Ep. 10 - Economics of Freedom

Welcome to the Good Steward Law and Wealth Podcast, where host Ledly Jennings explores law and finance to help listeners become better stewards of their wealth. Each episode covers the latest trends and strategies in estate planning, elder law, investment, and wealth management. Tune in for the knowledge and tools for financial success and security.

Welcome back to the Good Steward Law and Wealth Podcast. We are excited to have some awesome guests here today. Uh, we've got two doctors, Dr. David Rankin, Dr. Beth Ann Rankin Baker, and they both, uh, co-wrote, um, this book here for those of you that are watching, The Economics of Freedom. And I really wanted to have them on to talk some through some of the concepts. A lot of it's over my head, but I found it really interesting. Thanks for coming on, guys.

Hey, we're glad to be here. Thank you, Ledly Jennings.

Yes, great to be here, Ledly. Always fun to see what you're up to with these podcasts.

Exactly.

Yeah, and I just, well, what I'll start with is I highlighted a lot of stuff in the book, but one quote jumped out to me and it's somewhat long, but it fit on with what I do with my estate planning and the philosophy of being a good steward. So I'll read that and then just kind of jump in. In a capitalistic system, the best thing you can do for an individual is to help them get a good education or quality training that empowers and equips them to do for themselves in this way. Not only is the individual benefited, but a stronger and more prosperous nation will result. Americans have generous hearts and generally want to help those who cannot fend for themselves. There are expansive government programs and many private charities that provide help and assistance with these efforts. But when we subsidize non-work for the potentially productive, we waste a valuable human resource that could be enhancing their own personal good as well as the national good. Um, and I really like that quote just because generally it laid out kind of what capitalism is. Um, but also some of the themes I took from the book was education and productivity. Um, and I'm curious on y'all's front, when you wrote the book, what themes did you intend to relay? Or by the end of writing it, what themes did you feel came across throughout the book?

Well, one of the things that's really key, I just read a quote from Henry Hazlitt a few minutes ago and talked about poverty didn't come because of distribution problems or discrimination. Normally it comes from a lack of productivity, that prosperity comes from productivity. And I think particularly young college students, young high school students need to think in terms of if I want to do well for myself, what I need to do is be productive. I need to produce something of value that someone wants. And when I do that, then not only does the individual benefit, but the whole nation benefits because that raises the standard of living. Now, John Kennedy famously said, "A rising tide raises all boats," and he was talking about the economy. And so, the more people we can get into productive activities, We're seeing, like with the hurricane relief and others, there's always a need for fairly temporary types of assistance for people. But when it becomes generational, then those people never become productive. And so, not only do they suffer because they're not productive, but the whole economy suffers because the standard of living nationally is lower. So, I think if we can go back to that You really— our forebears realized that. Everybody realized you had to be productive to survive. That was just the way it was. But then government comes in with all these programs, and there are many times you don't have to be productive to survive. And I think we've got to go back to that basic idea that it's production that's the key to prosperity.

Yeah, that, that fits exactly. That's what— when I do estate plans, I always try to encourage ways to leave things to the next generation in a way that they can then advance it and be more productive. You know, if you're leaving something to a responsible child that you've raised and shares proper values with, they're going to then redeploy that money in the economy, whether it's through jobs, starting a business, whatever it is, and it has a bigger impact. So that's good to hear.

Well, exactly. And you want to leave, you don't want to leave things to children that allows them to do nothing. You want them to be responsible, and this might enhance— maybe they could start a business, or maybe they could buy a farm or something that would enhance their lives. So that even billionaires really worry about this. If they were to give their kids $1 billion, they might decide, well, I'll just live on that and I'll never do anything. And that's always a concern. And so some really wealthy people are really, they might limit the amount that they leave their children because of that particular issue because you want them to be, you want people to be productive. That's really the key.

Well, and I'll say too, on the element of productivity, I'm a consultant but I'm also a teacher and there's no more exciting moment in the world as a teacher than when that student has that moment of discovery when they are finding and perfecting that skill, that ability, or that talent that really has the capacity to impact not only themselves but the world around them. So I compare— you know, it's kind of interesting to compare an economic system with music, but it's really very compatible in the effect of its impact on the musician. You know, through time, I spend all that time at a piano learning a song to cultivate that skill. But ultimately, through the cultivation of that skill, yes, it makes me a better musician and a better performer and a better pianist, but hopefully through that skill, I am sharing music with the world and with people who might enjoy hearing that. And so I think that's the magic of productivity is that it not only solves an individual challenge, which is to have the revenue, generate the revenue that you need to support your quality of life and your standard of living, And it also, at the end of it, should produce something of value, whether it's a good or a service that then goes out into the greater world and it meets the needs of other people too. And if they are doing the same, then you see this reciprocal relationship, and that's really what keeps the wheels of the economy moving. And Americans have really done a beautiful job of this, uh, through time. And that's what's created, I think, you know, one of this economic, this economic super story that we have for the United States of America economic system.

Well, and that brings us to, Ledly Jennings, around to capitalism. Capitalism is the economic system that rewards production. It rewards productivity. It rewards those who stay up late at night trying to figure out how to change, improve their business. And it rewards those that that work hard and who prepare themselves to be productive. Socialism doesn't. I frequently make a comparison with socialism that capitalism rewards production. And so people who want to do well in a capitalistic system want to become productive. In socialism, you do well for yourself by learning how to work the system. And that's a totally different approach. And the standard of living is generally lower in those systems because productivity is not rewarded. It's how you work the system and how you plug into the system. And if the system will reward you if you support it, in capitalism they reward you if you're productive. Totally different system.

Yeah, and I was looking at an— I hate to overquote your book, but that was another one in there where you said production must be the key mindset of our population. And yes, I highlighted that one and it said right below that it said preparation is the cornerstone, hard work and diligence follow that up. But the idea that we can just tax the rich and redistribute wealth is a bankrupt idea. So that, that goes again, like production is the key to everything. And I had, while you were on education, I did want to bring this up. There's a lot in there on education, but Sometimes when we do, um, planning for young families, they come to me and feel really secure. Hey, we've got our finances in order now with you. Our kids are going to be provided for if we pass away, you know, while they're young. But then the worry comes up, well, how do we educate our kids if we're not there? How do we pass on our values to them if something happened to us? Um, one strategy that I've been developing and helping clients do is, you know, getting a education map out where they have books that you want them to read, um, values you want to pass on, experiences you want them to have. And I know it's a big part of what y'all are doing is getting this book and just capitalism in general into the education system. But is there any specific resource that you would advise a young family or young kid to start with when trying to learn more about economics in general and capitalism?

Well, we've got two, and that's really kind of on a little bit of a drive to— if you survey college students today, you find out about half of them think socialism is a good system. And so capitalism has— that profits are bad and that capitalism has flaws and only the government can correct that and correct the flaws. That's really my people that capitalism has flaws, but it's because people have flaws. But government has much worse flaws, particularly concentrated government. Now, government is good. You need government. You've got to have national defense. You want your roads. You want a justice system. You want the police forces. All those things need to be done. But what we've had in our modern society is government has expanded its reach into almost every corner of a citizen's life. And it is, it's becoming a little bit oppressive at this point. And you kind of think, well, how do we back up? The first book that I did was this one, What Every American Needs to Know About Economics. And it was, it's a thin book. It's not an economic textbook. And it was designed basically to let people kind of understand what are the basic principles that make an economy go. We had great success with it and it really well done in terms of distribution. And then this one came up because I became concerned about freedom, that freedom is the essential element of this country. Our founding fathers would never have guessed that government would be setting wages and minimum wages and prices in a free society. They never would have guessed that government would be in telling you who you can hire and who you can fire and things of that nature. They never would have thought about those things because that's not really the bailiwick of government. Government ought to deal with the national defense and the roads and all those things and a justice system. You have to think how long it takes for a trial to go through and for the justice system to work. It shouldn't be that way. These are great. I would also mention Milton Friedman. He won the Nobel Prize in 1979. For his work on monetary policy and economic policy. And he wrote a blockbuster book. And this has been 45 years ago, blockbuster book called Free to Choose. Of course, some of the statistics in there are dated, but he was well ahead of the general population. He was one that was 40 years ago talking about school vouchers and talking about competition in medicine and talking about how the Federal Reserve System allowed the Great Depression to occur. Those were things that were not being talked about. So he was so far out of his time. But that would be also a great book. Some of the writings of Thomas Sowell, and I have several of his books here. This one is called Discrimination and Disparities. Wonderful. He is with the Hoover Institution out at Stanford University, and his works are absolutely great, and some of Walter Williams also, some of those works. What I'm finding is people are not— I ran across a student that was majoring in economics going to an Ivy League school that wasn't familiar with Milton Friedman, and I thought, how can that happen? I thought these people, you need to be reading some of these basic people. I have another one here. This is from Frederick Bastiat. He wrote them all. This was done back during the French Revolution. It is really strong on freedom. It is something everybody ought to be familiar with. We have got to get people to wake up and begin to look at some of these things and realize They need to be versed in some of these great writers. And the same thing with the founders of the country. In my first chapter, you know, you talk about the amendments to the Constitution, the Bill of Rights. So those are the kind of things people need to be familiar with. And if they are, they will be able to give a great defense of capitalism.

That's awesome. I haven't read a lot of those books, so now I've got another list. Yeah, I get in trouble though. My bookshelf stacks up and every time a book comes from Amazon, my wife shakes her head. So Um, yeah. And, uh, well, that made me think, what was it like working on a book as a father-daughter duo? How did, how did that process work? Was it enjoyable? I'm sure it had its ups and downs.

It was, I'll jump in. It was a lot of fun that I will say just the, the honor of getting to sit down and work with this project with dad, because he is an economics heavy hitter, as you well know. And it was fun to just be able to be in his company and to champion this project of really taking the concepts of liberty and freedom and how those are related to the economic policies that either support liberty and freedom or distract away or suppress that liberty and freedom. And so really, that was frame through which we approached this book is looking at the policies and the impact that economic policy has on freedom. And so that's why, you know, the name of the book, The Economics of Freedom. I mean, that's really what we were getting down into. But one of my jobs was to just make sure that your non-economics major or finance major, someone who does not have a PhD in finance or economics, can actually understand this. Because I know that's one of our callings right now that Dad and I feel very passionately about. People cannot defend capitalism if they don't understand what it is. And if they don't understand what it is, it's hard to speak to the merits of it because there's a, there's a counter-narrative out there that is promoting the, the, the, the different dimensions of socialism in a very lofty way. And I think we have to just compare the real with the real. That's one of the quotes that Dad has in the book that he's always bringing you back to, that we don't live in utopia. And we're yet to identify a nation or a country or a government system out there that is operating in utopia. So meanwhile, let's deal with the real, let's deal with the reality, and let's make the decisions based on that reality. And that, for us, we're looking at almost 250 years as a nation operating under this very unique economic system that I would say has produced such an incredible prosperity, not only for our citizens, but I would suggest that Americans are the most generous, you know, that you see as generally speaking as a nation. When a tragedy happens somewhere, it is America that steps up. And yes, our government steps up, but I would also say our people step up. American citizens step up and they donate and they send contributions and they go and they are boots on the ground. And you have to ask yourself, what economic system produced a people that can do that? And that is capitalism. And so I know that's, that's one of the, the fun things you, you were asking, what was it like to work together? And I think just the calling that we both felt with this really propelled us forward. And that was, I think, Dad speaking from the perspective of me as your daughter, that was That was really an honor to be a part of that.

Oh, you're so right. And we just had a great time. And it is— she's got great skills and research and so forth and was a tremendous, tremendous help with this book. And it's just fun to work together. We go out and speak to social clubs, city clubs, and it is— it's just great fun. We kind of tag team and just have a wonderful time.

And that was a great part of the book. It was, I love all the quotes in there. There's some from historical figures. That was great, but it made it relatable in a way that I, I know how I believe, like, uh, you have a gut feeling sometimes, huh? Our national debt should not be this high, but I don't have the defense to back it up or the reasonings why. So it was really made me think with this book about, you know, giving me some ammo to back up my thoughts and think deeper about it. So. That was awesome.

Well, and the people in Washington, D.C. have, for the moment, have discovered the money tree. All you have to do is print out the money and hand it out by the billions and we're fine. And it is— the chickens will come home to roost. But right now they've discovered the money tree and this debt is stacking up. It's now over $35 trillion. It's going to be heading toward $50 trillion. Sooner or later, by the way, all the states have to balance their budgets. And so the state of Arkansas, we have the Revenue Stabilization Act. We have to balance our budget. And that is a real, real important asset to us. Say, for instance, when I was president of the university, we had a time or two where the budget forecast didn't meet, the revenue didn't meet the budget forecast. The governor would either call or send a letter said, dear Dr. Rankin, we're a little short of money up here. I think you're going to have to cut your budget $1 million. Your friend, the governor. That's just the way that it works, but it doesn't work in Washington, D.C., and as a result, we're stacking up all this debt and the interest on it is now more than the national defense budget. It's going to be a real, real serious issue in a few years.

And it really made me think. When you think back to COVID, that was like watching a live version of economics in play. And I didn't really fully understand it till reading this book of— now I know the reasons why we got checks in our bank accounts all of a sudden and how it's because the government shut down and put us in a situation where we had to get the economy back going. So, but that also leads to the high debt. So, I know you hit on that a little bit in your book about kind of the economics at play with the COVID pandemic and how that played out. Could you elaborate a little bit on that?

I will. That was— the United States panicked and it was a $6 trillion mistake. We never should have shut the government down, the federal government down, or the state governments. And many of them, we kind of learned our lesson with the federal government and opened everything back up. But many of the state governors continued on., and they left things shut down. You cannot do that. You have to learn to roll with the punches. And so when we shut— and Elon Musk back in, I think it was May of 2020, he said, if you don't make stuff, there is no stuff. So if you just shut your national economy down, there's no anything. And we found that out right quick because we were headed for a second Great Depression. So the government Federal and state governments created the problem. Then they said, and Congress met, and after the problem had been created, they did the right thing. They created a large CARES Act that pumped money into the economy. Fortunately, instead of starting big government programs, they sent money directly to the citizens. Well, if you put money directly in people's hands, they're going to spend it. And then we had a very very short recession, and we got out of it, but it cost us $6 trillion and added to the national debt. So hopefully we learned from that. We got stampeded and panicked by some of the medical experts who were gloom and doom, and it was serious, but not serious enough to shut down the economy.

Yeah, that, that's awesome to hear because I, I didn't understand all that was happening at the time, and looking back now after reading the economic theories behind it, It's very interesting. So I encourage people to read the book just for that themselves, to understand some of the reasons behind things.

Oh, well, I will say too, here in Arkansas, we didn't— we did not shut the government down. I was chairman of a committee at my church and we were doing a big remodeling project. Well, if they had shut us down in the middle of it, it would have been a disaster. But it didn't. Here in Arkansas, we basically said, okay, We're going to keep doing whatever we need to do, and you Arkansas citizens use good judgment. Use good judgment. And as a result of that, the unemployment rate here in the state of Arkansas was over 3 percentage points below the national average, and that stayed that way all through the pandemic. So we benefited. Some others like California and New York and so forth, they almost destroyed New York by shutting it down up there. And we, I'm, I'm really glad that we had common sense here in the state of Arkansas, which we're known for.

And y'all both had, I think, several roles in the state of Arkansas, been advisors to governors on, uh, different boards and committees. So I'm sure you had some play in how things happened here. Um, one thing I have to talk about with my line of work is estate planning. People come and people worry about wealth and estate tax, and I always tell them, if you come to me, it's almost a voluntary tax. But, um, what— how does wealth and estate tax play into the economics as a whole? I know right now I have very few clients that have an estate tax problem because the exemption is so high, but I know it's cut in half at the end of next year, and it could vary, uh, depending on who's elected. Um, so what is the kind of concept behind estate tax and your thoughts on that?

It's really interesting. Of course, I am opposed to the estate tax. I don't think that that is the thing we ought to do. And it is really the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, uh, protects private property, cannot be taken without just compensation. Well, I have family that is in the farming business over in East Arkansas, and they have just to make ends meet, you'd have to have a lot of acres over there. And you think about it, that is a lot of value. So they may just be barely making it cash flow-wise, but the value is rather large because that's what it takes to run a productive farm. And so the estate tax could easily reach in and say, well, we want 40% of that. And if you get above the minimum, we want 40% of that. Well, you have to sell the farm, sell it to maybe some big corporate conglomerate of some sort to get the cash. So there's a big difference between wealth and cash, a big difference between cash flow and wealth. There are a lot of people who have a lot of dollar wealth, but the cash flow is minimal. So I think the estate tax is very destructive. It really can destroy businesses. It can destroy the ability to leave things to family members. And fortunately, over the last few years, we've raised the limit, and that has helped. But I think it should— I really think it should go away. But people do need to do good estate planning so that they can pass things on to their children that they worked for and worked hard for during their life and earned. But it is a destructive tax. I will say that.

Yeah, it's always, especially with farmers, I have several large farming clients that face that exact liquidity problem. Because where do you come up with, you know, it's easy to get $10 million of land value, but where do you come up with the tax when, you know, the patriarch dies? And one thing on the, I guess that made me think the, I should say what the principles of capitalism that you listed, and one was private property. That was the first one. And then I'll just go ahead and read the other ones. We've got freedom of enterprise. We've got the law of supply and demand, opportunity for profit, limited economic risk, role for government, and entrepreneurship. And entrepreneurship really stands out to me. I really believe that's how value is created, especially with small businesses. It's when there's less red tape or less taxes on small businesses. They're not typically pocketing that money. That's going into hiring more people and making more and better products. But private property comes up a lot in my line of work is people want to make sure they're— whether it's 20-acre farm or just the family house, they want to make sure that private property passes on to their kids and stays in the family. So that was interesting to see how that ties into capitalism as a whole when you look at all of those principles together.

Well, and private property is under attack in the United States. You have seen out in California and some of the New York City and some of the cities where a mob just comes in, breaks the door down, and comes in and takes everything. Well, that's an assault on private property. And then, then some say, well, we deserve, we deserve a share of that. But when you assault private property, you assault one of the basic cornerstones of American capitalism. You've seen squatters go over and go in and take over houses in various parts of the country. And that again is assault on private property. People need to be secure in their properties. And this is one of the basic functions of government. I mean, we're sending money all over the world. We're doing all these things and we're meddling in everything, but we're not securing private property for those who actually own and work for those, those pieces of property. So an assault on private property is really an assault on capitalism.

Well, and I'll say to you, Ledly Jennings, you brought up entrepreneurship and To me, that really is one of the most magical ingredients that help spur the wheels of productivity to go forward and to produce things, either, again, either to produce a product or to offer a service. And we're very heavily service industry today. You are offering a service through your estate planning and the advice that you are giving to families and enabling them to make better decisions based on the tax law at the time. And I will say what I also believe entrepreneurs, in the spirit of entrepreneurship, contributes to our country is underscoring this precept that we are not just taking one finite pie and trying to figure out how to slice the pieces more evenly so that everybody gets a slice of the pie. Or if you get a bigger slice, then I get a smaller slice, or if I get a small— bigger slice, then you get a smaller pie. What entrepreneurs entrepreneurship says is let's just bake more pies. Let's just bake more and create things, like make something out of nothing. And I think each one of us, you know, and all of your listeners that are listening to this, can name entrepreneurs out there who they have probably never met, probably never will meet, but have made a direct impact on the quality of life of either themselves or members of their family, friends, or, or community members. And So my hat is really off to the entrepreneurs because that— and my hope is that we always have an economic system that honors that spirit. Because as we know, more than half of small businesses will fail within the first 2 years. Well, those entrepreneurs have taken an immense risk by getting out there and pouring what they have into this dream or this idea or this product that they believe can help move humanity forward. And so we need not to punish them when they're successful by swooping in and trying to take everything that they've got or putting so many regulations on it that that business is not able to thrive. Like Dad mentioned before, we need good regulations, we need manageable and reasonable regulations, but we don't need confiscatory tax policy that just sort of at its heart is saying, I'm going to take from you because you made it. You know, he also mentions to the income tax way back in 1913, I believe, you know, that was a socket to the rich tax when it was passed. You know, that was only going to impact the top smallest portion of American citizens. And we see how that's worked out, you know, over 100 years later. We pretty much are all familiar with the income tax, and that was not what it was initially sold to the American people. So we have tax creep. It creeps in and then it grows bigger. And I think that that's one thing that we also talk about in the book is that You have to remember, people will change their behavior. So depending on the policies, if they become confiscatory, then sometimes what they're hoping to attain through the policy, it doesn't happen anyway because people will change their behavior. And then I get advisors like you to help navigate those, those very complex laws to figure out how do we do this and still survive as a family and pass along You know, what we need given the law of the land at the time.

And that income tax chart you mentioned, I think it was in your book. That's really interesting to look at when you see the, how the rates have varied throughout the years since it was created. Uh, I found that very interesting.

Um, exactly. It was designed for the super rich, but by the end of World War II, it was up to 91%. And basically it was John Kennedy who became the first supply-side tax cutter. And cut the top bracket from 91% to 70%. And then Reagan came along, cut it from 70% to 50%, and then later to 28%, which was really good. Now it's crept back up to 37%. But still, that's pretty high to take that percentage of someone's income, because as you know, it changes behavior. It changes behavior because people think, well, if I make this additional money, it's going to be taxed at 37%. That doesn't include state tax. Then they may change their behavior, which is not what we want.

Right. And on entrepreneurship, it's one of those things that you don't really know till you do it. I didn't know how much pressure it was on a business owner until I started my own business and seeing how my dad went through that. It is a lot of risk. So I really respect anyone that actually does that and takes the risk. But like I said, you don't know it till you get in it and That's kind of, I hope that's something in our education system that we somehow incorporate is the values of entrepreneurship and owning a business. But, and I know Beth Ann, you're big into the educational system. How have y'all seen, made some inroads into getting this philosophy into schools and various things? What avenues are you trying for that?

One very positive step forward that we've seen, number one, here in the state of Arkansas, every single high school student has to have at least one semester of economics education before they graduate from an Arkansas school, high school. And so this is helping to make forward progress on that. I know our governor and our legislators are committed to ensuring that students come out of high school and they have a basic understanding of the economic system within which they are going to be operating as a private citizen. And I know from your standpoint, Ledly Jennings Jennings Jennings, this goes hand in hand with personal finance and good financial management and wealth planning on the part of an individual, which as we know, even for retirement planning, needs to start immediately with their very first job, you know, in high school or out of high school to start thinking about that retirement plan that they have. That's becoming even more critical for our young Americans today, which is a blessing. You know, longevity, it is, you know, we are lengthening our years. We do have a longer a standard, a wonderful standard of life here, that we do have longer years, but we have to be able to plan and afford for those as well. But the other thing is we are working to get this book in the school system just as an option, as a supplemental, to serve as a supplemental to the economics curriculum to meet here in the state of Arkansas some specific benchmarks that you and, and economic and academic standards that they are teaching with economics education, but also just to inspire students to make sure that they graduate. And even, you know, just basically saying, hey, you, you have your opinions about what these economic systems are, but when you graduate from high school, let's make sure you at least understand what capitalism is and what it is not. And make sure that with it, like with any other economic system out there, make sure that they understand the one that has built this country and has allowed the United States of America to become the flourishing economic power that it is today. I'll say also, I think this is especially important as we approach the 250th birthday of the United States of America. That will happen on July 4th, 2026. We have less than 2 years. I know Governor Sanders here in the state of Arkansas has already put together the Arkansas 250 Commission. Which is a group of people who are going to be planning celebrations and festivities and acknowledgments for this incredibly special time. No better time to be graduating a generation of students who understand and can articulate, individually articulate, the concepts and precepts and principles of capitalism, even if they don't agree with it, but that they graduate and they have that education, educational awareness of what it is. And then as they go on through life to be able to experience that firsthand, whether they're an entrepreneur or whether they work for another country or they're involved in a nonprofit. It doesn't matter what their course of action is. They're going to be operating within the capitalist society and helping them to understand exactly what that is so that they can carry that torch forward.

That's awesome. Yeah. And I'll be respectful of y'all's time. So I have really just one question that I always ask my guests. Um, and you can answer this as an economist, as an educator, as a university president, uh, whatever you want. But what is, you would say, is the biggest myth of your business? Like, my example in my world, my biggest myth is people think if you have a will, you avoid probate, and that's not true. So that's my biggest myth. But how would y'all answer that, um, in your profession?

You know, I think for me, I would, I would say that the profits are looked on negatively by so many people. Well, people are making a lot of profit or so. Profit is the return to the risk taker. That goes to the risk taker. And I mentioned a family over in East Arkansas. These folks work hard. I mean, you're talking about daylight to dark and beyond so many times. And maybe some years they make a profit, some years they don't. But that is the return to the risk taker who's putting their future, financial future on the line. It's also a return to those who provide the capital. I remember a story about George Bush and Mikhail Gorbachev, and they were in a helicopter flying over some of the United States, and Gorbachev looked down, he said, Who built all those houses down there? Just miles and miles of houses that you see when you fly. And it was all done by the private sector. Over in the Soviet Union, it was all done by government. And I've been there and seen those big high-rise apartment complexes that were built by the government. And it's over here, it's done privately. So the idea that profits is a bad thing is totally bogus. And some people say, well, they're making more profits than they should. Well, if they are, it's going to attract competition. There are going to be more people coming in to that industry because the profits attract them. And that is such a key to entrepreneurship, is such a key to capitalism, and it makes things happen. You think about things like that being done by the private sector, like SpaceX. My goodness, I mean, this is, this is Fabulous. And that is the key to capitalism, is the profits drives that entrepreneur, and that entrepreneur drives development and production.

That's a great answer.

Beth, I interrupted you, so you can go.

Oh no, that's fine. I was just going to say, probably one of the, the issues on the front of my mind is the distinction between self-interest, which was promoted by Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations, who ironically was producing his incredible philosophical— economically philosophical literature at the very same time that our founding fathers in 1776 were embarking on the greatest political experiment, I would suggest, in the course of humankind, which was the United States of America. And they adopted a lot of those principles in. But I think we hear today the word greed an awful not, you know, attached to anything capitalistic in nature. And I would push back against that because there's a big difference between self-interest and greed. I think one great example Dad outlays in the book is to say, for years and years, you know, he taught college students. And I'm teaching a graduate course today on organizational leadership. My students are not in that class because they're greedy. My students are in that class out of self-interest. They are interested in improving themselves and improving maybe their ability to get a promotion at work or to just lead in a way— whatever organization that they are working in— to lead in a better way that impacts the lives of the people in their organization in a more positive way. So I would say for people to really pause for a moment and realize that there is a big difference between self-interest and greed. And yet, by doing these things that help feed, you know, feed your self-interest, whether it's taking that class or getting that credential or working a couple of extra hours today that you wouldn't normally work, by doing that, chances are at the end of it you are also not just promoting your own self-interest, but you're promoting the national interest or the state interest, the regional interest, your community interest of those around you, because you're benefiting the lives of people around you by doing your job better. And by improving your own skills and your own abilities. So I love how this all plays together, and that was the spirit of what Adam Smith was really driving toward in The Wealth of Nations when he talked about self-interest and how that invisible hand moves and propels nations forward on the level of prosperity. And we are blessed to live in this country. I want to end by saying that we are blessed to be here in the United States of America. So I know we feel that it's on us, on our shoulders a little bit to continue carrying that torch for future generations.

Exactly. And I'll add on to what you said, Beth Ann. I'll leave with Milton, a great quote from Milton Friedman. He said, there's only one alternative to free markets: force. Some people telling other people what to do. And that's really it. You can choose capitalism and freedom or you can choose socialism and force. And it was really to Vladimir Lenin, who of course was part of the— he wasn't really the father of combination, but he's the one who implemented the ideas that Karl Marx thought. He said the goal of socialism is communism. And that's from Vladimir Lenin. And of course, he introduced the brutal brutality to the nth degree into the Soviet Union.

Well, this has been great. I could talk all day on this book. So it's been a dream of mine to have a forum for this, to talk about this type of stuff. So I'm really thankful for y'all being here. We're going to put the link to the book and all that in the show notes. So if you— I highly encourage anybody to get it. And yeah, just thank y'all for being on this episode.

And I really appreciate Well, and this book, you can get it at Rankineconomics.com, and if you put in the information, we'll sign it and send it to you.

Rankineconomics.com. I didn't get— I got mine on Amazon. I should have got your signature.

You're paying a little more for it. We've tried to get them to cut the price a little bit on Amazon. Ours is cheaper on Rankineconomics.com, but we're glad they're on Amazon too.

Yeah, thanks for having us today, Ledly Jennings. Thank you for the work that you do, uh, helping families, uh, really all across the state of Arkansas and beyond. We're, we're very proud to know you and appreciate the work you do.

Absolutely. Thank you, Ledly. Thank you.

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