#128 Peernovation & peer group learning, leadership as balancing challenge & support, and why you need to reevalutate your beliefs, with Leo Bottary.

If you're getting value from this show, my weekly email is where listening becomes doing. It turns each week's episodes into one clear actionable step, so you move forward, not just feel inspired. Every Thursday, free in your inbox. Link in the show notes. Welcome to the Personal Development Mastery Podcast. I'm Agui Karamidas, and my mission is to inspire you to rise up, grow, stand out, and take action towards the next level of your life. I interview leaders, influencers, entrepreneurs, authors, exceptional people who can and will inspire you to improve your life. Tune in for 2 episodes each week and make sure you subscribe to the podcast to get the episodes as soon as they are released. In today's show, I am delighted to speak with Leo Bottary. Leo, you are the founder of PeerNovation, a company and community which embraces a simple central theme: the power of we begins with you. You are an award-winning author of 3 books, and your latest one is called Peer Innovation: What Peer Groups Can Teach Us About Building High-Performing Teams. You are also a keynote speaker, podcaster, adjunct professor, columnist for CEO World magazine, and a thought leader in peer group learning. Leo, welcome to the show. It's a real pleasure to speak with you today.

It's wonderful to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

Leo, I would like to start with some background, some element of your story. And I read somewhere you were talking about your road from me to we. So would you like to share a little bit of background and so that the conversation is more relevant?

Sure. One of the things you're talking about there, I know the context of that from the book, is I talked about the fact that when I went to graduate school and I went to graduate school a little later. I graduated from college in 1983 and didn't go back to graduate school until 2006. Um, in my early years of being in high school and college, the idea of collaborative learning would have been called cheating, right? This idea of people working together in groups and teams and all this kind of stuff, uh, just wasn't really done to the extent it's done today. So when I was in graduate school and had to work as part of a learning team, that was a real learning experience for me in and of itself. So it was a place where I really understood really how to work with others in that kind of setting, how to appreciate the gifts that other people brought to the table, and how to collaborate in a way that I think really set me up for a job I would eventually take with Vistage in 2010. Vistage assembles and facilitates peer advisory groups for CEOs and business leaders in about 20 countries around the world. So it's interesting because I remember joining that company and people thinking, well, it kind of takes a long time to kind of see what peer groups are all about and how they work and what the concept's like. And I thought to myself, I got this like right away because it was so similar to what my experience was in graduate school and how these teams work together and how groups work together and how powerful they are. The difference between being groups and teams being a group tends to come together so that people leave that experience or participate in that experience for the purpose of individual benefit, right? So CEO peers come together so they can help themselves be better leaders and, you know, and help their organizations as well. Teams, however, tend to contribute to a shared work product or work together to like win a sports championship or something like that that only a team can do together. And I think so my journey from me to we really began with that graduate school experience and has since evolved over time between being part of Vistage between 2010 and 2016. And since leaving the company in late 2016, working now as of just this week with over 200 CEO peer groups where I've delivered workshops that help them try to maximize the value of the experience.

That's great. Leo, I would like to take a little step back now, and I would like to ask you, for someone who has heard the word peer group, and obviously they might have a vague idea of what it means, can you give your own simple explanation of the peer group? Peer group learning as definitions, just for, you know, to set a—

Absolutely. So let's talk about a CEO peer group, right? What does that look like and why do they come together? So let's say in the case of a Vistage group or different, you know, organizations run different peer groups from around the world, right? CEOs come together and the first thing is they share this common challenge of sitting in that chair and making decisions for the entire organization. So to be around a table with people who share that common challenge is number one, right? So they can kind of share ideas and experiences and learn from one another. Second, they want to have shared values about what it means to be part of a group, you know, that they're not just there, it's not a spectator sport, you know, you don't just sit back and take in everyone else's ideas, you contribute as well. And it's a very, you know, mutual process in that regard. And third, the diversity of experiences around the table. And those experiences come from the fact that people just, you know, are different, you know, different gender, different race, different industry backgrounds, different sectors and experiences and practice area specialties and all of that. So the idea of here are these peers, kind of people like me, who come together with the idea, as I mentioned, of how do they leave that meeting or leave that interaction with one another over the course of months and years and help them and their organizations grow. So that's essentially what peer groups do. And peer groups can take all forms, right? But in the business sense, that tends to be what it would look like.

So if I were to compare your description with a mastermind group, it sounds very similar. Are there any differences?

Very much the same. In fact, in the book Peer Innovation, I use peer advisory groups and mastermind groups and peer groups interchangeably. In terms of the conversation. Absolutely. So mastermind groups are very much that.

So the learning, if I will just say it in my own words to see how I understood what you said, that the peer group learning is the learning you get from the collective of the group by both contributing and getting answers yourself.

Absolutely. We talk about this in the book in terms of the learning-achieving cycle, that high-performing groups tend to have a robust learning-achieving cycle. What we know from social learning theory is that we learn better when we learn together, right? Josh Burson did a study in 2019 that talked about the fact— and by the way, this study squares with many other studies in this area— where when we review a piece of material one time, we're likely to remember about 28% of it for 24 to 48 hours, and then it goes down from there. If we review it a second time, the number goes to 46%. However, if we engage one another in conversation and share experiences and ideas and kind of grapple with that, content a bit, the number goes to 69%. The good news about groups is that they not only help us understand concepts better and give us a higher comfort level with it, but peer group members tend to encourage and give one another the courage to apply that learning. And when they do, and when they apply it and actually achieve positive results from it, it's a cycle they want to repeat. So this is what peer groups are particularly effective at, because oftentimes, you know, you or I may read a concept in a book and think, wow, what a great idea. But most of us are not wired necessarily to say, oh, I'm going to go implement that in my company tomorrow. That's just not typically how that's done. So this is where peer groups actually allow for taking what we learn and really, you know, you know, really as a practical matter, just operationalizing it, and you turn learning to doing.

A question as a side note: you were mentioning that study that showed how much retention there is in the memory. I think that taking notes as well or writing things down at that time increases that retention of the memory, isn't it?

Sure, yep, because you're engaging a whole other part of your brain when you are doing that. Absolutely. You know, there's another aspect of this I talk about. There's research around when people go to conferences, They basically forget 70% of what they learn in just a matter of days, and then it goes away from there. However, if people go to a conference and recognize that their greatest learning asset at the conference isn't the workshop facilitator or the keynote speaker or whatever, but it's the other attendees, right? It's engaging them in conversations about, you know, these shared experiences you're having. That's what's going to drive up the learning experience as well. So again, We really learn best when we learn together, and when we put ourselves in a position where we can commit to doing that, we can grow, you know, really, really quickly and really effectively.

I remember reading a quote in your book. It would say, "None of us is as smart as all of us," and it's so simple, but yet it describes, I think, perfectly what it What you just were saying right now.

Yeah, it was attributed in the book to Ken Blanchard, but I know it's a Japanese proverb. And yeah, there's pretty much no question about that. I've been on so many teams where, you know, I mentioned in the book, I worked for a team called MullenLowe, and it was an advertising agency, and we would put together advertising campaigns. I don't care how smart all of the individuals were in the room, the campaigns we came up with were a product of that collective intelligence, right? It was not a product of what any individual could have done if they sat in an office and did it by themselves. It just wouldn't happen. So what we're capable of doing together is truly magical.

I'll pause for a moment. If you're at a point where something needs to change, but the next step isn't clear, This is exactly what I work with. I offer a 30-minute transition mapping session to get oriented and identify one clear next step. You can book it at personaldevelopmentmasterypodcast.com/mentors. Let me ask you something slightly different, which I'm sure you know very well that, uh, Some people are hesitant to ask for help from others, and they decline, or they don't have this— they don't give themselves this opportunity because somehow— and I can relate to that because until a few years back, I used to think that asking for help is a sign of weakness. I mean, if I can't do it myself, that's how I grew up. So What are your thoughts about being able to ask for help without having any thoughts like that?

I think it's a sign of strength and a sign of resourcefulness. I think when we have assets around us in terms of other people or whatever, and we're making a conscious decision not to use those assets, that I don't think is a very effective way to approach much of what we do, right? We work hard at building relationships and building trust, and there are times where, you know, here my rule of thumb in terms of asking for help, at least from, from people, is basically I would ask them for help knowing that if they asked me for help, I would, I would have no problem reciprocating, right? So the idea of I have a trusted relationship that is close enough with that person that I will out to them and say, hey, would you mind helping me with this? Because I know if they asked me, I would absolutely be right there for them and do the same. And this is how, you know, you know, just think of the whole, you know, rise of human civilization. We did it in tribes. We did it together. We did it, you know, we weren't fighting the forces of nature alone, or we wouldn't be here. So I think it's essential that we look at asking for help as a real sign of strength and resourcefulness and not think about it as weakness at all.

What are your thoughts on competition? Competition in terms of, you know, the way of thinking that the pie is limited and you will take of mine if we are in the same field.

It's a great question. I think we need to think about how we work together to make the pie bigger. Versus fighting for our individual slice of it, right? If we have a finite understanding of what we think the pie is, then we're going to, you know, take this kind of, you know, viewpoint where we're going to be, you know, again, just fighting for this kind of limited, you know, piece here. Where if we think more in terms of abundance, you know, how do we grow the pie? How do we work together? I think a great example of this is sales teams. You know, for many companies, the idea of sales teams teams is an oxymoron. You know, they don't work together, they just happen to be in the same field and they're working in the same area, so they call them a sales team. But when you actually have sales teams where you have people who— somebody's really good at, you know, explaining a particular product or service, somebody's really good at closing, someone else is really good at prospecting— how they can help one each other be better overall at what they do and how they can work together again to grow their potential client base, you know, becomes a far more effective way. And by the way, you're not asking salespeople to help one another because they need to do it out of the goodness of their heart and to help their buddy. You're doing it because every one of you is going to make a lot more money if you're smart about how you work together and make that happen. And, you know, I think that's really what it's about. Sure.

Leo, if I were to take it down a notch, you were mentioning earlier organizations and CEOs. So tell me how much or how little of this applies to a smaller business, which is, you know, a business owner and a team of people that work under him or her.

I think it's absolutely applicable. And I think for smaller companies, growing companies, companies that are looking to scale, Making sure that you've got a really great set of core values and you're hiring the right people who enjoy psychological safety, who with a focus on productivity, where people accept personal responsibility for bringing their very best and leadership that really serves that, right? Who provides that wonderful combination of challenge and support for people. I don't think it's more important than at a time when companies are just getting started or the smaller companies and they're looking to grow and you need that level of commitment and you need need that incredible foundation that's only going to serve you better as you grow as an organization over time.

And I think it's very important, and it reflects in some ways other things, how one operates in a team, whether they are the leader or whether they are just a member of the, of the group. So I would like you to share some thoughts on maybe the difference in a group of a leader, besides the obvious, of course, and someone who is just a member, shall we say, of the team that does not lead?

Well, what's interesting is I think everyone can be called upon. Sometimes there are certain people that are leaders of the team, but there are also leaders in the team, if you think about it. So it may not be that I'm the formal leader of the team, but it may be that depending on what project we're working on at the time, that my particular special area, specialty area becomes center stage where I have to take a leadership role in driving certain activities for the team. So I think everyone oftentimes gets practice at being able to do that and participate in that. And I think it's essential, you know, as you know, in the book, it's the idea of the power of we begins with me. And it's recognizing that as a team member, how much I matter, right? This idea that I'm not there to fill a chair or just to, to fill a role. I'm there to make a difference. And how do I go about doing that? So sometimes I will be a leader of others, but I will always be a leader in terms of my own growth, my own contribution, and being effective for the team as an individual contributor, and to try to serve an example to make others better. And this is where we can lead as well. When you think about it, back to your last question too, when it comes to the, quote, competition, it's a bit of competition, but in a positive way where we model behaviors for others that set a great example that, you know, when you see all the people around you really stepping up and really being prepared, then I want to do that. I want to make sure that I show up in that same way so that I'm right there with everybody, you know, because otherwise I'm going to be left behind and I don't want to do that. So in some respects it's a bit competitive, you know, but it's competitive, I think, in a very positive, powerful way. And I think that modeling can help us all be just a little bit better.

Yeah, like in a peer group, it's like the tide rises all boats. Everyone—

you bet it does. No question about it. And, you know, yeah, it's absolutely true. And I see it in groups all the time. You know, when I see real high-performing peer groups and I see people really bringing their, you know, their best for every meeting, you know, recognizing that they may get together once a month and maybe it's for an 8-hour day. And for people who recognize that this is the only time they're ever going to have that 8 hours together, that it's going to come and go, they're either going to make the most out of it and squeeze the most valuable possible out of their time together, or they're going to come in and kind of go through the motions and the next thing you know they're going to be wondering why, gee, that meeting wasn't as good as it could have been. Why? Because again, meetings like this are not spectator sports. You get to dive in, you roll up your sleeve, you get involved. And when you do, and when everyone does that together, now you've got something going on. Now you've got a really powerful experience.

It brings me nicely to— there is another topic when you describe the framework of Paynovation, there was one of the factors was the positive culture of accountability, building a positive culture of accountability in a team. And that is something that I really would like your thoughts about because you know very well how important it is. And we have the tendency not to keep ourselves accountable. We need someone else. So, but on the other hand, it can be for some people intimidating. So please share with us your thoughts on this.

Yeah, I think what sets the stage for this is the idea about whether you as the leader consider yourself a part of the team or apart from it. So if you are a part of the team, that you're all in it together and you're all winning and you're all doing what you need to do. Now you have the role as the leader again to challenge other team members, to provide them support to be successful. But you're not on one side of the desk with them on the other, playing the blame game and having people feel like they're playing defense when they're reporting out on their KPIs or what they're doing, right?

Yeah.

So I think that's the essential difference. What you want to do is create a culture where people accept personal responsibility for being their best, and that you have those behaviors being modeled around the table, just like we talked about a moment ago. So On the team, and again, this goes back to the team that I talked about that I was part of at MullenLowe. It was an advertising agency in Boston where everybody, accountability was high, but not in a way where someone was trying to impress their boss or was concerned about KPIs so much as they were committed to one another. Everyone came to that agency and made the commitment to join Mullen because they wanted to be part of an ensemble that they believed could create the best advertising in the world. To do that, however, it isn't just that you're part of that team and it just happens by accident. You know, when you join us, a great sports team, just because you're wearing the jersey doesn't mean you're going to automatically win a championship. You are now called upon to make the kind of contribution that allows for that to happen. And so again, when you have that kind of culture, that's really what drives that. And if you accept personal responsibility for bringing your best and you are all in it together, it becomes a very healthy, inspiring inspiring way. And again, to learn and grow and constantly set a new standard of excellence for yourself. This is where the learning-achieving cycle comes into play. It's where the leadership model of the triad, which is the idea of the leader, the team, and the individual member all share responsibility for the outcome, whatever that may happen to be. It could be how profitable you are, how productive you are, how much fun you have, whatever it is. All of you play a role in it. And I think when you can set up a culture that allows for that to happen. I think that particular accountability model that I see happening in the very best peer groups all the time also is possible in high-performing teams. I've experienced it and been part of it, and I think it's rather extraordinary.

I liked that you used a couple of times the phrase taking personal responsibility, which It's a great phrase, and there is a big difference between responsibility and blame. Some people use them interchangeably, but it's completely—

it is completely different. And by the way, this idea of accepting personal responsibility, as you know, came from an article that I read for an interview of Pasi Sahlberg, who's the former director general of the school system in Finland, one of the top secondary school systems in the world. And he was being asked a lot of questions about accountability, and actually said that as accountability was being discussed in that interview, he said there is actually no direct translation for it in the Finnish language. He said for them, they view it culturally speaking from the perspective that when, you know, accountability is kind of what you're stuck with after someone's sense of personal responsibility gives way. So the preferable idea is that we all accept that we matter, right? And that we are there to make a difference and that we are going to commit to ourselves to being the very best. And if we are surrounded by people doing the same, you know, most of us, if we want to stay there and if we also want to be successful and we share the reason that we are there, right? Whether it's to, you know, potentially win that championship or to be creating the best advertising in the world, then that's what you're going to do. And, you know, I just think that it's a very healthy way to think about it. And most CEOs that I talk to about that model are thinking, wow, I would love that on my team, boy, you know. And, and there's no question, you know, and it certainly exists out there, no question about it. But in all too many companies, it's very much kind of like you described. It's about blame. It's about somebody on one side of the desk just hammering away at somebody. And at the end of the day, Employees don't love to play defense every single day. It gets tiring, it gets exhausting, it gets just debilitating, you know. So 100%.

And there was something you were saying earlier about the Finnish word that it's not— it doesn't— they don't have to have that word. And I believe it was Aristotle that said that. What he learned by philosophy was that to do what's right, not because of fear of judgment, either human judgment or divine judgment, but because it is the right thing to do. So you do that internally, not— what they say, it's what you do when no one is watching. So really, putting your best self towards the result regardless of you know, whether you will be rewarded or not. I think it's striving as a person to be the best you can. And I'm just saying that in relationship to being in a team as well. So if you're striving to be the best you can in the team, then you don't want to let anyone down. You will do really your best. I see it like that as well. Tell me if I'm right.

Oh, totally. And Aristotle, by the way, also said that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, which is why Project Aristotle from Google was named that. And, and they essentially identified as part of their research as well psychological safety as being so foundational to high-performing teams. Um, you know, we basically came to the same conclusion through a very different avenue, right? Because we were looking at peer groups and how they function, and we were looking at that very independently. And obviously it makes perfect sense if you think about it that so much of what we learned about high-performing peer groups applies to high-performing teams. And this is why, you know, I wrote Peer Innovation, because after, as I mentioned, what's now having done 200 workshops, this work has been pressure tested 6 ways to Sunday, you know, by, by thousands of people at this point. And I've also worked with cross-functional work teams on this as well. And if you think about it, cross-functional work teams and the peer advisory groups I described are very similar, right? They're there for the, the same purpose. They actually come— they have shared values around their culture, but they also have different perspectives about how they approach the work, right? Somebody comes from sales and marketing or finance or HR or legal, so they have different perspectives on it. The difference with a cross-functional work team that really functions at a high level though is that when they come together for meetings, it's not as if, if I'm head of marketing, for example, that I'm coming in there as like the king of marketing and I'm there to protect my people and my budget, my pet programs and whatever I'm supposed to do. I actually show up to a meeting with my cross-functional work team members with my enterprise hat on. I'm thinking— I look at the world, no doubt, with a bias through marketing, just as others have their biases through their various specialty areas. However, our intent and our goal is to do what's best for the enterprise. And that means, hey, maybe my department takes a hit this quarter or this year in order to advance the overall cause. And this is kind of what we do for one another, because we're really there to do what's best for the organization. And so that, I think, is when we start really thinking about the whole and not just kind of fighting for our little slice of the pie like we talked about earlier, it can make a big, big difference. You know, it is that difference between thinking in terms of scarcity versus abundance.

Shall we talk a little bit— I'm going to go a bit sideways and We were talking about this before we started recording, and I would like your thoughts on the way that we learn and the way that we think and the way that we filter information. I'm asking this by— I think it was the first or the second chapter of your book that has the ladder of inference, and personally I find it a very fascinating topic. Would you like to explain that in simple words for, for the listener who might not be familiar with, with all this?

Sure. Um, the ladder of inference, um, as you know, and I thought it was interesting when you talked about it that it was something that you became familiar with in graduate school, uh, as well. And it's Chris Ardris, um, is who came up with it. And basically what he said, and it basically looks at how two people can look at the same event, the same person, or whatever, and come to entirely different conclusions about it, right? Think about how, you know, how you and I might walk into a room, and you're going to notice certain things about that room. And you're going to come back and someone's going to ask you to describe that room. You say, well, there was a great fireplace, and it was this, that, and the other. And then someone's going to ask me, and I'm saying, wow, the windows were amazing. And I loved some of the the furniture I saw, whatever, because my eye went to those places because of things that are kind of part of how I grew up, kind of thinking and looking, how I might look at a room and what is important to me. Same holds true for people. The same holds true for events. We tend to pay attention to kind of what we pay attention to and without being often open to everything else, which is why getting other people's perspectives becomes more powerful. Powerful. So the ladder of inference talks about kind of the data we select, but also the conclusions that we draw upon that data. Actually, in the book, I use an example of how this— two different people may have viewed Barack Obama in his first run for the presidency in 2008. And even when they look at the same data points, they can come to very conclude different conclusions about what those data points mean, and how they translate into beliefs about whether you believe he would be a good president or not. And it's a fascinating kind of look at things from that perspective. This is why, and I talk about, imagine if we could widen our ladder of inference. Imagine if we could climb that ladder of inference with our friends and colleagues and kind of understand how they see the world and why they do, and being open to that. You know, since we're doing quotes today, let's talk about, you know, Mark Twain's quote where he talks about the fact that we have one mouth and two ears for a reason, you know, and we need to do a whole lot more listening. And not just listening in a way where we're biding time to make our own comments, you know, in a given conversation, but truly and deeply listening to others and asking questions and trying to understand where people are coming from. You may come to a place where you don't agree with them, and that's all well and good, but at least you're going to understand the position. You're going to be open to where, uh, what's happening. You know, we talked a little bit, um, as you know, before the show about echo chambers and confirmation bias and some of the things that are, are driving real division in the world. Quite frankly, Somehow we even managed to politicize a pandemic, which is like really, you know, rather remarkable, right? Unlike many decades ago, when it was very clear what was news versus what was opinion, today, those are very much conflated. So people will watch different programs, could be radio, could be television, could be what they see on social media. And because the lines are so blurred in that regard, and because there's such a, you know, hunger for ratings and dollars and all those kinds of things for who says the most outrageous things and, you know, what's going on, then we start getting a lot of things thrown at us that, you know, people, I think, have a hard time figuring out what's true and what isn't and what's going on and what— and now we've come to a point where we're not trusting a lot of sources out there. The Edelman Trust Barometer came out in 2021 and introduced, at least to me, a concept called information hygiene. This idea that we hear information, but we're not always really good about vetting that information before we spread it to others. We don't do it to be destructive. We just are passing on information because we hear it. Yet at the same time, we also admit that we're not always sure which sources to trust and and whatever. You know, and as you know, in the book, I actually speak to a letter that I wrote to cable news about how divisive and how things have been. And of course, the reveal on that letter, even though you think it may have been written last week, was actually written in 2011. And it shows you how long this has been going on. This is not new. This is not something that's a product of the last 4 or 8 years. This is something that is very, very different. And I think at some point in time, we've got to figure out how we can be more open, how we can listen for understanding, how we can be truly curious again, and be open to trying to get a broader perspective on what's going on in the world. And, you know, I'm just— I remain hopeful that we will get back there. But yeah, it's been discouraging, to say the least, over the past Jackhead.

You know, you were saying earlier that it's difficult to find the truth, and of course it is. I mean, no one can say with certainty 100% which the truth is. So at the very end, I think all of us have to make a choice, decide on their opinion. And I think— and the problem there lies that we already have a preformed opinion or some biases. So, sure, when we look at new information, we will either completely disregard it because it goes— it's in the opposite direction, right? Or we want, you know, we want to filter it carefully because of already pre-existing biases and prejudices. So I think that is the challenge sometimes. you said to be curious and see the other side, but if I'm way too much absorbed in my own opinion of things that I won't allow the opposite opinion to come through, then there's not much sense. I will get more and more of what I already believe, to that extent that you see how polarized some people are. I mean, it's— you said discouraging— sometimes it looks scary to me when I see there is hatred that comes out, and that's wrong. I mean, no matter what else, hatred is completely not going to make anything better.

Now, you make a great point too, because this is how insidious and how effective actually ad hominem attacks are against individuals or organizations, because what will happen is we will immediately dismiss something that comes from a certain individual or come from a certain organization because we believe that the bias is so heavy in that direction that we just shut it down. I'm not going to suggest too that, I mean, there are certain, you know, when you talk about hate, you talk about, I think there are certain, you know, sectors out there that we don't need to be listening to that. I wish there were a lot less of that out there. I think it's really about how do we be open? How do we be collaborative? How do we work together? You know, when we look here in the US, and you look at the gridlock in Washington, and here we elect these people to actually serve the American people, when the reality is that, you know, it's really all about doing what they need to do to get reelected. And my confusion about that is I don't know how anyone would want a job that they're not even, even allowed to do. You know, if you really think about it. Like, if you're there truly not for your own ego but to serve the American people, then, um, then go and actually do it and make that happen and not be more concerned about your reelection than you are your constituents. So I think these things, um, you know, there has to be some shift in mindset, uh, in, in many respects around that.

Yeah, I think the way things are in, uh, in humanity right now We don't have a choice but to shift. I mean, this— everything is shifting anyway. You can't— this is all true.

I, I would be remiss, however, to say that, you know, I think a lot of what we see in the media is a lot of the divisiveness and a lot of the fight and all of that, because that's kind of what drives ratings. I will say, however, though, think about what we went through globally in terms of the pandemic. And think about the number of people, the incredible kindness, the incredible generosity, the, the, uh, amazing acts of, of community that happen throughout the world. Things on social media, people being creative, people lifting each other's spirits, people, you know, delivering food to people's houses, people, you know, consoling one another when they were worried about, um, you know, elderly parents or helping each other homeschool children or whatever. I think that's what gives me optimism. That's what gives me real hope that we're going to make the shift eventually back to a world where we will be more understanding of one another and, and it's, you know, and really create a sense of belonging for one another in this world. I think it's very much within us and And I want to make sure that as we're talking about this, that this isn't all bad. We live in an amazing world with some incredible people. So I think that's something that we can kind of hold on to a bit and give us that little sense of optimism when we get up every morning, that there's a lot of kindness that surrounds us.

Optimism, 100%. Leo, I would like to also ask you some quickfire questions to start wrapping things up. So the first one I always ask is, what does personal development mean to you?

Oh, it's about, um, making sure that I read and listen more than I write and try to push content. You know, when I see that getting out of balance, I start, you know, shifting back to making sure that, uh, you know, I continue to be a student of what I do. And that's what personal development's all about. You'll never see me call myself an expert at anything. I remain a student, and it keeps me hungry, it keeps me current, and I think that's what my definition of personal development is.

Thank you for that. That's wonderful, and I like very much the term student. It embodies very much expertise Yes, thank you. It's a, it's a great, a great definition. And Leo, let's say you could go back in time and meet your 18-year-old self. What's one, what one piece of advice you would give him?

Um, to, um, to be more of the learner that I just talked about, and I would have done that earlier.

Yeah, and I'm sure. And let's say that you could wave a magic wand and change something in the world as it is today, what would you change?

Wow, um, I, I would change— well, it's easy, I'm just not— I'm just trying to figure out a way to articulate it. Um, I think the idea of violence in the world world, whether it's between countries or whether it's within our societies, that we have healthy disagreements, have honest disagreements, but can deal with those in a nonviolent way.

Thank you. Leo Bottary, emerging from this conversation that we had, if you were to give to the listener an actionable item, something that they can take away from what we discussed and start implementing straight away, what would you tell them?

I think it's to embrace the idea that the power of we begins with you. Try to reflect on the gifts that you have and the special ways that you can contribute to your team, contribute to the world, and know how much you matter. And take ownership of that and just do the very best you can each and every day. That's what I would say.

That's great, that's great. Where would you direct people who want to know more about you and, and the book? And I will put all the links in the notes.

Yes, thank you. Yeah, pretty much, Peer Innovation is available wherever books are sold. My website also not only has books, but it has has everything from posters to infographics to several hundreds of articles, podcasts, and all of that. You can find that at leobottary.com, L-E-O-B-O-T-T-A-R-Y dot com, or at peerinnovation.co. And please, yeah, come, come visit, come dive into the content. You can spend a lot of time there because there's a, there's a lot there. But, uh, you know, hope you find something that is helpful for Thank you.

And Leo, is there something that you were really hoping we would discuss about today and we completely missed it?

Huh, completely missed it. I would only say that part of the work that I'm doing right now— I do a lot of work with peer advisory groups, and I'm doing more work with teams. Particularly cross-functional work teams. I would love to do even more work with cross-functional work teams because I think that it is so powerful and so applicable. It can make such a difference in your organization to have your cross-functional work team, especially now coming out of the pandemic where people are trying to shift and go from— maybe they're 100% remote right now, or maybe they're moving toward more of a hybrid model, or maybe they're heading back to the office, whatever that may happen to be. But as we kind of hit the reset button and kind of prepare for this continuing uncertain future that we have to be ready to pivot and adapt and somehow thrive through, I think our cross-functional work teams and our lens on the organization as a whole needs to widen. And I think a lot of this work is very powerful in that regard. So think about employing that, and whether that's with me personally or just getting the book or sharing it with your team and trying a lot these, um, you know, ideas yourself. I think, um, the more people that engage in it, uh, I, I think the, um, more successful you're going to be.

Leo, thank you very much for your time with us today and for sharing your wisdom and your expertise. I want to wish you all the very best in your ongoing mission, and please share any last parting words you might have.

Hey, Just thank you very much for having me. Well, I'm going to do a shout out to Alexander Keenan, who introduced us. So I want to do that. He is very busy running this incredible new community they've created called GaiaNet. And so Alex is a guy— Alexander is a guy to pay attention to. And I'm certainly glad we both did, because I'm glad we got together today and really appreciate your having me on the Sure.

And I will conclude with that since you mentioned Guy Annette. It is something that for the listener who might be wondering, I'm preparing a big feature very soon with all the founders and Alexander Keenan, of course, was the first one who I met. So very exciting. So Leo, thank you very much again and I wish you all the very best.

Thank you.

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