Episode 52: Is there an ideal Class Size?

Are you doing these critical things to help your child succeed academically? Take the quiz now to find out the important actions you can take to enhance your child's education. Go to my website, liberationthrougheducation.com quiz and take the quiz today. Foreign welcome to another episode of K12 Education Untangled. My name is Dr. Kim Fields, former corporate manager turned educational researcher and advocate, and I'm the host of this podcast. I I got into this space after dealing with some frustrating interactions with school educators and administrators, as well as experiencing the microdiscriminations that I faced as an African American mom raising my two kids who were in the public school system. I really wanted to understand how teachers were trained and what the research provided about the challenges of the public education system. Once I gained the information and the insights that I needed, I I was then equipped to be able to successfully support my children in their educational progress. If you're looking to find out more about current information and issues in education that could affect you or your children, then you're in the right place. Thanks for tuning in today. I know that staying informed about K12 education trends and topics is important to you, so keep listening. On today's episode, I'll be discussing the pros and cons of K 12 public school class size. The popular consensus seems to be that smaller class size is better. Parents, teachers and administrators, as well as teacher unions support the idea of smaller classes. However, empirical evidence and research on class size are decidedly mixed. Those against smaller class size indicate that actually increasing class size would be more cost effective and would allow schools to attract more qualified teachers by offering higher salaries. Where do you stand on this issue? I delve into the studies and the discussions to uncover the essence of of class size. On this episode. Let's get started. A new research report from the Brookings Institution's Brown center on Education Policy indicated that only a very large reduction in class size on the order of seven to 10 students per class are likely to lead to significant long term effects on student achievement. In 2011, 24 states had either mandated class size reductions or offered incentives for schools to shrink classes. Although many of those incentives may not be worth the cost because the average class size reductions weren't large enough to make much difference in student achievement, other improvement efforts, such as cross age tutoring or computer aided instruction, may yield more bang for the buck. One of the primary reasons behind raising class sizes is constrained budget conditions. Research just hasn't indicated all the benefits about class size reductions. One of the challenges for elected officials and educators is that there's no research in the United States that directly compares class size reductions to alternative investments. In other words, there's no direct comparison of the benefits of $20 billion worth of spending on keeping class sizes small versus $20 billion of spending on paying teachers more. It seems to involve a lot more guesswork than science. A key area where the research does show small classes are likely to make an impact is with disadvantaged students in early grades. Elected officials tend to make these class size decisions with imperfect information. These are huge decisions. By some estimations, a 1 student increase in the pupil to teacher ratio would save the US schools $12 billion per year and would decrease the teaching workforce by 7%. If large numbers of teachers were laid off without any regard to their effectiveness, then it could have a negative impact on student achievement. Interestingly, student achievement actually increased when class sizes were larger in the United States prior to World War II. But keep in mind, the relevance of that research is limited because of the way schools are organized now, the nature of the teacher profession, and other factors that have changed quite a bit since then. According to a British study by the University of London Institute of education in 2008, students tend to be off task more often when they are in larger classes. Studies on class size have long suggested that elementary school students tend to learn more in classes of 20 students or fewer. In this British study, the researcher found that both elementary and secondary students benefit from small classes and that the benefits at the secondary level are particularly strong for the lowest achieving students. The study also found that low attaining students were nearly twice as likely to be disengaged in classes of 30 students as they were in classes of 15 students. This does not mean, however, that teachers are capitalizing on the smaller settings to engage more students in collaborative projects. It's also worth noting that larger class sizes in the 33 to 34 student range are very common in countries such as China and South Korea. High achievement in those countries is still achieved. Although culture may play a significant role. A new study suggests that reducing class sizes, a popular policy among parents, teachers and lawmakers, might not necessarily reduce the achievement gaps that exist between students in a given classroom. Project STAR was a longitudinal research study on class size reduction in Tennessee. This study is considered the gold standard study. A researcher on the study found that relating class size didn't appear to narrow achievement gaps between students. The research also found that there was in fact a range from the lowest achievers to to the highest achievers and it was greater in the smaller classes of 13 to 17 children than it was in larger classes of 22 to 26 students. Basically, this research found that high achievers benefited more from being in small classes than low achievers. This indicates that the achievement gap was larger in small classes and in regular sized classes. As with many school improvement methods, the results from class size reduction efforts are mixed. While some researchers say that smaller classes produce increases in student achievement, others argue that once class sizes drop, teachers must also alter their practices for students to benefit. Regardless of the debate, many policymakers and the public face favor class size reductions, especially in the early grades. The academic benefits of small classes seem to be the greatest in kindergarten and first grade and then fall off in second and third grades. Reducing class sizes seems to have an overall positive effect on groups of students that usually trail behind in academic achievement. These are typically students of color and students from low income households. Instead of focusing on class sizes, educators and administrators need to focus on how schools are becoming more flexible to meet the needs of different children. In 2010, according to estimates from the US Department of Education, the average class size was 25 students. Former Secretary of Education Arne Duncan indicated that districts should be shifting away from class size based reduction. That's not evidence based. What constitutes evidence based reductions has been at the crux of class size debate for more than a quarter of a century. Proponents of reducing class size argue that it's the simplest, most direct way to improve student achievement, while opponents argue that the small, generalized reductions that result from most state policies don't provide enough improvement to justify their cost. The federal class size reduction program, which have provided more than $4 billion in the 1990s, was eliminated from the no Child Left Behind act, the 2002 reauthorization of the elementary and Secondary Education Act. Critics also argue that most class size reduction programs are too general and improvements aren't substantial enough to balance the cost of shrinking class sizes, which is one of the most expensive education improvement strategies. For example, Florida estimated that its class size program, which state voters decided November 2, 2010 to keep in place, would cost $40 billion over the next decade. Certain regulations hold that preschool class sizes at or below 20 and that require one teacher for every 10 children are largely adequate for most children. According to a recent report that analyzed nearly 60 years worth of early childhood research, only child to teacher ratios of 7.5 to 1 or lower or or class sizes of 15 children or fewer were linked to benefits for children, and even those benefits, while statistically significant, were not large. Small classes seemed to have a positive effect on social emotional outcomes but the study didn't see any impact from low child teacher ratios. These findings may not apply to children who have high needs, which was another area of the study that was of no focus. There are several states that have a class size reduction policy, including California, Nevada, Montana, Washington, Texas, Louisiana, Florida, Georgia, Virginia, Ohio, and Tennessee. By way of example, let's focus on three of those states Washington, Florida and California. By a very close margin, Washington voters in 2014 approved a ballot initiative to reduce class sizes and hire more teachers and other school personnel. The initiative required the hiring of more teachers across grade levels in order to reduce class sizes. It also required schools to hire more librarians, counselors, school nurses, paraprofessionals and facilities, and maintenance staff. The new average size caps for all classes and for students with more than 50% in poverty were grades K3, 17 students to 15 students, which was down from about 25 students grade 4, 23 to 22 students, down from about 27 and for grades 5 through 12, 25 to 23 students, down from as high as 28. It's important to note that these numbers are not strict per classroom numbers, but an average across all classrooms, which means some classes still could be quite a bit bigger. The initiative's price tag was about $2 billion. The initiative also didn't specifically outline how the districts were to apply the funds to reducing class sizes. In fact, the initiative stated that districts with capital facility needs that prevented them from reducing actual class sizes to funded levels may use class size funds for school personnel who provided direct services to students. Florida schools and districts faced hard and fast mandates for achieving low class sizes that were mandated through a 2002 constitutional amendment. Those penalties range from a few thousand dollars in some schools and districts to $16.6 million in the Palm beach county system. Schools and districts in Florida were required to max class sizes for core subjects at 18 students for grades K3, 22 students for grades 4 through 8, and 25 students for grades 9 through 12. The schools and districts that didn't meet these requirements stood to lose a portion of their class size categorical funds, with some of that money being reallocated to districts and schools that were in compliance. Districts across Florida have struggled with the class size requirements, which leaves many Florida districts in a bind. And now to California. California's push to reduce the size of classes in the primary grades has delivered a second year of small gains in achievement, According to a 2000 report from a consortium of research groups. That was the good news. The bad news was that teacher qualifications continued to decline with the effects most pronounced in lower grades and in schools serving poor or minority children. This report came during California's fourth year of a closely watched $4 billion effort to reduce class sizes to 20 pupils or fewer from kindergarten through third grade. Here are the action steps that you can take regarding this information. One of the problems with increasing class sizes is that most American parents are concerned not only with their children's test scores, but also with their day to day experiences at school. Parents want their children to have meaningful personal relationships with their teachers, the sorts of life changing experiences that many of us remember fondly when we think back on our favorite teachers. Lowering class sizes is extremely popular and it would take a major public re education effort to convince most Americans that larger classes are better classes. Most parents in this country would probably not believe that larger classes are actually better classes. It's important to take note of your personal feelings about class size and your perceptions about its effects on your child's learning. It also might be helpful to reflect back on the size of classes that you were in during your school years and whether your learning was impacted in a negative way if classes were larger. Here are this episode's takeaways. One of the primary reasons behind raising class sizes is constrained budget conditions Research just hasn't indicated all of the benefits about class size reductions. One of the challenges for elected officials and educators is that there is no research in the United States that directly compares class size reductions to alternative investments. In other words, there's no direct comparison of the benefits of $20 billion worth of spending on keeping class sizes small versus $20 billion of spending on paying teachers more. Critics argue that most class size reduction programs are too general and improvements aren't substantial enough to balance the cost of shrinking class sizes, which is one of the most expensive education improvement strategies. As with many school improvement methods, the results from class size reduction efforts are mixed. While some researchers say that smaller classes produce increases in student achievement, others argue that once class sizes drop, teachers must be altering their practice for students to benefit. Regardless of the debate, many policymakers and the public favor class size reductions, especially in the early grades. The academic benefits of small classes must seem to be the greatest in kindergarten and first grade and then fall off in second and third grades. Reducing class sizes seems to have an overall positive effect on groups of students that usually trail behind in academic achievement. These are typically students of color and students from low income household. If this is the type of subject matter and discussion that resonates with you, please follow my podcast on whatever service you're listening to this. Also, I'd love to hear from you, so please leave me a rating, a review, or a comment on apple stitcher or podchaser. You can also rate my podcast@ratethispodcast.com if you like this podcast, the best way to support me and help me grow it is by leaving a review. This helps my rankings and entices other people to listen to the show and share this episode with anyone that you think would find it valuable. Be sure to tell your friends, family and community about my podcast. Additionally, connect with me on Instagram and Facebook with the handle kimjfields. Thanks for listening today. I hope you'll come back for more K12 educational discussions with with even more exciting topics to untangle. And be sure to stay tuned on the next episode. I'll be discussing navigating the school district. Until next time, aim to learn something new every day. Love my show. Consider being a regular subscriber. You can subscribe for as little as $3 per month. Just go to there's no contractual obligation. You can cancel at any time. 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