Stop Complaining and 'Do It Tired': Keith Robinson’s No-B.S. Market Reality

This is Real Talk with Leigh Thomas Brown, and today I'm so excited to have a guest with whom I probably could have spent another several hours in conversation, but y'all are used to that because you come to this show just because you don't know what you're getting any more than I do. So Keith Robinson is here. He is the co-CEO for NextHome Real Estate, and we're going to go in a bunch of directions. So if you're a consumer, there's something for you. If you're a super nerd about real estate, there's something for you. And if you are a regular practitioner trying to make a living helping the public, There's a lot for you. So dig into this conversation and I'll see you on the other side. Now you get to see Keith Robinson. And so now y'all all know the secret that I batch my episodes, but don't worry, you sweet things, the information doesn't go bad. It's actually evergreen. So Keith, tell our audience, who is Keith Robinson and where are you located? And I've already given away that you're a NextHome fella, but there's orange behind you with the little orange dog.

Yeah.

And for all my NextHome brokers, look, I have orange in my wallpaper. So you people that are addicted to orange, there's your color. Ta-da!

I mean, it's orange adjacent. It is.

They love their orange.

My marketing department would have words, Leigh, that, that isn't, uh, brand compliant, but it's on the way to brand compliance.

Well, there's probably one of your oranges in my bouquet over here.

There we go. We're getting there. A for effort, and, uh, we'll work on execution.

Hey, look, I love Jamie Downey, and she's my favorite of your broker owners. No offense to the other ones. I love Gail, but Jamie's my neighbor.

You just made like 599 people mad and one person really happy.

It's okay. They all love her too. So true.

She's the best. She's the best.

How's somebody not gonna love her? Come on, man.

Oh, she's great. She's great.

Okay. So anyway, so tell us who Keith is.

Oh, Keith is, uh, very excited to be on this podcast. First of all, uh, longtime listener, first time, uh, caller. So thanks for having me on. I'm the co-CEO of NextHome. I've been in and around residential real estate for, I guess, going on 28 years. Started in sales representing buyers and sellers in dining room, conference room, living room. Eventually went down the leadership track. Big mistake. Probably be retired if I would've just stuck to selling, but was an early leadership guy for Keller Williams in Northern California. Then at one point ran the 19th largest real estate company in the nation. Now I'm very excited to be the co-CEO with my business partner James Diggins and others as we continue to build out what we think is the next big thing for residential real estate.

So in real estate, what is a co-CEO? Because when you say co, my brain goes to The Office when Jim and Michael were co-managers and he was, Michael was big picture and Jim was day-to-day and it just didn't work really well. So tell us, how do two really intelligent, strong personalities co-do anything?

A lot of fistfights is, is how. Yeah. Yeah.

He's got all those and his center of gravity is probably really favorable to you.

He's got more reach, but once I get inside, it's, uh, it's not really fair. Yeah, it's not really. No. Um, first of all, I was destined to be a co-CEO because I have made fun of other companies who had co-CEOs before. So that's how you get to become one. As soon as you make fun of it, you will be one.

So you know that episode of The Office then, right?

Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like that quarterback thing. Uh, you know, if you have two number ones, that means you don't have a number one, right? That's what the joke that I used to tell. But for us, it did make sense primarily because James, as you may or may not have been aware, I know that you are, he sort of decided that the industry needed him to carry a voice and a mantle forward. And there was a moment in time at which it was very necessary. And so historically, I had sort of tended the home fires and made sure day-to-day operations were rolling as the chief strategy officer. But when there's a founder involved, sometimes the team will wait sort of because they're very used to the getting feedback from the founder. Yeah. And so it actually had more to do with the team than anyone else sort of saying, no, if, if Keith says it, then it's like James said it, so we're good to go. So it was really about, it wasn't a wild change structurally as far as what I do on a day-to-day basis. It was mostly so that the team knew that they could operate efficiently and effectively, which is super critical when you're trying to build something and go fast and break stuff.

Well, it's stability.

Yeah. Yeah. Clarity even maybe, because it's not like we were unstable before. It, it just needed clarity. They, they just needed—

you were maintaining your stability because the company had grown. And so people that are not in the CEO chair generally don't want to be in the CEO chair, but they need to know that the chair is occupied.

That's right. They really— what people just want is The ability, if you hire talent, what they want is the ability to do their job well, to get, we can say bad words on this podcast, right?

Yes. The only one I don't like is see you next Tuesday because it's just an ugly fucking word.

Oh, don't worry. Mama still raised me right. I wouldn't.

And I can't use the F-bomb because I've been told it's not brand safe, which is why I'm an independent broker. You guys have never recruited me, by the way, and I would take that personally except that I don't belong in anywhere. Yeah.

You, I don't know how to say this politely. Yeah. You're, I'm not on your target list. You're unrefutable. You know what I mean? Like, I think you have that ability to fit in anywhere and fit in nowhere at the same time, which is, which is a skill.

Oh, I, I might, I, I'm gonna take that from my bio. I like that. Do it.

Do it.

So anyway, um, what did I ask you?

You know what? I was so enraptured with our conversation. I think we were talking, oh, talent and what they want.

So, yes, talent is very important.

Yeah, very. Talent wants just get the shit out of their way so that they can operate, right? And so that's really how I saw it was we've got really talented people on the team who work incredibly hard and anything that slows 'em down shouldn't slow 'em down. And so that's really why we did it was to just create efficiencies and, and operation, which, you know, sounds super boring.

Um, there's a parallel to, to the leadership side of real estate though, of course, because leaders trust their people enough to get out of the way so that they can all do things in their unique way. Because while you cuss, I'm gonna toss the Bible in here because it says the spirit, and you know the tree by its fruit.

Okay. Yes.

Yeah. We just balanced out the word shit, which is so mild. I mean, come on. I know.

Well, I was trying to ease my way into the pool. Yeah.

Anyways, so you have all these different talents and if leadership would get out of the way so that the talented people who raised their hands could show their talents, would we be in the mess we're in right now? Instead, so much of our leadership has put the clamps on really good people because They don't want to share the stage. They're not willing to be co-anything. Yeah. And we've stifled really good talent. I mean, as a tiny broker and I'm a tiny micro broker, I still get to talk to really great agents who think they want to come over here and whether they do or don't, it's fine. I still enjoy the conversations.

Yep.

But the reason they come to me to have a conversation is because somebody somewhere got in their way.

That's right.

And as long as they're ethical and competent, their way isn't necessarily bad just because it's different.

And I'd even take that a step further and say it's our ego that gets in the way, right? So we think the leaders, so meaning just 'cause someone does it a different way doesn't mean it's wrong, which, which was your point, right? And so it's just different. Now, sometimes different is wrong, so you do have to evaluate that.

Right. It's a different thing.

Yeah, exactly. But too often, especially early in my career, I felt like, well, I kick in doors, I get shit done. That's why you wanted me to do this job. Right? So, okay. But what I discovered over time through a lot of pain was I can only get so much done that way. And so long as I'm cool with that capping my career trajectory, right? Like, uh, then great. You, I don't have to change. But if I say I want these other opportunities and I want these other things for my life through my professional career, well then I gotta develop this other skill cuz I currently don't have it, right? If it wasn't the way I thought it should be done, it was wrong. Period, full stop. And I had to learn wrong isn't wrong, it's just different. Now, sometimes it is wrong, right? Sometimes different is wrong. But giving them the freedom to skin their knees and chip their teeth and make mistakes and just, you gotta avoid the catastrophic ones. But I like it when the team makes little mistakes. I think it's great. I hate it when they make the same one twice. That's my one rule.

Exactly. 'Cause you get to learn from it the first time, fix the process. Oh, we left something off the checklist. It's admirable.

If anything, it's a, it's a failure in me as a leader if you make a mistake, cuz I didn't prepare you properly because you're talent, right? You're either not talent or you're talent. If you're talent, you wanted to do a good job. I didn't put you in a position to do a good job. That's on me. I'll fix that now, but we won't have that same mistake twice, right? Let's agree with that. And, and then we just keep going, keep moving forward.

All right. So you're totally describing my earlier years in real estate when I demanded perfection from everybody and demanded 100%. They could never live up to that because nobody's perfect and nobody delivers 100% all the time. And so I had this revolving door problem, which is much better now because I'm way more chill now than I was 20 years ago. No matter what some of y'all think, this is the chill version.

Um, so let me ask you a question since we're on a podcast together.

Okay, go ahead.

What created that shift or that evolution in your approach? Like, is it just experience or?

Oh no. An agent walked over in my office. I had hired a new assistant who was like the third assistant in 2 years and came over to meet her and they're like, huh, see how long you last. And this person was like, what? Like, she's got a revolving door. She yells all the time. And I overheard this and I died a little bit inside because I didn't see what a tyrant I was. Cause none of us can generally see from inside our echo chamber. And everybody generally sucked up to me because I sold so much. I was number one in Charlotte at the time. So I was a big deal. But then this person makes a comment that rips me to the core because it was true.

Right.

And then I actually got involved with Dan Sullivan at Strategic Coach and had the coaching experience that changed a lot in me, even though Dan and I are oil and water a lot of the times, but he's so smart. And I got my, I got my brain fixed because I didn't want to be the worst version of myself. So there's an active choice involved in it. You find out how you're perceived. If you have the self-awareness to say, I totally do suck at this, but I also had the desire to change it. But how much of that is 20 years ago, I was in my thirties, right? I'm in my fifties now. And I'd look at things entirely different than I did when I was a young fireball.

Right.

So I do wonder how much of it's related to the context you're in and how much is related to your age.

I think there's an experiential component for sure. And then I know a bunch of people who've been around a long time and never learned it, so it can't just be experience, right? It's gotta be like most things, it's a combination of, of both. I found for me, The trap for me was it worked. That was the pro— the biggest problem was my whole kick the door in and—

Oh, being a tyrant worked. Oh yeah. It didn't work for me so much.

Well, short term it worked. Like it got me a long way. Right. I, I guess what another way I would say it is sometimes our greatest weakness is an overused strength. Right. Meaning this works. So I'm just double, I'm just do this, do more of this, do more of this, do more of this. Right. And then all of a sudden I realize, oh, There is no one else to do it but me.

Okay. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Is this the experience of practitioners in real estate right now who have said, this is the way I've always done it. I ain't changing for nobody, no way. Until the system hits all of the rocky shoals and now they're forced to change it, but they weren't going to until they were forced into it.

Yeah. There's a bell curve of life, right? There's the 10% that always like to change. Those people might should stick with something for a little while, right? There's the 10% who never wanna change. Those folks should probably be a little more comfortable with change. And then there's the thick middle and we all get there at different times with different things. But too often my ego and my leaning into what's always worked, 'cause it's not this, like for some of them are just, you know, knuckleheads with their head in the sand. Fine. That's that 10%. I'll set them aside. But most of them, they just, look, they're trying to balance all the stuff. They got clients, they got kids, they got family, they got rugby practice, they've got, all the things in their life and then, oh, how's AI gonna affect real estate?

Mm-hmm.

Well, shit, I'll just wait till it does and then I'll figure it out then. 'Cause I got all this, like, it's not an affair. It's not like people are actively going, AI's bullshit and I don't need to learn it and I'm just gonna sell houses. There's, there's—

Oh, I said that about a year ago. I've changed though.

Yeah. See, right. But, and, and there's still that and other people will change along the way, but I didn't want this either though.

I didn't want an iPhone. I liked my Nextel.

Right. I remember.

I would still be using a Nextel if they hadn't taken it away from me forcibly.

Well, I'd still be using a BlackBerry. I miss the keyboard today.

Because you could type in your pocket and nobody could see you texting because you knew it was a BlackBerry.

I mean, that's one of the reasons. That is one of the reasons. You had to be good on that.

That's what's happening in pockets in real estate conventions, not everything else you've heard. Oh boy.

Oh boy. Yeah. So ego gets in the way. I'm just gonna, I'll just, I'm flipping punches, Leigh. I'm flipping punches.

You turned red. I made you blush with one tacky joke.

Which isn't easy to do, by the way. I'm usually the one making other people blush. Has anyone ever made you blush on this show? Ever?

Uh, probably at some point. I wouldn't remember. I've been doing the show now for like 12 years, so it has to have happened at some point.

Well, producer, go find those clips. There's your next blooper reel. The times Leigh blushed. That would be, that would be solid gold. But yeah, I think there's a big chunk. It's been a tumultuous few years in real estate. More change than we're used to. It's been the worst. You know, class action lawsuit, NAR stepping back from a directional leadership role. I listen to your podcast, Rob Homme, by the way, is great. Everyone, if you haven't, you should check that out.

That's even less organized than this one.

But that's, well, first of all, it's Rob and you, so like, you know, it's—

Okay, wait till you hear the next episode because I had to literally text his wife to say, make him look at the screen because he didn't have his headphones on, he couldn't hear me. We're all sitting here waving at him. Sonny has to walk in out of the other room and tap him to put his headphones on. He's like, I'm glad you can text my wife. I'm like, I love your wife. And this is why.

Agreed on all fronts, on all fronts. Yeah.

But that's the beauty of real estate though, right? That at the core of everything are the relationships so that we can have intense conversations because we care about the profession.

Yeah.

And it's not something that is going to stop. I wish, if there's anything I could wish for, but the viewers of this show, listeners of this show, and whoever you send this to in your Realtor bestie text thread, it's that everything's not done changing. And there's a lot of agents who have fallen back into, okay, I'm cool now. I figured out compensation. I'm cool. I'm fine now because they're not watching for the next wave to hit the shore, and then there'll be another wave and another wave.

Do I have permission to push back on that concept just a little bit?

Yeah, go ahead.

Because I don't think they're ignoring it. I think they're exhausted.

Can it be both?

Sure. I guess they could be ignoring it because they're exhausted. So yeah, sure. But I, I do think we have to— there's always been like one big wave coming in residential, right? First it was iBuyers and then it was, right? Like there's always one big wave coming. I don't recall a time in my 28 years where there were like this many waves coming in a row at the same time, stacking up on top of each other. And it's a lot to process. I mean, think about like, you have a podcast, James and I have a podcast. We think about this stuff a lot, right? We have to, it's part of what we do.

And we're nerds.

And we're nerds, right? And so we'd be do— this is what we would be doing anyway. We would just do it, doing it at lunch and happy hours and brunches and, you know, hotel obbies, right? Like this, so this is what we would be doing anyway, but it's not what most agents would be doing anyway. Most agents don't sit there and pontificate about the future of residential real estate. That, that also too, that isn't really their job. That isn't their job. Their job is to figure out how to serve their clients at the highest level and being forced to deal with the fastest rate change in the history, not to mention a global lockdown, not to mention buyers backing out 'cause of price change, sellers feeling stuck because their interest rate is 3 and the new interest rate is 7, right? Like any one of those was a wave that is a lot to deal with. You stack all those on top of each other and it's not surprising to me. I guess I'm trying not to scold the industry, not that you were, but I hear a lot of people trying to scold the industry into paying attention and I'd rather just tell 'em, look, choose your hard. I would pick paying attention right now 'cause I get you are tired, but do it tired. I get you're a little burnt out on all these changes, But do it burnt out because otherwise this monumentous change, these stacked changes mean that the deck is brand new. It's going to be brand new. And in the next 18, 24 months, there will be agents who have been doing it for 30 years that don't know how to do it anymore. And there'll be agents who've been doing it for 18 minutes that actually have a competitive advantage. So I don't want to scold you and make you feel bad for not doing it. I just want to tell you that you have to start, like the time for starting to process these changes is running out. And you're gonna lose this career path. There's a real opportunity to lose this beautiful, amazing servant heart, great income, theoretical, some freedom in your life career path if you don't pay attention over these next 18 to 24 months.

I think the only thing I would push back on a little bit.

Yeah. Yeah.

Go. Is that when we look at the, number of challenges that are facing organized real estate, which also impact individual experience with private property rights under the Fifth Amendment. So all of these things are impacted by all the changes that are happening, but we have a different way of management now because the information is faster and we can consume it differently than in the biggest industry change that I got to experience prior to the current one, which was going from the MLS book to the green screen. Uh-huh. Because I remember when we got the green screen terminal in the office and not everybody would even use it because it wasn't complete because they, the book was complete. So just use the book. It's fine.

Right.

And so you had a giant sea change, but the speed was different. And I would just say, we didn't have this to manage the speed. Now we have this. So the excuse of there's too much going on, I'm exhausted. They were also exhausted during the Great Recession trying to figure out short sales and a lot of them didn't and went back to work at the grocery store. And they were exhausted in the S&L crisis in the '80s because they had to go learn new lending practices. I think it's always been there.

I do agree with you and I'm not giving them a hall pass. I'm saying you gotta do it, do it anyway. Right. You're so, it, it could just be a different approach angle, right?

Well, maybe what we need is a Daily Digest podcast from somebody who can talk in better bullet points, cuz I have to talk in giant paragraphs. I know this about myself. We need a Morning Wire. Morning Wire's my favorite news podcast cuz it's 15 minutes every day.

Yeah.

And I can get the, the top line news. I can absorb it and move on. And actually it saves me hours cuz it keeps me out of Twitter where I really shouldn't be, but I, really enjoy the dumpster fire of Twitter, but, or X, excuse me, should always call it X. But if you wanted to stay out of the weeds, somebody needs to make a 15-minute daily, uh, here's some top line things to know. You gonna create that? You could, you're a co-CEO.

No, ma'am. Um, but you can, I'll be the first subscriber to yours.

Mine will take 4 hours to talk about the top lines because I have to give an opinion. I can't not give an opinion. Damn it.

There's some good stories along the way too. Well, so like, just to continue this very playful, lighthearted debate, couldn't someone give very little credence to NAR and what's happening at NAR and still have a very successful career over the next 10 years?

I think they might even have a more successful career if NAR gets out of the way of it, because I'm not convinced right now. And I say this believing in the need for a voice from the trade perspective.

Mm-hmm.

For the profession.

Mm-hmm.

NAR doesn't tend to speak for the trade as much as it's trying to speak to every topic all the time.

Sure.

And a trade association should speak to the trade. We have to have a voice there. Our voice right now though has gotten colored in the political landscape on one side of the aisle, which is not helpful because we are traditionally a neutral, everybody trade. And the association has put its voice on one side, primarily not helpful.

I guess what I'm saying though is like—

You're hurting on that front. And so if you're not associated with it, if you've pulled back and said, screw that, I'm gonna go my own way. Now that the multiple listing services are opening up to non-REALTOR® members. And so you could still have access to the data and to the professional relationships without the association. You can build a great career, but the caveat to that is Without a voice for the trade, the career itself, as you mentioned before, could be in peril because there are so many forces that want to eliminate the individual REALTOR® because that takes away the hope from the individual citizen of owning property because it's the average everyday REALTOR® who tells that single mom, yes, you can. I've got a pathway. We'll talk to my lender. We'll figure it out because the REALTOR®'s skill is the we'll figure it out. The problem solver piece that AI can't do and a bot can't do because it's not human. And that the hedge funds have a vested interest in not doing, and that the government has a vested interest in not doing.

Although their interests are, I mean, we hear more about affordability from both sides of the aisle than we do.

Yes, but then ask them what it means. They can't define it because they're just using the buzzwords of their consultants.

I agree, but we can't go from not talking about it at all to starting to talk about it and then saying, why aren't you talking about it intelligently? Like, they got to start talking about it first, right?

I would like to have intelligent elected officials. Is that a really hard thing to ask for? Come on now.

It would appear I am looking at our political landscape and it would appear that that is a very tall ask, Leigh Thomas Brown. But my point is this is I think there are people like you and me, we'll all have to lean on Tim. There are people who are gonna get involved in organized real estate and they should, 'cause they're passionate about it. Yeah. And then there's some people who are gonna get involved in organized real estate 'cause they're scared or they're worried and they should because they're passionate about it. And you could easily waste weeks getting fully versed on all the moving pieces and all the different players and all the threats to the industry and never sell a house. And not pay your mortgage and be worried about, you know, your kids' tuition or whatever else is heavy on your heart for your personal life, right? So I just feel like sometimes we like to catastrophize the industry and we like to talk about it in these terms that are like the end of real estate. Everything's the end of real estate. Everything's the end of real estate. Maybe one of these times they're going to be right.

Okay.

One of these times they are going to be right, but until then, they're going to be wrong. And I'm not saying just ignore it. Look, I have a podcast. I have a newsletter. I got all sorts of stuff if you really want to know what I think about where it's all headed. Right. And I do think there is some percentage of the aging population. This might be not good for podcasts, right? But like, I guess I tell a lot of people, if you start to get stressed about, is Zillow gonna start officially start— I know Zillow has a broker's license. Don't give me like, come at Leigh with those comments. Okay. But like, if they're actually gonna get into transactional real estate, if Zillow's actually gonna get into transactional real estate, I can tell you what I think that means.

I don't care.

I don't care. Go kick their ass. Like you have competitors, you have someone in your market right now that gets more eyeballs than you and you still sell houses and you still win. I, you get my point? Like we could worry about this stuff all day long, but don't worry about it more than you worry about your clients. Don't worry about it more than you worry about your, you know, your lead generation approach. Like I'd rather people get better at the craft of real estate.

Yeah.

Than meditating on the down, potential downfall of real estate.

Well, you can shorten that and say, don't worry about it, pay attention to it. Two different things. Yeah. So you can't let it consume you. But if you're the person who's gonna be consumed by it, then, well, we need to hear from you. But everyday people should not be doing anything more than catching your top line headlines. See if there's something that it looks relevant to your market, relevant to your buyers and sellers, or relevant to your profession, and then put it in the sandbox when you have time to look at it. Yeah.

And like, it's maybe set a timer for yourself, right? Like if I'm dealing, if I'm worried about this for more than 7 minutes, then I grab this thing. And I call a past client. Oh, I held, in case you're listening, I held up my cell phone to the camera. So like, like if you feel yourself spending more than 10 or 15 minutes on what's AI gonna mean, what's the future of NAR, is Zillow gonna start a broker?

Yeah, pick up the phone.

Pick up the phone, call a past client, go schedule yourself an open house, go do something that will get you moving in the direction that's actually gonna help your life. Right? Like I, I just see. We always hear fight or flight, we, but we forget freeze, right? That's the other one. There's fight, flight, or freeze. More people freeze than the other two actually. So I feel a lot of the industry is freezing right now at the absolute worst possible time. Like now is the, the market's starting to thaw out. Rates are, you know, we get, we dip below 6% and it looks like they might stay there a little while. I'm hearing anecdotally buyers are coming back into the marketplace. Across the country. Purchase applications are up. Yes, we had a dip last month because of seasonality and big snowstorm and a whole bunch of other stuff, right? But buyers are coming back. Buyers are coming back. There is an opportunity to have a great year. And if you're sitting there watching the Titanic sink instead of helping people get on lifeboats, you're probably missing out, right?

Well, and if you're gonna catastrophize it, at least turn it in your favor and tell people, look, you better buy a house right quick before the government takes away your ability to do so. And then you can help them have their stake in the ground. I mean, yeah.

Or most people buy because of the timing in their life, not timing in the market.

So, I mean, it is true as people do have babies and parents die and the baby boomers, as much as the generational warfare is always a topic of conversation, you have a giant piece of the American public that is actually aging out of their homes, whether it's for the end of life or it's for care concerns, they're going to have to deal with those houses. So why wouldn't it be you if you're available, but they don't know you're available if you think real estate doesn't exist and real estate still does exist. But I love the point you made earlier. And I think we need to land on that for just a second. Yeah. The fact that a third of our members at the National Association of Realtors have been in the business 5 years or less. Means they're actually post-COVID realtors.

Yeah, right, right. That never knew. Okay.

They're post-COVID realtors. So the only market they knew was the most insane run-up any of us had ever seen. And all of us old guard were grumping the whole time about these stupid multiple offers. But you who were new thought that was normal. And so when the market slowed in '22 with interest rates, you had to relearn a normal market while those of us that are old were like, well, thank God that's normalizing. And now that we're in a far more stabilized and almost normal-ish market.

Yeah.

We have so much of our agent population who has been normalized to the volume and speed of change.

Mm-hmm.

And the other ones are aging out.

Yeah.

So we have two different conversations when you're talking to another agent. One of them thinks, The way we're doing business is how they've always done business. So it's their context. The other one is still trying to grapple with it. And at the heart of this though, is the buyer and seller of real estate who have already decided, AI can't do this for me because I've got to get ready for a showing. And I don't know if I should paint the living room. And Zillow is just where they want their house to be listed because they do want their house to be. Seen everywhere. And so I used to hate Zillow. I'm agnostic to it now because now it's just a greedy website looking for eyeballs and agent money. And I don't have to feed it the agent money because my clients are giving it the eyeballs. Hey, whatever. It is what it is. My sellers want to be there though. And I'm the one who knows that. So you go right back to, in all of these things, industry experience matters because it changes your perception. Of what the consumer's looking for. And so who can have the most intelligent conversation with the neighbor down the street? Well, I could talk to them about lawsuits and industry changes. Probably not the most productive conversation, but I do ask because you do have in every marketplace. This is actually my argument for paying attention to what's happening. You will encounter people who have read the headlines and say, Well, what is that? And how does this affect me? And it's not all of your database. It's not every appointment you go on. But if you are ill-prepared for the one who says, what is this class action lawsuit I saw about realtors and Veterans United Home Loans? I'm a veteran. Your response should be, well, did you get a Veterans United Home Loan?

No.

Then, then that's not your lawsuit.

At least you are a veteran. Those guys weren't. You could start there.

It's lawyers making money. Don't stress out about it. Let's talk about your house. Let's talk about your needs and get back back to personalization, which is always and has always been one of the great realtor's best skills is how do you personalize the market and the economy and the news to this one person. And y'all are already good at that. So you should probably pick up the phone and have a conversation with somebody. As I look at my missed calls over here, because I have to call people back. And everybody should want to call people back, but I screen, so I always have to call people back. Let's be honest.

Yeah. Yeah. I guess, let me, I think we're agreeing. Let's find out. Yes, you need a functional knowledge, of course, of talking points around residential real estate. Right? Totally agree with that statement. Top line.

We're gonna call it top line knowledge. Top.

Yes.

Yep.

And if you didn't have that, but you increased the quality of your listing presentation by 20%. Instead of going to learn that 20% of the top line, I might postulate that your career would be better off. I'm not, if I had to pick, I want both. And don't get me wrong, unless you're super busy, go do both, right? But I feel like it's much more interesting to do the Survivor Real Estate Edition conversation, right? Than it is to do the, I better fix my listing presentation, right? One's like work on my part. One is just sort of fantasy island where we talk about how the world might end. And I, I just worry sometimes that we're losing sight, that we aren't talking enough about the fundamental skills. You know, when people were talking about, you know, back to basics, back to, why'd you stop? Like, never stop.

Just, I don't know, like, Yeah, but then you gotta ask them what the basics are. They can't even define that. All right. So we did, we're not worrying, we're paying attention to though, right? So we're gonna fix your language there. Okay. We're paying attention to the fact that they're possibly focusing on the wrong thing. So let me trade something out for you here. Will you accept my trade? They can both pay attention to the top line issues and improve the listing presentation by 20% if they will trade out doom scrolling on Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram. How about that?

Totally agree. Look at us. We found consensus. I bet you're a deadhead.

That means stay out of the Real Estate Mastermind Facebook group. There's not one mastermind in that place and you have no business scrolling through those posts and commiserating with strangers from around the country who are giving you bad information. Stop it. And you'll then have enough time to read the top line headlines. Shazam! We solved it.

Boom. Yes. And then go level up your listing presentation.

And when we say level up your listing presentation, I'm just going to have to add in, if you are an active realtor who's out there, you should be looking up your listing appointments on Zillow before you go to them. Because why? Every consumer who watches my show— hey, what's up, non-real estate people? All of y'all know your Zestimate. And so if you go to a listing presentation and you haven't looked up the Zestimate, You're actually behind the consumer. Come on now.

Yeah, way behind.

Like, and then you would know why my mother-in-law is very angry at Zillow and Google. Do you know why my mother-in-law's angry at Zillow and Google? Can you guess?

Because they have her home at a lower number than she thinks it's worth.

Oh no, she thinks it's worth way too much. She would never pay that much for her house today based on what she paid for it.

Don't you love it when those neighbors come in the open house? You're selling this for what?

I would never pay that much for this.

Good. Don't pay that much. Go to your house that you already own next door. Get out of my open house.

That literally happened. We had a county commissioner forum last night, and one of the commissioner candidates, she said the house that was across the street from me was $186,000 then, and it's $375,000.

I'd never pay that. Yeah, yeah.

You're doing the meme. You're doing the meme. But no, what my mother-in-law's upset about is that the photo of her house is not because it's ever been listed because she built it with the builder, God rest his soul, built wonderful custom ranches. It's got that Google picture and Zillow uses the Google picture when it doesn't have one. And you know what's outside her house?

What?

Garbage cans. She is out there pulling weeds. She's so mad.

Mad.

She's mad. And I was like, well, you can actually tell them to take that picture out because it's not supposed to have humans in it. But she doesn't trust them by telling them who she is because then they'll, they'll know, they'll know where she lived.

Kind of public record.

I mean, but to know all of this is not just a funny family story. It's truly why you want to look everything up. So when you get to the house and they're bristling about their zestament, we should be curious enough to say, tell, tell me about this. What, what, what do you not like about this? I pulled it up and I can tell you where I disagree with it, but you tell me where you disagree with it because we as realtors jump to price first and it's not always price first. Sometimes it's something else. And you wanna talk about leveling up your listing presentation? If you figure out what the something else is, you'll change a conversation. You win the listing.

Yeah, absolutely. And most of the time we jump to price because we're petrified to have the conversation and it's all we're worried about. And so we know we're gonna get our ass kicked cuz we haven't looked at this estimate. And so we wanna hurry up and get to the beating, right? Like, just enjoy it. Just talk to this other human that is sitting across the table from you. Yes. Like, it's okay. My sister's a doctor. When she has a bad day, someone dies. Okay? When we have a bad day, we close late. And don't get me wrong, that is stressful, especially if it's your deal that's closing late. But it's not as bad as my sister's bad day.

That's very true. This is actually not life or death.

It's not, it's not. It's, it's super important and you're dealing with people at frayed nerves and at one of the most stressful times. I'm not trying to be dismissive of that part. And truly no one usually is going to die. So let's try to take a breath.

That is perspective, right? So it's the perspective of yes, it's important. No, it's not the top. Yes, the headlines are important. No, it's not the top.

Right, right, right.

But you could absolutely look at it from not a 30,000-foot view, but from 100 feet back. If you looked at your business from 100 feet back, what would you see? What would be the immediate threats around your bubble of the world? What would be something your people would ask about? Yeah. And then you'll see your competitors coming in when you step back 100 feet. What do they carry in with? Oh, they're carrying a real nice folder over there. Oh, they got a, they got a basket of flowers.

If, if you had 4 listing appointments last year and won 2 of them, but you know, you could pretty well, yeah, fine. But you know everything about the lawsuit and everything about Zillow and everything about NAR and everything. Well, mm-mm. Right? Like, let me ask you this question. Let me do it this way.

Unless you're 75 and retired, in which case you're allowed to do 4 and pay for everything.

Yeah, I totally agree.

Permission.

Yes, definitely. Or, you know, you got young kids and you want to be around while they grow up. Fine. No problem. Right. But like a good agent, not, not you, not a mega superstar, whatever we're calling top agents.

Is a good agent somebody who can be self-sufficient in their day-to-day expenses through the practice of professional real estate and pay their bills and, you know, take a good vacation, right?

Like how many listing presentations do you think that agent goes on a full-time making a living selling houses? A year and you're—

making a living, they need at least a closing a month. So you need at least 12 closings, which should be in pretty much any price range, any market. That's really solid. If you're in the coastal elite communities, obviously you don't need that many.

So for now you can get away with 8 maybe, or 6, right?

One a month. So let's say that's 12 across a year. And if you are a good converter, based on the fact that some listing appointments aren't ready to list for another year or 2 years, and you can't control that timeframe. You'll convert 50% of them. So you need to be going on 2 listing appointments a month to get 1 so that you can have 12 closings in the course of a year. So to get 24 listing presentations, you have to talk to probably 48 on the phone to take from the phone to the in-person to take it to the business. That's a good closer. That's somebody who's good. That's a good closer. Right?

Yeah. So perfect. I agree with nearly all of your logic, right? So let's just say it's between, I don't know, 30 and 50 listing presentations a year, right? Just to pick a number. And that's a pretty wide range. We can hone that in.

Yes.

So what I think happens is it becomes this sort of self-fulfilling prophecy where agents who've been around a little while, agents who've properly worked their sphere of influence, agents who follow up, well, they get more listing presentations than the folks who are newer or maybe haven't gotten their sphere of influence organized or whatever, right? And so they're out there going on 20, 30, 40 listing presentations a year and you're going on 4 and you're wondering why you keep getting your ass beat, right? So, well, it's 'cause to get good at something, best way to tell my—

you gotta do it.

You gotta do a lot. Tell my 14-year-old, she's like, dad, I, I want to do this. Cool. Here's the shortcut. There isn't one. You want to get good at something, you gotta do it a lot, right? Like, hate to break it to you, so be comfortable sucking at it or just decide you don't really want to do that. Both are okay. So like I've said, just go on a listing presentation per week. Just go on one a week. If you can't get a real one, go on a fake one. Fake ones are scarier than real ones. Like if I was like, Leigh, I'm coming over, I'm gonna list your house. That stove's amazing. That alone will get us another $40 grand in list price. I'm coming here. If I knew I had to give a listing presentation to Leigh, ooh, y'all, I would be ready. I would've checked the Zestimate. I would've filled up my gas tank. I would've made sure my suit was prepped. I would be dialed and tight. The fake ones are harder than the real ones.

What else would you have done though, while you're talking about what you would do to come to my fake listing appointment? What else would you do besides those things?

Okay. I, I will tell you, it's gonna sound like I'm avoiding it, uh, but I'm gonna answer specifically. But I'd start with get it. This is very, very technical. Okay. I want you to get a piece of paper or a notes page, and I want you to put on do not disturb. And I would just want you to write down every idea you can think of for 10 minutes. It's gonna You, you'll be done in 2. Just keep trying. Just keep trying. You'll run outta shit in 2. Just keep writing stuff down. Bad ideas, horrible ideas, fireworks, you know, whatever you can think of, write it all down. Bunch of it will be terrible. But the reason that I'm being a little evasive, and then I'll answer Leigh Thomas Brown, is I've sat in on a lot of top producers listing presentations and there are some structural similarities, of course. But their approach, their style, the way that they do it is incredibly different. And if I tried to go do Leigh, Leigh, I would fail, right? I, no one could be you, but you, that is a, that is a definite fact. And by the way, if you tried to be me, you wouldn't have the success that you are having either. Ever.

Right?

And so I'm going back to just go on one a week. You'll figure it out. You will figure it out. You'll fi— you'll try things that don't work. You'll try things that do. You'll repeat the things that do. Hopefully you stop the things that don't. There are some basics. Yeah. Look at this estimate. Yes. You should go drive the actives prior to going to the house so you know what your real competition is.

Why aren't people doing that anymore?

I have no idea. I have no idea.

The easiest thing on the planet. Yeah.

For me, it was the most important because this is my direct competition. So buyers are going to go look at these 3 homes and this one, and I need to make sure they write on mine.

So, and the agent used AI to change the photos. You're like, shut the front door. There is a high-tension tower behind this house, and you look at the photo and it looks like they got a forest and they've got the power lines. Uh-uh.

They got a forest and power lines. Yeah.

Then you walk in the appointment, you're like, uh, y'all should know that this house over here on Elm, y'all ever been over by this one?

Or it's across the street from a trailer park, or it's got a 7-Eleven that's on the other side of the back.

That isn't affordable housing. We call that manufactured housing. So it's affordable housing.

I wasn't putting any judgment on a trailer park.

Uh, the way you said it, Keith.

Oh, I sounded like one of those, uh, you sounded like a California person. I sounded like one of those coastal elites.

Well, actually, no, the New Yorkers are probably nastier about trailers than California people, cuz there are trailers in California.

Yeah, we got a fair, we got a fair bit of 'em. We got a fair bit of 'em.

Yeah.

So, uh, to answer your question about the listing presentation, get good at it. Do it a lot. There are really only two objections on a listing presentation. Well, I guess technically 3. So do they like you, right? Do they trust you? That's important. But after that, it's price and commission.

That's it.

That's it. That's all. If they like you and you agree on price and you agree on commission, they will hire you.

Ah, ah, you missed one. You missed number 4.

What?

Motivation. Because especially right now in a market where many of our sellers do have that golden 3% rate and they're evaluating, do I move? They may actually not be ready to list. And so a good agent who's likable, trustworthy, and has all the other things buttoned down could still have somebody over here that's like, okay, well, we're probably not gonna sell right now. We're gonna wait about 2 years.

Yeah. Yeah.

So then you have to know you've got the, the double skill set, which I think is missing right now. We have good converters who are not good at nurture and good nurturers who are not good at converting.

Yes.

So you gotta be able to convert and nurture because of the unique situation right now.

Yes. And the nurturers aren't usually good at getting the appointment either, but the converters are. So the converters are getting more appointments, but not nurturing 'em. And the nurturers aren't getting enough appointments and not converting.

So an argument for the co-agent.

Oh, just like co-CEOs. Look at a callback, full circle podcast.

We just made a big, really windy circle to the co and how the co can work because of. Fruits and talents and skills being married together.

Yes.

Oh, for the benefit of the public.

I mean, we should probably get a Nobel Peace Prize or something.

Probably should, except that that's controversial now, so—

Oh, it is? Oh, my bad. That's right. Yeah, apparently all you gotta do is ask for it.

I don't know why that had to turn controversial, but here we are.

Everything So go get more LinkedIn.

Poison. Yes. Okay. Yeah.

So I don't know if I answered your, what I would do. I gave you a couple. I would really—

well, I was hoping you would say you would also go stalk them on the LinkedIn and the Facebook and the YouTube so you could find something out about them because I'm always wildly entertained when people call to sell me things and they have no idea. I can tell they, they didn't look me up and I'm like, it's more than just pronouncing my name wrong because that obviously means you didn't watch any of my videos, but all right. But then you start asking me how my business is structured. I'm like, you don't, you don't know that I took this call just so I could mess with you. Yeah.

Or how about the new one? I'm sure you're getting these emails. I went to a tiny little school. It was a great school for me, Missouri Southern State College in Missouri. No one, Missouri, by the way, if anybody from Missouri Southern is listening, I love y'all. Thank you for my collegiate education, but hey, what's your mascot? Lion. Yeah.

Okay.

No one is. No one's bragging about going to Missouri Southern, right? It's not like it's the Yale of Missouri. It isn't, right?

The dean is, the dean loves very much the alumni and the students.

I'm sure that, I'm sure. But what's funny though is, 'cause now AI will go read my LinkedIn profile, it'll pull out one thing that it thinks is important, like where I went to college, which I could give two rips about. I mean, it was great for me. It was what I needed.

I'm a Lion.

As a recent, you know, as a graduate of Missouri Southern, go Lion Pride for life. I'm like, oh boy, you don't understand. Like, I've never posted about Missouri Southern. I've never bragged about Missouri Southern. It's just one line in my LinkedIn.

Until this podcast. And now, as you've said it 6 times, so now.

Yeah. So now I'm really going to get it. Missouri Southern, Missouri Southern, Missouri Southern, Missouri Southern. Keep it coming, AI. Keep it coming. I'll trick you. I'll trick your algorithm. Now I'll know it's AI when they say Missouri. So don't be a hack.

That's pre-satisfaction, de-formation.

Yeah, just be a person. Like, just be, like, technology is here to make you better, not replace you. So just be a better person. Like, if you were going on a job interview, what would you do? I know this analogy, like, this has been around since I was a little baby in residential real estate, but it, the reason sometimes these things stick, 'cause they're true. If you were going on a job interview, wouldn't you do a little research about the company? Wouldn't you try to do a little research about who you were interviewing with? Wouldn't you maybe, uh, you know, route it to see how long it would take you to get there so you can make sure you're 15 minutes early, not 15 minutes late?

You are from the last century. You don't know how it works now. They don't do that now. When they come in for an interview, they want to know what you can do for them.

I did.

The one person who comes in with your old school mindset, sticks out like a sore thumb, but also like a ray of sunshine themselves.

Yeah.

And I'm like, you dressed professionally and know what this company is? You hired right on the spot. I don't know anything about you, but I'll hire you. That's how odd it is now.

My kids are gonna take your, not yours, but the listeners, uh, my kids might take your kids' jobs. So you may wanna go ahead and get your kids leveled up a little. Cause like, it's not even bus— it's just thoughtfulness. Right? It's just thoughtfulness. If I was going to a friend of a friend's house, I might reach out and be like, hey, what's he like? What's he into? What should I be prepared for? Right?

Okay. So I think it's a regional commercial. You haven't seen it probably. Allstate has an ad out right now and the young man is wearing his Duke garb.

Okay.

And he walks up to the house of his new girlfriend and he rings the doorbell, opens the door. She's wearing all Carolina stuff. They're all wearing Carolina stuff and it says, when you didn't pay, you didn't know who your girlfriend's team was before you went over and he gets in the car. She sadly looks at him, closes the door, he gets in the car. He's like, we broke up. Have you seen that ad?

No, but I believe it.

Oh, it's so perfect because it goes to the heart of this.

Yeah.

2 seconds of research would have told you everything you needed to know, but you didn't spend this much time to have this much outcome. Yeah. I mean, it goes back to what we said earlier. We're not worrying about things. We're paying attention. Paying attention isn't necessarily time-consuming.

No. And if you aren't doing that, if you aren't doing that minimum, I am worried. Like I'm beyond paying attention. I'm worried about you. I can't even wrap my brain. Why wouldn't you do that? That's like the bare minimum. Or is this why?

Because they're numbed. They're numbed. I really think people are numbed by technology because we know that it sucks you into the algorithm. It messes with your endorphins. It messes with your dopamine receptors. We know all the scientific things.

Yeah.

But they're so numbed by these things. They walk in and I've seen this trait with realtors. They're so good with people. They expect to be able to fake it. But in an AI world, I think you're going to lose the ability to fake it because the fake version can be faker faster than you can.

Right. Yeah. Well, and that's a really good point. I'm thinking about what you said versus just responding.

Cause I should have, I should have said it before because now I gotta write a whole Substack about being faker faster because that's gonna be my, maybe that's gonna be my class. I gotta build on AI. Marky Lemons took that space over real fast. I gotta get caught up.

There's room for you. There's always room for you. Yeah. Yeah. Marky's great though. Margie is phenomenal.

Her energy is amazing. I love her.

Contagious. Yeah. I guess the way I would describe it, which I think is what you're saying, is we're so overwhelmed. Like we're receiving so much stimulus all the time that the thought maybe of like, but just, I don't know, turn it off, put it down.

Like, I, I, I, or turn it over. This is my best advice, y'all. Just turn it upside down. Then you haven't gotten away from it because you're scared of losing it and you didn't. Change the screen, just turn it over, it won't flash at you all the time.

That's right, turn off the notifications, right? There are some of them anyway, some of them anyway. And then just like take a breath, like relax a little bit. I feel like so many people are so wound so tight. Yes, do the work. If you're going to meet somebody for the first time, you could do— you could ask ChatGPT and in 30 seconds get more ideas than you ever needed on how to improve your listing presentation. What to do isn't hard. Matter of fact, I would challenge most of the people listening have already thought about this at least a little bit, and it's somewhere between, I should probably have one and I don't, right? Or this part is, I'm most afraid of commission, or I'm most afraid of price, or I'm most afraid of actually calling to get the appointment. Whatever you're most afraid of, start there and just start to build the skill, build the muscle. I feel like we sort of told people, you should come into this industry because you're gonna make a shit ton of money and you're gonna have a lot of freedom. And people feel broke and trapped. So how do you, how do you get to the money and the freedom part? Well, the, the part we forgot to tell 'em is you gotta sacrifice a little bit of that freedom to the real estate gods.

Yes.

You gotta give it up. And you know, I'm now I'm gonna sound like a real estate genius. You gotta time block your lead gen, right? Which you do. Well, that's the thing is like, you've heard it a million times. So me telling you one more time that you should do it or what to do isn't gonna help you, right? Like, I guess I would, I'd advise people read and reread every year or once a quarter Atomic Habits. That would probably be the biggest piece of advice I could give to someone. And that's where I came up with this, just do a listing presentation a week. If you did 50 listing presentations in the next 52 weeks, you would be great at listing presentation, period, full stop. I don't have to do a bunch of, mental gymnastics or real estate coachy shit to try to tell you what to do. If you just go on 50, you'll be great. And it'll be very different than yours or mine or anybody else's, because it's yours and you built it in the fire. And if you're telling me that you don't have— your ego's too big, that you can't go embarrass yourself in front of friends and neighbors to get good at this crap, then I don't know what to tell you. Like, then you're gonna go try with real people? Like, good luck. You're gonna actually practice on game day, you're gonna get smoked. It, it will not be close. So if you want to beat a top producer, you gotta go do what a top producer is doing. And that's 50 listing presentations a year. I gave you 2 weeks off. Yeah. I gave you 2 weeks off. You could take Christmas and your birthday week off. You don't have to do listing presentations those weeks. All the other ones, just go. You won't even make it to 50. You'll get to like 15 and Your thing, your listing presentation will be great.

You know what too? You just accidentally made me think of something.

Tell me.

This would actually, the 2 weeks off, the, your 2 vacation weeks, you're out of town, Christmas, you went to your in-laws and you went to the beach in the summer.

Yep.

So you said, I'm gonna follow Keith's discipline. I'm gonna be so atomic habit-y. I'm gonna do 52 weeks. Dang it. I'm gonna do one out of town. And so the only device you— only tools you had available because you're out of market are not the local association's depth of resources. You don't know the municipal websites and you don't have the Multiple Listing Service. And so the only tools you have are the rando internet tools. If agents would do that, they would suddenly have a real-life application for how valuable the Multiple Listing Service is.

That's a great idea. Yeah. Yeah.

Because they're spoiled by it because it's so available and so easy. Look, you're staying usually— they had to build it.

Yeah. You're staying usually in a hotel or an Airbnb, right? List that condo if it's a hotel or list that Airbnb. Go try it. That's great advice. Yeah. Act like a seller.

Right. Because that's what they've got.

That's what they've got. Right. If I was selling this condo, it's really your hotel room, right? So it's a 400-square-foot one-bedroom. What would it sell for? Go figure it out. How would I do this listing presentation? What are the features and benefits of this particular hotel/condo development? How would I position that? Who's the right buyer? Is this a trade-up or a trade-down buyer? Is this a first-time home buyer? Who wants this condo? Is it on the water? Is maybe more retirees?

'Cause the average sales price, you go, who's gonna be the spokesperson for defending the MLS? It can't be NAR 'cause they're getting out of the MLS business, but you gave very nice props in a nice video to the new head of Brand Marketing for the National Association of Realtors. So since he's likely, if he's looking at this, then dude, whoever is the voice for MLS, maybe that's Sam DeBoard. Sam, Sam probably watches my show when he feels bored. So I'll tell Sam, hey, come on, step up. If he would put together a plan at Cove for the MLSs to get their leadership to try and do an MLS try to do a listing presentation, running comps out of market with no MLS. They would see it. They could tell it the story differently. We could figure out how to defend the last free and fair marketplace on planet Earth. This is now a Sam DeBoard announcement. Sam, you have to do this and you love me, so.

My bad, Sam.

Sorry. He is such a good guy.

He is the best. He is, he is a great guy.

But he is a bigger workaholic than I am. We were both on a leadership retreat. Several years ago, but I didn't bring my husband. He didn't bring his wife because we were like, oh, leadership retreat, we're going to work. Everybody else is going to bring a spouse. We're like, well, when are we going to work? And so they told us, well, this is for team building. And Sam and I are like, like, my team is built.

I gotta work.

We're here. Can we not do something? There you go, Sam. I gave you a project. You're welcome.

Okay.

Um, Keith, is there anything else you need to share with the audience? Before I let you go, and then we'll obviously, audience, there'll be links in the show notes for this episode to the companion episode with me, Keith, and James. There's also a link to the episode with James Diggins and all of the information for Next Home. So Keith, any last comments you want to leave for the viewing public who stumbled into this nest of greatness?

Yeah.

I think it's on the way to greatness. We are, if Jim is good to great, we're good to—

we're average to good. We're on, we're, we're good to great-ish.

Yeah.

Yeah. I guess I would leave you with this. If you're listening, if you're a real estate agent and you're listening, you probably know what to do. You don't need Leigh or I or anyone else to tell you. You probably know what to do. I would just highly encourage you to start and then don't stop. Just start. Like, stop overthinking it. Stop thinking that it's bigger than you. Stop thinking that it's scarier than you. Stop thinking that the real estate industry is going to end. Stop thinking interest rates are never going to go down. Stop thinking, stop thinking. Just, just do. Just start. We shepherd people through one of the most stressful transactions in their lives. That's what we do. We just happen to monetize that through the sale of a home. So focus on the first part. The second part will take care of itself. That's my advice.

And that is the kind of advice everybody can follow unless you are just willfully determined to fail, and we don't want you to be that person. So if you're willfully determined to succeed, yeah, do what Keith said. Keith, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's such a pleasure to spend some time with you, and I'm excited to do this again sometime.

Please, anytime, let me know.

All right, friends, hit the bell, say something nice about Keith in the comments, and we'll see you Next time. Well, friends, if that episode made you laugh, think, or shout, "Ah, shnay!" go ahead and smash that like button, hit subscribe, and turn on that little tiny bell so you don't miss the next round of Real Talk with Leigh Thomas Brown.