S7E9: Conclusion

This is Larry Lessig. This is episode 9 of season 7 of the podcast Another Way. This is our final episode for this season as we're just about to shift into a new season to explore the litigation challenging super PACs that will begin in the Court of Appeals at the First Circuit at the end of July. But in this season, I've been talking to my friend Ben Heppern, trying to find some common ground about our very different views about this president and this moment in our history. This final episode is maybe the most aggressively demanding, at least by me, for Ben to acknowledge what I think he needs to acknowledge, and which in this episode you'll hear him confess, that It's hard for him to express support for what this president has become, but I'll let you hear that yourself. After this episode, this conversation is going to shift into a new location and a new podcast. That podcast is going to be called Left/Right. And as you'll hear at the opening episodes of that podcast, The aspiration for that podcast is that it finds a leader who can facilitate many conversations like this with many different people. I'm going to launch a new conversation with another friend from Loyalsock, Pennsylvania, Howard Woodruff.

That conversation has already been recorded. And it will be available as soon as we get that podcast available.

So the links for that podcast will be on the website Equal Citizens, and you can find it if you search for Left/Right on any podcast platform, let's say beginning by the middle of July. But right now, We'll close down this season with this episode. I hope you enjoy the conversation.

So it's been a while, and as I said in the email, we are going to shift directions because we've got our case coming up, which is, we hope, going to take down super PACs. So we're going to do a season quickly about that case. So this is going to bring the end of our season, which we tried to end before, but it just didn't happen. But now I think we're going to try— I'm going to try harder to end our season. You know, I mean, we can continue to talk, you and me, but, but the podcast is coming to an end. So, you know, we've been talking for a long time. We've been talking for a year and a half. I just wonder where you see things right now and whether we see the same thing.

Well, that's a good question, Larry. I don't know if we see the same thing or not. Well, I think there's a lot of— overall, I think there's a lot of positives and I think there's a lot of negatives. I think that I see a lot of similarities between all the presidencies. There's ups and downs, constant turmoil in the world, and we're dealing with that. I think our last session we talked about Losing our moral compass. And I think that's really where I'm at right now. Some of these things that we're dealing with is the compass isn't pointing to the north, for example, or whatever, however you want to say that. I just think there's a lot of things that need to be changed. And I think it all goes back, or a lot of it goes back to greed and money-making. And we're dealing with some things in this area right now that I probably fully don't understand, but data centers going across farmland and different things like that.

So they're building a data center in Williamsburg?

In Muncie. One in Muncie, one in Allenwood. One's already built in Allenwood and they're trying to get power to it. And of course they want to go across preserved farmland and we're kind of against that. These farmers are against it. I'm against it as a Farm Bureau president. And I also sit on the Farm Preservation Board. So we don't— we're trying to save farmland. We don't want, uh, you know, electrical towers to go through for certain, you know, private business. This is not a— this is not a public, um, right-of-way. It's a private right-of-way. And it's— it's causing a lot of uproar right here, right now. So there's— there's just a lot of things that, you know, I don't think are— maybe the best way to say it is we're not educated enough, perhaps, on some things. And some things are— All about making money and greed. And I don't see the flip side of it, Larry. I don't see the flip side of— and what I mean by that is trying to tell people to maybe not use as much, maybe to enjoy life a little bit more and not have so many privileges or conveniences. I don't know how you want to put that, but it's just like— So many things are here today and they weren't here yesterday. And you see the best of both worlds here in our community because we have a large Amish community over the mountain and they're still plowing with horses and so on. And then you see these tractors that are huge and doing the work of 10 men in a day as compared to what we used to do. So it's kind of a troubling time that way, where, for me anyhow, that I'm seeing a lot of greed and a lot of things that are taking over instead of enjoying life a little bit more and trying to, you know, slow down a little bit.

Yeah, I mean, so, you know, we've, for the whole year and a half, talked about our common view about the greed and the corruption. But I wonder whether we both see the presidency as like a deeply corrupt presidency?

I don't know that I see it corrupt. I think that there's definitely problems. And I think, I think that about every presidency though, or have thought that about every presidency. I don't think anybody's perfect. And I just don't know what's in the backdrop of everything. You know, I see the constant, the constant lying on both sides, you know, and I'm kind of sitting back and looking at both sides and I see it on both sides. And I'm not doing a lot of research and checking, but let's just use the example of this reflection pool. President Obama spent a lot of money on it. Now President Trump is spending a lot of money on it. Is that well-spent money by either president? And I'm probably thinking, well, it probably isn't. But what do I know? I understand exactly where you're coming from, the corruption and different things. But again, I'm also looking at it and saying, I just made this comment today about being on the school board about they're griping about one guy and I'm saying, so he never did anything right? And I think just like President Obama or President Biden, they've done a lot of good and they've done some things that I don't agree with. And it's the same thing with President Trump. I think he's done a lot of good.

Yeah.

And there's some things I don't necessarily agree with. But I don't know, it just seems like that's the pattern that we're looking at repeatedly.

Okay, but I mean, so you can say there are bad things on both sides. But I just wonder whether you can really say that they're comparable. I mean, we've never had a president who so openly kind of sold pardons before, right? I mean, the guy has Granted pardon after pardon to convicted fraud people who, with every single case, those people have given either money to his super PAC or money to something else that he cares about, like millions of dollars.

Right.

And in exchange, they get a pardon. That's just literally never happened in the history of the United States.

No, I disagree. I disagree with that part. There's no question about it. I don't like it. I disagree with it. But again, I know it may not be equal and it may not be, But I disagreed with the opening of the borders and letting all those people in, and now it's closed, and I agree with that. So I get it, you know, Larry, it's like there's a lot of good and, and there's a lot of bad. And so you want to, you want to put a higher rating on the things that he's doing that is bad versus Hunter Biden, you know, selling, selling out the favors and making money and all that stuff. I don't know the extent of all that. And I don't know the extent of what Trump is doing either, but I think they're both bad, so.

Okay, so I would agree with you, they're both bad. And we're not gonna come to an agreement about the numbers, but what I wanna kind of understand is, if we did agree about the numbers, would we see it in the same way? So I'm just gonna say that the numbers that people have put together are that this man and his family has made literally billions of dollars in the 18 months that he's been president, leveraging insider information. For example, you know, this, this report that he, uh, um, just had to reveal, you know, that showed all of his insider trading as president. He's had literally 3,600 stock trades in the first quarter of the year, 3,600. And, you know, patterns like, for example, buying shares in Apple and then a couple days later going on television telling everybody, oh, you ought to be buying Apple. Or the same thing with Nvidia, doing, you know, buying shares and then touting this company like that is, you know, so if you believe that's in fact what happened, if you believe that in fact he's leveraging his power to give money to his family, if you believe that, you know, he sued the government for $10 billion because of some contractor who released his tax returns, and then he settled, and the settlement was the government could never prosecute him for any past tax fraud or future tax fraud, as well as, you know, this whole idea of a $1.7 billion settlement. slush fund for people who, um, had stormed the Capitol. If you believed all that was true, do you, do you think that there's anything comparable in Biden or Obama or Bush or Clinton or any of those guys?

I would say no. I would say no, Larry. I would say, yeah, I, I understand. It's, it's, it's been consistent. corruption that way. I get that. And yeah, is he— is he bad? Are you saying he's, he's really good at it? I mean, why didn't the— why didn't the government stop it?

Why doesn't the government stop it? Well, that's a really important point. You know, what happened was the government used to have checks inside of the executive branch that would have stopped it. But the Trump administration has a theory of the executive power, which is now being tested in the Supreme Court. I think probably this week, the Supreme Court's gonna issue a decision about this. But the basic principle that Trump has been operating on is that he's allowed to fire anybody inside the executive branch. So the Justice Department was filled with people who would have stopped it, and all of those people have been fired. The inspectors general, fired. Everybody who would be any resistance to him at all has been fired. And, you know, the Attorney General is his personal lawyer. So the Attorney General is like negotiating that Trump faces no consequences even if they prove that he was a tax fraud because there's nobody to say no. So that's a radically different reality, right?

Mm-hmm.

And if it's, you know, so even if you concede, even if I concede, which I don't think is true, but let's concede that Hunter Biden made $12 million off of whatever deal he was involved with in Ukraine. I don't think it's true, but let's say that you concede that. $12 million compared to $2 billion, at some point you've got to, we've got to be able to say there's a difference here, right?

Oh yeah, definitely. There's definitely a difference, you know. And I would go with the premises, Larry, that it's like this. They're both wrong. And that's like saying, I don't know, I cheated on a test and I cheated on 3 answers and somebody else cheated the whole test. You're both wrong. Should somebody be punished more for doing that or not doing it? I get it. I think it's so corrupt that it's not even funny. And I get the corruption. But I think one of the things that I was Really would like to tell you is that for so long, the American people have looked at this corruption and said, we can't do anything about it. It's going to get worse in my mind because you look at it and you say, okay, this person went in, they had $50,000 in their bank account, they came out of Congress 12 years later and they're a multimillionaire or they have $30 million. How's that possible? Well, it's, it's the corruption that is everywhere. And, you know, the middle class is just looking at it and going, it's so big and it's so bad, we can't do anything about it.

Well, I agree. I, and we ought to be frustrated and angry about it. Um, but I mean, what else we should do about it is like, say, I can't support somebody who engages in that kind of corruption. Like, I, you know, I just don't support it. You know, I don't support him.

I agree with you, Larry, but I— like I said, I'm just— the common man is looking at it, said, okay, maybe Trump's in bed, maybe he's doing this, maybe he's putting money in his pocket, but did he close the border? Because that's what I wanted. I wanted that border closed. And you're going, yep, he did that. So it's, it's, it's like those things in life, you know. I don't like that coach, but he wins. I don't like this principal, but boy, does he take care of the kids. You know, so I mean, I think the American public is looking at a lot of these things and they say, well, that's what he ran on. You know, he ran on closing the border. And I'm all for that because I'm tired of looking in the paper and seeing a Lincoln Riley being murdered by— I'm tired of seeing a white girl sitting in the back of the bus and a Black guy coming up and cutting her neck. And, and he shouldn't be here. And they focus on that too. And I think that's one of the biggest issues that, you know, we're looking at. I think the common person is looking at those things and saying, yep, Larry, you're right. President Trump is in— is taking some money. He does it better than anybody else. He did it better than Nancy Pelosi and all those people. But it's been going on, and we're going to all sit here and go, they're all crooked, every one of them. And It's it's tough for me to say that because I have friends that are you know U.S. senators and I like them and they're good people and then but you're looking at those situations and it seems to be rampant everywhere.

Yeah, but but Ben, it's just not comparable. I mean, you know, I there might be. I mean, you know, I'm going to concede that there's some insider trading that they've tried to stop and a lot of people have. fought to stop it. But no president has made $2 billion after 18 months as president. No president.

Right.

Like, it's just— this is, you know, black and white. It's as clear a difference as it could possibly be. And so I agree with you. Maybe— so this is the other point that we've, like, had agreement on from the very beginning. You— I mean, you from the very beginning said that there's terrible things about him, but there are good things. He gets things done. Okay, like what? I mean, for example, what are the promises that he made coming into office? No new foreign wars. And not only did we have a new foreign war, we had many. I mean, you know, between Venezuela and this Iran war. But this Iran war is a total loss, a complete loss.

Right.

You know, he ridiculed Obama because Obama forgave $1.5 billion or allowed Iran to get back $1.5 billion of their money.

Right.

But he's guaranteed up to $300 billion to rebuild the country he spent $70 billion bombing to get a deal which is no deal at all. Like, they've not had to give up anything on their nuclear program. There's no inspections. that are required on the nuclear program. You know, it's basically— and they now control the Straits of Hormuz, which means they will shut it down whenever they're not getting what they want and charge people for using it. It's a total failure, a total loss. And so tell me, what are the things— what are the great things? Like you say, okay, he shut the border and now we don't have immigrants. that are, you know, okay, last year, the total number of illegal immigrants who committed crimes that were, you know, arrested, total, 29. I mean, like violent crimes, the kind of murder crime that you're talking about.

Right.

What we've got is media, like, makes it sound like, you know, every corner you've got an immigrant. But in fact, immigrants on average are less violent and the Americans in America right now, right? So, so you say that what we've got is like dealing with the immigrant issue. Well, okay, maybe, you know, remember the Republicans negotiated a deal with the Democrats in the last administration to have the strongest border closing program ever and like fund the border in an extraordinary way. And remember, coming into that election, Donald Trump said, Do not pass that deal because I want to preserve the issue for me. And so they backed away from the deal. They had worked it out. You know, so tell me, what is the thing that he promised he'd do that he's actually done? You know, we don't have prices going down. Prices are going up.

Well, I get that. Everything— it's like everything, though, Larry. It takes— it does take time for the prices to come down and go up and all that stuff. And it's not just It's not just his administration. And I remember you telling me that when a president takes over, it's truly the last president that ran things and it lingers for a while. So this food industry and so on is just so complicated to me in agriculture, and there's so many factors. I wish the president could do the right things, But I don't think any president can come in and do the right thing. Like, for example, in the food issues, there's wildfires, we've lost cattle, we've, we've, you know, had the flu, the bird flu and different things. There's no way that any president, whether it's Biden or Trump or Obama or whoever, are gonna be able to come in and fix some of those things because we've gotten so large and, you know, different aspects of it. And it— people are trying, but I don't know that it's really— how do I want to say this? They're trying, but sometimes the solutions they come up with are nearsighted or not the best. And I mean, you can look at different examples. So in the agriculture industry, for example, they've started breeding their dairy cows to beef cows because we need beef cows. Well, now they're running into a situation where they don't have enough dairy cows to replace the dairy cows they had. Now what do you do? You know, it's like we correct one thing to do the other thing. And I know that's just in agriculture, but in, but in this whole, in this whole world, you know, the, the threat of this, this Middle Eastern war and so on and nuclear power. I mean, what is the truth? Were they gonna, were they gonna bomb us? Were they gonna this? Were they gonna that? I don't know. I mean, when you, when you see the news and they're, and they're chanting death to America and all that stuff, are you supposed to believe it or aren't you? And that's on all news channels. That's just not one this way or one that way. I mean, you know, it's all of them. And, you know, trying to decipher what's right. And you're not gonna hurt my feelings. I don't agree with a lot of things that, you know, Trump does. And is it fair? No. Is he better at it than everybody else? I don't know.

Okay, but look, but Ben, come on. Inflation was going down. He comes in and he imposes a bunch of tariffs. Every economist says this is just going to drive up inflation. What's happened to inflation? It's gone up. In Williamsport, there's a great site. The site is called whatchanged.us. So you can put in the zip code. So I put in 17701. The average tariff impact for people in 17701 is $1,082 a year. Grocery prices have gone up 4% in the time since he's been president. Housing costs up 6.3%. Gasoline has gone up 25%. So they're at $4.26 a gallon in your region since January of 2025. So these are the consequence of his policy choice, a policy choice that every economist looked at and said, this is idiotic. It's just idiotic. It's not going to achieve what you say it's going to achieve. Not going to be a A boon to manufacturing, and it hasn't been a boon to manufacturing. Instead, it's been prices. It's been a cost that consumers have to pay, and that's what everybody said would happen. And he said, no, the foreign company— the foreign governments would pay. And what they did when they estimated the consequence was that they found the consumers paid 95% of the tariff cost, what the economists had said they would pay. So, you know, he bears responsibility for that. The economy is screwed because of his policy choice. And that policy choice is, you know, it's not Biden's fault. So to the extent the economy is puttering, it's puttering because of what he did. And then, you know, what's the other thing he promised he would do when he came to power? Same thing he promised the first administration. cut average person's taxes. What did he actually do? Cut taxes for the super rich. 95% of Americans paid more tax this year than last year because of the so-called tax cut. 95%, Ben.

Right.

And that's his choice. That's not Biden, that's him. So like, what did he promise that he did? Did he eliminate student debt? Did he lower drug prices? Did he use tariffs to give affordable childcare? These are his promises. Did he protect Medicare and Medicaid like he promised again and again and again? No, he cut them. He cut both of them. Right? So what is it that he did that you're so proud of that makes all of these other things, the corruption, the stupidity on the tariffs, the fact that we're fighting about a stupid ballroom, which he promised and promised and promised we wouldn't pay for. And now the Republicans have, like, passed $500 million to pay for this stupid ballroom. And this man, this one president, one out of 46— he's the 46th, you know, 46 people have been president, right?

Right.

This one man is— the debt has gone up 25%. 25%. I'm glad it didn't go up by 25%. 25% of the debt of the United States, the total debt of the United States, is in Trump's term. 25% of the debt. So he promised you he'd end the debt. He hasn't ended the debt. He's the most prolificate president we have ever had. So what's the good part?

Well, I, I, I gotta tell you, Larry, I, I get it. I'm, I'm not so proud of what you're saying I'm proud of him. I just I guess I would sit back and I would think that a lot of the things that you're talking about and you're saying, I'm not going to dispute. I know there's a lot of downs and all that stuff, but I don't necessarily believe that everything that he's done has been wrong in the fact that— so you're telling me that as we're raising minimum wage, that doesn't have an effect on any of the cost?

We're not raising minimum wage. What are you talking about? He didn't pass any minimum wage increase. We haven't had a minimum wage increase, I don't know, what, 20 years? The federal minimum wage is totally flat.

Right. But I'm saying, if you're doing things of that nature, I watched one of the people out in California, one of the running mates were insinuating that $50 an hour should be the minimum wage. And when people say those kinds of things, it just falls onto us commoner, so to speak. And, and again, we're just down on the government and, and different things like that. And I get it, Larry, you, you can, you can be upset and, and angry and all that stuff. And I, you know, as far as being proud of Trump, um, you know, the, the ballroom, I, I don't know. I don't know what— who's paying for what. I get it.

Um, well, I mean, you do agree, right? He said he would pay for it and his friends would pay for it, right? Right.

Right.

And you agree that they're now not gonna pay for it, we're gonna pay for it.

Yeah, I didn't, I didn't know that. I knew that they were saying it was private donors and all that. And again, I, I just think that's how politics works. And I guess all of us are—

Yeah, well—

Maybe different, you know? Yeah, well, that's—

yeah, so now we're paying for it. But the other part, the corruption part, again, is that the Washington Post did a study. Half the people identified as the donors to build the ballroom, which is not actually gonna pay for the cost of the ballroom, but half of the people who've pledged something have won new or expanded federal contracts worth more than $50 billion. You know, it's a level of corruption, Ben, we just never see ever in the history of America. Like, and at what point is it too much? At what point do you say, okay, I'm off the boat, I can't go with this anymore?

Right.

Or just think about his ego. The guy's putting his face on a $250 bill. He wants to build a, you know, like an Arc de Triomphe. He wants to build one of those arcs right in Washington, D.C. And when he was asked, what's this for? He said, for me.

Right.

He is, you know, if you say, what's the number of self-branded programs, initiatives, and buildings that different presidents have done? while they were president. Jimmy Carter, zero. Ronald Reagan, zero. George Bush, zero. Bill Clinton, zero. George W. Bush, zero. Barack Obama, zero. Joe Biden, zero. Donald Trump, 10. You know, the Kennedy Center— no, no, it's the Trump Kennedy Center. I mean—

Right.

Like, again, we started this conversation, Ben, when I said, I don't get how somebody who grew up with the values that you grew up with— 'cause I know those values, they were the values I grew up with. can look at this and say, this is something to admire?

I don't know that I'm admiring it, Larry. I don't know that I'm admiring it. I don't, I don't know that that's the right word for me. I know that it's, it's definitely different. I know that. And I, you know, we've had some sessions where I said it's just a matter of which crook you're going to elect. You know, I know that doesn't sound good, but You know, who, who, which guy is going to do, you know, less crooked things. And the vanity of Donald Trump, that, that is inevitable. I mean, I, I, you are so spot on. I get it. As I think many of them are. There, there is a vanity, you know.

Okay. But again, no president has ever done this. None.

You know, somebody's got to be the first.

What? No, nobody has to be the first. Why does somebody have to be the first? You know, if you go to Washington, D.C., it's like the Soviet Union. You go to Washington, D.C., and on the Justice Department, there's a huge banner of that kind of mugshot of Donald Trump.

Right.

Like, you know, it's like a Soviet or like North Korea. Like, the idea that this is the kind of values that we portray now is terrifying. And what's more terrifying is In the face of this, people aren't willing to get off the train and just say enough. I'm not putting up with it anymore. Like, you know, the Republicans in Congress, you know, the things that he is doing, the war, the tariffs, you know, the Epstein files, none of those Republicans support the programs. They don't. None of them support the values behind those programs. They don't support the tariff policy. They don't support, you know, none of it. And how many of them are willing to stand up to him?

Right.

3 or 4. And so, like, Thomas Massie stands up to him. You know, Trump comes to office. What is his promise? I'm gonna release the Epstein files. The FBI people, you know, Kash Patel, Dan Bongiovino, they all say immediately, we're gonna release the Epstein files. And what do they then do? Work as hard as they can to block the release of the Epstein files. Why? Because they are filled with this man spending time with these young girls at Epstein's place. I mean, Donald Trump said he never went. He never went to the island. The latest numbers show 345 times. You know, so what, do you forget those? You forget that?

Right.

You know, so the point is, and, and you tell me why the guy went to war, right? I mean, you know, um, last year he bombed the nuclear facilities in Iran, and after he did it, he said they are, quote, obliterated. Obliterated.

Right.

And then he says this year, oh no, no, we got to go to war because they're going to drop a bomb on us. How? I thought they were obliterated. But what was really happening Is there was too much press on the Epstein files. So the idea that a guy goes to war— a guy goes to war to divert attention from this embarrassing political fact that he is shot through the Epstein files, he has Jeffrey Epstein as his best friend. You know, I just, I don't know at what point it's just— impossible to say anymore that one is okay with this. And you say you're not okay with this, but what are you saying actually, that you don't support what he— you don't support the president, or you think the president should stop, or he should— the Congress should stand up to him, or the Supreme Court should stop him? You know, what are you— what is the responsibility you're taking for this?

Well, I think you're You're exactly right, Larry. I'm looking at my elected officials to do the right thing. And from what you're saying and what you're portraying is nobody's doing the right thing. President Trump's not doing the right thing. The elected officials, whether you're Republican or Democrat, are not doing the right thing. So who's left to do the right thing? And you can say, well, you shouldn't be supporting him.

All right.

So I don't support him anymore. What do you want me to do? I mean, I get it. I'm not out there, you know, you know, you know, Trump, Trump, Trump. I don't like— I don't— I'm not that kind of a person. But at the same time, we have all these elected officials, we have Supreme Court justices, we have everybody. And what are they doing?

Well, I mean, that's, that's a, that's really important what you've said. And so, but I mean, have you asked your congressperson? Like, Who's your congressperson?

Yeah, I talked to those guys. I talked to Gene, I talked to Hamm, Joe Hamm. I mean, these are representatives, and Jamie Flick, and they're— and, and, you know, they pretty much all say the same thing. It's just a showboat down there in our government. You know, they holler, they scream, they pound on the table, and nothing gets done. Nothing gets done. And, you know, you just shake your head. And, and these guys, I think, are good men, Good guys, but they're just— the establishment is so big and so corrupt that I don't even know how you ever, ever defeat it, right? Or change it, or, you know, well, do anything about it.

I mean, you know, one way to do that would be to prosecute it and like to say that, you know, have more Republicans, you know, obviously, obviously the Democrats are going to say They're against him. But more Republicans that stand up and say this corruption is just not okay. It's just not allowed.

I agree with you, Larry. I do. And I can sit here from Pennsylvania, and I have, you know, Governor Shapiro on my Facebook, and he posts this stuff. And every time he posts things, I read it and I go, you know, this is something that probably really didn't need to be done, but it divides people. You know, it's always— it, it just seems like it's dividing people constantly, what he says, what he does, you know. And he's one of those guys too that's, you know, bashing Trump. Don't, don't bash Trump. Tell me what you're doing to make things better as opposed to bashing Trump or whatever. I mean, I think, I think the common man— and if I'm, and if I'm that guy, if I'm that middle-of-that-road guy, that common guy— We're just tired of all the other things that are going on. And somehow we do align with Donald Trump a little bit in his thoughts and his beliefs as far as a lot of the things that are somewhat controversial, like the gay, LGBTQ, all that stuff, all the energy that's spent on that. And in our mind, it's just like we're tired of that too. Right. So the fact that he's you know, claims to be patriotic and, and, you know, different things of that nature. I mean, these are what it gives us. I think it gives the common man some hope, right?

And— Yeah, but it's just, it's just not true though. Like, what he's saying is just not true. Like, he is, he is like a pathological liar. And the question is, when are people going to realize the lie? Like, you know, you know, he's like the military. Just think about the military. The idea that the military, people in the military support this guy is just astonishing to me. When I went to, you know, when I came to the reunion, I think I told you I spent the day.

Yep.

I went out for the Kamala Harris, but I was with a veteran, a Vietnam veteran who had, you know, a t-shirt on and the t-shirt said suckers. And, you know, and John Kelly, you know, this was all rumored before, but John Kelly has just come out and like absolutely confirmed terms. That this man says the soldiers are suckers. Like, he doesn't understand why they would do it, as nothing is in it for them. And so, you know, that's what he thinks about, you know, the military people or, you know, the veterans. You know, they have had— you know, there used to be a program that would help veterans when they needed help on their mortgages, right? They just canceled that. 33,000 veterans kicked out of their homes. So like, but how do— this is the question, like, how do military people like put up with this?

Right. But I have 2 sons that are active in the military, and they said under Donald Trump, it is so much better. You know, and, and what do you— those guys are there, they're active. Ben's, you know, Ben flies to the Philippines. He's a commander out in Washington. Justin flies Blackhawks for the Army. And He's gone. You know, not only does he work for the Army, but I mean, they were fighting fires in Florida, and now he's going to go to the border in Arizona.

Is he going to guard the reflecting pool in Washington?

No, he's not. He's not. He doesn't have to do that. No, I get it, Larry. I mean, but, you know, and again, Ben, you know, Ben's a commander, and he said it is so much better under Trump and some of the things that they're putting down. And I get that. And overall, maybe it's not better, but in his position and what he's seeing and what he— it's— and one of the things Ben will tell me, he's in intelligence interrogation. He said, Dad, don't believe anything the news says. None of it's true. I'm like, okay. But he doesn't elaborate because he's not supposed to and he can't. He says, so much of the stuff on the news is not true and the things that they're saying.

I thought you had a daughter who was also involved in the military.

She's in the Air Force, but she's since retired. She's had a girl and twins, and she's going to have another one here in August. Her term was up and she decided that with the kids, she really enjoys being a mother. step down from that.

I totally understand. But like, okay, so, so what would she say about this? So Pete Hegseth— there's a list of like notable Americans buried at Arlington Cemetery, and Hegseth has had names removed from that list, right? And every name that's removed has either been a person of color or a woman. So the only people left on that list are white men. Is that— is the military just for— I mean, are the only people in the military who are Worthy of commendation, white men?

Not at all. Not at all, Larry. You know that.

I know that. But, but my point is, like, if we all know that, how can the fact that this happens be something that more people don't say, what the hell?

I, I can't, I can't answer that for everybody. I don't know. I, I'm— that, that was the first time I've heard this, and, and I would say that's not right. I have no idea what what's going on there. No, I get it. I don't know. I have no idea. I can't imagine why you would do that, but—

Well, I think you can imagine. It's just hard to accept.

Well, I don't know. I can't imagine why you would do something like that. That doesn't even make any sense. I mean, it makes no sense to me why you're— if you're the— what is he, the Secretary of Military or whatever? He—

Department of Defense. He calls himself Secretary of War, but it's Congress that defines that. passes the statute different.

I mean, Larry, it's kind of like, you know, something so trivial to me when you're not— not that that's not trivial, not that that's not important, but it's, it's to me, why are you even worrying about those kinds of things? It's over, it's done with, it's the past, it's history. Let it go, you know. And a lot of this stuff is, is like that with a lot of people, you know. We, we've replaced on our school board, we've replaced the athletic director, and we have one guy who's still bitching about the guy that we you know, replaced. Okay, he's gone. Stop worrying about it, you know. But, and we got bigger things to worry about than, than that, somebody that's already gone, you know. So I agree with you. I, I don't— I just think it's, it's, it's, it's terrible. Obviously it's terrible. I agree with you.

This—

the corruption is, is— so is the Supreme Court corrupt if they're not doing anything about it?

They're cowardly.

Look, cowardly.

Yeah.

And so I said it. I said it because I have my dad with me and we go to McDonald's now occasionally and listen to the Coffee Club. Right. And the one guy who's, I want to say early '90s as well, he's emphatic about all the people that knew that President Biden was not capable of running this country and they lied about it. He said they should all be in jail. And that— and I'm like, okay, that's your opinion, right? I mean, it's over with now. And I guess you just move on. But the people that were the— what he said, the 11 or so that were in charge, knew that President Biden could not run the country. But yet they lied about it.

Yeah, I mean, so I mean, look, I think I am so furious at Joe Biden. I can't begin to describe my fury. because he backed off from what I thought was a pretty clear commitment that he was gonna be a one-term president, a transition to the new generation. And look what he did, he ran again. But I actually am close with friends, I have close friends who like were in the White House with him. And what they will tell you, and this is familiar to anybody who has elder parents, is that, you know, most of the time he was totally fine. Then sometimes he would be out of it. And then other times he was totally fine. totally back to being fine. But, you know, you can't look at Joe Biden and think about what he was going through and then compare him to this president, can you? I mean, this guy falls asleep in the middle of meetings, like, again and again and again, right?

Yeah.

I mean, you know, and he— everything that they say about Joe Biden, you would say 10 times about this president. So are we— is that really— I mean, should we lock up all the people that are not forcing this president out today?

Well, no, I get it. I'm just— I was just telling you what, you know, that's what people are talking about. That's what this, this guy was upset about. He was upset about that. And I'm like, okay, I get it. Sure, I get it. I understand what you're saying. No question about it. Right. But again, I'm just trying to, you know, look at it and say, yep, I agree with you. If I were to look at the last presidential ticket, I felt like I voted for the better of two evils. That's my thoughts. And I wish there were other choices. I wish there were better choices, but I didn't like Harris and I thought Trump was the better choice. Was I wrong? Obviously you're making—

When you voted for him, you didn't believe he was going to Make $2 billion in 18 months? No.

Yeah.

No, I didn't.

And you didn't believe he was going to go to war?

No, I didn't.

You didn't believe it threatened to take over Canada and Greenland?

Right. And again, Larry, you know, you're like me a little bit and you're saying, okay, are you creating noise to cover up something else? You know, which I think they do. And they get people upset about, we're going to, you know, get Greenland and then we're doing something over here you didn't notice. or whatever it is. No, I agree with you. I just wish somebody would come in and run the country and worry about us.

Yeah.

And like you said, if you have a veteran that has given a limb or an arm, why are we begging for money on TV for these guys? Why shouldn't they be taken care of? And then you turn around and you give $30 billion to a country somewhere, you know, why can't we, you know, take care of some of this? Why are these children's hospitals not funded? You know, why, why is that not part of our equation first and then worry about some of these other things? But I get it. I, I don't know. It's always been that way.

Well, it hasn't always been that way, but I mean, yeah, I think that's exactly the question to ask. Like, he takes $10 billion and he gives it to a board of Peace, which he controls. Like, he just takes our money, he gives it to a board of peace. He takes, um, $40 billion, he gives it to Argentina, right? He spends— I don't know, it's going to be $100 billion on this war in Iran, and then we have to pay another $100 billion— $300 billion to rebuild what we blew up. Um, how many millions is he going to spend on his Ark, you know, Arc de Trumpf, or the ballroom?

Right.

You know, it is a question of priorities. Like, the idea that we are starving veterans while we are, you know, building these huge monuments to Donald Trump is just outrageous. And I just think, you know, I think there are a lot of— I'm really admiring people whose politics I don't like at all, like Megyn Kelly. You know, Megyn Kelly, I had 2 clips of Megyn Kelly You know, one where she says, "Quote: I didn't expect the corruption to be quite as you know widespread as it's been, and the self-dealing and the lining of his family's pockets. Like that's been a bit shocking, and I expect did Trump? I didn't expect Trump to be so disrespectful of his base. I mean, you look across the board of the Trump family. I've never seen a family get so rich off a presidency. I didn't expect the corruption." to be as bad as it is. Or then, you know, when he threatened— when he threatened to annihilate Iran, right, to annihilate that civilization, to wipe out an entire civilization, she just lost it. She said, I'm just sick of this shit. I'm sick of it. Can't he behave like a normal human being? I mean, honestly, shut up about this 3D chess. You don't threaten to wipe out an entire civilization. We're talking about civilians. She said, in just a casual social media post. I mean, look, I'm the first, she says, to try to understand his strategy and not freak out over his weird social media posts. I've lived with it for 10 years. I've learned the hard way. Remember when he, you know, basically said she was bleeding from the mouth? And then he said— but then she says, and I truly think it was a gift because he really helped me understand what he does with social media. But this, she says, is completely irresponsible. responsible and disgusting. It is wrong. He can't be dignified, strong leader without threatening a bunch of war crimes. Quote, I am sick of this. Right? So, you know, I respect that, that she would say that.

Yeah.

Or even Joe Walsh. Remember Joe Walsh? You know, the conservative member of Congress? You know, he writes, I know way too many Americans no longer care about this, but I will never Never stop reminding them. Donald Trump is everything you teach your children not to be. He is cruel, ignorant, lawless, a bully, a coward, a cheat, an extreme narcissist, and a pathological liar. You would never work with him. You'd never work for him. You'd never want any woman you cared about to be involved with him. He is a horrible human being, and shame on us for electing him. That's a conservative. Right? So it just— I don't get why it's only a handful. You know, my former student Liz Cheney, she sacrificed her career. Um, Thomas Massie, he sacrificed his career. Uh, you know, there, there's a handful of them that are willing to stand up and realize they've got to step out. But the idea that we've got a Congress not willing to stand up to him, that are willing to tolerate this, is just— It is the, you know, I, I, my view is, as you know, you can say Donald Trump is a problem, and I think he's pathological. I think he's a malignant narcissist. And, but the framers of our Constitution thought that they had built a system that would protect us from that.

Right.

And that system was that if he, if he became a tyrant, an authoritarian, if he started taking control and violating law, then the first line of defense was Congress. And the second line of defense would be elections, we the people. And the third line of defense would be the courts. Well, okay, Congress has done nothing. Like, the Republicans refused to stand up to him. So they were wrong. Congress isn't a check on the tyrannical president. And, you know, the elections, well, because they've gerrymandered most districts. You know, it's maybe 5 to 10% of districts that are up for grabs. So even if, as is true today, 70% of Americans don't support him, still you're not gonna— you're gonna have an election where maybe the Democrats will squeak by with a majority because of the way gerrymandering works, right? And then the Senate, it's a totally different story. And the Supreme Court, well, you know, we'll see in the next month, we will see. My friend, former head of OLC, Jack Goldsmith, is still confident that the court is gonna stand up to him. But these next 3 weeks, we'll see. And so this whole system that the framers gave us to protect against the kind of malignant narcissist this man is, has failed. Has failed. And this is like terrifying because this is really the way democracies die.

Right. And I understand all that, Larry. And what if you sit back and you say, you know, one of the things we really haven't talked a whole lot about is God. And is this something that, I don't know, God has predicted? And, you know, that man's inability to govern himself is getting more and more evident. from the standpoint that, you know, we look what we did. We, we, we're supposed to be the greatest country in the world, and you're saying how basically how bad it is right now. But are we that much better than anybody else, or are we worse? You know, it's, it's, you know, these people that, um, you know, talk about, you know, God and, and saying, well, I'm— it's in God's hands, you know, he's doing whatever He sees fit. And I don't know if I agree totally with all that stuff. So I get it. I mean, I hear your voice. I know you're upset about it, and I get that. And you're certainly spot on a lot of these points. I just see it as a continuous corruption of this government and your Supreme Court. And like you said, Congress. And nobody's doing anything about it. And you just sit there and shake your head. And I, you know, like I said, I, I listen, you know, like I said, I've taken my dad to The Breakfast Club and I start listening to these folks and boy, they're, they're, you know, some are, we need to get rid of this and we need to do that. And, and, you know, they start on welfare and they start on all these things and it's very complicated. I get it. They're upset. And, you know, it's, it's It sometimes boils down to, Larry, it's just that Trump seems to be doing something about it, even if it's wrong. And I agree with you, most of the time it is. And I get it. And I don't know if this is a true fact or not, but just like the reflecting pool that Donald Trump redid and it got green, right? I guess the same thing happened to President Obama. He spent a ton of money too to get that thing so it looked good, and it turned green a month later. So, you know, and I really don't care about the reflecting pool.

I would like to take that $15 million and spend it on veterans, you know. I mean, it is interesting, like, I do think that we Americans are kind of stuck in our view about ourselves. Like, we think we're the greatest country in the world. There's a poll that asked, you know, Americans, what do you think we are number one at in the world. And so the— on that list, it was happiness. In fact, we are 24th. Education. In fact, we're 26th. Life expectancy. In fact, we're 46th. Um, climate. Uh, in fact, we're 57th. Social mobility, 27th. Income equality, last in the Western world. So what are we actually number one at? Imprisoning people. gun deaths, shooting school deaths, drug deaths, medical bankruptcy, wealth inequality, maternal mortality, child poverty, and believing we're number one. That's what we're number one at, right?

Yeah.

It's like, you know, and, you know, at a certain point, I just think that we've got to find a way. And I think that, you know, this is part of why I wanted to do this, and I'm so grateful you've been willing to do this— find a way to, like, come to an understanding that is more than just, you know, how, you know, becoming ignorant people who hate each other, to realize, you know, that there are real problems we gotta find a way to address. And as, you know, concerned as one might be about who plays on school, high school sports teams, it's nowhere in the top problems we've gotta face and solve as a nation, right?

And I think What you just said to me, Larry, certainly brings it home for me that we think we're number one and obviously we aren't. But then you start looking and you start thinking, well, why do all these people want to come here? It must be better than where they're at, which maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I don't know. But just believing in yourself is a huge thing, especially in sports. You know, coaching and, you know, you have a kid that believes in himself, you have something there, you know. So you have people that believe in their country and believe in themselves, you have something. Now, whether it's going in the right direction all the time is a different thing, you know. And, you know, I made the comment to one of the guys at this breakfast club the other morning about, um, you know, school retirement. And I said, are you, are you happy with the school retirement? And he looked at me, he said, you've got to be kidding me. I said, doesn't it come every month? And he said, oh, well, yeah. I said, well, you should be thankful for that, that it's coming every month. I mean, well, that part he likes, but wasn't satisfied with how much or what happened here, what happened there. So I get it. Some people forget to look at the end result and are not happy with what they're going through as far as the education part of it. So I certainly agree with you, Larry. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that I don't agree with you. I'm not proud of all the stuff that's going on. Of course, I haven't been proud about that for a long time. And I pick on, for example, Nancy Pelosi, for example. I just don't understand how somebody can be in Congress that long and not do better? You know, I mean, I just thought all of them, you know, out there in California, how many, how many millions or billions of dollars have they spent on that rail, that high-speed rail that, that has gone nowhere?

Yeah, total disaster. That's the biggest problem Democrats have is that they don't believe in making things work. There's a great book by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson called Abundance. Another one, even, I think, even better book by a guy named Mark Dunkelman called Why Things Don't Work, uh, Why Nothing Works, um, you know, which is about the fact that we've let all of these, you know, checks on government power make it so government can't do anything anymore. Like, every time government wants to do something, whether it's building houses or building rail or building power lines it gets vetoed by, you know, the million different lawsuits that get to be filed to stop it. Like, it's a disaster. It's a total disaster. And Democrats are as responsible for this as anybody. I mean, I think maybe more. Look at California. Like, they can't get anything done because they've, like, built out this infrastructure of what is called a vetocracy, you know, where everybody can veto anything. So I, I'm totally with you on that.

That's—

got to make government work. Like, when Ronald Reagan said government isn't the solution, government is the problem. Like, government has become the problem. And so we should make government work, but we should make it work for the people, not for the family of the president, right? We should make it work so that we're all getting billions of dollars wealthier, not like, you know, Don Jr. I mean, you know, I'm gonna— we're gonna— I'm gonna end you. I'm gonna give you one more as we come to a close here, but I just want you to get—

Okay.

I want you to get upset about this one, 'cause this really is, you know, okay, so Kazakhstan, you've heard of Kazakhstan, right?

Yeah.

Like, this is part of the former Soviet Republic. And one of the— the president of Kazakhstan calls Donald Trump and says to Donald Trump he wants to grant tungsten mining rights to an American company. And so the very next month, Eric and Don Jr. Get a stake in that American company pursuing that mining deal. And 6 days later, after they get their stake, Kazakhstan announces that the company is going to get access to the largest tungsten— undeveloped tungsten resource in the world. And then a few more months— weeks go by, and the U.S. government, run by Donald Trump, promises to set aside $1.6 $6 billion to fund the mining project in Kazakhstan. So we're handing money to Kazakhstan to mine in Kazakhstan so that Prince Erik and Prince Don get money from the stake that they have in this company that, of course, they have only because Donald Trump is president. We can talk about Hunter Biden all you want, but there's no comparison, right? This is the kid who takes an apple out of the store versus the guy who steals $1 million out of the bank. And if you, you know, if we can't tell the difference and like get furious about one and angry about the other, then I think we've lost all moral compass.

Oh, I, I agree with you. I mean, like you said, they're both wrong. One's more of a severe crime than the other. You're absolutely right, but they're both wrong. And I guess I think that's where a lot of this is coming from. We have this ability to say, like you said, believe in yourself and we believe in ourselves. And it's like, well, yeah, they both done wrong. And they're both wrong. So I don't care who did. I'm to the point where I don't care who did what. I don't care if you stole 2 apples or 3 and the other guy stole 8, you still stole and it should be punishable. But I get it. I understand exactly where you're coming from, Larry. It definitely, it's terrible. It's absolutely terrible. Inside trader, the government. And I could maybe ask you, why were you even interested in the government You know, and doing that when you were young. And yet when I looked at it, I thought it was corrupt back then.

Because I think we could make it so it's not corrupt. Because we got to make it so it's not corrupt. You know, like real problems we got to be able to solve. Like, you know, the fact that 300,000 Americans go bankrupt every year because of medical debt. You know how many go bankrupt from medical debt in Germany?

Zero. No.

Britain, zero. France, zero. Japan, zero. No other country comparable to the United States does anybody go bankrupt for medical debt. But in America, you can't afford, you know, healthcare. I mean, you can't because, you know, after the big beautiful bill, prices have effectively doubled for most people. Um, and if you can't— even if you can afford it, it's shitty insurance. And then you can't pay the bill, you go bankrupt. You know, this is, this is, this is the product of the corruption. And if you don't fix the corruption, then none of these things get fixed. And—

Right.

We gotta fix these things. If not for you and me, I mean, we're gonna be fine, Ben. Like, you know, no matter what happens, we're gonna be around. I mean, I, I'm not gonna be as lucky as your dad, so I'm not gonna be around for another 25 years. But, you know, we're, we're we're going to be around for a little bit, but, you know, the real problem is going to be our kids. I think of my, you know, 16-year-old daughter. Like, what is the future for her in a world where, you know, this kleptocracy in America flourishes? And the Speaker of the House— this is, this is the best part. Like, so Mike Johnson, Speaker of the House, is asked, how could you focus so intently on impeaching Joe Biden because of the allegations with Hunter Biden, and yet do nothing about the in-plain-sight corruption of Donald Trump? And you know what he said? He said the difference is Joe Biden tried to hide it and Donald Trump is completely open about it.

Right.

As if that makes it better. That makes it That's just signals to the whole world. This is a kleptocracy. You want to get something done in America? Pay the president. I mean, this is like third world shit. And yet there it is. The Speaker of the House is like endorsing the idea that we live in a complete kleptocracy and just learn to live with it because at least maybe you can get rich. Right.

No, I agree with you. I don't know what to say. I mean, yeah.

Okay, so here's the last thing, Ben.

You promised you were gonna come visit and you never did, so I'm kind of pissed.

I will, I will. I thought about that, and we get— trying to pick a good time to come up, and when everything settles down, and hopefully I can do that.

Yeah, after your farming is done, you, you come up, and then you're gonna drive up to New England maybe. Do you ski?

No, I don't.

Yeah, well, it's still beautiful to go hiking up.

Sure. Yeah, just come up and ride around.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, my friend, this has been a lot of fun, our year-and-a-half effort to see which things we can agree on, which things we don't.

Yeah, it's been fun. I'm glad I got a chance to talk to you, and hopefully we continue to, you know, spend some time together talking, and I'll come up and see you.

That would be great. That'd be great. And good luck with your dad and your family.

Yep, thank you.

All right.

That was the final conversation for this season of the podcast Another Way with Ben Heppern. As I've described, we've been trying to find some common ground, and as you hear in this episode, I was a little animated in my insistence. We'll see whether it was helpful. These podcasts have been produced by Equal Citizens and produced specifically by Josh Elstrow of Elstrow Productions. You can find this podcast on any podcast platform. Another way, we will shift into season 8 beginning next week with initial episodes around This case litigating the constitutionality of anti-super PAC regulations. Please tune in to that conversation as it is critical for the work of Equal Citizens. I'm grateful to Josh Elstrow for the help producing this podcast and eager to see the next. Thanks so much for listening and Keeping tuned to this story. Please tune in to the next season and the important fight around super PACs. This is Larry Lessig. Thanks for listening.

Thank you.