Um, and then like for a protein option, like, do you like eggs? There's some, you know, athletes that don't like eggs, and I get it. Like, eating eggs every day is like, well— and so we'll have a couple options, whether it's like a steak option or a chicken option. Um, I always tell them, like, just because it's breakfast, you don't have to eat breakfast food. So like, if you don't like, you know, breakfast food, or you can't get enough protein by eating pancakes or hash browns or whatever, like, it's fine to make a salad. Like, there's no rules, like, this has to be a breakfast type meal or not. And so we'll kind of go through there and show them how to organize their plate of, like, this is the carb section, pick one or two from here. Here's the protein section, pick one or two here. Here's the healthy fat section, pick one or two here. And then show them how to make variety, um, basically make their meals taste good. So I think a lot of these athletes, like, They're not good cooks by any stretch of the imagination. So we, you know, have them try all these different sauces or hot sauces or whatever. And it's like, see, if you put that on that, that tastes a lot better, doesn't it? Cool, cool. So we kind of design— help them design their plates. And then I always ask them like, how do you feel now? Like, I'm not as tired after eating, you know, the fresh fruit and the chicken breast and the piece of avocado as I was when I downed all the French toast sticks. Right, cool. So if you're about to go to class, you want to make something that makes you super tired or alert, ready to go? Like, oh, alert, ready to go. Okay, well, let's choose this option. So we'll do that. And then during the school year, we'll eat lunch together and we'll kind of help them like design their plates. And I think once you— it kind of works with like people who like measure their food and you kind of get familiar with, okay, this is what 8 ounces of chicken looks looks like, this is what 2 cups of carbs look like. And I think when you get used to, okay, this is how my plate should look, um, if you just repeat that over and over, like, you're gonna have success. Um, so I think it's just like teaching them the basics. And I think physically going through the cafeteria line is a lot easier to learn than like me throwing up a pie chart on the whiteboard and been like, half your plate carbs, half whatever. Um, so I think actually Putting them through the line and then getting to know like their preferences. Like, yeah, chicken breast was a great option, but if you don't like chicken, like, let's explore. Do you like red meat? Do you like turkey? Do you like seafood? Um, like all this stuff, it's pretty much the same thing. So find stuff you like and then get that.

I love that. Education drives compliance.

I always—

absolutely. I always preach that. And it's like once they— and I love that you— it's just so simple, but it's effective how you, you say, okay, like, how did that make you feel? What did that do? And the light bulb clicks and the gears turn. They're like, oh, I get it. Like, that's why. And, and then the next time they go to reach for the 8 French toast sticks, they're gonna hesitate and be like, oh yeah, maybe I don't want that. And so it's like, it— that, that's so rewarding when you see athletes like finally get it.

And you're like, oh, I get pictures all the time throughout the day and they're like, oh, I got a, a pro-level plate. Check this out, what do you think? I'm like, that's perfect. So I always tell them, like, when you're away from here and you want to send me a picture of your plate or whatever, like, do so. I can help coach you then. Um, and so a lot of them buy into it and they, they like it a lot. And I think when we can correlate— because I think too often than not, like, especially when people come to see you, like, they're probably not dialed in with their stuff as much as they could be. So they're always used to eating a bad meal, feeling like crap, and that's what they just think eating is. And then once they finally eat some stuff that's geared towards them and they correlate with like, wow, I feel better, like I don't need to take a nap, I don't need another coffee, like that's when you get the big wins right there. And then it's repeatability over and over and over for sure.

And I think it's an even bigger battle, and this is why I, I really appreciate— and a lot of parents listen to this too— but I really appreciate supportive parents when it comes to the nutrition stuff too, because there's a lot of kids in most of America, like, they're— we're eating— it's called the SAD diet, like, just a lot of sugar, a lot of additives, a lot of just crap, um, a lot of preservatives. And so most parents, it's easy for them to buy the taquitos or to buy the frozen pizza or to, to get those things. And so naturally the kids are going to eat what the parents buy. And so I think if parents are able to get on board and realize, like, I mean, if parents really— and a lot of times parents are— seems like their dream for their kids are bigger than the kids' dreams themselves. And it's like, well, if you really want to help them succeed, then do the research on not just the training, not just the best teams and practices and stuff like that, but do the research on all the things that we've been talking about.

Yeah, because in the day, like, most high school kids aren't going to the grocery store. No, like, they don't have a car, the money to do that, and I'm not a parent, so I'm not going to speak on you need to do XYZ. And I get it, like, you have work, juggling your kids' practices, your life, all this kind of stuff. And yeah, there are the easy options of warm up the taquito in the microwave, blah blah blah blah. Um, so I'm not gonna say like, here's what I would do, because I have no experience with that. But like, kind of make it easier on your kids to do that stuff. So we always joke like the one thing I hate seeing is a beige plate. So everything on the plate's brown or beige and there's no color. And so I'm like, little things will just try to add to their plate to make it colorful. So if you notice like you're eating dinner every night and you're serving, you know, your kids a beige plate every night, like mix it up and try to add, you know, fruits, vegetables, different variety, and I don't know, I think that's the biggest needle movers for a lot of these high school kids. It's like accessibility. Like, if your house is stocked with good food, it's hard to eat crap. I know for me personally, like, I can never buy that stuff to put my house because I have no self-control. Yeah, there's a chip bag in there, it will be deleted by sundown. And so I know, like, when I do want to have fun meals or whatever, like, I'm gonna go out buy that one specific thing that I want, eat it, enjoy it, whatever. And then I'm not going to buy the huge bag of chips to take and eat throughout the weekend. I'm just going to get the small bag, eat it that one time and be done with it.

And I think you kind of—

yourself. Yeah. If you have crap around the house, I think it's too easy. Like you're bored sitting on the couch and you're like, hmm, what's in the pantry? And then if you go in, then there's no bad choices. You're like, am I actually hungry or am I just bored? Right. And so like if there's veggies or fruit in the fridge and I'm bored watching TV and I don't want to eat those, I'm like, probably not that hungry. So maybe just drink a glass of water and chill out. So I think it's just not having that bad stuff around.

Yeah, I think like you said, the accessibility is huge. And that's where— and parents, I mean, you don't have to make a full 5-course meal or anything every day either. Like it literally can be as simple as going to Sam's Sam's Club or Costco, and there's some really easy prepped meat and stuff like that that is actually pretty dang good for you, and ready-to-go salad kits, easy 90-second rice bowls. Like, there's a lot of different things, and that's— I'm gonna roll out with some content kind of showing parents that type of stuff because it's like, I don't think they realize how simple and easy it can be. Same with college athletes. Like, people get there— if they're— if they don't— if they're not at like those higher-level Division I schools or don't have those cafeteria the cafeteria, like, luxuries. Um, they sometimes have to be cooking by themselves, providing their own food. And so kind of teaching them, like you said, how to build a plate by themselves and how to do so in under 10 minutes is super valuable for both high school.

No, I think that would be huge value because I think people look at meal prep or making meals that it's this huge cooking-intensive thing you have to do. And I think part of that is like nutrition is like a nuanced field, which is wild to say that. But like growing up, like I'm old, but when I was a kid there was never like we just had dinner and that was it. And like we didn't really— I don't think my parents took into account of like, need to have this much protein, carbs, where's this fruit's coming from, all this kind of stuff. And I think now in the new age of all this information, it kind of overcomplicates everything. So not everything needs be. Like, you can get a rotisserie chicken, some frozen steamed vegetables, and then a side of fruit, and like, that's a great meal you have right there. It took no time, already prepped, good to go. Um, so I think, yeah, if you put together little, you know, 10-minute meals like that, I'm definitely stealing your stuff and showing it to our kids for sure.

I'll send it over. I'll talk to you about it in a, in a little bit. But yeah, we're rolling out with like a whole kind of like guide to optimal nutrition for parents and athletes. So we're excited about it. We're going to be dropping it in beginning of August. So we're excited about it. Nice. That reason, because like these high schoolers, these college athletes, they're— and like I said, the ones working at schools like University of Texas, it's a lot easier for them because they have the food being made and the coaches, the awesome coaches like you helping them with that. But if they don't have those resources or options, it can be very difficult to understand how to do it. And so creating, again, like the 10-minute simplicity, like, type stuff is key. So we're excited about that, to, like you said, make it super simple to fuel their bodies and know what to keep in their gym locker, and then, like, the, um, know what to eat before weights, and just, just spell it out so simple for them that, like, they have no excuse. So yeah, I'll have to show it to you when, when we have it done. That'd be, that'd be fun to get some feedback from you on that. I've loved everything we've talked about. I kind of want to change gears from nutrition though and talk even more about your powerhouse with the strength and conditioning side of things. And I saw that with your podcast, Coach 'Em Up, I was seeing some clips and some people that you've had on and stuff. And I thought that this was a very interesting one, but the topic of Kelsey Higginson kids lifting often too much and not focusing as much on explosiveness, agility, speed, anything like that. Like, there's a lot of kind of disparity between the two. And so I kind of wanted to pick your brain on what is— what are your— what is your opinion? What is your thoughts on kids who are just doing kind of muscle building hypertrophy work and not spending as much time with the explosiveness, agility, maybe body awareness type work.

I think it goes with like, why are you training? So if like you're training for athletic performance, like sure, putting on muscle mass will help, um, but if that comes at the cost of you slowing down or losing your athletic qualities that make you a good athlete and mover, like then it's too much. And so I always joke in my personal experience, like when I was done playing competitive sports. Like, I just wanted to be big and jacked and strong, and I did that for probably like a year, 2 years. And then I would catch myself when I was demoing stuff for our kids, I felt like just awkward and like a rock that was moving back and forth. I'm like, I'm not as fluid as I used to be. And it's like, oh well, duh, like you're not working on these athletic qualities, and so like why would you be good at those anymore. Like, you're really good at picking stuff up and setting them down, and, um, that's not very advantageous for someone who has to move in all planes of movement at different velocities, you know, in a game or practice. And so I think you have to realize, like, what's my main goal? Is it to, you know, look awesome and be really strong, or is it to, you know, be strong, look awesome, and also be able to perform at a high level? And so I think if, you know, your goal is to be more athletic and everything, if you're not incorporating in some sort of rhythmic movement, speed development, throwing, change of direction, like you're kind of missing the boat on athletic performance. And I think there's a big difference between a strength and conditioning coach and then an athletic performance coach. So like strength conditioning coach, I think, yeah, it should just be like progressive overload. Get stronger, um, you know, progress these lifts over time, which is what most high schools have, right?

Correct.

Which I think for younger athletes, like in the beginning, I think that's, you know, important. You should have great form, work on practicing the lifts, because I think a lot of people forget, like, lifting is a skill. Like, if you are a high school freshman and you back squat once a week for a year, that's only 52 times of you practicing that movement. And so like, you shouldn't be good at that. And so if I only have 52 times of practicing that lift, you know, why am I such in a rush of adding weight? And I think if you're just a strength coach, like, you get judged off of— you can show coach at the end of the year of Jimmy put 50 pounds on his bench press and 100 pounds on a squat. I'm so good at my job. And it's like, okay, did they get Faster? Are they better on the field? Yada yada yada. And if, if are they less injured? And if those things aren't answered, then it's like, okay, you got them really good at lifting but not necessarily better at their sport. And so I think there's this fine line of doing all that stuff. And you know, when I was a young strength coach, like, I loved being able— all my athletes look perfect when they lift, and then to show coaches like, look at all the weight. We can lift now compared to 6 months ago or a year ago, right? And I think you're kind of missing the mark on like, okay, did that athlete play more from his freshman to sophomore year? Were they less injured, you know, during that time period as well? And if you can answer those, then you're probably on the right track. Um, but I see too many times where people just care about how much are they squatting, benching, hang cleaning, all that kind of stuff, and You're not taking into account all the other things they need to do to be really good at sport.

Do you feel like there's a lot of head coaches out there— and I've seen some of your content— that a lot of people don't really understand what your job actually entails and is supposed to be? I think a lot of kind of head coaches maybe take the old-fashioned stance or belief system of this is what strength and conditioning is, and this is how much my players need to be squatting and benching and stuff in order to be elite? Like, is that kind of what they think and expect from you guys?

Yeah, I think for the longest time, like, everyone thinks like weight room, it's like toughness, and then you need to be bigger, stronger, faster, which like, sure, but at the end of the day, like, we're periodization experts. And so it's like, how does our weightlifting and strength conditioning, athletic performance, how can that impact practice to get higher outputs in practice? Because remember, practice is our most important part of the day. So how do I need to structure our week? How should practice be structured so we get the most out of our days that we can? So if like today is supposed to be a fast day on the field, like we need to mimic that in the weight room, it needs to be a fast day in the weight room. Or, you know, it's more of a— we're going over schemes and tactics, so we're standing around a lot in the weight room and on practice. The weight room should be tailored, pulled back a lot too. So we try to keep our high days high and our low days low. I think the old school way of thinking was if it's hard in practice, it needs to be easy in the weight room, and if it's easy practice, needs to be hard in the, hard in the weight room. Then you just have a medium day every day, and you don't get better with just medium days. And so I think it's educating those coaches of what exactly we do and how can we best help them to get the best performing players out there. And like, the toughness argument all the time, like, weight seems to be so tough that way the Games are easy. It's like, no, uh, practice needs to be tough. Like, you get good at your sport practicing. If your team is not tough, you aren't a tough coach at practice. Like, it doesn't matter the weight room stuff. I've worked with plenty of athletes that are super tough in the weight room and suck on the field, and I've worked with plenty of athletes that suck in the weight room and really get on the field. So I think it's one of those things, like, until we're getting extra points to have, you know, the strongest back squatter on our team, you know, for squatting before tip-off, and our strongest player's tongue in the air, we get 10 points, sure. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I think, you know, we're just master, you know, periodization experts, and it's up to you to kind of educate the coaches of what skills you can bring to the table to help enhanced practice.

Yeah, I studied, I studied exercise physiology. Um, that's what I got my bachelor's degree is actually is in. And so I love talking about all of this stuff and the periodization. And like you said, there is some old-school ways of thinking and like kind of like what the textbooks talk about, exactly what you said, like pull back if it's super hard practice day and then add if it's not and stuff like that. And so, um, for if we were to kind of talk to high school athletes Obviously they have their strength and conditioning coaches who might be somewhat educated in it, but pretty old school as well. Um, what— and maybe they don't have an athletic performance facility around them that they're blessed to go to. What would be your advice? Like, what is a simple form of periodization that they can begin to apply to make sure that they're optimizing their performance in high school as juniors and seniors?

I think the biggest thing, like, I remember me being a high schooler, like, the most fun thing to do is like every day you try to PR on everything. Yeah. And I think the biggest thing is like you don't need to do that. Quality movement's more important. I know every 16-year-old's rolling his eyes at me right now, probably coaches too.

Don't ego lift. Exactly.

And like my whole thing is like, hey, If a lift is supposed to be performed a certain way and you are just bastardizing it just to get the weight up, like, you're technically not doing the lift prescribed. So if you're trying to back squat and, you know, your back's rounded and your hips come up first and then you're like, that's not a back squat anymore. I'm not sure what that is, but your strategy to lift the bar up wasn't what a back squat was. And so you're not going to get the benefits that come with a back squat if you're doing it wrong. And I think you need to listen to your body. And if something doesn't feel right when you're doing a movement, especially if you have pain in a certain area, you need to communicate that with a coach. Um, or, and hopefully they can find you a different movement that suits your body type and where you're at, you know, in your physical development. Or if you're lifting on your own, like if something doesn't feel right when you're doing it, don't do it. Like, I've seen too many coaches like, everyone needs to back squat, and this kid has short torso, super long legs, and their lower back kills when they back squat. And it's like, yo, there's 100 different ways we can get your legs stronger than just back squat. Um, so I think, you know, communicate. Hopefully you have coaches that are open-minded. I get it. Like, there's a lot of places where it's like, just shut up and do the movement, which I'm so sadly sorry for. Um, but yeah, I think listen to your body, and then every day doesn't need to be PR day.

I love that. This has all been super valuable. There's, there's kind of one last topic slash question I wanted to talk to you about, but what— I feel like we've already kind of touched on it too, but for these high school athletes, what are like your top 2 pieces of advice if they're— as they're going into collegiate sports? Like, what are the top 2 things that they need to kind of go in eyes wide open for?

Um, I think the biggest thing is start— like, every athlete when they commit to us, they want the workout program and all this stuff. And I always tell them, like, get used to— pick, you know, get used to coming in an extra hour throughout your day, somewhere in the day. So if you have weights you're already doing and then a skills coach in the afternoon, like, find an extra 30 minutes to an hour in that day to get in extra shooting or extra training and kind of get used to coming in 3 to 4 times a day. And so if you get these habits already done when you're, you know, you're spring before the year before you're going to college, like it's going to make it a lot easier just because your time will be gone once you're an elite level college athlete. Like you will be pulled in so many different directions. You know, you'll have practice, weights, study hall, school, social life. And so you need to get used to mapping out your day before and sacrificing that time to do that. Because if you're not used to doing that kind of stuff, your first week in college— like our first— what the typical athlete day for us in the summer is, we lift at 8:00, kids are usually in the gym on their own at 7:00 shooting for an hour. And we'll eat breakfast, they'll go to class, they'll come shoot before practice, we'll have practice, and then they'll do prehab rehab and stuff after practice. So if you look at that, like, it's a 7 to 5 or 6 day, for sure. And those are the kids doing the bare minimum. And so it's like, if you want to separate yourself, like, that 7 to 5 days is going to probably be a 7 to 7 day. Or, you know, we have weekends off, you might want to try to come in on the weekend and work on something. And so I think it's one of those things of like, do you love the sport? And I always ask these kids on the recruiting visit, like, do you actually love basketball? Is it one of those things you just happen to be really good at? And if you don't love it, you're really going to struggle here at Texas because of the expectation and the standard. So just athletes forget, like, practice and weights, it's required to be on the team. Like, you have to go to those sessions. So what are you willing to do outside of your requirement? And I think if you don't love basketball, it makes it a whole heck of a lot harder to put in the time commitment required to do that.

Inspire. Yeah, I totally agree. And I think a lot of people like the idea of playing a Division I sport more than they would actually like playing the Division I sport. So I think it's really good for them to kind of be very honest with themselves, saying like, what do I want? And if that gets them excited, if that gets them kind of like, yeah, heck yeah, like, I'm ready to go, I want to be putting in the extra work, then that's a good answer of like, okay, you'll probably fit here.

So yeah, you're in the right place. And we always joke, like, I always tell recruits, like, if you don't like putting in extra time and working hard and the effort needs to be, you know, 100%, like, don't come here. Like, you have one career, you're gonna have a miserable time here if you're not a gym rat or somebody that likes to work hard, because every kid on our team likes to work hard. Like, you're almost a loser if you don't come and shoot extra or take like our team stuff seriously. Like, there's plenty of schools I've been at where you have top 4 kids that are super invested, your middle 8 are kind of on the fence either way, they'll do what you want, and then you have like the bottom 3 or 4 that like are basically there because they want free school or their parents made them. And so we've kind of a unique group now where it's all 15 kids, like, they want to get better, they want to win a national championship, they want to win a conference championship, and they know the work that's required to do that. So I'm like, if you don't like practicing, you know, 2 or 3 hours, and your other schools are telling you, like, we only practice an hour, hour and a half, and it's easy, and you don't have to do all this stuff, like, if that sounds more appealing, like, go do that. Like, you will not like it here. You'll have a miserable time. Like, don't come here. But if you want to come here, that's going to cause you to grow because it's going to be challenging, like, there's no better place. Like, it's a perfect incubator for athletes that love to work hard. So we just try to keep it real with them, and then hopefully— usually they get it first week. They're like, oh shoot, you weren't joking. I'm like, yeah, I'm not joking.

That's awesome. Well, Zach, thanks so much for being on today and for talking about all this, kind of giving us an insight what it's like to be at a high-level school that you're coaching at. I really appreciate it, and I know that all the athletes listening too will get a ton out of this. I appreciate you being on.

Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me.