Market Madness and Marriage Mediation: John Copulos on the Wild World of Real Estate Appraisal

I'm Leigh Thomas Brown. This is Crazy Shit in Real Estate. And today we're going to have some more fun in appraiser world with John Kopulos and his giant project called Ask the Appraiser. If you're in real estate, I can tell you right now, this is going to be a great resource for you, a great inspiration to your changing real estate business. And if you're an appraiser, you probably want to get connected to what John's doing too, because this is a wonderful opportunity for all of us to take better care of the neighbors out there. I'll see you on the other side.

Hi Leigh.

How are you?

I'm doing good. How you doing?

Doing good. Sorry for the delay. My computer decided to reboot.

That is not a problem at all. I decided to get a little bit of work done while I was waiting and I'm ready to rock and roll.

So thank you for coming on the show. Would you tell my audience a little bit about who you are, where you're located, and what you do in and around the real estate space? Of course, if they're cognizant of anything, they can already see Ask the Appraiser behind you, but we have listeners on Apple iTunes, so It's okay, Apple friends. You got an appraiser on the show. John, tell us about yourself.

Well, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure, Leigh Thomas Brown. I've been appraising real estate for almost 40 years. First and only gig.

What? Only?

First and only gig, right? First day out of college.

Well, that is something I've never heard from an appraiser ever.

Listen, if you want, I can certainly tell you a little bit about how that happened. When I was in college, you know, I'd have the summers off, right? And I'd have Christmas vacations, and I worked for a temporary agency just to make some spending money. And they put me in an airport, they put me in a pharmacy, they put me at a hardware store. And one day they put me in an appraisal department at a bank, and I met a couple of young people, couple years older than me, that have been doing it a few years. I enjoyed seeing what they did, and I loved the flexibility of the life that they had. And so, uh, I worked there for a few weeks, then I graduated college and Lo and behold, they gave me a call that day I graduated. They said, you know what, we're starting in a— we're looking for staff appraisers. We're going to put you through all the training. This was 1980. So I was working for them in '85. This was 1986. That's why I say almost 40 years. And that's it. I worked for a bank for 10 years. I learned the ins and outs of underwriting and loan reps and all that stuff, the back and forth that goes with the appraiser and the loan rep and the underwriters. And then I went out on my own and I've been doing it for 30 years on my own.

And you came in right at the S&L crisis. So for our young listeners, you might not know that in the '80s there was a savings and loan crisis, which was an earth-shattering, dramatic event in all of real estate. So you had only been in for, what, a year, 2 years when that hit?

Yeah, not only that, it was, it was an interesting time, definitely. And How about interest rates being at about 17% a couple of years earlier? Right. So for those folks that haven't been around this long, it's pretty interesting.

I mean, historical perspective is important, and I really think we lose that because we get so buried in today's issues. If you take one step back, you realize we've been through even bigger dramatic events before and we've learned how to shapeshift and continue to make things work. But I do have to ask a question. What in the world kind of job would an appraisal firm or the appraisal department want from a temp agency? I can't imagine a job in appraisal world that could be conducted by a temp.

Okay.

Running the mimeograph machine.

You're asking me to go back 40 years?

Yes.

Yes. If I can remember correctly, it was copying things like you just said, maybe copying appraisals. It was also, if I remember correctly, I was going through the math on each comparable grid to make sure that the math was correct. Because remember back then, We were writing our appraisals. Okay, so—

So they were relying on a temp to double-check the math. I mean, this is kind of hilarious to me because people can't do math at all now by hand, much less double-check somebody else's math. They would use an app. And frankly, I'd rather trust a temp in 1980 than I would trust an app today. But that's just me. This is crazy. I mean, you're like an anachronism right out loud.

I'm a dinosaur. Oh, that's funny.

As I put my readers back on so we can be the same age group.

You know, back then, right, we took pictures and we had to get the film— they had to get the film developed. So I was just a little peon. They would send me out to take a walk over to the film store and pick up the film in an hour, an hour later, that type of thing.

And that's because the hour developing was the premium service. You had to pay a lot of extra to get it done in an hour, much Otherwise it's 3 or 4 days.

You weren't around back then, were you?

Obviously, I'm only 25 and that's what I'm sticking to.

How do you know about all this stuff?

That was my job in my dad's real estate office. I would be sent out with the film to go to the hour print because we were advanced. My dad had pictures in the MLS book and there was double-sided tape and we'd stick a photo in there and most of the listings didn't have a photo. So my dad was, he was top of the line, man.

Oh, it's funny. Yeah.

Okay. So anyway, you landed in real estate as your first career, and I totally sidetracked you there, but I'm a little fascinated by that piece of the story, especially because young people don't tend to think of appraisal as an opportunity at all, much less right out of school. You stumbled into it and then you landed in there as a job when a crisis is hitting the markets. Talk to me about what appraisal looked like back then. Why did you stay with it? Because it is a— it looks like a good, free, easy wheeling, dealing, set your own schedule kind of business like real estate is. Talk to us a little bit about the realities of appraisal life.

Well, to be perfectly frank with you, what turned me on to appraisals when I was going to sleep and I would realize I would count how many appraisals I thought I could do a week. And how much money I'd be paid for each appraisal. So if I was pretty good, I'd do 7. And if I was getting $150 or $200, you know, you'd start to do the math and all of a sudden you start to say, you know what, this, this could be pretty good. And then what else drove me to it is I knew that I was going to run or raise a family, and I knew the type of father that I wanted to be, and I knew that I wanted to be there for my kids. So the appraisal felt perfectly into that. We were able to make our own hours. I was able to coach my 3 children, my 2 boys and my girl, until they were teenagers. I was able to go to all their shows. And, you know, 28 years ago, whatever it was, a lot of dads weren't doing that, right? Now a lot of pops go to all the shows and everything, but back then it wasn't done. So I was taking school trips with 20 class moms and all that kind of stuff. So I was digging that. But that's what drove me to it. It was just a dollars and cents type of thing. I thought I could do it, and, um, 40 years later I'm still doing it, and I'm still counting when I'm going to sleep. I'm still counting the number of jobs I can do. So that's what drove me to it. Uh, you know, it was a lot tougher back then because, you know, you talked about your dad's books and stuff like that. You know, we had to— we had to go drive by 25 comparables to try to find 5 or 6 that were good. You know, it was, uh It was, it was a tough little gig. But, you know, I enjoyed that. I love the flexibility. I love being out there every day looking at different houses. That's what drove me to it.

So I'm guessing that the mathematical equation for how many appraisals you wanted to do changed in 2009 when one of the worst pieces of legislation ever designed went through, known as the HVCC, the Home Valuation Code of Conduct. And for my younger and less worldly listeners, you should know that in the heat of the crashing markets in 2008 and '09, appraisers were deemed by many quarters to be part of the reason that the markets were failing. And that was obviously misplaced blame, even though there was always bad eggs in every industry, but they landed on the appraisers, which As I know, and you I'm sure know, was funded by the appraisal management companies. The AMCs funded that legislation so that they could start taking over the appraisal business from the independent model. So I'm curious as to what you remember from that era and what were the lessons you learned along the way of HVCC? And just for the—I'll state it for the record—if there's any piece of legislation that should still be gone back and repealed, that one needs to go away. It was designed to feed the big banks and to feed the AMCs, and I'm not wrong on that. So anyway, what are your thoughts on that era, John? Because it's still— we're rippling effect through that still today. I love it, Leigh Thomas Brown Brown.

And, you know, so I'm into the— in 2009, I'm into the business for, you know, 15, 20 years, whatever it might be. I've got my own shop. I've got, uh, 10 guys working for me. I'm what you would call a rainmaker, right? I'm not out there appraising. I've got other people appraising for me. So I'm out there doing— I'm I'm on the golf course, I'm at the bar, I'm at the restaurant, and I'm bringing in business. All of a sudden, HVCC comes into play and the AMCs come into play and the lenders don't want anything to do with the appraisers. They decide to give that job to the AMCs and the AMCs become the middleman between the appraiser and the lender. So it, it changed, it changed business a lot. So from a rainmaker, I had to figure out I need to be a grunt and I need to go back out there and start doing a lot of the business myself. And that's what happened. It was really tough. It was a wild time. I like to say that the cream always rises. And as you mentioned earlier, we've been through a lot of ebbs and flows and winners win. And that's what I did. I stayed with it and I made sure that I figured out what people were looking for, what lenders were looking for, what AMCs I wanted to work with. I don't work with just any AMC. It's got to be a professional outfit that respects the appraiser and looks to us to help them. So other than me kicking my ass a little bit more than I used to and not being on the golf course so much, it's changed. But it's all good. Life is still good and I'm happy doing what I'm doing. But as you can see behind me, about 3 years ago or so, after so many years of talking to agents and going to offices and realizing that they really don't know enough about the appraisal process and they're lacking the knowledge. And something I say to agents now that I've come up with is knowledge is power, power is confidence, confidence is success. So the more they know about what we do, the better off they're going to be. The more they realize that they need an appraiser in their toolbox, they need an appraiser to lean on. The better off they're gonna be. The better off they are, the better off we are, because they're gonna refer us to all their clients and all that type of thing. So it's a win-win situation. I figured that out long ago. So going to the offices, I've been doing for many, many years, but with COVID and with social media exploding the way it did, I decided to try and do something that really hasn't been done on a national level. I've given the opportunity for agents to come to me, and I've created a team of appraisers that feel similar to how I want to give to the agents, how I want to share my knowledge, how I want to make them better. You know, the, the agent and the appraiser relationship has not been so symbiotic over the years, and my goal was to change that. And my mantra— thank you— my mantra was I want to bridge the gap between the real estate agent and the appraiser, one agent at a time. So I started that 3 years ago, and Leigh, we're up to 70,000— 70,000 agents on the page every day. We've got plenty of questions, and we've got a ton of great appraisers that can put our best foot forward. Not your typical appraiser who's been stuck in his basement, in his dungeon for 20 years and doesn't know how to communicate, doesn't know how to share his knowledge, and doesn't want to give away the secret sauce. I want to give away the secret sauce. I think giving it away to you guys is going to make you better. And I found about 40 appraisers across the country that feel the same way about things and are businessmen just like me, and they want to do it.

So there's a huge need for that, particularly right now, because with the— I mean, you mentioned it can be a very destructive relationship between the REALTOR® and the appraiser if the REALTOR® does not understand what the appraiser's job is. And frankly, there's a miscalculation there because the REALTOR® thinks that the buyer should always get the value that they want, the seller should always get the value that they want. If the appraiser is engaged to determine a fair market opinion of value, and it's of course an opinion of value, you're protecting a different party. And a REALTOR® whose client is putting 5% down on a purchase and the appraiser has been engaged by the lender who's doing 95% of the value, of course the bank wants to have a good and fair opinion of value. And so it doesn't need to be so antagonistic But I think agents need to take one step back and say it's actually better for the consumer if the bank that's funding them feels confident in the purchase. This is about confidence in the asset and confidence in the market conditions, and, and that just gets lost in translation. But the other thing that's happening right now is that with so many apps and websites out there that make up home values, which are generally just whatever the algorithm is written, they make numbers up. It's not been drawn up by somebody with boots on the ground, with eyes on the neighboring houses and with knowledge of the area like a certified residential appraiser brings. A lot of agents walk into listing appointments completely unarmed and they've got a couple of comps. They don't understand how to value things, so they land on dollars per square foot. And that's one of my main frustrations as a 24-year agent who has been highly trained and continues to get training. How many agents don't know how to do adjustments? And that's one of the things I lean on my appraiser community for is the adjustment information. And my most successful sales meeting every year is when one of my favorite appraisers comes in and is a resource to the agents and says, here's how much I can adjust for a fence. Here's how much I can adjust for an in-ground pool. Here's the difference in a 20-year house with no upgrades versus one that's had the kitchen redone to give them some kind of a a basis of knowledge. And I'm always kind of shocked by the number of agents that don't have that relationship and also don't want it. But then the minute you have it, man, it unlocks an opportunity with the consumer to say, yeah, you paid $80,000 for that kitchen. I've talked to my local professional certified residential appraiser and they said the most they can adjust for is probably $35,000. Because if they read an article in Consumer Reports that says it's dollar for dollar, that's not necessarily so. We have to know that we can defend the value to the lender, to the appraiser, to protect the consumer. So I, I'm so grateful for what you're doing in that space. And if anybody's listening to this episode or watching this episode and you're thinking to yourself, but Leigh Thomas Brown, I do dollars per square because that's what my clients say. I will let John speak to how that is an indicator of value, but it is not the only indicator of value. So, John, can you tell my agent population how to explain away this idea that dollars per square foot is how we value a property, please? Oh, yeah.

So, Leigh Thomas Brown Brown, you are— maybe they'll listen to you. I'm sure they'll listen to you, but I'm happy to reiterate a little bit about what you talked about, and you had a mouthful of Nothing to say, but it was all nuggets. I call them nuggets. It was great stuff. And you're 100% correct. And I'm not surprised to hear that you have a team behind you. You have favorite appraisers that come in and talk to your offices and you know about adjustments. So you talked about a lot of different things. So the first thing is price per square foot. Agents, try not to rely on that too much. It's not a great indicator. Of value. You shouldn't use it. And instead, I want you to try to find an appraiser just like Leigh has. Go out there, take them out for coffee, have them come to your office, develop a relationship with them. And, you know, Leigh, you mentioned that you have somebody coming to your office and he says, you know, $35,000 for a kitchen, or he says $25,000 for a pool. That's actually not what I'm looking to do. What I'm looking to do is to tell the agent how to figure out an adjustment for a pool. I want to teach them how to fish, not just hand them over a fish and say, here's a cheat sheet, $5,000 for a garage, because that's not the case. The house is $1 million. It's not gonna be $5,000 for an extra garage. It might be $25,000 for an extra garage. But if the house is $150,000 house, it might be $5,000. So there are obviously ranges, but the most important thing is the market. What is the market telling you? So agents, when you come across a house with a pool and you can't find comparables with a pool and you're trying to figure out what the market's going to pay for it, what you need to do is kind of talk to your realtor in your office, talk to your mentor, talk to your appraiser that you have in your toolbox, talk to other agents and say, hey guys, in Kensington, what do you think a pool is going to go for? We're at the $550,000 point. We're at the $550,000 price point. What do you think the typical buyer in Kensington, in the Kensington area, is going to want to pay for that pool? And you're going to get a bunch of numbers. You're going to get 25, you're going to get 20, you're even going to get some appraisers that say none. And I can't stand that because when I'm in South Carolina and you need a pool, right, and you, you want to have a pool. So there are appraisers out there that will say, well, I can't really find data showing it, so I'm not going to give it any credit. No. That's wrong. That's a zero adjustment is sometimes just as wrong as a $50,000 adjustment because you're not doing the house, you're not doing the house justice. So what I do on my group, and actually I'm starting a subscription model of the group also because we've got over 70,000 people. It's tough. And Facebook, you know all about Facebook and the algorithms. So we're gonna be just taking deep dives. I am gonna, we, I say I because it's my group, but me and my 40 other appraisers and the agents that are strong like yourself and this and that, that have experience and have wisdom that want to share with other agents, we're going to go out there and we're going to have roundtables, we're going to have interviews. This is why me and you are here today, right? Because you're talking to me so that you're targeting your audience, and I'm going to be speaking with you targeting my audience, which is also agents, and I want to put them in touch with a fantastic, successful, beautiful agent such as yourself so that you can talk to them about what your secret sauce has been over the past 25 years.

Is there a class that you took on the internet that's been good for you? I want to hear all about it.

Yes. Okay, so I am in the progress of taking your How to Dominate During a Recession class, and Oh my gosh, it's just absolutely the best. It's really helpful to understand and to know what it was like during the other recessions and how to, to proceed. But also at the same time, in the back of your mind, remembering that every recession is not the same. So you have to be prepared, but you have to be flexible. So understanding, educating during this downtime in our market, educate, educate, educate, getting on top of that. And being prepared. So, you know, take as many classes as you can, get involved with your, with your association. Just really, you know, diving in has been— I'm so excited to get it completed. But yeah, you— it's a great class.

Highly, highly glad that you're finding it helpful. And I love what you said, too, that every recession is different because whether the media wants to call it one or not, we know the economy is not feeling perfect right now. And when things— go ahead— that's when we do more education for ourselves so we can give that education to our clients. And so thank you for those kind words. I can't wait to get the full review when you finish it. And by the way, friends, if you follow the link here, we might have a discount code to get you involved in that class as well, so you can join Mackenzie and get some education in your yoga pants in the evenings while you see clients during the day. So thank you for that kind recommendation. I'm so glad you're enjoying the fast. Yeah, you're welcome. Well, and to be fair, I do have to feed my agents. I can't just always teach them how, because not all agents are in that space when they're panicked about going to a listing appointment. And I totally agree on the ranges because an opening price point house is different than a luxury house. But Realtor friends, if you know your zip code, and you know your market, your appraiser can speak more specifically than if you're looking at the entire metro area. So if I asked my guy to look at the whole Charlotte market, that's not realistic. But when I look at Concord, 28025, I'm in a really specific space. And so I think that just shifts based on how you approach your marketing, how you approach your market. But with that being said, Y'all have to learn how to do adjustments. And the fact that more REALTORS® aren't doing this in a way that they can convey to the consumer why that house down the block sold for so much more, that's what's hurting your reputation in the marketplace as an expert when you can't adequately answer those questions. And you don't even have to go in the house to look at the data sheet and get a ballpark going on if you're a local area expert. And so our certified residential appraisers, our local area experts. And it's why I do so much ranting about these AVMs, the Automated Valuation Model, because if you think a property can adequately be valued by AI or any algorithmic-driven model, you're crazy. Because we've all been in a house that has a yard with some topography issues that's going to affect the market value. They've had a foster home for 35 cats. That's going to affect the market value and how much it affects it. You can see a range of it in the comps, but it's your appraiser that's going to be able to tell you what they can and can't work with. And that's where it's super important from my perspective that REALTORS® understand some of the guidelines for appraisers. Because, John, as you know, for years REALTORS® were told, go pull 6 months' worth of comps. Well, if I look at the market we're in right now, we're in second quarter of 2024. If I go back 6 months, that's different market conditions. 6 months ahead of here, who the heck knows what's gonna happen as we get to the presidential election 6 months from now? So 6 months may not be realistic anymore, but you don't have a lot of comps in 30 days. And so what do you say to agents that are trying to figure out how to put together their data set when we have limited inventory, we have limited options in the marketplace, it's been suppressed for a couple of years, everything's in these crazy multiple offers. They know they shouldn't go back 6 months. So what's your best advice on where to flex to get the information as accurate as possible?

Oh my gosh, you, you are tremendous.

I ask really big questions so you can pick the angle you want to land in.

Yeah, that must be part of the interview process because you're tremendous. You hit on so many different things that I want to talk about, and then your last comment is really important, so I got to go to that, but I'm going to forget about everything else You mentioned—

it's a test, see, because all my listeners can backspace and listen again, and you don't have that option. So good luck.

I don't, I don't want to do that. I'm not going to fall for your trap. I want to go back to something you talked about, okay? You talked about the cats in a house, right? And you knew about that. The appraiser is going to use that house as a comparable sale. They are going to have no idea unless the agent is smart enough to give them a package and give them a listing sheet of that comp and say, hey, John, I want you to know that house sold for $75,000 less than ours. But here's what the situation was. I showed that house to 3 of my buyers. I know that house like the back of my hand. You don't, pal. You don't know it like the back of your hand. So here, I'm going to tell you what it is. I'm going to tell you that the MLS reported that it was 2,400 square feet. That's not 2,400 square feet. They're including the basement.

I don't know if you guys have basements where you are, but we basements, and that's a huge hot topic because agents don't know the rules about contiguous space and heating and air and heat grids.

Stop interrupting me. I didn't interrupt you when I said— when you said something smart. That's not fair. Now, come on now. So you're 100% correct. So that house is 2,400 square feet listed on the MLS. It's 1,800 square feet. 600 was in the basement. That house says it's a cream puff. It was home to 35 cats. Okay? That house says it has 2 acres, but an acre of it was up a hill. So, John, so, John, I want you to know that. And agents, don't be concerned if you have a $700,000 sales price. Don't be concerned giving the appraiser $600,000 sales, right? The appraiser is going to make the adjustments. Many times— exactly, Leigh's going like this, and she's 100% correct, right? That house might be in crappy condition, boom, it's going to have a $40,000 adjustment. It might have an unfinished basement, boom, it's going to have a $20,000 adjustment. It might be on 1 acre versus 2 acres, boom, it's going to have a $20,000— all of a sudden you're at $700,000, and your appraiser is going to thank you for being professional and bracketing the sales price and giving me legitimate comparables and allowing me to do my job.

So, but you can only do that if you know how to do adjustments, people. You have to talk to your appraisers to understand this conversation. And I cannot stress it enough. Too many agents who've come into this business since the COVID era started when comps kind of felt pointless because nobody knew where the the bidding wars were going to go. But y'all, you have no excuse not to understand exactly what John just said with the plus and the minus. And you have to have a grasp of that. And if you don't know how to do it, your broker better be able to tell you or find another broker. And you've got to talk to your local appraiser. And John's already mentioned this before, too. Some appraisers are more abundant with their sharing than others are. If somebody turns you down because they think you're difficult, call somebody else. There are great appraisers in every market. Make sure you're calling a certified residential appraiser because they've hit the bar. Make that your starting point. But no excuses, y'all. As the market changes right now, and we're going to watch the market continue to change as we deal with inflation, as we deal with the increased demand from illegals, as we deal with suppressed inventory, you're going to have to be a master of real estate. And that's a partnership with your appraisers. I had to jump back on the adjustment piece.

That's, that's fantastic. And, you know, Leigh, you're, you know, you're basically tooting my horn for me. And I want, I want people listening here, I want them to join my group because you're seeing what you get. I'm meat and potatoes. This is what you get on my group. These are the kind of nuggets you're going to get on my group and in my new community that I'm forming. We're going to do classes, we're going to do roundtables, we're going to do interviews, we're going to do it all. We're going to give you PDF I call them cheat sheets, but whatever. So Leigh, I want you to take a look at my stuff. I want you to let your followers know that this guy's legit and he can really help your game. And one other thing I want to say, is it true that 10% of the realtors do 90% of the business?

It might actually be that 95% of the business is done by 5% of the realtors, but it is wildly skewed. Yes.

So when I tell people on my Facebook group If you come to my group, you are going to learn, you are going to earn. There's nothing— I am not BSing anybody. I am trying to get that 5% up to 20%. That's all, you know, that's all I'm trying to do. I'm trying to make the agents that aren't great and haven't figured it out how to figure it out. Because you know what? Listen to this, gang. Listen to this. This is why I started— one of the reasons why I started my group 3 years ago. I went on an appraisal. I went to the appointment. It was for an apartment. It was for a co-op. I don't even— you guys probably don't even know what co-ops are, but let's call it a condo. Okay? It's for a condo. The agent meets me there and I'm big on talking. I'm a touchy-feely guy. I like to talk to people. And I said, do you have any comparable sales for me? She goes, you know what? I don't bring a package for the appraisal. I go, really? Why not? Because I think it's so important. She goes, you know, I just, I kind of started in the business fairly recently and the first appraiser I met, I gave them a comparable package and they tore it up. So what kind of a schmuck would do something like that? A lot of them. A lot of them. Thank you. Okay. I didn't want to say it because I get a bad rap. People think I'm shitting on my industry, but I'm not. I'm just being real about things. So that agent, that agent was given horrible information and it's detrimental to her success. And I want to help those agents. And that's what I'm doing every freaking day. Leigh, we have, you know, between 200 and 400 people joining my group every day. You know, yeah, I'm tapping myself on the back. Yeah, I'm from New York, but there's no BS here. It works. Why not?

And eventually you'll move here because everybody from New York winds up in North Carolina and we all understand why. But I do want to point one thing out. With the agent who was rebuffed when she tried to bring a package. There is a lot of incorrect information about what the HVCC says. That Home Valuation Code of Conduct basically said that the REALTOR® had a vested interest in the transaction and therefore couldn't influence the appraiser. So we were told at the very beginning, stay away from your appraiser, stay away from the process. What we're talking about here is not you influencing the appraiser. It is you providing information to the appraiser to say, this is what I use. Just take it with my best wishes and use it as you will. This is not about you saying, hey buddy, hey, hey, need you to find this number. That's not what we're suggesting. But as a professional REALTOR®, if you are listing a house, you've told that seller that you are going to defend their property and that you will defend the contract price that they have. And I use that word very specifically. I learned it from Alexis Bolin in Pensacola, Florida years ago. Where she talks about one of your most important roles as an agent is to defend your client. Defending your client means bringing your package and presenting it to the appraiser. And if you don't have a package, then you better go get your files fixed right quick, because you should always be able to show your CMA and always be able to show your information package. And back to what John said earlier, when you have information on the comps because you were in and out of those houses, Let's say the appraiser comes from 2 zip codes away and they don't know what was on that street. They've only got the data in the multiple. Give them what you have, and you're not telling them what to do with it. You're just providing it so they can make educated decisions, because I know you're not going to put your certification at risk any more than I'm going to put my license at risk, but we're working together for the protection of the consumer, the protection of the capital, and the good of the community, and that's the main thing that has to be told here. So as we wrap up this episode, you don't have to sell your group anymore because I can tell all my people are already clicking away to go get in it. Tell us one scenario you've encountered in appraisal life that you still can't believe you had to deal with it. What's the crazy story that John has from 40 years of appraising?

You know, Leigh, I kind of thought you might ask me that question, and I've been scratching my head for 2 days. It's not really an exciting life, you know? I mean, It's not like real estate agents where, you know, you might have some crazy things. I guess, I guess the worst or the scare— the funniest or whatever, however you want to look at it— when you do it, when I do divorce work, you know, it can get kind of nasty. And I was doing a divorce appraisal and I had two, you know, I had both couples there, which is kind of random. You know, typically you get the person that hired you to go out there. Man, it was uncomfortable. I had to shut my mouth really tight and just go do my job because they were yapping at each other and bitching at me and everything. So Leigh Thomas Brown Brown, not too crazy, not crazy shit, but it's like the craziest I have. I mean, I'm not going to tell you about the time I knocked on a door when I was 25 and there was a note on the door telling me to come by the pool. I'm not going to tell you that story. I just, I just refuse to do that.

Okay, really? So was the housewife at home naked looking to see an appraiser? Is that what was going on?

I'm married.

Mm-hmm. I'll ask your wife when I meet her. I'll ask her for the real story. She'll probably tell me, and she'll have a good laugh about it, and then you'll be worse for wear for not having told me on the show yourself.

I'll tell you off line. All right, guys.

John, thank you for coming on the show. So where do they find the Ask an Appraiser group on Facebook now? Is it called Ask the Appraiser?

Hey, you're going to type in Ask the Appraiser Facebook and it's going to be there. You know, you'll see it. So it's, um, I expect to have 1,000 more members by the end of today because—

All right, friends, well, all of the links to the groups are in our show notes and you'll get information there on the new opportunity to get more direct information from appraisers as John gets that rolled out. John, thank you so much for coming on the show and giving us such good information and a good resource, because every agent needs good resources to survive right now. No doubt about it.

Fantastic. What a pleasure.

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