Shelley Vincent, a Colorado MLS leader, explains how the Multiple Listing Service is the backbone of every real estate portal and appraisal, and warns that treating it as a regulated utility could destroy the current business model. The conversation covers data accuracy, MLS governance, and why the real estate industry needs higher licensing standards and better agent professionalism.
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I'm Leigh Thomas Brown. This is Crazy Shit in Real Estate. Today we're going to talk about something that most of you probably don't find exciting, but it's wildly important, and that's the Multiple Listing Service. So I've got Shelley Vincent today. She is a leader in real estate and a highly educated woman in the space of MLS. So we're going to dig in a little bit to, frankly, the future of real estate. Enjoy the conversation and I'll see you on the other side. I can see you, but you're still muted.
Now, how about that?
Sorry, I was running a minute late this morning. My life is like 10 minutes late right now and I don't know how. So, Shelley, tell my viewers and listeners a little bit about you, where you're located, how long you've been in and around real estate. Give them the little tiny thumbnail about Shelley.
Well, first of all, we're going to be watching a beautiful sunrise this early morning here in Denver, Colorado. I operate HomeSmart for the state of Colorado. We've got about 2,500 agents. We oversee about $5.6 billion in annual volume here. I'm also vice chair of RE Colorado, which is one of the largest MLSs in the nation, and I'm chair of MLS policy. And so obviously I'm very intrigued by the changes in our industry. I like to be involved, and I think it's really important, you know, with the volume that I operate at, to be a voice for our industry, for the agents that we have, and to, you know, really try to help improve that public perception issues we've had. It also improved the quality of our professionalism to make sure that we operate at the top of our game all the time.
So let's just talk about MLS briefly. And if you're a consumer who's watching this, just a reminder, that's the Multiple Listing Service. And unfortunately, too many of the REALTOR® members of our multiples don't know what the MLS does, how it's built, or any of that. They Sadly, tell most consumers, we'll stick your house in the MLS and the MLS will send it out to websites, which the syndication piece of MLS is a very recent phenomenon, which came around with the proliferation of real estate websites and online search. And that's not the core function of the MLS. It is not why the MLS came into being. And frankly, that's the reason the MLS is being attacked. So there's a disconnect between the public perception of what the MLS is and does and agent understanding of it and what it actually is. So let's just dig into that briefly because Shelley is driving me crazy as a practitioner that the fights we have over real estate, very seldom are we really paying attention to one of the biggest threats organized real estate has, and that is the focus of the federal government on turning the MLS into a regulated utility which would be devastating to the consumer and would upend the business model of so many realtors. So if you were describing the MLS and what it does and how it functions to a member who just pays their dues and they've joined it because they want to find a house for sale, they don't have a core understanding, how would you explain it?
The MLS is the keeper of the data. And so no matter what portal you go to to search for a home anywhere, you know, in the world, it has originated from MLS, the Multiple Listing Service. The role of the MLS is to create this data, but it's not just, oh, we put a bunch of numbers in, it's okay. It's the compliance of it. It's the accuracy of it. Appraisers depend on this data and accuracy of it to correctly value your home or value the home that you're interested in buying. The data collected using the Multiple Listing Service is the core of our industry. The value of all homes, what our, you know, economic specialists rely on for all of their projections is the data that is housed by this. And so it's not just we're just entering stuff into a system. It is extremely complex data. Just so many metrics that are involved with the geolocation of it, the the walkability. It's not just this address, this value. It, it is so much more than that. And it's not just that, it's the assurance of the accuracy of the data with the compliance that is required by our MLSs. And that's why every portal you see, every portal of every listing has depended upon the core Multiple Listing Service where you have originally entered that data to be accurate and correct.
I mean, if you're the agent listening to this or watching this, let me just remind you, because I've heard it said so many times on the internet, and the internet's good and bad, y'all, but it lets me know what people are thinking when they say, I don't need the MLS, I can just go to website X. There's one in particular that rhymes with willow trees, and they think they can go there and search for houses because they don't need the MLS. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of basically how trees work, because trees have roots. And if you want to have a tree, you're going to have to have a root system. And the MLS is the taproot of all of those programs. But also, I love that you mentioned the appraisal side because our appraisers are really catching the heat of so many regulators right now for no reason, because they think they can replicate the data valuations without an appraiser. Okay, y'all, where do you think the algorithms' original information comes from? These algorithms on third-party sites are built off of data. Where'd the data come from? It came from us. But you also mentioned the biggest part that's— it's really unspoken. I love that you brought it up, that there's a compliance factor with our data entry into the Multiple Listing Service. Now, whether or not we are very good at managing that compliance, that's a different conversation. But why don't you talk about that very briefly? Because I don't know that many of our paying members really think about the fact that they do have a level of responsibility there.
Yeah. So, and what we see also is a lot of off-market deals that go on, and especially as a member of the MLS, you're required to still input them. That goes to the accuracy of the data. If we have so many transactions in our market that aren't, you know, shown in MLS, our data may not be accurate. So 99% of all of our compliance regulations, the policies put in place, is for accuracy because that is the value of our data, is the accuracy of it. So when we have deals that are off-market or exclusives, it's still required to be input in the MLS even if it's not public. And it's just because we must maintain accurate data so that our fellow portals at least have some semblance of accuracy in all these algorithms they make up for from our data. So, you know, when you talk about certain estimates done on certain, you know, home valuation sites, it's our data that decides if it's going to be accurate or not. So when we have policies in place for timeliness of changing of status or, you know, okay, what type of loan was it? You know, were there any concessions, things like that? These agents are like, oh, why do I have to put all this in there? Our appraisers, our economists are depending on that data to help us make accurate market predictions and to see exactly where we are. I mean, interest rates, everything is tied to this data as to where the market is going, what types of loans are being used. Everything depends on this core data that your local MLS is collecting.
What do you think? And let's just do a little hypothetical here. If the federal government were to step in and take control of the MLS under the guise of antitrust or under the guise of monopoly busting, whatever angle they wanted to take, and we, we know the biggest challenge to us doesn't come from elected officials, it comes from these regulatory agencies. So let's just say they decided to take an approach that makes the MLS a regulated utility. What do you think is the worst outcome of that and how much of a threat does your MLS body feel there is in that space?
Well, I try not to get too political, but it is. And so elections have consequences. That's what it is. And one of the things we think of too is, I can't remember if it was Reagan that said, always be aware when the government says they're here to help you. I can't imagine taking away a business model and turning it into a monopoly that's government controlled to protect you from a monopoly. Never underestimate the government to ruin a good thing. And I think of things like crypto, you know, things like that, you know, that regulations can completely just destroy. There's a difference between standardization and regulation. And it like just, you know, because I do teach on crypto, I would love to see standardization of crypto practices to allow it to be used more in our lending methods. Now, the second that happens, you get regulation. Then you have a good thing come to an end. This is a free market. By having the MLS in place, you're competing with other MLSs. You're competing for data. You are allowing natural competition with subscription prices. You are making that MLS compete by offering better tools and applications in addition to it. So what MLS do you know that it's just an MLS, you enter data, there's nothing else there. You know, for RE Colorado, you know, we have other, you know, deals with ShowingTime, BrokerBay, Skyslope. We just created a partnership with Lundy, which helps visually impaired people search for homes and get data on them. We have many other investments that we make with the community and partnerships. Your local MLS is not a data center that you enter and you walk away. It is a tool to help you with your business. If you'll only use those tools, they've worked hard to invest in to provide you with.
And by the way, y'all, wherever you are, your MLS does offer classes to help you maximize your subscription. They will show you all the things you've never done because we know that the bulk of the members log in if they can find their password, and then they search for a house for a buyer. They maybe set up an automated search or they've got a listing appointment. They'll pull some comps and then they're out. And that is not even scratching the surface of the information that's available to you that you could provide to elected officials, let them know what's happening in your market that you could provide to buyers that are curious if the market's going to crash or is it going to go up and should I buy? Give them some data to help them make decisions. It's all available right there. But you also mentioned something else really interesting that is an argument I don't think I've heard before. We have heard for years and years, and I've of course been one of the ones that have said it, I can foresee a future where we do have a national MLS because the public does love to search and they would love to go to Colorado and say, well, what is different between Denver and Charlotte, North Carolina? And so they could compare quite easily. However, there is an organic competition between MLSs, which is very healthy. And I love that you've brought that up because we've been in this era of mergers and acquisitions amongst our MLSs for, I mean, what, a decade now? We've been seeing the roll-ups go on between associations and MLSs, but—
And I expect that to continue. As we move forward, as the larger MLSs are able to provide a little bit stronger support and, you know, with, you know, the elephant in the room, the lawsuits, the move towards what I would see— I've heard a lot of conversation about decoupling because most MLSs are owned by the associations. Association created these MLSs as tools and benefits for their members.
Right.
And so, but what you're seeing is because, uh, you have a lot of also non-members that want access and a movement towards updating their policies, I believe that you're going to see some of the smaller associations say, hey, we want to provide better opportunities for our membership, for all agents. And so we're going to see a little bit more decoupling of MLSs from the associations. Letting the MLSs be more independent business models and allowing the associations to align with them. But here's my thing too. It's not the policies of the MLSs or the associations that are at issue. The policies of the MLSs are for accuracy of data. And that's the key here is with the MLSs, that's what our policies are. Now, the policies of the associations obviously is for ethics. And fairness in business practices, which are being horribly misconstrued in our market these days. Obviously, we need to adjust policies as times change, as consumers' needs differ. But we're always willing to do that, whether it's the MLS or the associations.
And I love that you brought up the consumer piece of this because there is a wonderful benefit of good data, and that's consumer protection. I think we forget sometimes in our conversations where we're talking about the data, but also you've also introduced a, a thought process there too. There is a very loud argument from the side that wants to destroy organized real estate, because that is absolutely the end goal of certain players.
Yep.
We did not set things up to be a problem, but the internet has come into play and smartphones have come into play and external websites have come into play. So when the MLSs were created by their parent associations, as you said, as a member benefit, of course there's a move now to figure out, you know, should these be standalone organizations because things have changed and because we want to continually improve consumer protection. I'm so tired of the argument that the MLSs should always have been standalone because I came into the business with a book. The MLS book still existed then and it got updated every week and you waited for your pages to come. No, you know what I thought was so funny?
You just made me think about this and I'm just going to go make this go sideways as catchmark in the debate last week. It's like accusing, it's like, you know, it says, you know, do not copy, do not share these books. What is that antitrust? It's like, called copyright.
I mean, it's no different than— look behind me, I've got them all copyrighted. I've got—
yeah, I think it's like, it's like if I paid to collect the data, if I paid to print the book, yeah, I own it. So I— the arguments just absolutely, you know, hurt, just hurt my brain to listen to.
Was a— it was a weak argument, but it was built on a mainstream media perception of real estate. And I think it was absolute evidence that the research into how the industry operates was either never conducted or it was conducted on HGTV, which is not accurate.
Correct.
I mean, honestly, do you remember the movie The Money Pit with Tom Hanks and Leigh Thomas Brown? If you remember in that movie when they're looking for their dream house, their agent, the overweight guy that ran around the track with them before he had a heart attack and He's eating his jelly donut while he's looking through his MLS book and he takes a big bite and the jelly hits the— Yeah, most people just kind of in their brain, they skim over that because they remember the problems with the house itself. But it's like a little time capsule of how it used to work. And it was agents held the data not to exclude people from it, but to share it with each other. Because if you didn't have the MLS book, then in my office I would have no way to know what was happening in an office down the street. But the beauty is they knew the person who wanted to sell. I knew the person that wanted to buy, and we can then introduce them to each other. And that benefits the consumer. And I really wish this would be the argument that our profession would take is a more anecdotal explainer of how consumer protection has come into being, not just declaring by stomping our feet that We're the good guys here because I think we are the good guys, but it's inherent upon us to explain it in a way that regular people can understand.
And obviously, yes, Mark, we are protecting the public, uh, you know, as agents by having a higher knowledge of this industry. That is our job is to protect the public. Now what's happened with the internet and everything, all this data is now for anyone, uh, to see. Now, that said, and the inaccuracy of the algorithms applied to this data is an issue that I see as well. But also, these consumer-facing sites are only offering a snapshot of the data that is actually collected in the—
They just want clicks. They want you to click. They're only going to show you just enough to make you click.
Yeah. And I can't remember the name of the woman who was representing Zillow at Inman this last week. But she, all she could talk about is the customer, that everything is focused on the customer. The customer is this, and we're charging these huge referral fees for leads because they're better. And, and it was, uh, you know, amazing what she said in this interview. But I want to make it very clear, her goal and her description of the customer is not the agent.
No, it's the money. I mean, their customer is the shareholder.
It's clicks. It's clicks. And that scared me because there was no discussion of accuracy of data in doing a service. It had nothing to do with that. It doesn't have to.
Their whole goal is shareholder value, and they will do whatever they need to do to drive shareholder value, which is something that agents who pay into their system are failing to pay attention to the fact that they're feeding a monster that is only focused on dollars at the end of the day. And you cannot build a sustainable real estate business on that. And everything does rest on the foundational belief of the consumer that the real estate data has at its core a good factual backing, which comes from the person who's closest to the data, which should be the REALTOR®, and that's not going to be the website. So there's such a, such a difference in the end goal. Our end goal on the professional side, on the trade association side, has been the fundamental rights of the consumer to have the most information possible so they can make a good decision. The foundational principle of any of those third parties, how much money can we make for shareholders? That's, that's what they're bound to do by SEC rules if you're a listed stock. Your fiduciary duty is to the end shareholder, not to the agent paying you or to the consumer who's clicking. It's the shareholder. Our duty based on our code of ethics or the compliance bylaws of MLS is the best interest of the consumer public, whether or not they're our client. And I think if we would lean on that a little more, I mean, if our members would understand it, I, I feel like as an educator, it's 50 first dates because I am saying the same thing every day. Every day. Every day.
I feel you on that.
Oh, that movie.
Well, I really think our agents, I don't think our agents realize the— Well, that's my audience.
Educator.
That's my audience. Yeah, the value of the MLS and exactly what it does. But also it's not just that, you know, a consumer on a certain website you know, portal cannot, does not have access to the non-public data that we do, whether, you know, we can click straight through, go to the entire history of tax records, loans. We know the motivations of the sellers based on, you know, maybe loan balances, what's been taken out on that house, where they're at, how many times it's changed hands. There's so much data that we have available to us as agents that the consumer doesn't see. And so they could easily have interpreted the information they have wrong because they are lacking so much more data that we have access to because of the MLS.
Is there a class that you took on the MLS that's been good for you? I want to hear all about it.
Yes. Okay. So I am in the progress of taking your How to Dominate During a Recession class and Oh my gosh, it's just absolutely the best. It's really helpful to understand and to know what it was like during the other recessions and how to, to proceed. But also at the same time, in the back of your mind, remembering that every recession is not the same. So you have to be prepared, but you have to be flexible. So understanding, educating during this downtime in our market, educate, educate, educate, getting on top of that. And being prepared. So, you know, take as many classes as you can, get involved with your, with your association. Just really, you know, diving in has been— I'm so excited to get it completed. But yeah, you— it's a great class.
Highly, highly glad that you're finding it helpful. And I love what you said, too, that every recession is different because whether the media wants to call it one or not, we know the economy is not feeling perfect right now. And when things go— that's when we do more education for ourselves so we can give that education to our clients. And so thank you for those kind words. I can't wait to get the full review when you finish it. And by the way, friends, if you follow the link here, we might have a discount code to get you involved in that class as well, so you can join Mackenzie and get some education in your yoga pants in the evenings while you— clients during the day. So thank you for that kind recommendation. I'm so glad you're enjoying the fast.
Yeah, you're welcome.
Well, I wish I knew who said it because I would totally give attribution if I could, but it's that phrase that information is free, but knowledge is priceless is exactly what you just described because you can get all this information, but if you don't know what to do with it and how it has a direct correlation to that property, it's not valuable at all. And I think our members, and the public have gotten a very conflated picture of how things work because, well, I found it online, so obviously I don't need an agent. And you're thinking that's the bare minimum of what you knew about that property. And we all have war stories for years about the things that have been discovered after you find out it has 3 bedrooms, 2 baths, because then you find out it's not really 3 bedrooms, it's 2 bedrooms, but they used one as a third bedroom. And it's not really 2 full baths because one only has a sink and a toilet.
So it's really a half bath, but it got put out there will be an MLS.
It all starts cascading from the beginning point of the data.
So I'm so excited about the policies of the MLS. There are legal requirements to be able to say it's a bedroom or not. And then we'll get a lot of pushback from agents.
We have to educate them better. I mean, the fights we have here, I don't know if you have them, are over the number of bedrooms on a septic system because they want to argue that it's got 5 bedrooms. No, baby, it's a 3-bedroom permit. You can only marketed as 3 bedrooms per the health department rules. Just because they're using the bonus room as a bedroom does not mean you can market it that way. And it is a constant educational battle with the real estate professionals. I love that you keep talking about the education piece and the professionalism piece. So in your, in your opinion, you've been in the business a long time, brokering a lot of agents, in charge of a lot of transactions. What's the single biggest hiccup you see in our education in the professional side that you would fix today if you had a magic wand?
There's no way I could narrow it down to one. There's no way I can narrow it down to one. Okay.
Steve Jobs behind you. Steve Jobs was able to focus or we would never have little evil devices in our hands. So one.
So, you know, I believe in having an open mind. Wanting to continuously grow our knowledge and amazingly manage to offend any person that's on camera with the posters in my office, which is a horrible place to be these days.
I can't see who's in the middle.
The Wolf of Wall Street.
Oh, that's a great one.
We got to have a little bit of business, you know, in there.
You have Wolf of Wall Street. How does that offend anybody?
I— well, if you watch the movie, it's pretty offensive, but if you study Jordan Belfort, you know, this man lost everything, everything because of his actions, because of his mistakes, manages to come back sober and do it all over again. That's what I respect. Uh, and so, you know, there are inspirations that we have in this world. Obviously Steve Jobs, the ones You know, you and I encompass the ones that think they're crazy enough to change the world or the ones that usually do. And then you have someone, you know, like Elon Musk, who has risked everything over and over again to improve the world. And so, you know, that's what I encompass. And so, you know, all right. So I'm trying to get back to the— if you could really change something with the agents, one of the— here's the main thing for me. Our number one issue in this industry is not the lawsuits. Our number one issue in this industry is public perception.
Agree.
That has been built over and over and over again. And agents don't understand that every single interaction you have with the public or any other agent or any affiliate is an example of our public perception. How you behave, how you talk to another agent, how you talk to a lender or title person, How you treat any member of the public is one more brick in that wall of public perception. And, and one of the things blows my mind is how much agents take that for granted as to how sensitive the public is to how they're treated. And then I'll see agents that treat their clients fantastically, but the way that they talk to each other kills me. We have a major issue in professionalism. It's not even really ethics in our business. I don't care whether you're a REALTOR® member or not. To me, it hasn't made any difference as to what I see come across as violations. We got to do better.
I love it.
We have to do better. Because that's what— and especially the newer agents coming on board, younger agents, there is a massive gap. In communications education and understanding of professionalism. So I teach, like, I created a 24-page workbook in a huge business development class that just breaks down. So, okay, well, how much money do you want to make? Okay, how many closings are you going to have to have? Translates into how many showings, how many open houses, how much advertising, you know, and I break it down and say, okay, month by month, Goal by goal. How are you planning on getting there? What is your brand? Who are you? How are you differentiating yourself? Because I mean, nothing kills me more than agents constantly posting under contract in 24 hours, close days, that, that is not going to build your business. Nobody cares. How are you showing the public who you are as a person and why they would want to work with you?. And so I teach that and we need to get more back to basics. It drives me nuts. When you and I were growing up, our local agents were the community leaders. They sponsored the Little League teams. They were throwing candy from the parade floats. You know, they were there all the time in our community. What happened? And we need to get back to that.
This happened. It's made us incredibly lazy. And we think there's a replication of the in-person interactions that you mentioned, because my dad, as a real estate agent, he got his license in '78. He sponsored our ball teams all the way through, and he was always a coach and the sponsor. And what did I do when I got in? Started coaching and sponsoring, because you do want to emulate the best practices. And I do think the most successful agents, when you look around the country, they are so much more than an image on the internet. They are visible in the community, whether they're perfect or not. And then you go into this public perception piece. Why is it that so many agents feel it's okay to go to certain Facebook groups that shall remain nameless, like the Real Estate Masterminds, and they go in there and they just smack talk some other agent in their market, and then they wonder why nobody respects them? Well, we've always said that if you point at somebody, there's 4 fingers pointing back at you. We forget that general necessity of our colleagues when we are tearing them down. But you also mentioned the title companies and the lenders too. I have found that in talking to my preferred lenders that there's a lot of agents that are aggressively mean to their mortgage professionals. Wonder why they can't get their calls returned in a timely manner. Well, maybe, maybe you shouldn't be a jerk to them because your client bought furniture when they shouldn't have. That's not the lender's fault. That is a communication gap. So it's, man, it all, it all does add up and it can be.
And you and I are both into fitness, which I think is necessary to be successful, having discipline like that. And we have a, you know, let's extend that image issue. We're known as the day drinkers.
Well, and then share memes about each other online and they think it's cute. It's not cute. Exactly. You're denigrating your profession just because you think somebody won't see it. Screenshot everything that's visible on the internet. But to your point, I made a video about I think agents should dress more professionally and it might be the most fisticuffs comment thread I've ever had on one of my—
Well, it is funny you should say it because I started my career at Florida.
You're in your crappy dress and they say I'm the problem. Called me a Karen and making fun of my hair. And they're making fun of me for saying I think we should hold ourselves to a higher standard. And they're like, well, it doesn't work in my market. It doesn't work here. It doesn't work there. And I'm thinking, oh my gosh, you're defending lowering the standards in a—
Exactly.
When we are under attack. And I do think the best agents are wildly professional, wildly amazing, so necessary. But here we are undercutting ourselves, ourselves, not the public undercutting us. This is not coming from Catchmark. This is coming from us. What are we doing?
Well, it's dress for the job you want, not the job you have. And it is, you can see a huge difference in the most successful agents versus not. And like I said, I started my career in Florida where every male realtor I saw was in shorts, a Tommy Bahama shirt, flip-flops. That was like the common uniform of the agent there. And, you know, I just always had issues with that. It's so funny today when I go back, I just cringe every time I see it. And, but the ones that were really successful didn't dress like that. And, you know, we can start a whole conversation into the barrier of entry being way too low for our profession. I believe everyone should have an opportunity. Okay, to get into real estate, when I say barrier to entry, I'm not talking about money. I'm talking about effort. I'm talking about education. I mean, think of how many professions in this world you have to have a master's degree just to think about entering, to be a schoolteacher. But we can take, you know, in Florida it was like 72 hours to start. And you're talking about multimillion dollar deals with a few hours of education, a certificate. I think the expectations of our industry are too low, and I think we need to raise them. And boy, I think, you know, I can't wait to hear the comments on this. But, you know, as someone who has managed a huge volume of agents and transactions, education is number one to me. It's just not— the barrier to entry is too small. You have too many part-timers, too many people who are not here to be serious. And I think that injures us.
Well, the thing I would disagree with you on is that I love the low barrier to entry simply because there are so many wildly smart people out there who are terrible at taking tests. And so they weren't cut out for college. They're not cut out for advanced degrees, not because they're not intellectually capable, but because, well, first of all, maybe they don't have the money to chase those degrees. And second of all, maybe they don't want the indoctrination that comes with it. But third, they may just not be test takers. And they're so good in real estate. And I love that if you come from a challenged family background where you just don't have the money, you didn't come from the money, you could scrape up a few hundred bucks, get a suit at Goodwill, and with the discipline and the drive and the hustle and the desire, you can make real estate be a wildly successful business. But that's the person you're talking about who's chasing the education. They're chasing the opportunity. They have the discipline to go do it. They just don't have the educational background. But I love that this is the place they could start a small business without a $100,000 outlay. That being said, I wish we had an apprentice part. So a low barrier to get in, but then you're required to apprentice with somebody to be shepherded in learning how to conduct the transaction so you don't screw up somebody else's finances. I think there could be some modifications made.
And well, and you're talking about, you know, there's no uniformity as to the requirements. So in Colorado, it's over 160 hours of education. In Florida, it starts at 72. And so I think that there's a uniformity there, but you hit on a huge point. It's the apprenticeship. And now it's going back to me discussing that race to the bottom. Brokerages have become a numbers game.
Oh yeah.
How many agents can we get? The bar keeps getting lowered for this. And so once these agents have their licenses ready to go, there's a massive diminishment in the requirements once they get the licenses and that apprenticeship, which is so important. That decides their whole future is the support that they get. But if an agent, you know, you've got a lot of agents out there that want to do well, that want to continue learning and be really good. But then there's another, like I said, that whole low barrier to entry part for the part-timer. Who aren't taking it seriously, who think that they're going to get a quick, easy paycheck that are not interested in that, that ends up being an issue for me as a broker.
But then by the same token, we have some part-timers that are very competent, very ethical, very knowledgeable. They may be a single parent. They're trying to keep the bills paid while they get into the business. So there's, there's no, there's no good answer to everything here, but I will say I sure wish the consumer would get involved in this conversation because the consumer should be asking better questions. And we are always, I think, going to have a wild disparity between the best in the game and the worst in the game. And there's a ton in the middle that I call the mediocre agents that I think could be elevated if they were affiliated with the right kind of broker and if they had the right mindset. So they don't have to be mediocre. They could find a different path. And there are some that choose mediocrity. And if the public would ask better questions, they wouldn't choose the lower-end agents or the mediocre agents. They would choose somebody who's got a different mindset. But the consumer's not asking any questions. And I think this goes to the frustration so many have where a good agent has done all the work for somebody. They've gotten all the paperwork signed. They've done everything to the top level of what somebody should expect. And then at the last minute, the consumer yanks it up and says, I'm not going to use you because my brother-in-law just got his license. So I'm going to use him instead. That doesn't fall on the agent. It's not their fault. And we can't force the consumer to obviously pick the better agent. But how do we train the consumer to say, look, you're attacking us in the public sphere. You act like all agents suck, but you're the one that picked your inexperienced brother-in-law over the best in the game when you had that opportunity. So I think that we probably are not completely to blame for the challenges, but I don't know how to solve for that because—
and I agree with that. I agree with that completely. And you're right. And when I— we have a massive spectrum here. And like I said, there are part-time agents who choose to be part-time that do a great job and that are wonderful. You do have, you know, I, I was a, I got into real estate because I had a special needs child and I literally couldn't keep not those normal 9 to 5 hours anymore. I had to do something more. I went to real estate school, woke up at 4 in the morning and did classes every morning to, and then worked full-time and eased my way into it. And yes, I agree, there's a spectrum to everything on this. And you're right, I can't think of how many listings I lost when I first started out because I would go do all the work, do the CMAs, provide this great listing presentation and say, okay, I think I can get $760,000 or something for your home. And the next person they interview is like, oh, Shelley, they'll say, oh, Shelley, you know, said we get $760,000. Oh, I'll get you $770,000. I lose.
They haven't done the work.
They're just saying they're just blowing out whatever number they can to steal the listing. And, and so when I've talked to sellers, I always say, look here, I'm doing this work. Any agent you interview needs to do this work for you. Do not share what another potential listing agent has shared with you. Make them all independently do this work and then you pick from that.
And I'll—
and I've learned to warn them. That, you know, you have to know your value in this business. And especially that's coming up huge is your value proposition, especially as a buyer's agent these days. And, you know, that's coming around. One of the big things I've done for my agents this last year is create a buyer agent value statement, create talking points when you're talking to buyers and sellers, know your value as an agent, what you bring to the table. And like I said, you have to teach consumers to ask these questions. Any person that's potentially listing their home needs to interview multiple agents to find the best fit for them that they feel is going to be the best asset, get them the best net.
I mean, as much as I get tired of Dave Ramsey's advice, he's right on that because he sits there on his radio show every single day telling people, interview at least 3 agents so you can get a different feel for it. And as much as I want the public to pick the best possible agent, the underlying piece that the consumer's gonna go with, they're going with that likability factor, that fit factor where they feel comfortable. And so as an agent, you've also got to be honing your interpersonal skills while you're doing the real estate data and the paperwork piece. And I think this is an opportunity for our younger agents because the interpersonal skills of the public are diminishing thanks to these nasty little devices. Devices. So if they keep themselves wonderful eye contact and ability to mirror, well, that will be the REALTOR® that has a great future. And again, nothing to do with code of ethics, REALTOR® status, nothing to do with the trade association, everything to do with you, the individual agent, or you, the individual consumer, and what you're doing to ask those questions. Now, Shelley, if somebody wants to follow up with you and find out more about the work that you're doing with the MLS or what you're doing to build a brokerage in Colorado, how is the best way for them to to you?
Well, I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Facebook, I'm on Instagram, Shelly Vincent. And then also my email is shellevincent@mac.com. I'm an old school Mac gal.
Well, you don't have Steve on the wall behind you, so his ghost is smiling down on you. And friends, all of that, all of the handles for Shelly are in the show notes for this episode. So feel free to connect and ask her questions and find a space where you can learn how to network with the people who really understand the business, because that's another way to elevate your professionalism is the people with whom you spend time. Shelly, thank you so much for coming on the show and for giving us some more insights into the world of real estate.
Well, Leigh, thank you for having me.
All right, guys, make sure you subscribe over here, check out some other episodes, and say something nice or spicy about Shelly in the comments. We're big girls, we can take it. And most importantly, We'll see you next time. So if you found value in this episode, please like and subscribe to this channel, turn on the bell and catch another amazing episode by clicking above. Crazy Shit in Real Estate is also available on all of your normal podcast apps. So if that's where you like to hang out, go find me, click subscribe, and most importantly, leave me a review that says you think I'm awesome, my guests are awesome, or this content is just exactly what you were looking for. And then by the way, if there's something you need, you want to learn about something, you can comment below anytime. You can also send me a direct message if you need to remain anonymous, no judgment. But anyway, I'll only judge if you forget to subscribe and click. I'll see you next time.
