He Started Selling At 5 - Now He's A Sales Legend 101

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Welcome to this edition of the Million Dollar Mastermind podcast. This is where we pick the brains of high achievers from all walks of life and get their hard earned real world insights on winning. I'm your host, Larry Wydell. Hello everybody. We're talking to Doug C. Brown. Hello, Doug.

Hey Larry. Hello to you and thank you for having me here.

As everybody will find out, you're a big name in the sales world, but how did you get going in sales and entrepreneur running businesses and being something other than just an employee early in your life?

Well, it all started at the age of three. My dad actually had me in his business and he did that with every.

There's laws against that, isn't there?

Not back then.

Okay, maybe there were, but I. Charles Dickens. Okay.

So at age 3, I started sweeping floors for my father's business. He had a machinery repair and sales business and in the industrial equipment. And by age five and a half, we were actually brought fourth in front of clientele and we were actually taught how to sell over the counter selling electrical parts. It was a family business and my dad had it for, well, well over 18 years. And I don't know, maybe, you know, when I was a young kid it was, it was a lot, a lot of fun, a lot of experience. But I don't know, maybe he needed low cost labor. I have no idea. I never asked him. But I did learn how to communicate with people very early on. And what I loved was my grandmother used to go through and show me, we paid this for a part, you sold it for this, and here's our profit and here's your commission. So, so, you know, it was, it was something that was taught very early on. My mom also was a sales representative and very successful in the Avon business. And I used, used to travel with her as well. And we do the same thing. And I just loved figuring out what the commissions were at the end because even though I was young and I got a small part of it, I always had more money than I needed. And you know, I, I just kind of said, okay, well this is kind of a, a cool thing. I think I'll sort of continue.

Yeah. And so talk about your, your experiences. Something about you had a business when you were in high school.

Yeah, yeah, I had, I had several of them. So I was, I was always that kid that was like a serial entrepreneur at, at heart, if you will. So I was, I was always trying business in all kinds of different businesses and people thought I was a little unstable for a while because I Would try so many businesses, but we had. In, in high school, we actually started a body shop and I, we repaired cars and painted cars. My, my cousin had, you know, a garage and we had a garage at my dad's location and we made a pretty good living repairing auto body, you know, repairs and painting cars and, and doing all of that. I also had a, a music business during that time, which was essentially a band. And you know, I learned a lot in that business as well. Over, over my life, I've had over 35 businesses. Not all succeeded, but many of them, you know, broke even and did pretty well. And some were, you know, barn burners, which were really great. Yeah.

And so in the.

Were you looking.

You're constantly looking for the bigger opportunity, the bigger, more exciting thing. You just run your course like in the, you know, in the band business, selling, selling musical equipment and things like that. Did you kind of run your course and things like that? And then something else comes along. How does that work? How do you go?

Yeah, that's, that's kind of what happened was, you know, you as, as we grow in anything, we learn something and we say, okay, this is good, or you think it's going to be great when you get into it, then when you're into it for a while, it's, it's like, well, you know, I'm not enjoying this as much as I.

Right.

I would. Or my gosh, you know, I see this and this is a bigger opportunity, so I think I'll navigate toward that bigger opportunity. And that happened along the path. And you know, a couple of them, I was fortunate, they were small businesses, but I was able to kind of unload them to, you know, friends I had or partners I had at the time. And then I moved on to the next one.

Yeah. And it's a. You could speak to the importance of pursuing the opportunity that's in front of you that you have interest in. So you can either make something happen with it or get it out of your system.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, I definitely. And I did, I did do a lot of things that, like, even in the music business, I, I would have bands. I was a, you know, I had a DJ business. We had other DJs working with us. And eventually, you know, in that band business, for example, I got it out of my system because I was hanging around with a lot of very well known professional musicians and they were telling me, my gosh, we're going on tour for 300 days and we're going to be back in, you know, 300 days. And I was like, this is not for me. So.

Right.

You know, I got it out of my system at that point and then, you know, moved on to a different thing.

Yeah, you don't know the behind the curtain until you get behind the curtain of these things. And when you're looking at the curtain, the curtain could look fantastic in a lot of things.

Yeah, absolutely.

Like the country music business. My brother got to know and worked with Johnny Cash quite a bit.

And.

My brother worked with Tom Petty for 40 years. It was his right handed man. And so there's a period of time where they did some recording with Johnny and June Cash. They said they, they toured two, I don't know, for like 30, 40 years. They toured 250 nights a year on a bus.

Yes.

That's not a lie for everybody, is it?

No, no. And I, and frankly for me it wasn't going to be that life, you know. What happened was the band Boston actually told me their tour schedule, where they were going on, and that was like, I put two and two together and I'm like, know, I like all you guys, but I wouldn't want to hang on on a bus for 300 days straight, you know, that type of thing.

Well, also it tells you if you love it that much, you know, because the thing is like I've noticed with musicians, like when I, you know, I've learned how to play a bunch of instruments, I enjoy music and everything, but I don't love it like they do, you know, like I, I'll learn a chord or learn a sequence, learn a song and then, you know, it's kind of like on to the next one. But they'll like get a chord or a note on a new guitar that has a certain sound, G, open G. And they'll play that for like six weeks, you know, getting it in their head, you know. You know, they'll get a little, you know, a little chord sequence there and you know, play it over and over and over and over and over. And then of course they come up with great ideas from it. But they do that because they just really love it. I thought. I just didn't love it that much, you know.

Yeah, I mean I, what I loved about them and I would agree with you, you know, because I, I was a keyboard player and that was the, you know, beginning of synthesizers and things like that. So, you know, I used to play around with the sounds all the time, but it just, there's a reality to the business of the music business and that was not Something that I loved, I loved, still love music today, but I didn't love the business of being in that business. And, you know, I mean, I remember listening to Sammy Davis Jr. One time and they were talking about the Rat Pack and sometimes they didn't get paid by the people who ran the hotels in Las Vegas.

Yeah. So, yeah, they used to say that Chuck Berry would show up, you know, he play high schools, he play fairs, he played this. The first thing he'd do is, where's my thousand dollars? He'd show up with a, he'd show up with a car and he'd get the guitar case out of the trunk. He said, this case ain't open until I get my thousand dollars.

Well, there's, you know, there's a lot of parallels to, I find people who play music and people who are entrepreneurial or, you know, end up in selling for a living.

Sure.

Because it's still motivating and moving people. It's just in, in, you know, in helping people and inspiring people and solving problems and improving opportunities that they can have. So it's, you know, that's why we tend to go to the concerts. We want to feel differently and get involved and change our state. Right. And that can happen in selling and business as well. Yeah.

Now talk about what, what did you go to from the music business?

So I actually went from the music business. So when I was in the music business, I also was part time in the military at the same time. Uhhuh. And so once that kind of ended, so the Gulf War came up. I was right in that era. And once that ended, I was like, what am I gonna do with myself? Right. So I, I, well, I'll go back to school and get a degree because I'm supposed to have a degree to be successful. That was what was kind of taught to us. Right. So I, I got my degree, came out of that, worked in the hospital. I got degrees in biology and nuclear medicine. And while I was in the middle.

Of the hospital, why that? Why that? Well, I really, I know that wouldn't have been my first choice if I was just trying to get a degree.

So while I was going to, like, through my whole life's journey, if you will, I was always going to school in some capacity. I was always taking a class here, a class there, and I had enough credits to get into medical school and I was accepted into medical school. But during that time, that's when the Gulf War came up. And then, so it derailed the whole process. And then when I got Out. I had a year to wait to get back into medical school. And I was at my college that I got my undergrad degrees in. And when I was walking by, one of the doctors said, what are you going to do? I said, well, I'm going to be having to wait a year. He said, why don't you go into nuclear medicine? And I'm like, well, what's that? He told me, I'm like, I don't know. I still got to wait. Now, this was in August and school started in the beginning of September then. And I said, I can't get in anyways. And he said, well, here, come into my office. And I did. And he said, sign this form. And I said, well, what is it? He goes, you've known me for six years. Just sign the form. And I signed the form. And I said, okay, here's the form. And he reached his hand out and he said, welcome to the nuclear medicine department. You start in two weeks. Right. And so that's how I ended up in the, in getting the degree in nuclear medicine.

Huh?

Because I didn't have to wait a year.

Yeah. And so you get, you, you're in school what, four years, something like that.

I was in. Yeah. So I had, I had been in school for part time at that point, about eight, seven, eight years. Part time.

Yeah.

And I, and I, I had one degree in biology in biology and then a minor in business. But, you know, I, I just couldn't really find a job that would pay more than I was making. Selling music equipment. Yeah.

So you kept the music, you kept the selling music equipment going. Did you have a store, did you do it online or.

Yeah, no, I did it, I did it out of someone else's company. So I was a sales. We weren't called salespeople, but we, we were selling. And I was selling music equipment to lots of nice fun bands like, you know, not Johnny Cash. I wish I hadn't been able to meet Johnny, but you know, like Aerosmith and the Eagles and Billy Joel's band and things like that. So that I was, I was on a level where I was dealing with high end musicians as well as people who are trying to be high end musicians. And what happened was I realized when I was in the hospital with nuclear medicine, I passed my exams and I got my license and all that. And one day they, they were having an inspection and everybody was afraid in the hospital, like, oh my gosh, you know, the managers were coming around and I was like, man, this is kind of like a business Right. I didn't get. I got in this to kind of help people not to.

Right.

Get involved in that. And then, I don't know, I was walking along and I was like, I'm making more money selling music equipment than I was in this hospital setting.

Right.

Maybe. Maybe I should try this thing called sales for a living.

Yeah.

And that's what I did.

I see. Now, where were you at this point in time? Where in the country?

I was actually in Massachusetts.

Ah, okay.

So I grew up in Newburyport, Massachusetts, and. And I was at a hospital called Beverly Hospital and Addison Gilbert Hospital in Gloucester, Massachusetts.

Well, as we've talked already, bands are always on the move. And so there's always a new band coming through town. I guess you. You know, there's always. And I know the. The people in the Petty band, they always like to go and check out the guitar stores if they got any free time in town. So I guess that's a natural thing to see the roving musicians, and if you have good stuff and can talk the language and they like you to keep the trade going. But a lot of us, and I think you, too, want to do something great with our lives, something big, something we want to get in a situation that's unlimited. And I wonder if some of that was behind what you were looking for, that part of what you were looking.

For in the music business. For sure. And then after, you know, it's been something I've always looked for. So it's absolutely a fact that in the music business, I wanted to be a professional musician. I wanted to be able to play arenas and go out and influence people.

Yeah.

And.

But, you know, the thing about all that is that, you know, you're looking at a career, something you can keep on going. And in that world, you got to continue to play arenas.

Right.

You know, I'm sure you and I both know guys that have been in that arena, that world, and they played like 50 arenas. But now that world, somehow they got out of it, you know, like.

Right.

There's. There's lots of people at town that you run to in. In pretty much any town that have played stadiums, this, that the other, you know, I play drums with, you know, Bon Jovi or whoever, you know, Metallica. Not Metallica, but their drummer's not going away. But anyway, the thing is, you'd like to get into something where you can continue on the rest of your life, because in anything, you. If you keep doing it, you keep learning, and you probably find the same things happening to you in Sales?

Oh, absolutely, without question. I mean sales is, over the years it's, it's changed, you know, even to today it's changed. Right. So I mean, 20 years ago it was a very different sales process than it is today. And if somebody's still doing what they did 20 years ago, they're not going to, they're not going to do as well as they should.

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For me, yeah, so it was as soon as I got out of the hospital and I went into my first job. I sold telecommunication services and I had a little bit of, tiny bit of background in telecommunications in the wireless business prior to, So I, I was an age, you know, one of my side businesses, I had an agency selling telecommunications. But it was on a very small level and it was great because it was recurring income. Right? You could sign up an agreement for like three years and you get paid for three years. It was, it was a, you know, a nice, nice paycheck. However, when I went, I was like, what am I going to do for sales? Like I, I, I've been in the machinery business, I've been in different businesses, but I never really was in a formalized sales job. And I wouldn't, I wouldn't say the, the music business selling, you know, was really a formalized sales job. I mean you went in there and got in at 10am, got out at 9am with other clubs and partied and did all that stuff. But when I, when I started in, out of the hospital I was like, I want a family and I want to kind of, you know, have children and this type of thing. So I'm like, I got to get into something a little bit more robust, something that has a career path at that point, not realizing I was still, you know, destined to continue to be an entrepreneur. But I was trying the route of, of doing the corporate thing at that point. And so I.

You were looking for, you were looking for stability.

That's exactly what I was looking for. And you know, because when, when we're an entrepreneur, we have to make our own. And then selling, you have to make your own, but you still have a support system that you don't have necessarily when you're on your own. Right. In a corporate environment, in selling, you have human resources departments, you have operations, you have, you know, commissions, people. You don't have to hire all these people. Right, right. So I went into that and frankly I, I went into the interview and they asked me questions and I answered the questions and they liked, you know, who I was, but frankly, I didn't know what they were selling. I mean, I, I, I sort of like read up on it to converse enough. And then they offered me the job on the spot. And when I did, I was like, well, I got to learn what we're doing here. We're selling digital circuits of certain types. So, yeah, I, I ordered three telecommunications engineering books and overnighted them to myself and read them over a weekend. But that was probably one of the best things I ever did because I learned to think like a sales engineer as well as, you know, all the technical people in the companies that I was now selling to. Right. And within my first year, I became the number one rep in the company.

Really? Yeah, yeah. So, so, but how did, how fast did you become successful?

Well, my first month I blew out quota for forex. So what I realized was, and this is some of the things that I even teach today is if we want to make money in anything, we want to create leverage.

Yeah.

So I started asking myself a question. Like, all these people were making phone calls, cold calls, and it was like one to one. And I was like, how can I not do that? Like, I don't mind making cold calls, but how do I get more bang for my one to one to get to one to many. So then I was like, okay, there are people who actually service the people that I actually am looking for to sell my telephone services to. We saw local long distance data, things like that. Who are those people? And so one of them was, you know, companies who sold phone systems. And so when a company buys a phone system from a phone Vendor, what they called them back then, they usually stay with them for years, like sometimes 10, 15 years. So there's a lot of trust built in between that relationship. So I went to the phone vendors and I said, hey, I can help you sell more phone systems by looking at your clients bills, reducing their bills, and then we'll use that savings to actually generate another phone system sale because they can lease the phone system. I'll get them more money. We'll give them positive cash flow. You'll win, they'll win. I'll win as well. Are you interested in a relationship? Yeah. And that's what I did. And I ended up going out, and in my first couple of months, I had nine people that said yes to me. And so they started taking me around to their client base. And then what was happening is my team was nine people, and I was out selling my whole team combined in my second and third month out of the gate. So then I was like, well, let's double down on this. So I went out and got 18.

Yeah.

And so on and so on.

And so did you lose interest in this thing or. You obviously kept moving on.

Yeah. So what happened was I did really well there.

Let me guess, Doug. What usually happens is the corporations begin the tried and true method of. Since most corporations are run by accountants and lawyers and have never sold anything and have absolutely no respect for a salesperson, when they see someone go in and balloon up like that, what they say is not what a star we've got. We've got to take care of him, you know, get a limo, pick him up at his house, bring him to work, give him, you know, pampering, sending flowers every week. No, what they say is we're paying him too much. Let's cut his commission. And so I'm guessing somewhere along the way, you've been through that process too.

Yeah, and that's unfortunate. It took about two years before they. They started playing that. And what happened was, because it was more of a startup environment, even though we were a company, we were at $58 million. We grew from $58 million to $362 million in two years. Yeah, that was a really big growth path. And I was now.

And let's say. And let's say this growth is driven by sales. So you got to take a little credit, a little credit for that one way or the other, you know?

Well, and that's what was happening. So as I started building out my network, I started not only with phone vendors, but data companies, wiring companies, engineering Companies, and they were bringing me into, to your point, they were bringing me into these super huge deals.

Yeah.

So they were bringing me into what would be considered a national account.

Right.

And so now when I'm going into national accounts or wholesale accounts, because now I'm selling deals that are hundreds of thousands of dollars. And that was a national, you know, bigger deal back then. Then that created this internal competition. And what happened was they wanted to move one of my deals to wholesale and not pay me on it.

And that made perfect sense to them.

Yeah.

I'm sure they were shocked that you weren't excited about this great idea.

Yeah, I definitely wasn't shocked to the point where I knew who the CEO was and we had a conversation and. And then I brought them Chicago, o' Hara Airport, three or four other airports, you know, big engineering companies, all kinds of things were happening. Some of these companies were coming to this company and saying, hey, we'll build stadiums in your company's name if we can do these deals. And so now I'm. I'm just a major account executive now, sitting on the executive board with everybody. Right. That wasn't, that wasn't playing well with the political play internally.

Correct. Yeah. Who's this guy.

Now? The CEO loved me. Don't get me wrong.

You know, he was the CEO.

Love you.

Yeah. But the thing is, you're dealing with employees, never made a sale. And so, you know, you're. You're different fish. You know, it's different. Different thought processes, different ways of looking at everything. And so one thing, we should take a time out now and say to people on the way up who are considering getting. It's not a bad thing to go to work with a company and look for stability for a while in your life and get your income ratcheted up and get some savings, go through a 1, 2, 3, 4 year period of time to where especially you get a chance to learn sales. If you've never had a chance to learn sales, and there are companies out there that, unlike the one sounds like, unlike the one you were at, have extensive really good sales programs and you can go in, subject yourself to that for a while, learn, get to where you make some substantial money, prove to yourself you can do this thing and then you can launch your own thing down the road. But it's not a bad thing necessarily to go to work for a big corporation in the sales capacity. Just be aware what's coming. The more successful you are, the faster it's going to come that somebody's going to Eyeball your contract and say too much money going to that guy and either cut territory or cut commission and quotas every year are raised and all that to hit bonuses. And so that's not a reason to stay away from it. It's just go in with your eyes open that that's probably what's going to happen down the road. Be thinking all along about what your next step would be. But while you're there, you can get some really valuable. You can really make that pay off for yourself, can't you?

Yeah. And that's what happened. Right. So I gained this experience, I gained these relationships. I was able to use their capital because all of the expenses that were going on within my, I had a, you know, expense account, a car allowance, I had all of that stuff. So I was using their leverage.

Yeah.

And I was learning along the way in developing relationships. And it just got to a point where they knew and I knew because they were, they were, they were trying to promote me at that point. They were like, hey, why don't you come into management? Why don't you go into this? Why don't you go into that? I knew I didn't want to climb the career ladder because I didn't want to be in that environment you're talking about, Larry.

Yeah.

So, you know, and I think, you know, rule number one for people, if they want to be in the top 1% of earners or they, you know, through selling or they want to have a more happy life, understand what makes you happy and what doesn't and live by those values. Right. Because when we learn how to sell, we can sell pretty much anywhere. And I knew that because I had been in so many different industries prior to, because I started lots of businesses. So what I decided to do is use my, my knowledge from what I was doing. And I said the agents externally are making more money than I am now. They don't have the security, but I have all these relationships. Why don't I go start an agency? And, and that's what I did. And we built that into a million dollars in the first 15 months. You know, of it's an 8.

What kind of agency now?

It was a telecommunications consulting. So what we would do is consulting and we had back end services in the, in the business. And when I said we was a tiny little company, it was myself and two other, you know, well, three other partners in, in the beginning. And then the partners all left. So it was me and then a couple of employees. But you know, we, we, we got it to A seven figure level almost within the first year. And then it was kind of like, okay, we have stability and that, and that's where I think people make mistakes. Right. They, they don't let their company or their, their career get stable first. And that's what I did in the corporation. So again, I agree with you. There's no shame in going and working for a company if you want to be an entrepreneur, because you can work part time on your entrepreneurial assets, bring that up to a place where it's competing with your internal job. And now you jump from a place of stability versus a place of, oh no, I'm not making any money. And you know, because it always takes two or three times longer than we figure and it costs two or three times more than we figure.

And that's an interesting principle that needs to be, you know, reinforced and people need to be reminded of repeatedly. And that is when you're going through a change, do not give up your strength. And this leap into the unknown, you know, there's ways of get making those steps into the unknown without stepping off the foundation that you've already got. And a lot of people make impulsive decisions and go against, sometimes they pull it off, but the odds are really against you. And think of it this way, if you work that long to get some stability and a foundation under your feet, you don't want to just toss that out the window. That's a big investment of your time, energy and effort. But you can use that, what was the word they started off with? Leverage. And use that to leverage your next move and do it in a thoughtful, planned type way so that you can maximize your odds of success. The whole idea is once you decide you want to do something on your own, break away what you want to do. The next thing is do things that will increase your odds of success once you do make that jump.

Yeah. And there's always the business of the actual industry, so there's industry knowledge or whatever that people can gain. There's also the business of growing a business. Right. And those two things sometimes are fundamentally different.

Yeah.

And, and so if somebody doesn't know how to build a business, I always will recommend that they go and learn how to build a business before they jump from their security.

And how would you recommend they do that? How would you recommend they do that based off, you know, going through so many of these startups yourself?

So a, there's lots of people out there that will talk to them about what they've gone through. I mean, certainly listening to Your podcast. Right. Is another way of learning. So there's, there's resources out there that are, are relatively free. There's, you know, there's a, you know, one of my mentors once taught me, he said, like, if you had no money, there's no reason you can't get knowledge because there's something called a library that's full of literary works of people who have already done what you want to do, and you just can go access their knowledge by reading their book. You know, with, with today, there's all kinds of resources, digital resources, there's training. Like, you know, if somebody wants to, if you don't mind me shamelessly plugging what I do, you know, there's, there's, if somebody wants to learn how to sell, think, act, and be in the top earners, brackets of thought or even, you know, reality, then somebody like our company could teach somebody to do that. Because we do this every single day of the week. Right. So if somebody wants to learn how to build a, a business business, then there's plenty of resources out there. No, they might have to pay something to do that. But I would advise them to certainly start with free resources, and then as they get some cash, they can then be very clear. But with one caveat, Larry. Know what they want.

Correct.

Because there's too many training companies out there today who frankly, have never built businesses in their life, but a training business. And too many people are spending way too much money, in my opinion, on courses and things because they don't understand where they want to go. So they think this will work and that will work, et cetera, et cetera. So the pathway to clarity is knowing our endpoint.

Absolutely. You could say that again if you'd like.

Sure. Our pathway to clarity is knowing our endpoint and pointing our nose in that direction and taking one step a day, every day toward that end point, knowing that's what it is. What that, what does that mean a little. Can I expand upon that, Larry? Would that be Absolutely.

Absolutely.

So that means know what you want for working conditions and how much money you want to bring in. You know, what, what do you want to do in your life? Build your life first, build your business around your life, because if you do it the other way around, then you're a slave to your own, your own business. And, and the business is going to have demands like people may have never thought of. So this is. Those are the people that are working all the time and don't have a personal life.

Yeah. Well, the thing is that one of the signs of someone who is really, at their core, an entrepreneur is someone who does not want to be put in a box. And you saw that in the music business. You saw that in working in a corporation. You've seen that along the way. And I think we fight to be free. Entrepreneurs are people who fight to be free and are willing to fight to overcome the barriers to entry and the resistance to make the transition, because they don't want to be in a box. They want more out of life. They feel like what they don't know, they can learn. And so that's a way of looking at yourself and being honest with yourself. Like with me, I didn't like music enough to sit there and play the same song every night. Traveling around the country in a bus or even a plane. And, you know, I'll never forget James Taylor one night, I mean, at one concert, he was saying, you know, now we're getting ready to play a song. You know, I haven't. We just don't play it that often. And, you know, but, you know, I was thinking about it today, and I figured, you know, it'd be perfect for tonight. And he went on and on about how rare it was for them to play this song. And then he said, in fact, we haven't even played this song since last night. He was obvious. He was obviously stringing them along and giving the band a break while he just chattered a little while. And so the thing is that I don't love it that much. And so the thing is, maybe people don't mind being in a box, you know, working for a corporation or being restricted on income or, you know, who they work with and things like that. You know, maybe they don't mind it enough to fight to get their own freedom, you know, and bigger opportunity and all. So you've got to be honest with yourself. But what I'd like you to do is you're obviously sold on sales as a profession, sales as a skill, sales as something to master. So I'd like you to sell sales to people right now. Why is it important to be good or great in sales? How is that a benefit for everybody?

It depends on their outcome, but it's a benefit for everyone because each day they are selling, you're selling no matter what. If we're alive, we're selling now. What does that mean? Well, sales is nothing more than communications between one or more people. In other words, 1. We're selling ourselves all the time. Yeah, right. Like, man, should I go to the gym today? I know I'm supposed to go to the gym today, but I, you know, I don't really feel like it. You know, there's a movie on television or, you know, my significant other. I want to spend time or I have my kids or whatever. And so we're selling. That's selling, folks, where it's communication on a level where we're trying to have an end to something, solve a problem, create a better opportunity for a future. Now, if you're in a significant relationship or any relationship, you are selling. You're selling on that relationship value every single day. If you're in work and you are in operations, you're selling, you know, you're selling your worth in the job every single day. If you're in a position that you wouldn't think was be sales like a. I don't know, and a doctor, yeah, you're selling. You're selling whether or not your patients are going to come back. You're selling to the administration, maybe the hospital that you're affiliated with. It's all relationship building, and it always has been. So that's the reason to understand sales, because we're communicating, and the more we can communicate and the more efficiently and the better we communicate that the easier and more happy we will be because we'll have less contention in our lives. We'll have less stress in our life. And then sales, also, when it's done right, there's a goal attached to that, and that goal is attached to how do we want to live our life and what kind of money do we support ourselves in doing that. And I've never found most people in sales, Larry, maybe a couple that ever said to me, you know what? I want to be less than comfortable. They all say, I want to be a little more than comfortable and be able to buy some luxury stuff without guilt.

Yeah, right, right. Everybody or I want to be able.

To do this for my children. I want to be able to send them to private school. I want to give them opportunities. Like for me in my life, I wanted my children to be able to travel at a very young age and be around entrepreneurs because I wanted them to get that thought and I wanted them to go knock on the. The. The iron of, you know, the Eiffel Tower and realize it's just the steel structure versus something in a book.

Yeah.

So. So I was selling myself on I've got to go out and make more money in order to have this ability to have this lifestyle. And so I was selling myself. So the more we can sell and the More we can leverage, the easier things are. So that's why I believe everybody should be in sales. And there's no way to make more money than in selling.

Early on, coming out of college, I heard, I, you know, I don't know how accurate it was, but it's gotta be close that 85% of the people who make in the top income, however you wanna figure the top income, top earners, the elite income earners, 85% of them are in sales, and the other 15% are the professional people who went to school for 15, 20 years or they're the top 1% of 1%. Actors and athletes and famous superstars like that. But most of them, you want to make above average income, you got to be in sales. And if you're, you're selling all the time, if you got your own business, if you're an entrepreneur, you gotta sell. That's the first thing you gotta do. You gotta sell yourself to launch out and do it and do the things the activity needs to be done and sell, sell your idea to people. And so sales is a, sales is the root of a whole lot of good things that can happen to you in your life.

I'm in full agreement. And the other thing about selling is it can change other people's lives. Because part of the reason I teach is because I have seen the transformation with people in their lives.

Tell me one of those stories that just jumps in your mind right now, one of the most enjoyable for you.

Oh, there's, there's a lot of them. I, I think the, one of the.

I'm putting you on the spot. This is kind of like saying, what's your favorite Beetle Song? Or something like that.

Yeah, yeah. Like I was trying to think of some of them. Well, here's an example. This one, I might cry a little bit on this. So this one. All right, so I've done a lot in the, in the, in the training world and help training companies. Yeah. Big names. Tony Robbins and people like that and his companies.

Now what are you, what are you doing there?

I actually was an independent president of training and sales for Tony and a man named Chet Holmes for seven years. Really? Yeah.

And how do you interview for that job?

I helped another man named J. Conrad Levinson, who wrote a book series called Guerrilla Marketing.

Ah, okay.

And I helped Jay, Jay introduced me to Chet. This is how I learned how to be a business coach. I, I, I, I asked Chad if, if I could maybe I, I took his course. Yeah. And I, I, I doubled the sales of my Company using some of his stuff. I said, hey, I believe in what you do. I have all this experience. Could I maybe give a shot being a coach? And for all of you who are coaches, consultants, or anybody listening that wants to be in that type of business, your number one job in that is client acquisition.

Yeah.

And so I knew how to sell. So when I came in there, I went into Chad's company as an independent and I quickly became his number one sales producing coach. Right. So in my first four months, I was selling $65,000 a month in coaching. And, you know, it caught his attention very quickly. And so what ended up happening was he asked me what I was doing and I told him and he said, would you train my sales team? Would you train my coaches? Would you train this? And so I did. And then their numbers just started rising. And so then he's like, hey, will you train my presenting team? And right along that time, a man named Tony Robbins came in and bought in on the company.

Yeah.

And so, so I trained theirs and I took their, their presenters team. They were closing at 17.8% and four months later they were closing at 43.2%. Wow. And. And so that got Tony's eyebrows up and Chad's, you know, attention, and that generated literally tens of millions of dollars in sales. And so they're like, why don't you take this division and why don't you take that division? And I did. And I went through the whole company.

Yeah.

Eventually I said, you know, why don't you work with the CEO of the company, become president of training and sales for this company and then we'll bring you into other divisions. That's how it all kind of started.

Huh. But then you left that. I mean, this is not tied in with that, right?

No, no, no, no. I actually had an independent client who was doing extremely well, and he wanted to build a commission only sales team. So I helped his company build a commission only sales team and they paid me handsomely to do it. But always I always, when I build teams, I always get on the phones or I always get over the live events and I sell.

Yeah.

Because I want to know what's going on so that when the teams come back and say this or that, I can say, that's not happening, this is happening, or this, you know, So I was on a phone with a person. Well, we did a web presentation and then I asked if I could speak to this person by phone afterwards. And I got on the phone and this gentleman was giving me every reason why he couldn't do this, like. And I knew in my. My. My heart. Well, it was a training program that I felt in my heart of hearts, this was exactly what this gentleman needed. And so I always live by the moral obligation that if you know what you have will change somebody's life, and that could be whatever you're selling, could be construction equipment, whatever it is, that we have a moral obligation to kind of go 27 mental rounds with that person if need be, in order to get them to acquire it. Not to manipulate them, but playing in a win. Win, Right. And so what I did was that. And he finally acquiesced at the end and said, you know what? You seem to believe in me more than I believe in myself. And I said, I can tell you I believe in you, and I believe if you do this, you will have positive results. I forgot all about it. We went on our way, and he sent. So when I was managing this division, I read through all of the testimonials that come through in all the letters, and an email came in, and it was titled, I'm not trying to be crass, but this was the title of the email. Thank God someone had the balls enough to talk to me the way they did. Ah, well, that was an outstanding headline that caught my attention right there.

Right.

And so it went on and I started reading and said, thank God that somebody had the backbone to actually do what they did. Because I gave the. The. The person a really hard time. I gave him every objection in the planet. They wouldn't. They wouldn't back off. What I didn't tell them at that time is my business was falling apart. My business partner and I were leaving one another. My wife and I were having trouble. We were talking divorce. My kids were starting to get estranged from me. And in that process, he said, thank God Doug Brown had the, you know, backbone to actually help me, because this is what's happened in four months. The business has now turned profitable. My wife and I are back together. My kids and I are back together. And he just went on and on and on and on. And, you know, I mean, how much better can we be in life, right? To influence somebody? And, you know, you know that that relationship now is translating into his children and maybe his grandchildren and so on and friends, et cetera, et cetera.

Yeah. And you do have to trust your instincts. And this reinforces the idea. The great ideas don't care who use them, but you can't use them until they're in your head. And usually someone has to Be explaining them to you. And how did, what did he do to sign up for a audio course, video course? Did he get it?

It was a coaching course. It was a coaching course that he went into.

And it's a coaching course. Like what?

Business training? It was a business training and coaching course. So it was about how to grow his revenue and grow his, his lead.

But it was, was it a conference type thing? Was it one on one? Was it a, you know, we did.

It, we did it in a web web conference type process. And then from there, you know, he was just so reluctant that. But I could tell there was something up. I just didn't know. But, you know, and I've done that several times with people. I have people, you know, sometimes I had people come up at a live event. I was at one time and this guy came up and hugged me and then his wife hugged me and his two little kids hugged me. And I'm like, oh, who is this? I couldn't remember who they were. I talked to him on the phone and he said, you don't remember my voice, do you? And I said, no. And he told me the story, and it was a very similar story. And he said, look, you saved my life. And I mean, that's, that's a pretty tall compliment.

Yeah.

And so, you know, what do you find?

You know, we call those professional. You know, you, ideally, if you're trying to design your life and the payoffs you're going to get from your business, it's like you have financial goals, but then you have professional goals in terms of making a difference in other people's lives. You know, it's like, what are you doing other than just making money? You know, what are you doing to make a difference in the world? And that's in the area of professional satisfaction and payoff. And what did. It's worthwhile to mention to people right now that when you're in sales, you'll run into this frequently where you know the client, you know their situation, you know you've got the solution. It's a no brainer. It's a no brainer. They should do it, but they won't do it. And what I'll tell you, almost 100% of the time, and you did the right thing, you gave it your best shot and then you went away and forgot about it and left it with him. And that's all you can do. That's the right way to do it. Because what I've found, Doug, is that not always, but often down the road, you Find out the real reason they didn't do business with you. Because what you thought was the curtain you were looking at was the pretty picture. And there were things going on behind that curtain that they were too embarrassed to reveal. And that's why even if you made the sale, you know, it would have fallen apart. But a lot of times. So don't take it so hard that you'll run into those situations sometimes, but you'll find out, give it your best shot, and then move along. And if it's something they can work out, they'll wind up doing business with you anyway.

Yeah. And, you know, the thing is, I call that the real it. Right. That's how I coined it. Right. You got to find the real it. What is it? And firstly, people who are selling, please understand, you're not going to close 100%.

Yeah.

And if you are closing 100% or even 80%, you do not have enough prospects that you're talking to. That's. That's really the goal, Right?

Yeah.

So in most cases, that's the case, but there's always a business return on investment and a personal return on investment. And what I found, Larry, is in most cases where that happens, people haven't defined what the personal return on investment is for that person.

Yeah.

And so what ends up happening is they sell the business case. But what they don't realize is they can't make the decision because it's a consensus buy. Right. They're afraid. Or they're afraid if they make the decision and this thing goes bad, then they're a public, you know, board has the board.

Correct.

And they might get tossed out of their job. Or, you know, if they get tossed out of their job, their marriage isn't going that well, so now they might lose that. I mean, there's a lot of things that people don't take into consideration. You know, I had in my. In my telecommunications auditing company, I found somebody who they just had a contract done with AT&T. They were talking to me and I looked at their numbers and I said, losing a half million dollars a year. And if you want, I can go back to AT&T right now and negotiate that half million dollars back in your pocket. I can guarantee I can do it because there was a clause in all agreements back then. You had 30 days. So I can go back and negotiate it. And I want a percentage of the savings. Right. I'll take 20%, you keep 400, I'll keep 100. And do you know, three years later, they were still on that contract. And the reason behind it is I missed the personal roi. The personal ROI is I was talking to a telecommunications manager and he was more concerned about having him being embarrassed that he missed a half million dollar mistake than going to the CEO and saying, hey, boss, I thought maybe I did really well and I did. But I wanted to take that extra step, right? I did. And I brought this professional in and I found out that we even could save a half million dollars more. He would have been better off doing that, frankly. But he wasn't going to because it wasn't his money, right. It was. He was in a corporation. And so, yeah, I missed the personal ROI on that sale. And you know, I want people to understand even, even if we're professionals in this, we don't always get it right 100% of the time where he.

All you can do is put the odds in your favor. Now, let me, I'm going to put one to you here. Let's just say there's 10 guys like the example you told me where the guy got into the coaching and things turned around dramatically in a relatively short period of time, and he was grateful. And let's just take 10 guys like that, okay? Now, what would you imagine is the biggest changes those 10 people would knee out of 10, what would be the biggest change? Because that's how you turn things around. You make changes. And a lot of times it has to do with the problem is the main guy and he's too much of a hardhead or bully or narcissist or whatever. And then he realized I got to change my bully ways or something like that. What would you say you imagine you found from your, your coaching is the biggest turnaround point for people in that situation.

So let me just ask the question and, and back to you. Are you asking what is the turnaround point that got them to the change or from the change, the turnaround point.

That they, what they, what they wound up changing, what they wound up doing different. Yeah.

That one is almost universal across the board.

So I thought it might. Yeah.

So I've never encountered, well, maybe twice out of my whole career encountered a business problem that is actually a business problem.

Thank you.

Usually a human. Thank you. Yeah. All right. That is causing the problem. Now, we don't solve problems by finding solutions to the problem.

Right.

Find solutions to the problem by removing the cause of what is causing the actual problem.

Yeah.

So if people are listening and they're saying, my gosh, you know, I want to solve an objection, for example, I Want to find the cause of the objection, not the objection itself, because that's not you usually what it is.

Yeah.

So them coming to a realization and into admitting their own self truth, that is the biggest change that I've ever seen of people because most people are, are altering themselves. And so what they're doing is they're finger pointing, blaming, judging, you know, deflecting. You know, I used to have a friend of mine, he's like, man, my clients, they're like Teflon. They won't, you know, it's like, just slips off them. Right. So I, when they come to the truth, what ends up happening is they become, they become far more peaceful and their self confidence and self value, self worth goes up. When that happens, they change their behavior. Right?

Well, the. On the outside looking in, you see a guy, he's having problems with his business, he's having problems with his team at the business, he's having problems with his wife at home, he's having problems with his kids. There's only one person interfacing with all of these groups. I wonder where the problem is. But when you're in your monomaniac on a mission, working around the clock to build a business, a lot of times you just get lost in the trees, you know, and it's hard to, you know, you have to be insistent, you have to drive yourself so hard and then sometimes you, you know, lose your perspective. But it's good to get in these different environments to where you can admit it to yourself. Because if you know you're putting in the spotlight, you're being blamed for it, you're never going to give in. But if you get create a situation where there's a group, there's a setting to where people can hear these things, but then they can decide on their own. That's one thing about this podcast, is we cover these issues and create an environment where somebody who's listening to this can say, with nobody knowing other than them, that's me they're talking about, I need to take a look at what I'm doing. And so whatever the environment is a coaching thing, a webinar, you know, a small group, whatever, that allows them to realize things, hear things, have it sink in, and then go through the changes themselves. But of course, you got to reach the point where you want to change. You know, you're like not happy the way, you know, because you've had success and it's miserable. It's too toxic, you know, I don't want toxic success, you know, I want Happy success. So.

Yeah, I think. I think it's. It's. There's. It's a commitment.

Yeah.

Right. So it's a. There's the want and then there's the. Are you committed to the want? Because if we're not committed, it's just. I kind of want that. Right. Like, you know, and a lot of people, they oversell themselves or undersell themselves on what they can achieve.

Yeah.

So they oversell themselves on what they can do in a short period of time, and they way undersell themselves on what they can do over a few year period.

Yeah.

And if we're not committed, we will give. We give up, really, as human beings. That's what I found, that people just go, you know, but if you truthfully want something, you know, like, we all experience this. I bet with a child who's just determined to get something because they truly want it, they're. They're unrelentless. They're just. Or relentless, I should say.

Yeah.

And. And they will keep going. I think the big challenge that people have in their. In their business or even in selling is they tie their identity to their success. Yep. Right. And when they do that, then things just get out of skew. I had a. I had a client one time, I had to tell him, I mean, he was doing 50 million and he wanted to grow to a hundred. And I said, not going to happen. He goes, why? I said, you got an 82% turnover of your employee base every year. And he said, well, why do you think that? I said, because you're. It's you. And so. And we fixed that problem. And he did grow. He grew from 50 million to 110 million. But the reality is that we had to remove the cause of the problem. And the cause was how he grew up. And we had to kind of reframe some of that stuff.

Another point to make for people is you're not going to make every sale. And in line with what you said, you can't tie your identity to your results because nobody wins. There's no coach in any sport that wins all the games every year. And you look at what Belichick went through here the last few years, and now he's out on the streets and he couldn't even get a job this year. He interviewed for like three or four jobs. Not only lost, lost his main job, he couldn't even get another job yet. I mean, I'm sure he will if he, you know, from one year to the next. But the point is, don't you Know, things go up, things go down, and, you know, you. You do what you can and you fight for it. And if you do the, the right things over the long haul, you're going to win more than you lose. But when things you get, reversals don't fall apart. You're there. It's not written that you were entitled to have 100% success growth in your business. You know, we fight for growth 100% of the time. We don't always get growth 100% time.

Well, and to that point, Larry, if we look at some of the greatest people out there that people deem as successful.

Yeah.

I mean, Celine Dion, one of the great, hailed her as a great singer.

Right.

And she had challenges with her throat. Right. Because she was. I assumed she wasn't breathing correctly. I don't know that to be the case. But, you know, we have people who rise to the top and then get knocked down for whatever reason, health reasons or personal reasons or whatever. It's life. So. But I, I would, I would acknowledge your point by saying if you're said no to in selling, you don't have to fall apart. No. No. And. And don't be afraid of the buyer, because no buyer that I know of has ever tossed somebody out of a high window, you know, for, you know. Right. You approaching and asking for the sale. So just ask, because you never know unless you ask.

You're gonna say no today, may say no to, I mean, yes tomorrow. So, you know, leave it on a happy note. Keep the door open and move on, you know. And so anyway, thanks so much for your time, Doug. And how long you been doing your coaching?

Well, I've been now my daughter. 25 years.

25. That you on your own, doing your own.

Yeah.

Tony Robbins. And after all of that and everything.

Yeah. 25 years. Well, you know, are you about to.

Get the hang of it?

I don't know if I'll ever get it perfect, but I, you know, that's, that's the other thing I tell people is perfection's not needed. You know, forward progress and success is needed. And so, you know, I mean, there was a time, Larry, where I had a full head of hair. I don't anymore. Right. So.

I always let my guests have the final word. And so do you have a final parting word you'd like to give everybody as we move forward? And by the way, your podcast is called CEO Sales Strategies, where you interview CEOs with $5 million plus companies and talk about their strategies and sales strategies and growth strategies and so look for that on the podcast menu.

Yeah, and thanks for letting me have the last word in that regard, because I think this is really important for people if they're going to be an entrepreneur or they're going to enter into sales, which is an entrepreneurial job, really, where, you know, you can. In some cases, they don't have a capped compensation plan. And you can, you know, you can. You can go and do quite well. I think the biggest challenge for people is not understanding why they're actually building the business in the first place. And, you know, you can build a business to stake your ground and say, this is my turf. You know, that that's. That's one place you can build it for money, and you can also build it for time freedom. And you can have a combination of all of those three. And I. I would. I would not, not challenge, but implore people to before they're going forth in this, to sit down and get clear on why they're doing it. Because, you know, at my stage in life, for now, it's no longer about putting a stake in the ground. It's about having time freedom in the. In the additional funds to do it.

Yeah.

You know, but I'm 62 years old now. Right. Back when I was 30, it was to put a stake in the ground and make money.

Sure.

So. So I would. I would encourage people because entrepreneurship is an amazing thing to have, but the business doesn't care how stressed out we are, and it doesn't care how great we do. The business just wants to be fed. Money in, money out, equals something. And so it's our job to actually take control of our personal life and, and. And guide it to where we want and have the business support that.

That's a great point and not brought out enough. So thank you for. For covering that and thank you for your time, Doug. It's been a lot of fun.

Hey, thank you, Larry. I really am grateful that I'm here and appreciative. Bye.

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