Why Engineers Are Vital To Foundation Inspections

I'm Leigh Thomas Brown. This is Crazy Shit in Real Estate, and today we're going to talk dirt or soil or engineering or all the above. And the things that you thought were boring in the 9th grade are wildly important to your real estate transaction. Bob Brown is going to talk to us a little bit. He's known as the Dirt Whisperer. So enjoy this conversation, take a few notes, and I'll see you on the other side. So are you Robert, Bob, or RK? Because I have all 3 names on my calendar. All I know is the Dirt Whisperer. I know what that is, but what's your What name you go by?

Well, so my name is Robert Kimball, which is where the RK comes from.

Oh.

And I go by Bob, but when I went to publish my book, my publisher said, you can't use Bob. You know, if people Google Bob Brown, they'll never find you. There's too many. And Robert's not any better. Matter of fact, Robert Brown, a geotech out of Southern California, published a foundation repair book for geotechs, not for the public, many years ago. And so there's already that mix-up. So I had to pick something that would differentiate myself somehow for my book. So here we are.

And did it work? Did you become a number one bestseller on Amazon?

It did. It became a number one bestseller, and I've gotten 5 awards for it.

Oh, from whom? From, like, the Realtors Land Institute? Did they give you one? The RLI?

No, that's a good idea. I haven't applied to them. Uh, that's a really good—

That's my favorite real estate organization of all the different groups inside real estate, the Realtors Land Institute. Those people actually talk about things that matter and they know each other and they have a very strong grasp on the need for better education inside the specialty, which as you know, that's a big challenge inside real estate on the whole. Somebody gets a license and they think they're suddenly a specialist in everything, which means you're a specialist in absolutely nothing.

And that would be for a book award.

I mean, I'd reach out to them for everything. You don't know what they give awards for. Realtors make up awards for everything, as you know.

Yeah, I'm trying to remember. I got a Titan Award, Firebird. Look on my website. What was the other? Oh, yeah, Pinnacle. Yeah, let me see here. I think my website is current with all of my awards.

But anyway, tell my audience where you're located. Give them a little bit of your background. We'll go to the book here in a second.

Okay, so I'm out of Phoenix, Arizona, and I owned a foundation repair business for 35 years here. I graduated from Arizona State University in 1984 in both architecture and in finance slash real estate. I could have easily gotten the real estate, but they said, ah, take a few more finance courses, it's more prestigious. And I'm like, all right, whatever. So I did that. And so I've sold my company last year. Last December, and I'm sort of retired, but not really because I've done so many of these interviews like this for the book. I've got software and patents that I have engineers and contractors using. There's just a whole bunch of things going on. So it seems like I'm always running, running, running, running, running for this, that, and the other. You know, it's just like the only difference is I work from home now instead of driving into the office to work. That's about the only difference, really.

So now, if you did foundation repair for 35 years, would you say that the quality of construction has deteriorated in the time that you spent working on foundations? Do you see more foundation problems in newer builds than in older builds? Totally broad brushing here because I know it depends on—

Well, it's difficult to say because we typically avoided homes that were within the statute of repose. So the statute of repose in Arizona is, is 8 years. And if you discover it in the 8th year, you get an additional 9th year. So effectively 9 years. And I typically avoided those because all we would do is get pulled on to go into meetings for free consulting, and then it would never result in any work for, for my foundation repair company. And it was just a waste of time. So we quit, we quit pursuing those. And all we did is just basically piss off the home builders anyway, which is not a good thing because those guys are traded on Wall Street. They have pretty much unlimited funds in the Phoenix area. They switched to post-tension foundations in about 2003, and those have a different set of problems than the old stem wall, but, and there's less of an inventory of them. I mean, the inventory of stuff that's older than 20 years is, you know, 90% of the inventory that's out there. So it's really hard, you know, to kind of see where, how the time is different. I will say the things I'm hearing scare me. I'm hearing, you know, they started out with post-tension slabs being 9 inches thick, then they went to 7. Now they're doing 'em at 5 inches thick, a monolithic slab with no ribs, 5 inches thick with cables in there. That just sounds insane to me.

There's no ribs in yours?

No, they— in Arizona they use what they call a, a uniform thickness post-tension slab. Instead of cables top and bottom, you have a thick slab— used to be thick— with a cable right in the middle, which I think is almost worthless, but whatever. So I think it could be a lot of problems in the future, but we'll just have to kind of see how, how it works out.

Well, good, then whoever bought your business has job security forever. Congratulations.

Yeah. Yeah. The problem is when I sold the business, I also had an engineering company, forensic engineering company that sold at the same time. And their, their obligation was to continue with that for 3 years. Well, they, they canned the whole engineering department, all 15 people within 3 months.

How was that?

I don't know. They just, they don't know how it works. You know, it's, you know, they're used to do, you know, I was bought out by a company that owns a bunch of foundation repair companies and they know how to do business their way. Right? And so they don't want to bother learning something and solving problems with something they don't understand.

They just want to fix the clients.

They just, yeah. And frankly, the model in the industry out there is what they're used to and it's what everybody else is used to. And that is, hey, we don't really need to figure this out. We're just going to send out a sales guy and, you know, he's going to sell a bunch of stuff and we're going to go in and fix a bunch of stuff. And, you know, it may not be exactly right, but We're making money.

So back to them laying off the engineers. I mean, that's the reason that I, as a realtor, and how I've trained my agents is if you have something that looks questionable on a report, you don't call the repair guy first. You call the engineer. You spend the money on the engineer so you know exactly what to do, and then you get your bids. But I find a lot of agents skip that step because they don't want to spend $1,000 on the property.

That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

You people forget this is the biggest financial instrument most people will ever own or try to own with the mortgage. And then they want to cut corners on things like a cracked foundation, which might be fine, but I want an engineer to tell me that who knows exactly the correct answers before we go calling any of the foundation repair people to look at it.

Crazy, right? Right. Here's what happens. And you're way ahead of most realtors on this. But here's what happens.

My daddy raised me this way, so I got trained, right?

Yeah, that's, that's excellent. But, but here's the problem. Here's what, here's what happens to most realtors. The home inspector notices they got a problem right now. There's 2 days left in the inspection window. Now what? You know, it's impossible to get a quality report in 2 days, you know. So, so realtors, first of all, need to put in a clause that says, hey, if the home inspector discovers this, we get an extra 10-day window, right? Nobody does that. And that would be the big help. Now what they do now, all of a sudden they're, they got, oh, I got 10 days left. I don't know anybody. I'll just Google foundation repairs to see what, see what comes up. Right? And of course, who comes up? The foundation repair companies, right?

Yeah.

They're good at marketing. And Basement Systems did my marketing. They have an in-house marketing agency called The Treehouse. They have 100 people just in the internet side alone. I mean, it's a monster. There's no way a little 3-person engineering firm can compete with that. It, it just doesn't happen. So the realtor calls a foundation repair company and he comes to the house and what does he do? He wants to sell a big job. So he finds, you know, oh, you need like 25 piers. That's, you know, $60,000. Thank you very much. You know, well, now what happens? Well, you know, the buyer, you know, heads for the hills, you know, and the seller, he can't ask his listing agent to lie about this problem. Right. So what does he do? He fires the listing agent, cocks it all up, paints it, hides it, and hires a new realtor and doesn't tell him anything. So both the listing agent and the buying agent lose their deal because they called the wrong person. Now it might need $60,000, but I doubt it. You know, it might just need a grading and drainage. It might need something. It might need nothing at all. Might just be minor movement that, you know, is not a big deal and engineer can put a seal to that effect, but you got to spend that money. And who wants to spend $900 on something they're not sure they're going to buy, right? That's a tough sell, but it's better than being stuck with a $60,000 bill, you know, or, you know, or not buying the house because you panicked over $60,000.

That should have been $12,000.

Right. And now you buy the house down the street where somebody's already been through the process and covered it up. And you get stuck with the bill 3 years later when you start discovering it.

And you can't blame the agents because they didn't have any way of knowing if they had bad information.

Yeah, if the cracks are all covered up and everything's painted, the agent's not going to figure it out. They're not engineers. They're not doing a floor level survey. They're not, you know, they're not checking all the deeper signs of problems, checking the windows.

I mean, if you see a crack, you're supposed to take note of it. But if you don't see it, right? Supposed to go down there with a flashlight and look for mismatched caulk.

No, you can't ask realtors to do that. That's the tool and tuxedo rule, right? If you can't do the inspection with the tuxedo on, then you're not responsible for it. Or if you need a tool, you're not responsible for it, right? You need a screwdriver or pliers or flashlight. You need those kind of tools to discover something, then the realtor is not responsible. That's the, that's the tool and tuxedo rule.

So in all your years of doing that foundation work, was there ever a something that you felt like realtors Realtors could have noticed? Was there something that you felt they were missing that you wish they'd been trained on? What's the dead giveaway that you wish people looked for?

Well, okay, other than the obvious, which by the way, I mean, I teach CEU classes here in Arizona for Realtors, and what I say to them is, first of all, if you have a crack, never opine. I've heard Realtors say things like, oh, don't worry about the door not closing in that crack, it's just cosmetic, we're going to get that fixed. And I'm like, Oh, you never want to say that. You know, they, you're just leaving yourself wide open. Other than that, to your point, one thing that people don't check very often is windows. Okay. People sand down the tops or bottoms of doors to make them close. And sometimes you can look at them and go, you know, that doesn't really look very square, but it opens and closes. That's kind of weird. You know, well, uh, that sort of is a kind of a red flag that something moved at some point, right? But windows, people don't check the windows. And if they're, if you like, if they're horizontal sliders and you open it up a little bit and it's pinched at the top and an inch wide at the bottom or something, that's a problem.

Danger, Will Robinson, danger.

Yeah, that's a problem. It's exactly right.

So talk to me a little bit about The Dirt Whisperer. What got you to write that book? And what was the, what was the burning passion you wanted to share with the world?

So I've been in concrete repair for a lot of years and back around 2000, or I think 1999, RamJack, which they're a very reputable foundation repair contractors, they kind of recruited me and said, hey, you know, we're looking for somebody in Phoenix, you know, would you like to be our, you know, exclusive distributor, blah, blah, blah. Okay, great. They basically taught me the business and At first, I just kind of, you know, did what I was told, you know, follow their procedures of, you know, whatever. And but I knew a lot of engineers and I've been involved in the engineering profession for a long time with my degree in architecture. So I talked to them and, you know, they started saying, well, Bob, you know, that's a heat problem and it doesn't really do any good to put in piers when, you know, when it's a heat problem. And I'm like, what do you mean? How can you tell the difference? You know? And I was totally ignorant and I just learned the hard way. I, you know, I took their clues and I started researching them and listening to them and talking to these guys and going to seminars and reading books. Pretty soon I started to realize, hey, this is a lot more complicated than I thought it was. And then I started realizing, well, shoot, you know, I got, I got 10 guys, sales guys out in the field. And the only training they've gotten is a 2-hour training or maybe a 2-day training from a single source supplier that's basically telling them, hey, when you see cracks in the house, that means it needs piers, so put 'em in. And that's about the extent of their training. And all of the networks do that, every one of 'em. And I just started realizing this isn't right. And not only that, but these guys are paid on 100% commission for everything they find. That's not a good idea.

You know, they're going to find something they're paid to.

Yeah, exactly. It kind of reminds me of in the medieval days where they would send out these guys on a commission to find witches. Right. You know, and burn them on the stake. How many did they find? A whole lot. Because they got a commission for everyone. You know, the same kind of thing. And so, you know, engineers, by the way, by law cannot accept a job on a commission basis.

Really?

Right.

The Arizona state law?

I think it's just about that way in every state, and it's in their ethics and everything else. They either have to be paid by the hour or by the job.

Okay. So that's all— is that be a PE? Is that a PE?

That's right. Yeah. Okay.

Uh-huh.

Yeah. And so, so, you know, the problem is, and, and, and the other problem is I discovered that sales guys are not regulated by anybody. Engineers are regulated by their, by their state boards, right? Foundation repair sales guys, they could tell people that the moon is made out of green cheese and nobody holds them responsible for it. And not only that, but they say a lot of things verbally and nothing in writing, which is then it's really hard to hold them responsible, right? So, so I figured this out and I started an engineering company to basically handle the diagnosis part. And I built a whole system around keeping sales and engineering completely separated from each other.

Is there a class that you took on the internet that's been good for you? I want to hear all about it. Yes.

Okay. So I am in the progress of taking your How to Dominate During a Recession class and oh my gosh, it's just absolutely the best. It's really helpful to understand and to know what it was like during the other recession and how to proceed. But also at the same time, in the back of your mind, remembering that every recession is not the same. So you have to be prepared, but you have to be flexible. So understanding, educating during this downtime in our market, educate, educate, educate, getting on top of that and being prepared. So, you know, take as many classes as you can, get involved with your with your association, just really, you know, diving in has been— I'm so excited to get it completed. But yeah, you— it's a great class. Highly, highly recommend.

I'm so glad that you're finding it helpful. And I love what you said too, that every recession is different because whether the media wants to call it one or not, we know the economy is not feeling perfect right now. And when things don't hit, that's when we do more education for ourselves so we can give that education to our clients.

And so thank you.

For those kind words. I can't wait to get the full review when you finish it. And by the way, friends, if you follow the link here, we might have a discount code to get you involved in that class as well. So you can join Mackenzie and get some education in your yoga pants in the evenings while you— so thank you for that kind recommendation. I'm so glad you're enjoying the fast.

Yeah, you're welcome.

And I tried to get other people to follow my example. I tried for years. You know, I speak at the National Foundation Repair Association meeting. I've done it for like 8, 9 years I've, I've spoken there and they all say, yeah, you're, you're right. I mean, we should be doing that, but it's too hard. We can't figure it out. It's just too difficult. And I'm like, guys, it's, it's not rocket science. But you know, anyway, they, nobody would do it. And you know, when I sold the company and I thought, well, you know, at least there's one company that will be doing it. Well, nope, not even that company now. So I decided that the best model really is to help engineers offer this service. And there's not very many engineers that do it. I've been building a directory because people, you know, I have a pretty decent following and they're always asking me, okay, I'm in Wisconsin or I'm in Alabama or I'm in Boston, who can I call? You know, and I'm like, I got to find some people, you know. And so I started doing research and I'm about halfway done. It's a lot of work, but I think there's maybe 50, 75 residential forensic engineers That's not very many for 50 states.

Uh, total across all 50 states.

Yeah, there's not.

And, you know, places like retiring, so that's at least one you're going down.

Where, where, where are you at?

I'm in Concord, North Carolina.

Yeah, North Carolina has a few. North Carolina has a few. Texas has a few. Kansas has a surprising number of them. Places like North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming, even like Michigan, Missouri. There's just, I mean, they're lucky if they have one. They're really lucky if they have one. Arizona has really only one right now. I'm trying to get, you know, I know a bunch of them. I'm trying to get some recruited. Well, you know, engineers, most of them do their work in new design for infrastructure work, you know, freeways, dams. You know, sewer systems, water systems, you know, all the, all this, all the big jobs. And they have this misperceived concept that it's very risky. And it is if you're doing new construction for residential because you have all those class action lawsuits. But it's not to do forensic work one at a time for homeowners. It's not risky at all. We never got sued even once. And I know lots of engineers who, who've done it for 20 years and have, and only sued what, once maybe or something, you know, and it's in sequential dollar amount, you know. You know, and so, you know, you have to change all these perceptions. They're terrible at marketing. You have to help them market. You know, I've developed the software to help speed up their time, you know, and make them more, more, more cost effective. But there's, you just gotta convince them to do it and it's tough, you know? And then helping people find them, that's the other half of it, right? So it's my mission to try to change the whole industry to fix it. And I have this vision that, that someday every time there's a real estate transaction, just like you hire an appraiser and a, and a home inspector, you, you hire a foundation inspector because now you've got that data from 5 or 10 years ago that you can compare it to. Now you've got really good, the floor elevation data and the crack data and all that. Now you can compare it and see how it moved over time. That's super valuable data. Long ways to get to that point. And I got, I got to walk before I run. And the first thing is to just try to get to, just try to make an industry. First of all, the one that doesn't hardly even exist at all.

Right.

Right.

So inventory, but, you know, think about the number of kids coming out of school that don't know where to land. And there's so many opportunities like this, a niche business that they could be highly successful, be entrepreneurial and still do engineering work, but they never heard of it.

Exactly. Exactly. Matter of fact, I taught a class for one of my professor friends about 2 months ago at Arizona State. And I, you know, that was the topic of my class is like, hey, you guys should think about making a difference in the world, doing something that's worthwhile, that's really needed. You know, the problem is, honestly, you have to serve a 2-year internship with somebody before you can get your PE license. Well, you're going to go work for one of these companies for 2 years and then, then Engineers are not big risk takers, right? Well, now I got to leave a steady job and go like figure out how to like be an entrepreneur. That's not very—

the one, the risk-taking, not his talent. I've been in the same job for 27 years because engineers don't do change.

Yeah, I have a friend who is married to an engineer and she says to me, Bob, it's crazy. He has all of his shirts lined up in the closet. And he changes them out each spring and each fall to long sleeve and short sleeve, and they go into the spare closet.

He's perfectly happy with that. He's fine.

Yeah.

So in doing the research for your book, was there anything that you never knew in all of your 35 years, or is the book really just built on your personal experiences?

Mostly built on my personal experiences. You know, one of the things that I discovered is that, uh, and engineers still take umbrage with this, meet with me, but it's true. Most of them don't know how to do a residential forensic investigation. They show up and take lots of pictures and opine and whatever, but that's not what you really need. I mean, that doesn't— I mean, that, that's, that's helpful, but you need a lot more than that. And especially people call structural engineers, you know, structural engineers are not the right guys. This is a soil problem. You really want to be calling it a forensic geotech engineer. You know, you call out a structural engineer and he says, oh yeah, well, you've got cracks, but, you know, your structure is not structurally deficient. Well, yeah, we knew that. We knew the house wasn't ready to fall down. You know, these are serviceability issues, you know, the functional issues, you know, there's still huge problems that need to be solved, but that doesn't mean that the house is ready to fall down. And, and so then you ask the structural engineer, oh, well, could this be a problem? Oh, yeah. If the house keeps moving, you know, it could be a structural problem.

And that's exactly what the report says is we can't forecast the future because the dirt may move, which means if the soil wasn't properly compacted at the beginning, You haven't solved the problem. And I love bringing this up because balancing and compacting are—

Well, it's more complicated than that. So that's exactly right. What happens is you ask the engineer, is it going to continue to move? And he's like, well, you need a geotech engineer for that. And we're like, well, okay, I just wasted all my money. I should have called the geotech to begin with. And a lot of people have this misperception about soil. They think it's one big solid contiguous mass of homogenous dirt, but in fact the dirt is laid down in layers over time. And each of those layers has different mineral contents, different densities, different affinities for water, and water moves through them differently. It's very, very complicated. And you know what? It could be compacted just fine. Matter of fact, it could be over-compact. And that happens sometimes. You get over-compact, you get over-clays that get compacted too tight and you add water to them. Guess what? You got a giant heat problem on your hands, right? And guess what? It could be that one layer is expanding and one layer is consolidating. You have to really know what you're doing with the soils, and that's why you need a geotechnical engineer. And then you can start to understand, okay, I know the geology of the area, I understand how the soils were deposited, here's what we need to watch out for in this particular niche corner area of town.

Right?

All those kinds of things that structural engineers just don't have a clue about.

And that I'm just sitting here thinking like the agents don't have the beginning of knowledge on this. And I'm thinking about where I am, which is North Charlotte. We have the red clay in some areas.

Right.

We also have bull tallow, which is what my daddy called it. Do you call it bull tallow in Arizona?

I've never heard that term.

That's the yellow clay. And that's just, you can't, put a septic field in because it doesn't drain.

Yeah, right. Doesn't go anywhere.

Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. So within one parcel, you may have 3 different types of soil. That's right. What do builders do? Bring in topsoil for an inch and a half and try and hide the bull tallow and the red clay underneath. And it's— you just don't know on day one what 5 years from now is going to look like, or 10 years. And We desperately need some CE on this topic because, good gosh, I mean, the Realtors Land Institute people might know, but that's a small affiliate group and a residential agent doesn't know to ask the developer about or a builder.

And at least in Arizona, you know, in my opinion, they don't do a thorough enough investigation on new construction. You know, they, you know, they have 50, 75 acres and they'll go out and put a boring into 4 feet deep, you know, you know, 1 every 5 acres or something, you know, it's like, oh, it's not really very helpful. I mean, it's somewhat helpful, I guess. But, you know, I've seen a lot of problems because they just didn't really understand the soils good enough, you know.

So maybe this is an opportunity, all my listeners and viewers, wherever you are in the country operating, maybe you need to reach out to the 9th grade teacher at the high high school who's doing the geology class and ask them what they know about your soils in your area or in your state, because you may have a great resource in the educational system and then you can go from there. Once you've obtained a little bit of knowledge, I think then you call your, your geoengineer, because if you don't know the types of soil in your area, you may be getting ahead of your game. So start from square one with the education. I think that's going to be wildly important. And so Bob, if a realtor in Wyoming picks up your book, The Dirt Whisperer, is there going to be something in there that will guide them towards a better professional outcome for their clients?

For sure. I mean, the basic advice: don't call a foundation repair company. Hopefully that comes through loud and clear in the book. But there's resources in there.

Call them after you know what you're looking for.

Well, I mean, you know, here's what happens. You get a, you get a poor homeowner. They call 3 foundation repair contractors. One guy says you need 9 piers. One guy says you need 12. Another guy says you engineer 25, maybe on the other side of the house. Well, which one's right? Well, how's the homeowner supposed to know? They go with the one that they feel the most comfortable with, right? Which is what? The guy that's the best salesman, right? Which is probably the guy that's the least qualified to be an engineer because, you know, the engineers aren't salespeople by nature, right? Right. You know, it's like asking salespeople to do accounting work. It's never going to work. You know, they're two opposite personalities. And so it's just a giant mess. Now I will tell you, you said go to your, find your geology. I'll give you a little clue right here. The National Soil Conservation, NCRS, publishes a website that you can go to and find out at least some bare information about the soils in your particular area. They make a little map and you can look on the map, you know, and you can see, oh wow, there's a lot of clays in my area, you know. Or not, right? At least that's something. I mean, it's not exactly accurate. It's not perfect. And it's, you know, but it's better than nothing, right? At least it's a start and it's easy to access.

At least it gives you the vocabulary to start a conversation. Right. Bob and I are not suggesting that you lay yourself out as an expert or that you make proclamations. You heard him earlier say you shouldn't be making proclamations. But if you've done some research and you know the vocabulary, at least when you're talking to a pro, you'll have a basis for some information that can help your clients. Bob, if they want to reach out to you about the classes that you teach or about your books, what's the best way for them to find Bob Brown slash RK slash Robert Brown?

Well, the easiest way is Foundation Repair Secrets. If you'll remember that name, if you Google it, that'll be my book, that'll be my website. And in the very beginning of my book, I put a vocabulary glossary in there. That'll give you the terms that you need to talk the right talk, right? At least you'll understand, you know, what a depositional layer is or what heave is or what settlement is or what clays are, all that kind of stuff. Compaction, right? The very basic things are in there and it will help you understand it. There's a whole lot to learn. By all means, what you should do is try to find an expert in your area and get to know them., right? Have a relationship with them. Hey, market yourself as a differentiator that you have good knowledge and good contacts and good experts that you work with that can help you with these problems. And if you're a listing agent, go ahead and, and, and call these guys ahead of time. Get a clean bill of health, get a seal on it. And if it's not, if it's not a clean bill of health, then get it fixed before the transaction starts. Then get a clean bill of health, then get a seal that says everything's been done accordingly. And now, now you don't have to worry about your seller firing you because the inspector brought up something that nobody wants to pay for, right?

It's just a chance to be the bigger professional. And no matter how long you've been in real estate, y'all, there's always something you can learn and be stronger in your game. And as Bob says, make sure you're marketing that as a differentiator in the market. Not that you're an expert or that you're special, but just say you've gotten educated and you're continuing to, and you know the expert. That's always—

That's right. Know the experts.

Know the source.

That's right. Know the expert. That's the key.

That's what your list is for. So get one of these pros on your list. Right. We really appreciate you coming on the show and giving us some different perspectives to think about. I know I'm picking up your book for training for my agents, and I know they're going to be excited to have another perspective that they can bring to the table.

So I'm very grateful for your information and I'm happy to do a Zoom training.

Well, there you go. All right, guys, you heard that. You can Zoom with Bob, you can buy his book, but most importantly, you can be a better and more professional agent if you'll just add to your tool belt. And by the way, if you're a consumer who was watching this, this might be a good question to ask the agents you're interviewing if they have done some research so that you will know your property is being represented in a really well-rounded way. Bob, we're glad you came on the show and hope you have a great success in bringing more information to the masses and building out a brand new industry niche.

Awesome. Well, I had a lot of fun here and I thank you very much for giving me the time. It's been a great time.

All right, guys, make sure you type something you learned in the comments below or say something nice to Bob. Follow the show for more and we'll see you next time on the show.

Awesome.

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