How to Build a $3.5B Enterprise (And Survive Every Tech Crash) | Dejan Nenov

You have to take risks. You have to commit. As you mature a little bit, you also have to realize that you are taking a risk and there's no guarantees. You will win some and lose some, and you need staying power and commitment and kind of a damn the torpedoes attitude.

Welcome to Big Hitters. I'm Larry Weidel, and this show is for people who are done playing small. Each week we break down what it actually takes to win at a high level, the decisions, the discipline, the adjustments that separate those who almost do it from those who do it. No theory, no fluff, just straight talk from someone who spent 50 years building winners. If you're serious about momentum, you're in the right place. Let's get into it. Hello everybody. Let's have some fun talking about winning to somebody who knows how to do it big, and that is Dayan Nenov. Hello, Dayan.

Hello, Larry. Thank you for having me on the show.

I appreciate you being on because We talk about winning here and your focus, what you have not only learned about winning is do it in a technical arena, but to also learn about setting things up. So much of that industry seems to be complex and then they race up the charts and everything and it changes so fast. You're really not thinking about the long term, but you've learned how to build companies that last A long time. And you've got it. A lot of this starts with your intent and what your intent is that you have right from the beginning. Your intent is to build companies successful, but that will last 20 years. Is that correct?

In many cases, yes. Of course, some of the companies that I've been involved in have been acquired, fortunately by corporations that have been around for 20 years and are likely to continue to do that.

Well, when they buy them, they want them to stay around too.

That's true.

Dejan, Knows winning better than most. He's got an organization of 7 investors. They've done 7 companies, and he's currently the CTO and CISO at taichen.ai, having spent over 30 years building and operating companies across chips, cyber, energy, all the things that most of us don't know anything about, but primarily focused on helping people in the healthcare benefit. And the lessons he's learned about winning and overcoming and making things happen are probably endless. And so that's why I'm excited about talking to him and appreciate him taking the time to talk to us and share, because I'll tell you, Dejan, from the outside you think, well, it's all different inside the high-tech world, you know, the AI world and those kind of companies. Is there some— I could never, you know, there's a voodoo going on in there, how you make that happen. But at the end of the day, it comes down to people. processes, and you gotta find a market. You've gotta find a solution. Mainly, things line up. There's a lot of similarities there, would you say?

Absolutely. Without a doubt.

How did you get into this world?

When I was very young, I studied obviously technology, electrical engineering, computer science, and by the luck of the draw, sometimes having good luck is more important than anything else. Very early out of college, I had an opportunity to be involved at the senior level in a public offering on the New York Stock Exchange in a real estate deal. And that was a fantastic education that you could not get in college that I took with me and moved to California and spent the next 15 years in Silicon Valley, really doing the sort of the startup world there.

What was your education? And then how did that— how did you wind up being in that situation?

So electrical engineering, computer science out of a small place in the Midwest called Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology.

And how did you choose that?

That's a different story, but I'll tell it anyway. So I was actually born in Eastern Europe in Bulgaria, and I came to the United States for my last 2 years of high school. When I decided to apply to universities in the United States, I really didn't understand the system. It was more of a lark than anything else. So I applied to only 3 places. One was MIT, one was Caltech, And the other one was this place, Rose-Hulman, that somebody said to me, it's a lot less expensive and fantastic education. And so I did not get into Caltech. I couldn't afford MIT, and Rose gave me a full ride. So, you know, it was kind of a foregone conclusion.

Talk about the, you know, the formative years coming over your last 2 years of high school, making that kind of move. That had to be traumatic. What was behind that? Was you, were you excited about doing that? Is that, you know, what did you expect and then how did it turn out?

Well, at the age of 17, you know, an opportunity to study in the United States was all excitement, no trauma. It was a chance application to a scholarship and then that worked out and I had an amazing time in the US. I went to a place which is called the United World College, which is part of a school system around the world. This one particular one was in the US, is in the US still to this day, have a Great network of classmates. In fact, we just celebrated our 40th anniversary from graduating that school.

So this is a network around the world?

Absolutely, yes.

I've never heard of it.

Yeah, it's called United World Colleges. There was definitely culture shock because, you know, coming out of then, you know, '84 communist Eastern Bloc Bulgaria and landing on a very, very posh private Small school was certainly a bit of a culture shock. The speaker for my high school graduation was Malcolm Forbes for a class of 100. As you can imagine, was quite different.

And so how'd you find out about that school? I mean, did you do so well in school in Bulgaria that they you attracted their attention or?

Well, that's another story. So there was a guy called Armand Hammer back in the day, and he did a lot of business in Eastern Europe and traveled in Eastern Europe. So one fine summer day, we were— so I was going to a high school that taught everything in English except obviously Bulgarian literature and math. One fine day, we got a call saying, hey, there's these Americans here promoting some business deals. They want some kids that speak English come to the, you know, dress up, come to this event at 6:00 PM. And so a bunch of us went and this event, Arm& Hammer said, oh, I just opened a school and I'm offering scholarships to kids in Eastern Europe. And for example, you people, young people over there. pointing at us can apply. And so I did.

And so you jumped in, you got approved. It sounds like you came by yourself, not with your family moving over. Well, that's a big shock being on your own anyway yourself. And so how quickly did you adapt and settle into kind of a winning routine? Was the tendency to go run wild since you're out of a— you had all these freedoms?

When you're living in a boarding school, you know, there's, it's fairly Fairly well contained. Plus this particular place is kind of in the boonies. It's in, actually it's near Las Vegas, New Mexico in a place called Montezuma, which is actually quite an interesting place. You know, it was not like living in New York at the age of 17. It was quite, you know, quite contained.

What skillset did you have and what did you, what stood out about you that caused you to get involved in a real estate deal that's going public in, all the way over the other side of the country in New York City?

I just needed a job out of college. I had gotten married the last year of college and I needed a job. So I took the first job that I could find in the Midwest. My spouse at the time was going on to graduate school in Columbia, Missouri. And I found a, you know, a job there with a fantastic company that specializes in running mini storage warehouses. And, you know, it went from there.

You're coming into this thing, you're doing well, obviously, you're moving up. Talk about getting involved in a company and the lessons you learned from adapting inside there and how to stand out. Because the idea is you get a job, but then you got to stand out. And so how did you catch hold of that, make that transition, and get to the point where you stood out? And then what kind of skills started emerging that you— or interests, would you say?

I would say fortune favors the daring. And when you're very, very young and you have ideas and you're fortunate enough to have people that are willing to listen to you regardless of your inexperience and youth, uh, and you're prepared to work hard to make things happen, then things tend to align. And so in this first, you know, circumstance, I was coming out of a quite sophisticated, you know, software program and, uh, uh, this company was specializing in running Mini Storage Warehouses. So I proposed to them and they spent the money to build the— and this is '93, 1993. So they invested in purchasing a geographic information system and then we mapped every high school, fast food place and— sorry, every school, fast food place and major intersection. And then every mini storage warehouse in the United States. And I created a little algorithm that predicted what the probability of raising rents in occupancy is as a function of the proximity of the, uh, of the storage to these types of, uh, locations. And it worked out so well that we took that and took the company public as a REIT on the New York Stock Exchange, selling it as a high-tech business in a low-tech industry. And from the proceeds, the company acquired additional 70 properties, uh, around the US again. And we, uh, it went from there. So it was again technology-based, but very much sort of business optimization-related type of experience.

That thing about fortune favoring the bold that you get these ideas or you develop these tendencies when you're young, or concepts come to you, they could kind of trigger you the rest of your life. I know that one thing that hit me in high school was summer jobs where You're on the bottom of the totem pole. You do the worst work. You've got the worst boss because whoever, somebody's never trained to be, most of the time they've got their own mental problems and not a great encouraging environment. You're the lowest paid, you're the worst treated. And I came to that conclusion, not being a genius, but I was smart enough to realize early on in my high school years, I don't know what I'm going to do in my future. But I know one thing, I know where I'm not going to be. I'm not going to be in the bottom because that's where you get the low pay, the worst work, the less fulfillment. And it dawned on me really early in life that whatever you're going to do, it's more fun at the top. It's more rewarding at the top. You get treated better at the top. Forget about all of the goodies that come in with income and recognition and all that. It's just a whole lot more fun when you do things at the top. But to get to the top, you have to be bold. You have to stand out. You know, you have to go out and take some risks that otherwise you might not take. When I say that, what does that trigger in your mind?

You have to take risks. You have to commit. As you mature a little bit, you also have to realize that you are taking a risk and there's no guarantees. You will win some and lose some, and you need staying power and commitment and kind of a damn the torpedoes attitude.

You obviously had to go through the things where you doubt yourself and you, you know, things don't, things don't always go well. You don't get along with everybody, not Not everybody in the company agrees with every idea you have. Implementing every idea doesn't always go smoothly. The people that get the IPOs and do well go to Wall Street, march up the ladder. And like we say, you've got, uh, you built companies over $3.5 billion in generating revenue for the companies that have implemented your program. So obviously you figured out how to work and how to create things and then find a market and then get it off the ground and go for a long period of time to where you can, you know, you see that money, that income generate, those results compound. But early on, usually all of those things happen slow. Usually as soon as you come up with an idea before you get established in your world, I was watching a video about, on YouTube, they had this video about the band Queen and, you know, incredibly successful, filled arenas, Freddie Mercury and all of their anthems. But the Drummer, I think a couple of them are. There's a couple of them still alive, but he was talking about he said in the beginning nothing. You know, you get your first record. You know, we finally got our first album. You know, wow! And then like crickets. You know, nothing. Nobody cares. Then they got on a TV. They got on Top of the Pops or whatever that British music show was back in the back in the day in the seventies or whatever. And you know, they But nothing happens. It's just like, or then when they were happening, then they're not making any money. And so it takes a while, and every step you have to fight your way through. What do you remember about those formative years in terms of getting yourself organized for not just being creative, not being bold, but then have that tenacity, and then how to overcome the big reversals and then time delays it takes to get things off the ground?

I was very fortunate to have some incredible mentors when I was young. And probably the 2 formative things that I was told early on, I took to heart, was do not invent technology first and then find the problem to solve with it. And very much hand in hand with that, another piece of advice that, again, I, I thought was incredibly valuable was always try to sell it first before you build it, if you can. And so, That has served me well over the years as a general approach to projects and, and, and opportunities. You know, is there a real need? Is there a real problem we are solving? Even if we have a solution, is there a go-to-market for it?

And how does that play out in real life?

I think it plays out continuously. I mean, I was in Silicon Valley during the dot-com boom and bust, and so those years, you know, clearly Very clearly taught me that, you know, we were doing crazy things just because we could and thinking that just because it was on the internet and had a .com at the end, it would be successful. You know, that's where, you know, kind of an internal kind of inside joke in the community became something called an FPC, which is a feature that became a product that became a company. And it happened to be a button on a webpage. Clearly, that's not a way to build a sustainable business. And then the other sort of angle of, you know, sell it first before you can, you know, before you've built it. That's a very, actually, if you think about it, a bit of a very deep advice and goes to capital investment in an idea and a company and making sure that you have a revenue model and a go-to-market that will actually return, uh, produce return to investors. And so, you know, especially today, we're on another hype curve now with artificial intelligence. Everything You know, everybody's excited about doing things with AI, myself included, but I keep those experiences from, you know, 20-some years ago doing the dot-com world in the back of my head, always thinking, you know, that's nice, but, you know, how are we going to generate, you know, net income?

That's really a skill in itself, you know, of how to go about establishing if there's a demand for this product? How did you learn how to do that beyond the early obvious things?

I think learning not to drink too much of your own Kool-Aid is very important. Going out and talking to other people and getting adversarial review, as we call it right now, or other opinions, listening carefully, even if you disagree.

Where do you make your presentations? How do you get— you've got to tell somebody about this idea. What do you think of this? By the way, if you're still listening Right now, you're different. You don't just consume content; you're actively looking for an edge. And that's who I build the Big Hitter community for—not people chasing motivation, people chasing momentum. Not theory, proximity. Proximity to operators who are actually in the arena making real decisions and winning at a high level. Inside Big Hitter, you get conversations we don't have on the podcast, direct access to people who build what you're trying to build in a room that. That holds you to a higher standard every single week. This isn't a hype group. It's not networking for the sake of networking. It's where serious people go to sharpen their thinking and compress their timeline. If you're done just listening and you're ready to be in the room where it actually happens, head to joinbighitters.com or click the link in the show notes. The right room changes everything.

I'll see you there.

See you inside.

Over the years, you, you create a group of peers that you have worked with. As I mentioned to you, you know, uh, I've done 7 different projects with the same friend and colleague and co-investor. And, you know, I, I told you, we, we kind of did the numbers and we kind of calculated we've returned about $3.5 billion to, uh, people that have invested with us or with companies that we've operated or built technology for. And it's that circle of professional acquaintances, personal friends, critical thinkers that you go to first and you run your ideas by. The more sophisticated and critical they are and the closer you are to them, the more likely they are to give you the straight talk rather than trying to spare your feelings or just not pick up the phone.

Let's see if we can kind of turn that into talking into a process, how you do that, because I do the same thing. It's amazing to me. How good an idea can sound in my mind when I think of it, and I'm just super excited about the first thing I do is go to, you know, it's almost like how you become famous or how you, you know, you get your company built. You know, if you can't get, you get the people around you excited about it or buying the product, you know, then you take it to your community and then you kind of, it's like ripples in the lake. You try and You don't go to the whole lake. You get the, you know, you throw a rock in the water, you start those first ripples, you get the people around you excited and the people around them excited. And then, you know, that tells you you're on the right track. But it's amazing if people are listening right now and they're saying, you know, I like this, I need to get better at this to save myself a whole lot of wasted time and money building things and creating things or investing in things. That never go anywhere. So how can I get better at this? Well, first of all, you go to the people closest to you that know you, know how you think, know what you're doing, and you run this idea by them. It's amazing to me how quick one or two right-off-the-cuff comments from a friend or people in my staff— my son's been with me for 30 years and he's He could see things very quickly, and my operations manager. And so, I could run it by them. And it's amazing how quick, you know, the first thing in their mind, this, that, the other, those first reactions. But you've got to say this out loud. You've got to start saying these ideas out loud to people. And you start, if you're going to make that in a process, folks, start with the people around you. take their response seriously because it could be a deal killer or it could be just a little modification. And that modification may be the difference maker. So am I on the right track with that, Dejan?

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Also making sure that you can put for yourself some milestones that you need to be disciplined to sort of pull the plug if you cannot reach is, I think, Sort of the recipe. Yeah.

So that would be, you know, if you're testing a new idea, that would be the second step in getting operational with a new idea is to have some milestones to see if you could hit some simple milestones, get a client, get someone to buy in, and then see how they respond to it. That would be the second step. You don't have to get all the world all at once, but get one. And then get 2 and get 3. And you said it's got to make, you know, the— if you're going to do something, you got to have a, you know, got to have some way you can make some money at it. Otherwise it can't be a business. The purpose of a business is to make money. And the thing is, I've always learned that if it doesn't make sense on paper, if you can't see for every $3, for every dollar you want to make, you've got to see it making $3 for sure. When you start. And the difference between the $1 and the $3, all the things you don't know are all the things you don't have in place once you get started that you didn't really know you had to have in place. Is that a good way of approaching that thing?

The other thing that you need to do is that if you give yourself a budget to achieve your first milestone, don't start until you have twice your budget available in liquid cash.

Again, I would do 3.

More optimistic than you.

I found that in the technology world, the software world, that really takes more money. It's just like, give me feedback on this. I've seen over the years, you see people that they put money. You better go to someone like DeJohn if you're going to do something like this. And someone's proven that when you have the impressive thing or the thing that people ought to take, they ought to go to you if you're in the health industry, At any level, you got a health insurance company, you got a clinic, you got a series of clinics or whatever, and you want to automate it, you want to get AI in, you want to get these agents working for you, go to Dejan because the deal is he's made companies over $3.5 billion. But what I found, Dejan, is that when you get people who've got a new idea, about software, and it could be like you when you started off with the idea about the storage units and things like that. Somebody will come in, but they're not with a company that's already operational in that. They just get the idea and they're going to start the idea. But I found that people could spend tons, and I guess if you were in Silicon Valley, you know this better, 1,000 times more than I do, but I've seen friends and family over the years, they get involved in software building operations, and all it is, it becomes like a hole in the ocean that you pour money into and nothing ever comes out. You've probably seen tons of money invested in these software operations that never got off the ground.

Yes, it happens. Fortunately for us, again, with this wave of very powerful new AI technology, we are rapidly moving from worrying about some, how long, how much something is going to cost to build and possibly maintain to really being able to focus on finding the right problems to solve, which is incredibly liberating for, for our type of work. The question is no longer, can it be done? And, uh, you know, how much is it going to cost? Uh, it really is, How quickly can we get the return on the investment?

And so just for those who are keeping score, the third thing that he said I'm going to nail down is once you test your idea out, you get a few clients, make sure you got a budget. You know, you got some milestones out there and now give yourself a budget to keep yourself restrained. You've got to have restraints on what you're doing because I'm sure you found this, that it's just like a job will expand to the amount of time that you allow it to expand to. Your budget will expand to an unlimited amount of money if you allow an unlimited amount of money going into there. And you know what proves that? The federal government. That's the federal government's approach to spending is just keep spending and we'll add it up later. What do you, when you go into these things, what are the step-by-step processes you set up? Did you just kind of evolve it one step at a time? Because you've done it 7 times now.

I would like to claim that there's this same process every time and it's successful, but the reality is that you adjust to the circumstance. I mean, doing work in healthcare is radically different than in semiconductor design and manufacturing or pure software like cybersecurity, and things are a little bit different, but the fundamentals, I think, You have to say the same, which is, you know, uh, make sure you are building something that you can get your first client on as early as possible. And then figure out how, what it's going to take to, uh, well, then you have to make a choice. Are you going to build, uh, a company grabbing market share by investing heavily in it, uh, regardless of its profitability? Are you going to be old school and Try to go into the black as early as possible. You know, if you're incredibly lucky, the two can, can be the same, but, uh, rarely happens. And so once you've made that decision, then you're either focusing on really optimizing your product and its operations to go to profitability, or you're spending a lot of your time raising money and reinvesting heavily into, into the business. And I've lived, uh, both lives and they're both very rewarding. I would say Just about equally stressful.

You don't get away from the stress.

No. The next level of stress, of course, is if you're working for a public company, then there's another layer of overhead and regulatory things that you have to worry about.

The world needs more winners. The world needs more people doing well. We need more successful companies. But the thing about successful companies, successful people is they make a positive impact out there. And the deal is, This is not talked about enough, and that is that it takes— you know, the problem is the same when you're getting started as when you are 30 years down the road and you've made billions of dollars for yourself and billions, you know, tens of billions for other people. And that is you still want to keep winning. You know, it's like you can't— like, as soon as you retire, it's like, now what am I going to do? Go get coffee? Now what? You know, it's like, you know, you go back to the house and your wife says, you're not doing anything. You're retired now. How about go get the groceries? How— I love the fact That you have people, they think they're in retirement. They're in New York City in a big apartment and they're out there. What they do with their day is twice a day they take the dog out to walk in Central Park and they got a plastic bag where they pick up the dog's poop and he's got $10 billion, but he's retired. That's not an image you want for yourself. You want to be engaged. You want to keep winning because when you have those successes, it makes you feel good. The challenge is that as you win, the reason people, you know, they stop, they run into a brick wall is like it gets so complex, you know, that you still want to— you think it's easier because I've got the success, I got the reputation, track record, I got the experience, I got the skill sets, but your life is much more complex. And that, you know, it's harder to figure out how to stay in control of all that complexity. At least that's what— What people tell me, you're probably, once you get successful, it's even more important that you stay in control. And the way I look at that is kind of like professional athletes, champ. You know, if you want to be successful, you got to train, but successful athletes never stop training. And so it's like you've got to stay in charge of your life, stay in control of your time. Otherwise you're not going to go anywhere. So when I say that, What does that come up? How does that— am I on the right track or have you found that to be true?

If you are kind of honest with yourself, your success from yesterday does not guarantee success today. You know, if you approach every project, every company as a startup, you know, forget about all the previous wins. Don't forget about what you learned from them, but don't assume just because you won in the past, you're going to win again. That's a very bad attitude. You also tend not to get the best team to work with you or for you if you have that kind of mental state. If you take the approach that everything is a new challenge and you have to do the best at it, I think you're much more likely to be happy with the outcome.

Flexibility and that necessity for being flexible is something that a lot of people, they're not willing to do. Because, you know, they, things have worked a certain way in the past, and when it doesn't work that way going forward, they think that, you know, somebody's wrong here, somebody's misbehaving. They're not. You've had the experience with 7 companies. I would say a new company is like a new child. They all are different and they're going to be where they're going to be, and you've just got to work with them the best way you can to help them be successful. Is that a fair statement?

I think so. I'm not sure if Call a company a child, but maybe a puppy.

Well, if you go 30 years, okay, lots of challenges, lots of setbacks, lots of things where you overcome. What was the toughest thing you've had to face that really challenged you emotionally, mentally, this, that, financially, everything? What was the biggest thing? You look back in your 30 years, where were you challenged the most? And usually that's where we learn the most. But anyway, where, when you look back at that, where would you say was the toughest part for you?

The best one is easy, and I was fortunate it happened to me early on. There was a period early in my professional career which I had started thinking that I'm irreplaceable in the organization. And when the IPO failed and the executive team got trimmed in 24 hours, I was so very surprised to be one of the people without a job the next morning. Now, when I, you know, mentor people I work with, when I say, always remember, nobody is irreplaceable, I say it from the heart.

How did you— talk about that experience for a minute. What did you go through and how did you bounce back?

That was exactly it. It was right on the— when the dot-com bubble blew up and we had literally had a kickoff IPO meeting with Morgan Stanley, and this was not the first time for me. So I think I thought I knew what we were doing, and you know, and you know, I was the CTO of the company, and essentially I had done all the technology and managed all technology, and I thought, you know, we were great. We're going to be so successful and wealthy. And literally the next day, the markets blew up, and by Monday, we we said, well, the investors are shutting down the company. We're going to retain these three people, but you guys are gone. And it was, you know, it was interesting. And it was also, we actually, one of the people that we need the least. We have, you know, people that work for you now that can do the job just as well for what we need. Thank you very much.

That happens in sales. I learned that early in sales. You go in for a company and they give you a territory, you develop the territory, and a new New CEO comes in and say, why are we paying that salesman so much money? We can get 3 kids out of college and pay them less and save all the money after you developed it.

Absolutely. That plays out quite often.

Did that have anything to do with you getting to the point where you wanted to have your own company and get in a situation where nobody could make that kind of decision for you about your employment?

No, I've always wanted To either have my own company or be in a position where I had free rein and a budget to execute. Uh, I'm one of those people that doesn't take micromanagement well, but, uh, you know, given a goal and the freedom to go after it, I do quite well. You know, that, that's always been important. In that particular case, you know, looking, looking back fondly, uh, it was the right thing to do. And it was a good thing that happened to me early in my career.

Well, let's wrap this thing up with a personal side. We'll wrap the personal, the public portion of this interview over up now with one question. That is, has it been worth it for you? You came from Bulgaria, you go to the United States, you had no idea of what you were getting into. It turned into a phenomenally successful career. Lots of high and low people. You're right in the cutting edge of the industry, the development of technology. And has it been worth it for you? What kind of life? What's your view of the rewards that have come your way?

It has absolutely been worth it to me. And I think I'm going to be one of those lucky people that will keep on working even through retirement rather than walking the dog. Because again, I'm very fortunate to you know, have professional interests that coincide with personal hobbies. And so, I think technology is going to be, continue to be, you know, if it stops being a job, it's going to be a hobby. Over the years, again, I've been fortunate to be able to have hobbies.

And what kind of hobbies are the— do you do the kind of— does that keep you fresh? Does that keep you motivated?

Oh, absolutely. Well, again, you know, after this conversation, I'm going to be back at my computer doing some architecture design for an AI platform that's trying to marry data analytics and AI. And that is a work, but also a hobby. For me, that kind of work is very, very pleasant. So, you know, it's again, a good thing, keeps the mind fresh.

Would you, it's been my, you know, we'll end on this. It's been my, see if you could We'll make this kind of your last comment for the people that have been listening with us and staying with us. It's like, it's my point of view, it's always been my point of view that whenever you win, you gotta keep winning in life because adrenaline, you know, there's a positive adrenaline by moving forward, making steps forward, learning things, getting a new concept, making a new friend, you're having a new experience. It's not just, you know, I won the Super Bowl, so I get a thrill. It's like there's thrills Every day along the way, like you're getting ready, you know, when you go out there and you have a problem and you work on it. But it's the harder things give you the big boost of adrenaline when, you know, it's like winning, the winning locker room versus the losing locker room after the game is over. It's like, you know, you wanna go again. You know, it keeps you energized. And I think that's the difference between people who wanna keep working through retirement and not retire to the life where they walk the dog and get away from the stress, but the people who— who love what they're doing, but mainly they love winning. They love accomplishing things. That's a lifestyle. They never want to get into where they can't go out and try new ideas and pull them off, make a breakthrough of some kind. And so the big thrill comes from winning and that adrenaline, the kick that comes from winning. Now, have you found that to be true?

Very much so. And That's again, it's kind of interesting. The profession that I'm in, in software, actually allows you to experience this microwins several times a day as you accomplish little things and you feel that satisfaction of getting something done. Of course, this is very different from, you know, taking your company public, launching a product, raising the next round of financing, you know, different level of win. But those little wins, they give you the satisfaction and the sort of the, again, the little adrenaline to go to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing on the to-do list.

Absolutely. Well, thanks so much, Dijon. We have, you know, you've given us an insight into operating inside the high-tech AI world, and especially as it, you know, goes, relates to the healthcare industry. And if people want to contact you, how should they contact you?

I'm on LinkedIn, Dayan Nanov, probably the easiest way, or my email is d@tachin.ai.

All right. Well, thanks so much for being with us. What's your next big project? Is there a next big project or what's the biggest project you're working on right now?

Improving American healthcare through optimizing administrative And clinical processes using artificial intelligence is the current project. No future projects. This one is, I think, big enough for all of us.

That's a bottomless pit of opportunity. You've done the first thing well, and that is if you're going to attack a project, make sure it's a big one. And you certainly have done that. Thanks so much.

Thank you very much, Larry. Pleasure.

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