Acknowledging Our Fears, with Rabbi Michael Pollack

This podcast is part of the Democracy Group. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the podcast, Another Way. This is Adam Iken, the executive director of Equal Citizen. So I've been thinking a lot about the upcoming midterms. After all, the result will determine whether democracy reform is possible on the federal level. Will there be 50 senators willing to break the filibuster and pass the Freedom to Vote Act? Will there be enough members of the House to pass reform? I have absolutely no idea. But what I do know is that my job will change depending upon the outcome, both the outcome of the federal elections and the outcome in the states and as well. But not everybody sways with the electoral wins. And for this episode, I want to speak to somebody whose democracy work is rather impervious to election outcomes, or perhaps a more apt way to put it is that his organization will keep the course regardless of who's in office next year. And so my guest today is Rabbi Michael Pollack. Longtime listeners will remember him from a past season of Another Way. Pre pandemic, really, it feels like an absolute lifetime ago. Michael is the executive director of March on Harrisburg, a Pennsylvania based nonpartisan organization fighting to enact transformative anti corruption initiatives. Michael is also a dear, dear friend of mine and I often seek his advice, especially when I'm in need of some grounding. So, Michael, welcome back to the show.

Thank you so much for having me back. Adam, it's good to see you. It is always good to talk with you. You are indeed a dear friend and a great democracy warrior, doing great work pushing democracy forward. So always good to be with you. Always good to talk.

Yeah, I'm excited for a good conversation, Michael. And to that end, you know, I have a bunch of questions for you, especially on the topic that I preface this episode with. But I'm actually going to change my plan, Michael. I'm going to change it slightly because one of my goals for this new season of Another Way is to move away from kind of peer policy discussions and speak a little bit more earnestly about what it's like being a democracy advocate. In this moment last episode, Lessig and I spoke about the feelings of loss that we felt when we lost the Freedom to Vote act fight when it failed to pass the Senate. And so I want to ask you about fear, an emotion that we don't often talk about, or at least we don't talk about publicly. Privately I think we do, Michael. But publicly we don't really like to admit that we experience fear. And this is particularly apt because across the country and especially in your state of Pennsylvania, an increasing number of politicians are spreading lies about election fraud and openly now openly laying the groundwork to undermine election results. And these anti Democrats, small D Democrats, are finding growing support among a mass public that is treating their lies as truth. And that's a very frightening thing. And as much as I try to publicly profess optimism, I have to admit, Michael, there are many days where that fear becomes paralyzing. And so I want to ask you, do you find it difficult to push forward in the face of a really strong and growing anti democratic tide? And perhaps better yet, how do you make room for that fear in your relentless pursuit of a better democracy?

Yeah, I think it's a very real fear and I think I use it as fuel, or at least I try to. In my most ideal day, in my best day, I'm using it as fuel to motivate, to fight for democracy. Because fascism, authoritarianism doesn't creep in because people don't like democracy. It creeps in and takes hold because people are hungry, because people are struggling, because people are facing a bleak future. And fascism promises easy answers that will never help. It's always, hate your neighbor, look down on the little guy, somebody different than you is the problem, which is not the pathway to solving the problems that are very real, which are hunger, lack of health care, ecological devastation, housing, jobs, all of these things. So we have to fight for something that's a more compelling vision than what the fascists can offer, than what the authoritarians can offer. And that more compelling vision is not the political status quo. Fascism is a reaction against the failing status quo that is unable and unwilling to actually help people in their day to day lives. It's unable and unwilling to get wages up or to provide affordable housing or all sorts of things. We're seeing a system failure. And so the rise of fascism. I try to take that fear and harness it in a way that promotes a vision of democracy that's far more beautiful than what the fascists are pitching. And there really is no limit to what we can do. If we actually had a government of, by and for the people, if we actually practice democracy in our political world and in our economic and social life, we could build a world of love, we can build a world of beauty, we can build a world where everybody is taking care, everybody has enough, a world of bounty. And that really is the mission of humanity for quite some time now, is to try to figure out not just how to live together without killing each other and descending into chaos and violence. And corruption and madness, but also to build a world where joy and beauty abound. So we have to fight just as hard for peace as they're fighting for war. We have to be able to wage democracy, wage peace with the same scale, duration, intensity as fascists are aiming to wage war. It's a challenge.

But Michael, I completely agree. But I want to push you a little bit to sit with that feeling publicly of fear, because it's one thing to say, use it as fuel. But I want to push you, Michael, really, because I think that many people who are not doing this professionally and don't have a daily outlet to fight back, I think do experience crippling fear. Because if we experience it and we have an outlet, then I think a lot of listeners who don't have that ready agency on a daily basis to do something about it, it becomes extraordinarily paralyzing. And of course, one of the solutions to that is to open up avenues for thousands upon thousands of people to actually have the resources and ability to fight back. But I want to push you here to say, actually speak to me about the feeling of fear, about do you have trouble getting up when you're in a state where the state legislature or many members of the state house are really reactionary anti Democrats, like small D Democrats? I mean, you know, especially in some of the counties that you and I have visited in our travels across Pennsylvania, there are many members of the Pennsylvania State House who may not really fully believe in democracy. And that is scary, especially as their numbers grow. And I'm just wondering how you, you manage that feeling. Because it's one thing to say you use it as fear, but it's another thing to say or to kind of tell me a bit about how you actually move beyond that in the moments where you're not publicly trying to profess strength.

Yeah, absolutely. And I chuckle at you hedging your words there around. We have members who may not believe in democracy. We have members who do not believe in democracy. We have white supremacists in office. We have Nazis in office. I mean, this is not. These are Christian nationalists who do not believe in democracy, period. Full stop. It's not a question. And it's terrifying. You're absolutely right to say that it's terrifying. And you're right to push me on this too, because I'm definitely deflecting and trying to just move it right back into the action frame and right back into taking action. Because at the end of the day, that is the cure for fear and depression is action A lot of the time if I didn't have that outlet, I would be far more depressed, I'd be far more scared, far more living in fear. The best antidote for me is to organize and take action and go speak truth to power and fight for the cause. But yeah, no, I'm definitely afraid. Of course, of course. And there are definitely days where it's very hard to keep moving because of that fear. Because humanity, it's not great right now, but it can get so, so much worse. I mean, this can collapse into shame, sheer violence and chaos. And in ways that, you know, we've seen through history, we know what humanity is capable of at its worst. And it's quite bad and it's terrifying. And you know, I think from many generations of Jewish trauma, I think I definitely carry, and I know you do as well, Kerry, a sense of anxiety and, you know, keep our passports updated and you know, we've thought about backup plans. I mean, there's no doubt because when things get bad, they can get bad really fast and it's terrifying.

And so then what do you do with those feelings? Again, we're not the only people who experience this. This is what a large portion of the country feels. Polling shows that people are very worried about their democracy. So when you take action, what does that mean for you? What does taking action mean for you? Concretely, what does it mean when you are feeling bad and you need to sit with that feeling of fear, but then kind of also recognize, which I think you're totally right about, which is that things can get worse, but by no means are we doomed to descend into democratic decline. Right. And ultimately, I guess that might be where you and I draw our strength, even when we're feeling kind of down about this, that ultimately knowing that the last chapter or the next chapter rather hasn't been written. And therefore we have the ability collectively as a polity, as a people, to chart our own path. And that as scary as things get, nothing is set in stone. The only thing that would be set in stone or the only time where things become set in stone is when people give up or let the fear consume them.

Absolutely right. I mean, as Hegel said, world history is world judgment. And that kind of shows the dark side of history where when we do bad things, things, bad things happen. It's a pretty self evident concept. And the flip side of that is when we do good things, good things happen. And there's a certain faith that we can write the next chapter. There's line after line after line in The Torah that says basically, if you do good, God will bless you for a thousand generations. If you worship goodness, if you serve each other, if you build a better world, a better world will be built. And it's up to us to do that. And, yeah, it's quite a task. Adam, humans have been at this for some time trying to figure out how to live together without killing each other and how to build a world of beauty and joy and we shall get there one day.

Yeah, I mean, I think that I often find, oftentimes I found that one of the things that keeps me going is this idea that the book of democracy was not written in our lifetime and won't be finished being written in our lifetime. That we're just one chapter in the broader story of, of American democracy. And that book of democracy has been filled with very fraught times and also times where people have pushed democracy forward by fighting, even when things were incredibly bleak. And so, you know, that really keeps me motivated even when I'm feeling really very, very fearful about the future. But I want to ask you one.

Yeah, sorry, sorry, I didn't answer your question. The actions that gave me some hope. I think a lot of the hope comes from the community that you build during the actions and through the actions. When you're organiz with other people and taking meaningful actions that are strategic, that are connected to a campaign, that are pushing in the right direction. You feel good, you feel supported. You don't let the fear paralyze you. You get out of bed not just because you're fighting for the issue, but also because you don't want to disappoint somebody. You don't want John or Rachel or Emmy or somebody else to wonder where you are. You want to be there for them. You start fighting for the person next to you. You start fighting for the people close to you. You start thinking about your own family and future generations motivates you to stay in the action, to get up on a rainy Tuesday morning and go march 11 miles through Central Pennsylvania. So the actions that build the most community for me are the marches. We just did a 33 mile march from York to Harrisburg. The direct actions. We've done, as you know, several dozen rounds of direct action with everywhere from crashing golf courses to fundraisers in hotels to the House gallery, the House floor, the Senate gallery, offices around the building. We've everywhere. And it's through that, through that action, through those campaigns that you build those bonds that keep you going, that keep you in the fight. And that's what I think gives me the most hope and trust in the future.

Yeah, no, I think that's right. And for our listeners, this conversation is going to pick up in terms of we're going to get into specifically what Michael and Martin Harrisburg do and the actions that really give me hope and I think are incredibly effective in again, as I started this conversation and staying the course and putting pressure on regardless of who's in office and, you know, serves as a model for what could be replicated in states across the country in terms of how to push back or how to advance democracy, even in a state that has many, many, many members of the State House who may not believe in democracy. But one thing, Michael, for you, and maybe this is a quick question.

Democracy. Who don't believe in democracy.

Who don't believe in democracy. You're right. I shouldn't hedge my words. I don't need to be civil here.

That's another back to fear, though. I think the fear that gets me the most, if I may say on this, by the way, for the listeners, this is how Adam and I generally talk in just normal conversations. We jump around from topic to topic. So I apologize for bringing that into the podcast format. But this idea of fear, I think the fear that gets me the most honestly is interpersonal fear. I do not like to provoke people. I do not like confrontation. I don't enjoy when people are unhappy with me and are expressing their unhappiness. So for me, that's the fear that fills me with dread. That's the fear that keeps me from not wanting to go back into the Capitol building where, you know, 8 out of 10 people there hate my guts and would rather I just, you know, never came back. Did I tell you that? Avenue nickname? Now the lobbyists call me the rabid rabbi. You know, it's like going into the Capitol. It's like being in a middle school cafeteria where you're the most unpopular kid for no fault of your own and everybody just hates you. And of course, there's many legislators and staffers who support us and everybody who works there supports but that fear of getting yelled at. And that happens very regularly because the issues that we work on are pushing on such a button, we're pushing on such a nerve that the reaction is strong and the empire strikes back. And I'd say that probably what wears on me the most is just getting yelled at by powerful people for doing the right thing. And we have a phrase inside of March on Harrisburg. It's from a TV show. It's your booze Mean nothing because I've seen what makes you cheer and that's kind of the attitude that we have to use as a shield of armor to get through the day.

Yeah. And I have to say that one of the things that the side of fear that I'm glad you brought this up, that one of the sides of fear that I wasn't even thinking of when it comes to the state of democracy is what you just said of the fear of actually going outside your comfort zone to engage in politics. It's very scary. I mean, it really is, right? It's scary for you every time you go to the, the State House and you won't admit it, but I'm sure every time you go in and you're going to engage in a sit in or you're going to go lobby somebody you've never lobbied before or somebody you have lobbied before and go in and try and lobby someone who, you know, hates your guts and who's going to say no. You're a very jovial guy, Michael, but I know on the inside, you know, it doesn't feel good. It's scary. The catharsis afterwards I think is what makes it worth it and to know that you are continuing to push the ball forward despite the fear and that you're stronger than your fear. But for our listeners, I mean, engaging in politics is really scary. And I think that that's something that isn't said enough among people who do this work. And you do it every day, Michael. Every time you go into Harrisburg, you go into the city of corruption, you're making yourself vulnerable in the pursuit of democracy. And we shouldn't ignore that.

Oh, absolutely. This is something we talk about a lot within March on Harrisburg because it weighs on a lot of us. I mean, we're going in and talking to very powerful, very corrupt people who use the police as the line between us and them often. So we're forced to interact with the police a whole lot. And there's this logic in Harrisburg, this prevailing logic that is just so bastardized, just so wrong compared to the prevailing logic outside of the Capitol building that kind of creates this group think of corruption, this culture of corruption, which makes people feel like they're the crazy ones for being in the building, challenging corruption because everybody in the building is kind of on the same page as, yeah, this is just how things work. And then when you say, wait a second, that's really bad there, that bribery is legal and unlimited, they go, wait, why is that bad? That's not bad. That's Good. Here's why that's good. And you're just wading through layers and layers of absurdity. And one of the key parts of being in these fights for a long time is having these conversations and talking about it internally as group. It's important.

Yeah, and we'll get into all of that. I mean, we've been alluding to a number of things that you've been fighting for. I mean, the concept of bribes is related to the fact that in Pennsylvania, there are no limits to the gifts that people can give to members of the state House. It's an incredibly corrupt practice. It's pure corruption, plain and simple. Right. And so one of the things that you're fighting for, we'll talk about it, is a ban on those kind of gifts, which. Which seems logical, seems like something that everyone should agree upon. But as you said, Michael, when the rules of the game are agreed upon by those in it and those who benefit from the kind of the corrupt practices, it's very hard to get through with the level of sanity, a level of common sense in a House where everyone seems to believe that the norm of kind of unlimited gift giving, or you might call bribes, is where that is treated as normal. It's hard to get through to people who benefit from that. But. Okay, but Michael, we should transition, transition a bit into March on Harrisburg. Because for those who haven't listened to this, the last episode we did, which I'll link to in the show notes, I think it's pretty relevant even though it's a couple years old. Now, give us a sense of what March on Harrisburg is. We've alluded to it, we've alluded to some of your tactics. Marching and engaging in direct actions like sit ins. But give us a sense. Who are you? What does March on Harrisburg do? What are the main goals and what, what have you been doing across the state to build a democracy movement in Pennsylvania?

Absolutely. So, yeah. So March on Harrisburg. We fight for democracy. We fight against corruption here in Pennsylvania. It's one of the most corrupt states in the country. We have just absurd corruption, as you've been saying. Unlimited gifts to legislators, side jobs, revolving door problem, unlimited campaign contributions, unlimited dark money, independent expenditures, a terrible gerrymandering problem. No ranked choice voting, closed primaries, no ballot initiat. And I could go on and on with a dozen voting rights violations that we have too. We're very corrupt. So march on Harrisburg. Our main three tactics are lobbying, marching and nonviolent direct action. We are in the Capitol quite often. We have boots in the ground, trying to make our case, build coalitions inside the building and just kind of shepherd our bills through the process. We've done four, four long distance marches now. Wow, four. We just did one from York to Harrisburg back in September, which was a lot of fun. And we also do a lot of nonviolent direct action. Many, many, many direct actions over the years targeting the obstructions. In Pennsylvania, our state legislature is structured in a very authoritarian way. There's basically six gatekeepers that can block any bill. If any of these six people says a bill doesn't pass, it doesn't pass. Even though we have 253 full time legislators, it's very bottlenecked as an institution. So our direct actions, our campaigns tend to focus on the bottlenecks. They tend to focus on the gatekeepers to just move our bills forward one step at a time.

So what's an example? Let me interrupt you here. So when you say direct action, that's a very insider type term. What are you talking about when you're talking about direct action? Give us a couple of your favorites, because I know them, I love them, but give me a couple, you know, dropping dollar bills on the House gallery, on members of the statehouse as they're voting as a show of corruption. That's one of my favorites that you've done. And that really made people angry. But it got really good press and showcased the absurdity of the gift ban or the absurdity of no gift ban.

That is. Oh, yeah, yeah. We threw $500 cash down on the House floor and that got the speaker of the House on board for the g been. And then the bill moved out of committee a couple months after that. But then the speaker of the House resigned abruptly and the pandemic started. And so that bill didn't pass that session. We have two year sessions here in Pennsylvania. God, there's so many direct actions, Adam. And so many of them have just been a really good time and highly successful too. We crashed a breakfast fundraiser this year that was a fun time. It was the House majority leader. He was having a breakfast fundraiser with just some of the most corrupt people in Pennsylvania politics. And we went in there and just kind of took over the room, occupied the space, made some noise, tried to negotiate at first, of course, but he ran away pretty quickly and hid behind the omelette bar. But we definitely hit him in the pocketbook. We hit him in the wallet that day and got a good response. Other ones that we've done, I enjoyed going out to Senator Corman's golf course. That was just a beautiful day out in Center County. It's the golf course where he holds all fundraisers. He was having a big one that day sponsored by a construction firm that had just been forced by the courts to pay tens of millions of dollars in stolen wages back to their employees. You know, real, real corrupt people, real nice people. And we just crashed the golf course. We set up between two holes and Corman stayed in the clubhouse. He didn't even come out and play that day, so he wasn't happy. Other campaigns that we've run, Mike. God, Adam, there's just been so, so, so many. I'm trying to.

Well, I mean, we can bring up more as the interview goes on, but the idea here, right, is that these are somewhat risky maneuvers, but they're all designed nonviolently and they're all designed to elevate the issues that the politicians try to squash. In other words, that these politicians do everything they can to, to block momentum for common sense things like a gift ban or gerrymandering reform, because they know that when people learn about them, they support it, right? When the mass public hears that there are no limits on gifts for members of the State House, they support a gift ban. And so what they do is they try to make it not newsworthy. They try to kill it as soon as it comes up for discussion. And so, so these tactics that you do after lobbying of these long marches where you get a lot of press in every city that you walk past, and these direct actions which again, not only make members of the statehouse uncomfortable and get their lobbyists to know who you are, they also get media attention. And so it's a very successful strategy to continue to build the public case for reform in a way that I think, think more people could learn from who are fighting for the issues that we care for, that we have to sustain a years long campaign for some of these things, even common sense things, to really pressure these people to do the things that aren't even in their best interest in the sense of it's in their interest to preserve a gift ban because they financially benefit from it. And it's up to people like us to continue to fight and make them embarrass, to keep taking or to keep preserving that corrupt loophole that undermines democracy.

Right? And if I may go biblical for a second here to make a point. You know, we were talking earlier about creating a better world, a more beautiful world, and kind of what goes into that. And one basic idea is that when we see each other, when we hear each other, when we're encountered by the other, we want to respond with service. So when you force the encounter with somebody in power and you're suffering, the ideal is that you get this. This humane response of responsibility, of sympathy. And this is a metaphor throughout Jewish tradition, that when you see the face of the other, you're ordered and ordained to service. And what corruption does is it blocks us from seeing each other, blocks us from hearing each other. It creates a bubble. It creates a dome of corruption. It creates a swamp, a culture of corruption. We have so many words for this. And there's a line in Deuteronomy, do not take a breath bribe, because a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the righteous. And so what we are living through is this blindness, this deafness, this indifference from corrupted political system toward the people. And so in order to break that, we have to force the encounter. We have to be seen, we have to be heard. They have to see us in the face and go and think about that corrupt subsidy that they just passed. Instead of building more schools or hospitals. They need to see the face of people who are suffering and break through. And it's not just that ideal response that we generate from. Ideally, the House Majority Leader sees somebody upset about corruption and goes, oh, my God, I had no idea this was so bad. Of course I'll do something. But what generally also happens is that people around them see this encounter and respond accordingly. So when you're doing a direct action, you're not just going after the target, the person who you're trying to encounter. You're also going after all of their friends. You're also trying to influence through the media, the general public. You're trying to kind of force the encounter, put the question to them, are you going to do the right thing or the wrong thing? And if they do the right thing, you celebrate, of course. And if they do the wrong thing, you make sure that that encounter is visible and that decision is visible, so that people's sympathetic response jumps up, gets triggered, and they get involved. And when enough people force the encounter in an organized way, we win. It's over. Right. One more point. Democracy is a perpetual encounter of all of us. I mean, it's people constantly encountering each other in a systemic way to arrive at decisions that govern us. That's the essence of it. So that community organizing, that building community, that forcing encounter internally and externally is practicing democracy, which is what we're trying to build.

Yeah, I couldn't agree More, I think that you've long convinced me of this, of forcing the encounter and kind of really challenging corruption head on. I think that that's, you know, and again that, you know, bringing it back to the concept of fear. It's very scary to do that. It's scary to look into the eyes of corruption and have it stare right back at you. But you know, it requires that level of bravery.

Their booze mean nothing. We've seen what makes them cheer. And a side note on what makes them cheer, if I may. It's an idol worshiping society and I'm going to go biblical here again for a minute. Minute. But our entire system is oriented toward money. It's oriented toward gold, silver money, stock prices, figures of wealth of money. And this is an old human phenomenon. But when we start worshiping money and orienting everything toward it, we become just like it. There's an old psalm, your idols are like gold. They have no ears, they cannot hear, they have no eyes, they cannot see, they have no hands, they cannot feel. Those who worship them become just like them. And that's what our society has become. It's become hardened, it's become rigid, it's become stuck and stale. And it's because we're worshiping idols. We're not trying to serve. Public service is out the window. It's just not. There's a few good ones out there, but for the most part, public service is out the window. We're oriented toward the golden calf and God. It just causes so much suffering.

Well, I mean this is what happens with a campaign finance system that requires members of, of the State House or I think more about members of Congress often spending up to 70% of their time fundraising that when the bulk of one's day as a member of Congress is spent thinking about how you can raise more money and who you can call to get money instead of actually legislating. This isn't about whether or not somebody's a good or bad person. This is about the system. This is about the institution of democracy that we set up and the right rules and the ways in which we set it up. And that's obviously one reason why you and I care so deeply about public financing of elections, is to try and change the incentives so that people are spending more time thinking about their constituents instead of how to raise more money. And it changes their worldview.

Just a quick example of what you're saying from a few weeks ago, I was talking with somebody who was thinking about running for office for a state Rep seat and running on the Republican side. And he got a call from a bag man from, from a middleman who said, basically, I'll, I'll give you $300,000 if you're anti union and anti public school. The guy said, it's, I mean, that's, that's the devil calling you and saying, you know, here's the deal. Sacrifice all of your values and here's enough money to run a campaign and you have a job for the rest of your life that pays pretty well and we'll take care of you and make sure you never get hurt. Nobody ever seriously challenges you or anything. You know, you're shielded, you're in the club now. And this person turned down the deal. Deal. But the draw of money, everything leans toward the green. The guy with the gold makes the rules. And our whole system is oriented around that and it's terrible.

Yeah, no, and when you put it like that, I mean, again, this is why fighting for democracy is so critical. This is why, regardless of what your issue passions are, it all comes back to having a functional and fair democracy where, where the rules of the game promote public service and promote, kind of raising up of all voices instead of just those who can hand you a $300,000 check. Michael, I want to keep going a bit on the march on Harrisburg because we could get sidetracked all day, but since we last spoke, and again, it's been a while, perhaps your biggest victory with March on Harrisburg was in 2019 winning a bipartisan legislative achievement to expand vote by mail. And you didn't know it at the time, but this would play a huge role in having a functional democracy. During the pandemic in the 2020 presidential election, you know, beforehand, the vote by mail was very restrictive and you know, you helped with a coalition of folks in Pennsylvania to allow for much wider use of vote by mail. And that has proven to be a game changing reform that you guys want in Pennsylvania. Again, in a legislature that most national people would say reform is impossible because the governor is a Democrat and the state house and senate are Republican held. So national leaders look at that and say, I'm not spending any time there because that's not fertile for reform. Reform. But you and your colleagues saw opportunity to actually get reform passed again in an environment where no national figure that I know would put money on, invest money in that situation because that's just not how funding structures work in nonprofits that most places have to get results immediately and they're not going to invest in a hostile quote unquote place where, where it's going to require bipartisan compromise as opposed to kind of one party legislation. But you guys did it. And so I'm wondering if you could quickly kind of give some sort of synopsis of that fight because again, it's a story that's not told and yet it was essential to running the presidential election in 2020. Like, as all the eyes were on the results from Pennsylvania, very few people knew that it was only a year prior that U1 reform to even allow. Allow that election to take place.

Essentially, yeah. Can you imagine the chaos if Pennsylvania didn't have vote by mail in the 20th?

No, I couldn't, Michael. And that's why it still frustrates me that, you know, people just assumed that this happened out of the blue. But no, like, the reason we had functional elections in 2020 in Pennsylvania was because of the work of activists in the state pushing to advance democracy.

Absolutely. And you know, this was the first electoral code rewrite since 1937. This was the most substantive and first one, you know, since 19. It's incredible. And looking back on it, I'm very happy that we were able to get it done. You know, yeah, it was pushed through with a Republican legislature and signed into law by a Democratic governor. We actually pushed it through unanimously. On the Republican side, we put in some work to make sure that the kind of the fringe right didn't peel off and oppose this. And on the Democratic side, we got it done. We got the votes. We got, I believe, 60 Democratic votes that got it over the top. And the governor was happy to sign it. There were champions on both sides of the aisle who really wanted to make this happen. There was public pressure. There was growing, growing frustration from voters and from election workers. The county commissioners had organized quite well and were very upset and had a lot of changes that they wanted to see. And then there were just a couple brave people inside of the building who really pushed it forward, you know, who. Some of whom have just kind of disappeared into history. But yeah, it was a challenge. I remember the day of the vote. There was a lot of misinformation going around. We had to really clear up a lot of things, especially on the Democratic side, around what the bill actually did. But I remember we outperformed the governor's whip count by 19 in the House, that we did 19 votes better than what he thought it would be. So that was definitely, I think we had about 20 people on the ground the day of the vote and in the days leading up, just going to every single door in the building, keep making sure that everybody was on the same page, everybody knew what was actually in the bill, and we're staying focused. Focus is key because people get distracted. Politicians are really looking for a reason to say no to most things, even things they don't understand, because it's safer to say no than it is to say yes. But we were really able to kind of forge a bit of a compromise to voter ID kept coming into the conversation. We were able to really kind of tune that out and not let that be a sticking point. Kind of keeping us focused, keeping everyone focused on what people agree on rather than what they disagree on. And it's looking back on it pretty stunning that it happened. And one more thing that made it happen too was our direct action campaign over the gift ban bill against the House State Government Committee chair at the time, Darrell Metcalfe, which drove him off of the committee. We were able to knock him off after 10 years of blocking everything. And that created a committee on the House side that was willing to do something, which led to this.

And one thing, Michael, that I think is really worth teasing out a bit is that the reason you were able to go kind of office by office to talk about the vote by mail reform and actually exceed the governor's whip count was because you spent the previous three years fostering relationships that, like, one of the things that you do is you are in the State House, you know, once or twice a week, meeting with people. I mean, this is the key part of March and Harrisburg. You're lobbying anybody who will take a meeting. You meet with Republicans, Democrats, anybody in the State House. And so you have existing relationships with them. And they may not agree with you on everything, but they know your face, they know you as the rabbi, they know you as that guy who comes across, you know, who comes, you know, walks down the cafeteria and introduces themselves or goes into the meeting and calls the assistant and schedules, you know, a one on one, Right. And so you have fostered relationships with members of the State House and that opened up lines of communication. And in other words, that you're not somebody who just goes state to state, you know, a hired gun. You are in Pennsylvania, you're not leaving Pennsylvania. You are getting to know these people to get to know what their interests are, what their quirks are as members of the State House. And that's a very valuable skill. And it's not something that's won overnight. It's something that. And again, I'll talk to you a bit about this later in the Episode about kind of, it's really deep organizing. It's not transactional, it requires a lot of patience. But again, the 2019 vote by mail reform is evidence that it does require work.

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, we, we are in the Capitol often forming those relationships, pounding the pavement, knocking the doors and you know, God, on September 12th, when we did an all out blitz that morning, we covered all 203 offices in about 45 minutes. We had about 50 or 60 people in the building. So it takes us 45 minutes to do a quick round through, through the whole 203 minutes member house, which is pretty nice.

You're a well oiled machine at this point when it comes to lobbying. But that's what you have to do, that's what it requires.

Gotta force the encounter. Absolutely. And again, not care if they don't like you, which is really something I think some groups struggle with, is that it's okay if they disagree with you and if they push back and even if they don't want to meet with you. Such is life. But you have to go in. I mean, God, on September 12th, when we tried to force that gift ban vote, there were four legislators in an elevator together. And one of them told us what the other three were saying, which was, oh, those March on Harrisburg people are back. Oh, they're so disgusting. They're just so disgusting. And that's how the empire is going to think of you when you're trying to do the right thing. But you keep pushing. You keep pushing and you generate the pressure and then you get things over the finish line. It is possible. You just gotta be organized and pushing strategically.

Yeah. And this leads me into a question that I think a lot about. And there's this wonderful book by Hari Hahn, political scientist at Johns Hopkins, called How Organizations Develop Activists. And she writes about the difference between organizations that mobilize versus organize. And mobilizing to her is very transactional. It's about focusing on what are the low asks you can get people to take. And basically what are the calls, calls to action you can give that are the lowest bar because people don't want to do a lot. And so we're just going to ask for the bare minimum, like calling a member of Congress. And that's the extent of your interaction between the organization and the volunteer. But organizers, according to this book, actually delve deeper in their engagement with the broader population in terms of, of developing volunteers into leaders and building their skills and changing their beliefs or helping them find their voice in the legislative process. And again, I think about this distinction a lot, especially in the wake of the failure of the Freedom to Vote act. Because when it was all said and done, Michael, we generated a bunch of engagement calls to senators, letters, op ed heads. But when push came to shove and the bill was going through its final vote on whether or not they were going to reform the filibuster, there were very few people who were in D.C. at that point. Right. And if we're going to win this fight, we need a movement of people.

Right.

A movement. And I think that the democracy movement has a little bit of soul searching and has had to do some soul searching in the wake of that movement. Certainly I have about what does organizing mean? And I think that Americans across the country believe in the reforms that we think we fight for. But there's a difference between belief and latent public opinion and turning that into helping people develop the civic skills to actually fight back, to overcome the fear that we were talking about, to give people an outlet to do more than just, just sign a petition, write a letter to the editor, call your member of Congress, but something more, and I'm wondering if you have thoughts on that, because I know you do. I'm asking that question. I'm begging the question there. I know you do. We talk about it, but it's very, it's something that regardless of the issue that you're fighting for, whether it's democracy, the environment, food security, it doesn't matter. This is perpetually, this is perpetually the dilemma or perpetually one of the challenges of collective action.

Yeah, absolutely right. As you just said, you can't be just mobilizing. You have to be organizing or else your mobilizations flame out. People can't sustain it without the organization. It was sad when the fight was happening last winter at the federal level level. I was in D.C. with you for a day during that. There were a couple dozen people actually on the ground in D.C. that's embarrassing. That's not a well organized movement. And I think there's a lot of room for growth and I'm excited for what the national democracy movement and state based democracy groups are thinking about and hopefully moving toward an attitude of base building and leadership development. Development. We, you know, I can speak as Martin Harrisburg. We have enough leaders, we are organized enough to push a gift ban out of committee and almost force a vote on the House floor and make them panic. We're organized enough to push the voting bill through Act 77 back in the fall of 2019. We're not organized enough to pass Public campaign financing. We're not organized enough to bring a ballot initiative process to Pennsylvania yet. There's a lot of building that needs to happen. We need to develop the leaders. And so, you know, we talk about, you know, and just one more thought on that. It's. It's not enough to be angry. It's not enough to just say, this is what I believe, this is what I think, and kind of shout your opinion into the wind. Nobody cares. I mean, I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude or, but I'm just being blunt here. It's not going to do anything. You need to organize. You need to be able to speak with a clear voice, you know, as.

As a.

As a unit in order to accomplish tactics that can force the encounter and generate meaningful change. So, you know, we talk about developing leaders who are clear, connected, competent, committed, and confident. We need leaders who are clear on what we're up against. And what we're up against is a society oriented around greed, a society oriented around more money, more power, an economic system that functions, you know, where. Revolves around capital, and then has made the political system subservient to it, has realized that you can get a very good return on investment by buying off Congress and passing laws that make you more money. So, you know, we want people to be clear on that. And there's. That's a overgeneralization, of course, and there's much more to say. We want, you know, leaders who are committed, you know, leaders who, you know, we have internal conversations, we do exercises to kind of. Kind of tend to your own burning bush, you know, tend to your own fire that keeps you going, that animates you, that gets you out of bed and doesn't let fear keep you down and keep you home.

But, Michael, to be clear here, and I think just to refine the point a bit, is that one of the things that I'm quite frankly, very envious about, because this is not something that I have very great skills about, is you do a really good job as an organization delegating real, meaningful responsibility to volunteers. That it's not like you are asking people to just show up on one day to lobby. It's that you're giving people the opportunity to actually be leaders. And I think that's really what I. What I appreciate about Harihan's book is that it's not just about giving people things to do. It's about developing leaders, because people, and I'm going to cop this from my dear friend Francis Moore. Lepe is that people want a sense of agency and meaning and power in their lives. And it's no different in your personal life versus your public life, your political life, is that people want to experience these things. They want to not wield power indiscriminately, but to have a sense of agency and power and meaning in one's ability to shape the world and make the world a better place, especially, especially when confronted with, with an environment that is, is fearful. And that's something that, again, I'm very envious of you from one executive director to another, because, you know, I, I don't know if I always have the, the, the confidence or the, or the, you know, I, I'm, you know, stick with the theme, fearful about delegating. Delegating is very hard and it's very hard to, to put in the time and energy to develop a real cadre of volunteer leaders as opposed to just making asks. And so that's not to belabor the point. It's just to say that this is something that I would love to see more people do. And there are organizations in the democracy movement that do this. And I think there's a time and a place for transactional organizing. I really do, I think, think that. Or kind of, you know, signing petitions, writing letters to the editor, you know, doing all this stuff is critically important. I guess my point here is just that there are two sides of this fight and we definitely need more people doing kind of organizing, transformative organizing to build up power.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. You need to raise up an army to fight the battle. You know, you need a team. And you know, it really comes down to basic democracy principles. Right. If the idea of democracy is collective self governance, we need to trust each other. I mean, we need to trust each other to make good decisions. We need to be able to delegate things to each other. We need to be able to trust people. Because what we're fighting for at the end of the day is shared responsibility. You know, is the recognition that our fates are intertwined. And sometimes that can be hard, for sure, but it's essential. And the community is what sustains the mobilizations. If you don't do the organizing, the mobilizing just disappears after a couple, you know, you can have some bright bursts, but it's going to flame out. It's not going to be able to sustain itself. And I mean, we've seen what we can do with mobilizations and the only way to increase mobilizations is more organizing and actually building that democracy community. It's essential.

Yeah. I completely agree. So, Michael, I do need to return to the premise of the episode, which is about election season and about, you know, that you're pretty steadfast in terms of your strategy. You know, you're going to keep pushing regardless of who, who wins the state, control of the state House, who wins the governorship in Pennsylvania. But I do want to talk to you about what it's like, like organizing for democracy in this particular moment during a very contentious midterm season in a swing state. Is it hard to continue to build momentum for your legislative priorities when everybody is focused on the national races? On the one hand, I can see how the midterms would bring attention to money in politics, quite frankly, and voter access. Right. I think outside, outside groups, Open Secrets reported that outside groups have spent well over $100 million in the U.S. senate race in Pennsylvania. But on the other hand, I'm sure that people find the immediacy and high profile nature of the federal race to be far more important than your longer term goals of fixing the kind of the institutional structure of elections in Pennsylvania. So again, your strategy, march, coaching, lobbying, direct action isn't going to change regardless who is in office. If the Democrats can take control of the state House, you're going to do the same thing. If Republicans keep control of the state House, you're going to do the same thing. Because this is the strategy that has proven successful to you to win bipartisan results. But you're still trying to organize during election season. You're not making endorsements, you're a nonpartisan organization. You stay as far away from elections as you can. Michael, so you still vote. Of course you still vote. But what is it like organizing, what is it like being in a state where $130 million is being spent on one U.S. senate race?

Yeah, I mean, you know, as the status quo falls apart, as suffering increases, as people's problems don't get solved and continue to get worse, you know, as our collective problems just deteriorate, the theater has to get better, the sideshow has to improve. And we really are seeing some of the best we've, we've seen in US Political history. I mean, you know, here in Pennsylvania we have a wrestling villain. You know, John Fetterman looks like the bad guy in wwe up against a TV charlatan. I mean, you know, up against a fake doctor. It's incredible. I mean, it's good casting, I guess. You know, the character development is spot on. The script is often a little unbelievable, but I think that's okay. And I think they're constantly building up to the next season while trying to have you forget about season. It's a show. And so organizing during election season means you're dealing with an absurd system at its most absurd. You're dealing with a system that is run by money that is throwing as many smoke bombs in the air as it possibly can to get you to continue to validate that system through the election process. Elections are extremely important. The consequences are extremely real. But we are not. Our enemy is not one party or the other, which is the way election season often tries to make people feel that your enemy is the other party. Or here in Pennsylvania, they're trying to make you feel like the enemy is black people. In Philadelphia, there's just been a string of racist ads for a while now. They're trying to other some group, somebody to blame all the problems on. And that's not how we organize at all. We're not organizing from a left versus right, Republican versus Democrat, conservative versus Lib. So we're not trying to triangulate all of those and find some space in the middle either. We're moral fusion organizing. We're organizing across all lines of division and we're organizing a working class movement to challenge ruling class domination over our political system. The top Democrats and the top Republicans have more in common with each other than either does with their own voters. Nancy Pelosi has more in common with Ted Cruz than either one does with anybody who will vote for for them. And so we try to really break down all of those lines of division. That election season works really hard to put up. And it's frustrating to deal with this nonsense. The media hype, the candidates, the money that just pumps us full of crap all day. It's constantly geared toward promising you that if your team wins and their team loses, everything is going to be great. But that's just not how it works. When your entire political system is responsible to systemic bribery, you got to take care of the systemic bribery. You can't just keep expecting a different result from a rotten system.

But it's still. I'd love for you to kind of get a little bit more into the weeds about how you try to refocus attention onto the longer term issues of the institution with all that money sloshing around. Because is it one of those things? Where is it possible? Because part of me is like, why don't you just take a three month break and come back in December? But of course that's not the answer. Right? But there's not a Lot of media space where there's not a lot of attention span for voters, for state legislative politics and certainly voting policies when everything is already so saturated. And moreover, I think you alluded to this, that election season fuels kind of what political scientists call effective polarization, the kind of the out group hostility. So while you're trying to bring people together, I mean, election seasons are the perfect time where kind of effective polarization is at its highest, where we see people of the other party as outgroups and therefore different. And therefore we express hostility to out groups. And so I don't envy it.

Right.

Like I genuinely don't envy the kind of the trying to organize in a state where there's $130 million of outside money that's probably, you know, I don't have the numbers, but probably overwhelmingly negative. Really just kind of really saturating every commercial break with, with really negative vibes and hollow nonsense.

It's so hollow, there's no substance, there's no policy, there's no issues. It doesn't matter. Mean anything.

Well, it's 30 seconds. They're 30 second ads. They're not supposed to be about substance. Right. And I think that's, that's one of, one of the problems.

Right?

I mean there are many problems.

They have nothing substantive to say because the only thing substantive they can say are things that their donors would stop giving them money for. You know, what's, what's the solution to low wages? Raise wages? Well, your donors aren't going to like that, so you can't say that. So, okay, what do you say? Well, your neighbor who looks different than you is the problem. Be afraid of them. It's such crap, isn't it? It's just crap.

So how do you manage it? What are you doing? What is your plan for the next kind of three. Well, now, next month, but kind of next month to five months as you kind of cope with organizing during an election season and then trying to navigate post election season, which is also gearing up to be contentious as well, because now one party is, is actively denying election results and is preparing the ground to usurp office if it doesn't go their way. And so it's a very fraught time on top of kind of the ordinary circus of election season in a swing state. And your job is to try and navigate that. And that's very challenging.

Yeah, absolutely. And our job to get back to earlier in the conversation is to present a vision of democracy. See, that is better than the vision of authoritarianism and fascism. That that's coming from pretty scary places. And so during election season, our job is to kind of point out what it could be. We point out the absurdity and the contradictions in the system. Everything gravitates toward money. The guy with the gold makes the rules, et cetera, and talk about what a democracy could accomplish if it wasn't such a clown car full of absurd buffoonery that that's masquerading and is just a facade for just greed and oppression and systemic theft. We could build a great world. And so the goal during election season for March on Harrisburg, organizationally is to kind of start building into the next session. We made our last big push on September 12, and then from that, we went into reflection mode, debrief mode, and we've been crafting our plan for the next two years over the last few weeks, and then that'll continue for another four few weeks. We're building up a school internally to better structure our leadership development and our curriculum. We're planning to crisscross the state on a barnstorming tour. Adam, we're going barnstorming again late spring of next year. We're charting out kind of what the future holds and taking this time to build up our internal infrastructure, to build up our movement strength and our organizing, knowing that there's going to, of course, be mobilizations and fights in the new year, because no matter who wins this election, no matter which office, the fight stays the same, which is trying to create a government of, by, and for the people. And that's what our deadline is. It's not any electoral cycle or any election. Our deadline is democracy. Our deadline is justice. It's peace. And so we just try to tune out the electoral nonsense, try to keep everybody as educated and informed on the absurdity that it is, and get ready to keep pushing, knowing that, of course, they're not even passing laws now. I mean, all they're doing in the legislature is just political stunts for electoral purposes. My God, the week that we were there, September 12th, they passed. They had 17 total votes over those three session days, and they held 20 campaign fundraisers. I mean, that's what they're doing. That's what the season is. So nothing's going to pass now anyway.

Yeah, no, that's.

That's.

That's very helpful. You know, I'll just conclude, Michael, with. With kind of a simple question, which is, all right, we started with fear. We kind of talked about how you cope with fear, but. But what gives you hope? What. What is it about all this stuff, right? I mean, there's a way to read our conversation, or listen to our conversation, rather, that is kind of bleak. This is kind of a little bit bleaker than I wanted it to be, Michael. I wanted it to be a little more jovial, but I guess I started it off on the wrong foot talking about fear. But I think there is a way to read our conversation that is trying to grapple with some of the issues that we do in an effort to make us stronger as we go into the kind of the next phases of this fight for democracy. And so what is it that keeps you grounded? What keeps you hopeful?

My hope comes from the work. Not to keep falling back on it, but the work really is the antidote to fear, and it really is the source of. Of hope. When you're doing the work with good people pushing in the right direction, you're confident in your tactics, you see the strategy. You can get to the finish line. You can see the road to victory. That fills you with hope. It really is just getting into the arena, just getting into the fight, overcoming all of the obstacles that keep us all from doing that. So many of those are just mental and many are physical as well, and just diving in. That's where the hope comes. Comes from. The hope comes from success that we've had. We're winning. You know, there's no doubt that we get further every session with certain bills. We've passed other bills already. The movement keeps growing. The chapters keep growing. The working groups keep growing. The number of bills that we can fight in any one time keeps growing. The capacity of the poor people's campaign, which we're a part of, keeps growing. It's movement season. We're building up to something here. You know, this is, as Reverend William Barber says, this is the third Reconstruction era. History's on the upswing right now for us. You know, we're confident that if we organize and if we fight, we'll. We'll win. And it really all comes down to that. The future is not written. It's in our hands. And I have faith in our tactics, faith in the organizing, and that's where the hope comes from. You know, Adam, if the old phrase is, first they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. They're done laughing. They're not laughing anymore. In Harrisburg, they're fighting. So soon enough, we shall all win. You know, if there's a new hope. And then the Empire strikes back. Well, after that, the Jedi return, you know, you come back and you win. So we've seen the empire strike back and confident. Oh, we're confident that Pharaoh is not God and we shall win.

I couldn't agree more, Michael. You know, one of the things I think about is, you know, when we met for the first time in 2016, you know, I think that we'd be very satisfied with how far that democracy, democracy movement has come. And there's plenty more ways that we can get stronger. We've talked about many of them. But you're right. I mean, every year we grow stronger, and every year there's more and more backlash. But we persevere, and the movement does go stronger, even if there are times where it's hard to not be so fearful. But when we organize together, that's how we get through it. And I think that's the real. The real takeaway from this conversation today. Michael. So, you know, maybe not exactly the direction I thought we'd go today, but this was. This was a very cathartic conversation. Michael. I never know where our conversations will go. And I'll have to have you back on soon. This has been another episode of another way. I'll see you next time.

Sa.

It.