S7E7: Continuing The Conversation

This is Larry Lessig. This is the podcast Another Way. We're on the seventh episode of this season conversation I've been having with an old friend from high school, Ben Hepburn, who lives outside of Williamsport, Pennsylvania. We recorded this episode on June 14th, the President's birthday, the anniversary of the birth of the army, and the day when there would be both protests across the United States. No kings. And a celebration in Washington of the birthdays of the army and the President. This conversation presses on from last time when I was a little aggressive. I'm still pretty aggressive. I'm still pushing hard to try to break through common ground of why or whether one should, even from a conservative perspective, be supportive of this president. I hope you enjoy the conversation. Stay tuned at the end for what's coming after this. So to tell me what you're feeling, what are you thinking right now about? Well, we gotta, you know, what are you thinking about our president?

Well, you know, I, I, obviously there's a lot of things going on. I guess the way I look at it, Larry, and I'll be honest with you, I've been, I've been staying off a lot of the news feeds. I've been trying to, you know, just look at different things, get a little better sense of it. I, you know, one of my sons is in the military and he's in intelligence and interrogation, and he says, you know, half the stuff you see on TV is not even true. It's, it's only a smidgen of what's going on. So I guess what I'm saying is I just try to look at it just so I know a little bit of what's, what's happening. So, for example, if you said, well, what do you think about the riots in Los Angeles? I see what they're doing. I'm not going to, you know, I don't know a lot about it, but I see what's happening. So, been taking in a little bit of the news and just trying to decipher, but it seems to be affecting a lot of people, and I don't want to be affected, if that makes sense to you. I'm trying to keep my sanity through this insane time. As far as Donald Trump goes, I hear a lot of people and I kind of agree with them. This is what they voted for. This is what the people voted for. This immigration reform, you know, removing people. I know that it's, we always hear the worst of the worst and the best of the best, and we really don't know in my mind what the truth is. So, for example, I'll say to you this, you know, I, I know there's, there's farms around here that have immigration workers come in, all documented, they have their, you know, their visa cards, whatever, and that seems like that's working to me. And you know, I don't, I don't think that system is necessarily broken because I hear, you know, these congresswomen, for example, who's going to pick our food? Who's going to do this? Who's going to do that? Well, they already have these people in place and they seem to be doing a good job. You know, the problem with, you know, farming in the agriculture industry, it is seasonal work. So if I get a job and I'm picking strawberries, okay, that works for two weeks here, then I'm done. Right? So these immigration or even regular people that are willing to travel and to work where there's work, I mean, that seems to be working. I get it. But we dwell on all the things that are going on and then you throw in the stuff that doesn't pertain to that. Right? And oh, who's going to pick our food? Well, we got people that are doing that and they're doing it legally, but we try to cross member it so. Or, you know, cross reference so it doesn't make any sense to anybody. Oh, we, you know, we need these people. Well, I mean, we need people to work, certainly, but there's already a system in place that seems to be working here anyhow. I know, you know, apple orchards that bring in people that, you know, they're only there for a month, two months, and then they move to the next, you know, crop they're picking, for example, or harvesting or whatever they're doing. And that seems to be working pretty well. I mean, we have some, we have a mass amount of people working at one of our plants here up in Sugar Valley, Nichols, and those people are, from what I understand, you know, legally put here. They have their visa and they're working and that seems to be working. Okay, So I don't know, you know, if that makes sense, Larry, if I'm, if I'm saying it correctly, but some of the things that we got going are really working well. And then other people want to mix that in. You know what I mean?

It's something that, I mean, the immigration issue, certainly there's been a huge issue around farming, which the president just yesterday responded to, because what was happening is they were going into fields and just sweeping up people and throwing them off. And the farmers Many of them Trump supporters were like, whoa, you're just destroying my ability to run my farm. And so he's just announced he's changing his policy with respect to farming and to the entertainment, you know, like hotels and restaurants and things like that, which I, I take it to be a signal that it was going too far. And, you know, I think many people, I mean, you know, people who are upset about what's happening here are upset because of the kind of, you know, extremism and cruelty of it. You see, you know, if you weren't keeping yourself sane by not being on social media, if you were watching, you know, the TikTok feeds or Instagram feeds from at least the left side, you'd see all of these extraordinary images of like ice grabbing mothers leaving children by the side of the road as they take the mother away, because, you know, the allegation is she's here illegally or. What I find really outrageous is you've got these, you've got these people going to court to process their immigration status. They're in the process of securing their immigration status, and they're being caught at the court and taken from the court and deported. So there was a hearing in Congress about how people are taking, they're taking people with legal status and taking their, taking their legal status, and then they're no longer here documented. So because they're undocumented, they're being, they're being deported. So I mean, I think the big thing is just the kind of extremism of it and the cruelty of it. And, you know, I think that's triggering, that's triggering a bunch of people. But you might be right. Maybe that's what, you know, maybe that's what people voted for. I think the numbers are still that Biden was deporting more than Trump has. But you didn't see this kind of extremism in the way Biden was deporting during the time he was deporting. But I want to talk about a part that I just don't think people were voting for. So we talked last time about this whole tariff business and I told you the story about Vietnam. You know, so Vietnam was named as, like the top tariff, 46%. And then Trump announced a 90 day pause, and then Vietnam changed their law so they could grant a $1.5 billion resort contract to the Trump family. So I, you, you agree that was kind of outrageous at the time. But what's interesting in the time since is that we've seen the same pattern across the world. There are 20 countries which are subject to tariffs right now where the Trump family is negotiating resort deals, property deals, deals to get special access to the markets. Serbia was an example where they went through some process of forging, you know, getting documents which turned out to be forged, but to be able to give access to a cultural site to build a hotel for the Trump resorts. So in 20 of these countries, you've got these negotiations going on with Don Jr. And his whole family to take advantage of the threat of the tariff. And the family's profiting extraordinarily from this. You know, the net worth of the Trump family of Trump has gone up by $3 billion since he's been president. Now, I don't think anybody voted for that. I don't think anybody, you know, would say that's okay. Especially because when you think of the tariffs, this is basically, you're taxing Americans through tariffs to create leverage to build your own resorts. Now, who was for that? I just don't remember that person in this last election.

Right. No, I don't think. Obviously, Larry, I hear what you're saying. I agree with you. I don't think it's gonna change, no matter who is in there. You know, and I know you've said this before, and I agree with you. The corruption is just everywhere. But I go back and I think, okay, so Hunter Biden was selling these pictures he was painting, and I saw some of the pictures. Larry, I wouldn't have gave you 10 bucks for him. Right. And yet they were receiving hundreds and thousands of dollars for this. So the corruption is there. I get it. No, I wouldn't vote that Trump and his family could make deals. I get that. I understand. And I think sometimes we look at these things and we try to say, oh, you're doing things here, but I'm gonna point out all the bad things you do. And I get it. You're making your point, and you always have. You always make great points. And I agree with you. There shouldn't be. If you. If you take a public office like that, it shouldn't be for your personal gain. But how do you stop that? And how can we. It hasn't stopped. Nothing stopped.

I agree.

Nobody ever stops it.

Yeah, I mean, we can agree. I think we agree on the principle, but I still just don't. I don't get the comparison. I mean, I don't. You know, when they were trying to take down Joe Biden on the basis of what was going on with Hunter Biden.

Right.

You know, there was all sorts of Investigations, all sorts of reports. They were talking about, you know, I think in the range of $40 million. Okay. I don't know if it's true, but let's assume it's true. Okay, so we're talking about $40 million in the Biden administration, which is the corruption of the Biden administration. And now we have an administration where the Guy has earned $3 billion in net worth since he's been president, and not just through this game of, you know, the tariffs, you know, his whole crypto coin. The Saudis spent $2 billion on his crypto coin. Every single transaction in that crypto coin, he gets money because, you know, the fees go to him. Had this huge dinner where the top 200 crypto buyers were at the dinner. We don't know who was at the dinner because he said it was a private event, even though the seal of the United States was on the podium when he spoke. But, you know, all of this money coming in from foreigners, like this Chinese guy who had been indicted in the United States, and now the indictment's been dropped, and he was one of the largest contributors to this crypto fund. So I get that you can say that there's corruption on both sides, but how can you compare them? How can you say one's, you know, they're the same thing? It seems like, you know, nickels on the $100 bills in the comparison between the two.

Well, I guess I could compare it and say one's better at it than the other. They're both bad.

Yeah, they're both bad. You know, this is amazing. Mike Johnston. Johnston, you know, the speaker of the House was asked about this. You know, they said to him, like, you really obsessed about the Biden corruption. Like, you had impeachment hearings. You had endless hearings. And now you seem pretty cool about, you know, you don't doing anything about the stuff going on with Trump. Like, how can you do that? And he said, the difference is Biden hit it, and Trump is in the open. Okay, it's true. If there was corruption from Biden, he hit it, and Trump is in the open. But that can't excuse it. That makes it worse. That makes everybody in the world look at the United States and think, okay, it's just a big banana republic. You want to get something from the government, you got to pay a bribe to the President. I mean, that is. I don't. I don't think you can say that's the way it's always been. I don't think it's ever been like That I don't think the reputation of the United States was you had to buy off the president in order to do a deal with the United States.

I don't know, Larry, I, I, I hear what you're saying. I get it. It's, but it's like when I start listening to some of these, you know, thought process. For example, on John Kennedy, right? So he was killed, supposedly. So Lyndon Johnson's wife owned all kinds of stock in this military, and he, she, they wanted the, you know, the, the Vietnam War to keep continuing. And, you know, it seems like a pattern of, you know, get rid of the deep state type thing, exactly what Trump is talking about. And so you throw all that in together and you go, geez, as a matter of fact, I just used that statement the other day to a guy and I said, you know, there was a famous person that said, not ask, you know, don't ask what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country. And it was about, you know, a guy I was talking to as far as a school issue. I said, don't ask what the school can do for you. Ask what the school or what you can do for the school. And he goes, yeah, I remember that. And that didn't work out well for that guy, did it? I said, no, and I, and I do, Larry, I understand, I do understand what, exactly what you're saying. No, you're right. Right's right and wrong's wrong. Right. You and I would both agree on that, I'm sure. But it's just, it's just like everything you look at, the rioting, for example, if you want a peaceful riot, if you want a peaceful protest, it's called right. That's okay with me. But why is a police car burning or why is this happening? That's not peaceful. Right. And you know, like I said, which is, which is worse, which is what's the degree? I mean, I agree with you, Larry. President should not gain from being in office. I'm not going to disagree with you at all.

Okay, but my question is, like, how much does he have to gain before you say, okay, this is too much?

Yeah, I don't have that. I don't know. I have no idea.

I mean, you know, $3 billion is a lot of money, right?

Yes, it is.

You and I are never going to see $3 billion.

No, no.

So, so, I mean, this is just the part that I just don't get. I mean, I would think that there's some point at which it's like,

yeah, I don't know what the answer is to that. Like, I said, larry, I know people have gotten rich. I ask that all the time. When's enough money enough? You know, when my mother passed away, we went to this lawyer and, you know, his comment to my dad was, you know, you've made a lot of money over your life. And my dad said, we've. We've spent a lot of money, too.

And

he said there was an old lady that had come in there one time and said about that same exact thing. She said, but you can never have enough money, right? And I don't know if you're like me or I'm like you this way. If I have enough money that I'm comfortable, I'm okay. I don't need to go out and strive for another million dollars or anything like that. I'm comfortable. But some people are not. And I don't know why they're wired like that. I. I don't understand it. You know, even. Even the take something is something like the, you know, the drug cartel. You've made millions of dollars. Why do you have to continue to make millions and millions of dollars on something that's bad? You know, and is it because they can't get out of it? Is it because it's. It's, you know, too good to be true? I don't know. But, you know, like you said, when's enough, enough? When's too much, too much? You know, I don't have that answer. For me, it's, you know, being comfortable within yourself and your family and going, you know, through that. But again, maybe I'm a little different or maybe, you know, I think some of the most important things in life have nothing to do with money. You know, it has to do with your health. You know, if. It's been said many times, if you're healthy, you have everything, and, you know, family is extremely important to me. So if my family's healthy, I got it all, you know.

Yeah, I get that, and I agree with that, you know, and I don't mean to, you know, whitewash other presidents. You know, we went. I remember, you know, during Clinton, people were really furious at the idea that it seemed like Bill Clinton had sold a pardon to Mark Rich. And, you know, there were people who gave money to the campaign and got to sleep in the Lincoln Bedroom. And I don't think there were that charges against Barack Obama, certainly not against Jimmy Carter, and I don't really think against Reagan either. Nixon, I don't think, you know, Made any money while he was president from anything. He certainly took a lot for his campaign stuff. That's what got him in trouble with Watergate. Lbj, you know, was a deeply corrupt guy, but he was not openly corrupt. You know, you're right about his wife having, you know, access to special radio licenses. And there was, you know, it was extraordinary. And there's an amazing story about, you know, just the incredible luck or not luck for Lyndon Johnson, because literally the week before John F. Kennedy was assassinated, Kennedy had told Johnson he was not going to be on the ticket, number one. Number two, Life magazine was about to do a major expose about corruption as it related to lbj. And number three, the Senate was about to do a bunch of hearings related to his wife's corruption issues as well. So he was being attacked on all three fronts, and he was about to lose his vice presidency. And then, bam. John F. Kennedy is killed and he becomes president and Life magazine decides not to publish their article, and the Senate decides not to launch their investigation. Now, that's the idea. Either the luckiest man in the world or there's something deeply troubling about that. I get that. I get there's a lot of reason to be skeptical about it, but I just feel like we gotta find a way to tell the difference between these corruptions and the grossest form that we have ever seen. No president has ever earned $3 billion in six months in office. Nobody. That's just never happened. Right. The equivalent has just never happened. And, you know, now still the case, though. Okay, this dead horse is dead. I'm going to move beyond this. You know, today's the 14th of June. It's the President's birthday. We're having a military parade in Washington.

Right.

Tanks rolling down the streets. Can be millions of dollars in street damage caused by these tanks as they've rolled down the streets to celebrate the president's birthday. You know, from my perspective, it all looks a little bit North Korean or, you know, Russian. Like, when have we ever had a military parade coincidentally celebrating the president's birthday? Doesn't this kind of strike you as weird?

It does that, yeah. I'm not a big birthday person either, so it doesn't. Doesn't do anything for me. I. I also. I thought this was the 250th birthday of the armed forces or something like that.

Yeah.

Okay. So I guess it's luck. Luck in that point where we're doing, you know, we're. We're supposed to be celebrating the armed forces, but it's Just lucky that, you know, Trump's birthday is also today. Right? I guess.

Right. But we wouldn't necessarily celebrate the arms for forces by having a military parade in Washington with tanks rolling across the streets. Right. I mean, yeah. Okay, so, so we agree, we don't like that either, right?

No.

The military stuff though, has really always been weird to me about people and Trump. So you saw, we, we haven't spoken since we had the West Point speech. You saw the West Point speech?

I did not. Who, Trump gave a speech there.

Yeah. So every president goes to the graduation of West Point, Right?

Right.

Every president stands and shakes the hands of the West Point cadets.

Yes, I've seen that. Okay. Yeah, I did not listen to a speech though.

Yeah, so, so Donald Trump said he had to, he had, he couldn't stay to shake the hands of the cadets. He had an important meeting he had to go to, so he left. And then video shows that where he went was golfing. He left to go golfing. He couldn't shake the hands of the cadets, so he could go golfing. Now that's gotta be weird to you.

Yeah, yeah, I, I, I don't know. I didn't see any of that, Larry. I can't, I, I honestly can't comment on it with, other than what you're just telling me. Listen, I don't like golf either. You know, my dad always used to say golf doesn't make sense. You have the ball in your hand, you put it on the ground, then they hit it and then you chase it, you know, again. But it does, it does get down to a little bit of my, you know, blue collar background where, you know, we worked, obviously, and farmed and it was, you know, it was a life that you didn't have a lot of things that you do now. You know, I always say, you know, I don't go golfing. I don't, I don't set at the bars and drink. I don't do any of those kinds of things. But I think that's what we need more of, you know, but I know some people love to golf and I, and I get it and that's their pleasure. So I don't understand the whole concept of, you know, you know, golfing as far as, you know, having fun. I, I actually worked on a golf course up at Penn State and I actually, I've only ever golfed one time and that was with Senator Yaw and a bunch of other guys.

Oh, Gene. Yeah. Was my lawyer before he was the senator.

Right. And Gene and I, and There was a few other guys, and I seen guys throw golf clubs farther than the ball. You know, they hit the ball and the golf club sailed farther than the ball did. And I'm like, what is wrong with you guys? This is supposed to be relaxing and you're supposed to enjoy it, you know, and all that. And they were, you know, frustrated and furious and all that stuff. So I don't, I don't understand the whole concept of, of, you know, golf and being relaxed and, and I listen, I have a mother in law who, you know, it's, it's, you know, Easter dinner and if the golf course is open, they're not coming to the Easter dinner. They're going golfing.

Yeah, my parents, my parents golfed. My dad golfed. My dad forced me to get up at six in the morning to go golfing with him, which means that I don't like golfing, so I don't golf. Right, yeah, but the point, but, but, you know, again, my point is like, you know, yeah, there are people who like to golf and a lot of people who don't. A lot of people can't afford it. Right, right. The budget, the budget had marked $300 million to cover the cost of Donald Trump's golfing as president. Right. Which seems like a kind of waste of money in a context where you're cutting budgets for, you know, health care and research and things like that.

Absolutely, absolutely. You know, I agree with you and, and I, and Larry. I know what the human spirit is like, and I've seen it, you know, in not so much. And I've seen it in schools. You know, we will do things. For example, we brought in a motivational speaker one time at Mentorsville, and he spoke at school with the kids and then he spoke at night with the parents. $28,000. And, you know, I don't know, I don't want to sound conceited, but listen, he was telling, you know, stories of him coaching and different things. I have great stories. I have great. I could have done that. And I would have done it for 14. I would have done it for a lot less. You know what I mean? And I can motivate kids. I mean, there's, there's no question that, you know, you're a wrestling coach and you have success. You're motivating those kids to do well, hopefully, you know, and even as, like you and, you know, as a, as a classroom teacher, I was a classroom teacher and I motivated kids to, you know, push themselves to do, you know, different things. Now Some I couldn't reach and some I didn't reach. But a lot of them, you know, we reached and we motivated. So. But point is, yeah, when you get into this kind of big business and you look at the. The budgets of these schools at, you know, several million dollars, and you go, well, we just spent 28 million on a motivational speaker. That's only. That was less than 1% of the budget. Okay, but it was still $28,000. Right?

Yeah.

And I agree with you. You know, there's times to cut. Golf is, for me, is not a priority, obviously, but I don't even want to blame it on golf. I would say if you're a president and you're going to be there for four years, you work your ass off for four years, and that's that. You don't get any pleasure time. You don't get a vacation. You don't get to go here. That's my. But that's my work ethic.

Okay, That's a little extreme, but, yeah, I'd be willing to say, yeah, you get as much vacation as the average American, which means, you know, maybe a week or maybe two weeks. Right. But, you know, this guy spent more than 25% of his time on the golf course. Literally 25% of his time. There's these websites that just track his time on the golf course. So, yeah, he's not living up to that standard. But I'm really interested in. You have kids who serve and, you know, more honor to you and your kids for that. And so that was part of the point about the West Point speech, which not only did he leave to go golfing, he also. Much of the speech. Speech was about trophy wives for some bizarre reason. But the thing that's really interesting to me about the relationship to the military is we in the late stages of the Afghan war, worked with a lot of Afghanis, and they helped us in that war. And they were, in exchange, promised that they could come to the United States. And they came to the United States legally under that agreement. And, you know, thousands of Afghanis were here pursuant to that agreement in exchange for the work they did for us in the military. The President has now sent all of them back to Afghanistan at the same time that he's bringing white South Africans in, because white South Africans are a vulnerable minority, according to the President. The Afrikaners. You know, when you see him send back people who've helped the military like that, what do people in the military think about something like that? I mean, how likely is it you're going to get support from people in the future if this is what you do when you make a deal with them here.

I've never discussed that particular part with my sons or whatever. I don't know that. Again, I didn't know that. I will say that they. They like serving better. When Trump was in office, you know, four years ago, really haven't talked to him too much about this in the last six months. They've been extremely busy. Ben has been in the Philippines quite a bit. He's taken over new command out in Washington state, so he's been pretty busy. Justin is also, you know, he flies the Blackhawks, and he's been doing a lot of training. You know, he's a test pilot now. So he's. Florida. He's down in Florida, Jacksonville, I believe, the 40s at they, they. They change, you know, different things and so on. But he. Yeah, so anyhow, he's in charge of. He's. He's not. He's not a mechanic, but he's in charge of the, you know, mechanic side of it. He oversees that. And then he test. He. He's the test pilot for when they, you know, do do things. So all the extra trainings he's had for that. But anyhow, I haven't really talked to him, but they, they were happy with, you know, Trump and they felt better now, you know, I don't want to say things that aren't nice to people, but, you know, know, he had a lot of. Ben had a few people in his command that were transgender, and he said, you know, dad, it's not that I have a problem with what they want, but they always were causing drama, and it was just always something, you know, I don't like this. Somebody said this to me. Somebody said that to me. So I think he's enjoying. I think he likes it better with. With what's going on now as far as less. Less cause less drama. I don't want to say let's get people out of there, but I want to say let's cause less drama in everything because we don't have to worry about every little thing that we say. But I haven't really talked to them. They've been, like I said, they've been really busy, so maybe I'll be able to discuss that with them here.

Yeah, interesting. I mean, the Afghani story and then, you know, going back to the point about what's going on in L. A, you know, it's certainly true that there are incidents in LA where people have become violent. But the overwhelming protest in LA have been peaceful and almost celebratory, if you see the kind of dancing and stuff that's going on there. But the striking thing, which not everybody in the world would know this, the striking thing about it is that the law says, explicitly says, that the National Guard works for the governor. And you can only call the President, can only call a National Guard into service with the governor's consent. And I'm sure your kids know about the Posse Comitatus rule, which basically says the United States military can't be used for domestic policing. So here we have a president who is in the face of the governor saying, we don't need the National Guard. The police are completely able to take care of this. Please don't, don't call the National Guard. He calls the National Guard into force to escalate tension here. And then military people, like dump a whole bunch of military people in and force them to sleep on the ground because there's no place for them to actually sleep again, escalating it to create this impression that, you know, that everything's falling apart. Now the interesting thing about that, I think, is to compare what's going on in LA to what happened on January 6, right, when he hesitated, wouldn't. It was only finally the Defense Department that called the National Guard to try to suppress that. And then all of the people involved in that were pardoned. But one very clearly was a violent insurrection that he was unwilling to step in and do anything directly about. And the other is from the police to the mayor to the governor, something where they don't want the federal government there. And he's escalating it for, you know, what purpose. But those lines are to me, very important. You don't, you don't claim power, the law doesn't give you, you don't exercise power, the law doesn't give you, as president. And yet that's what he's doing. So I think that troubles me and I wonder whether that troubles you.

Yeah, I mean, I understand exactly where you're coming from, Larry, I do. And then I also have listened to the conservative side and people are just, I think they're tired of a lot of the things that are going on. So one of the things, for example, mask. If you're gonna protest peacefully, why do you need a mask? Well, you don't wanna be identified, right? So those are the things that us. I don't know, I wanna say everyday blue collar people are looking at, and we've had enough of that. We See a police car burning, we've had enough of that. And what do you do, you know, if you have the ability to stop what's going on? And I listened to Donald Trump say the other day, he said, I, I sat there and I watched Minnesota burn and all the problems. And he said, if I'm in that situation again, I'm not going to hesitate to send the military in. And I agree with him to a degree, like he said, but I also agree with you, like, why escalate it? But at the same time, isn't there some type of, I don't know, I don't want to say rule, but isn't there some kind of common sense that kicks in and says, listen, if we keep letting this happen, how many millions, like, you know, you're talking about wasting millions of dollars on golf. How many millions of dollars is going to be wasted on the things that we're trying to protect? Police cars? I mean, you know, whether you like it or not, when there's damage done at one city, we kind of all pay for it, right? I mean, you know, and, you know, where are the values at? You know, where are these, the values that I think, you know, that we talked last time about, you know, you sound like our dad's about the hippies. And I don't, I don't think it's. I think it's the values that, you know, protest. Go ahead, make your voice heard, but don't burn a police car. Don't throw, you know, stuff at the police officers. Because in my mind, it's the disrespect of all the things that have happened. Whether you're a police officer or whatever, you have to respect. There has to be this line of respect all the way down. And the police have to do what's right, but you also have to respect them. So it's one of those things where I see everything breaking down, the family's broken down, the respect of police officers, the respect of authority. And even in California, a lot of people are just looking at California and shaking their head and going, what is going on out there? When you see the homeless and then you see a documentary on all the money that was funneled to the homeless and nothing was done and how they're, you know, all the things that are happening on the street, you know, they're defecating in the middle of the street and they're doing all these things. And I know those are the, you know, bad sides, and that's the side that's trying to show everything Bad. And I. But again, you know, Larry, I agree with you. Why escalate anything? Why do any of that stuff? But at the same time, I think people have had enough, and I think they support Donald Trump and what he's doing, you know, because they just simply have had enough of the things that are, you know, happening.

Well, I mean, we agree, of course, that if you're going to have protests, you shouldn't be engaging in violence. And so to the extent people are engaging in violence, it needs to be addressed. And the. My point, though, is the way the law says it should be addressed is it's supposed to be addressed locally. And if the local authorities can't control it, then they have the right to call on the federal government to come in and help. But the federal government doesn't have the right to step in and override the local authority just because it's a great photo op. And let's talk about the masks.

Yeah.

I don't know why protesters need to have masks, but the masks that really trouble me are the ICE agents who show up masked without any identification, that they are police officers who grab people off the street. And then the first struggle people always have is, who are you? And of course, you know, if you're grabbed off the street, what are you just going to yield to? Who's grabbing you off the street if they have a mask on and they're, like, dressed in normal clothes? No, but it's like, like unbelievable. I don't think there's ever been a point in American history we have unmarked police officers in masks grabbing people off the street. And then, you know, for a while they were saying, well, we have a right to just send you to El Salvador to a torture prison, because we believe, we haven't proven, but we believe you're a, you're a member of a gang. I mean, that. That's, you know, as. I think that's more troubling because that's the government. Like, if private people were a mask, you might say, you shouldn't wear a mask. But we're not paying them. We didn't elect them. They don't work for us. They're just private people. But, you know, when the government has a mask and sweeps people off the street and tears mothers away from their children and leaves the children on the street, that seems like order of magnitude worse. Right?

I agree with you. I agree. It would be nice if you walk. You could just walk up and do that. And I. But we live in this violent society as well. And you know what what do you do? I mean, I, I can totally agree with you, but then you also have judges that are hiding these people and you have other things that are happening and you're going, how do you win? I guess and well, we do.

The one, the one judge that was charged by the federal government said to be hiding people. That's a fight, that's a, that's not clear what's happening there, you know, so maybe, maybe not. But it's one we don't have like judges. It's one that's been charged in that context.

But let me ask you this from, you're the legal expert, right? Are these sanctuary cities that we have, are they actually legal? Is it legal to have a city that says, oh, we're going to bring in people that are illegal in the country and that we're going to help them and we're going to protect them and so on, even though they broke the very first law? I mean, is it really legal to have a sanctuary city in which you can do these things?

Well, you know, no, it's not legal to break federal law for a city to break federal law. But I don't know, these sanctuary cities are saying we're going to break federal law for you as much as they say, you know, we're going to provide the protection that you need to make sure you're not swept off on the street by guys in masks illegally. And so, you know, and you know, you say it's because they're fearful, that's why they're wearing masks. But here in, you know, right outside of Cambridge, this 24 year old woman who was a grad student and had written an op ed that the President didn't like swept off of the street there. This woman was not a danger to anybody. She was just somebody whose views that they didn't like that they picked up and then deported or tried to deport. They stopped her in Louisiana before she was kicked out of the country. Not on the basis of fear, but just because that's what they think they can get away with right now. So sanctuary cities can't violate federal law. So if somebody is going to be arrested under federal law, you've got to, you've got to give them an opportunity to be arrested. But what's happening in the courtrooms is really complicated because you've got a court proceeding going on and the question is whether the person should be deported or not and you sweep in and you grab them before that's resolved. You know, that seems a little bit unfair to the process.

I agree. I, again, you know, life isn't fair. But, but why are we. Why do we focus so much on certain things now? Okay, so I, my, I don't, I don't have it exactly written down, but I know President Obama, I think he deported 5.8 million people. Right. And I think Clinton deported 10 million, I believe were the facts they were saying, how many of those people got due process? And why is it so important now because Trump's in charge that we have due process? And how many of those people didn't have due process? Right. And I think that's what. I know that's what it is. Everybody, you know, sometimes I see it in myself and I see it in you, Larry. You know, it's like, I think I made a comment on one of the things I wrote to you. It's like everybody looks at it and says, well, yeah, what about that person, though? You know, I think I used a comment that when I was married, my wife would go to school and I thought she was dressed a little provocative, and she would say to me, if you think this is bad, you should see what so and so wears. Right. So we always, you know, divert it to the other guy. So, you know, why, why, why now is, you know, the whole thing with deporting people becoming such an issue. I didn't hear anybody complaining when, you know, President Obama was doing it or President Clinton was doing it. Look, these people here illegally, get them out.

Well, no, that's right, then. But, but the difference is that when they deported them, they gave them the process that the law said they were due.

Did they?

Yes, they did. Absolutely did.

So how could you deport 10 million people and give them process for 10 million people?

I don't know the total. I don't know the total numbers, but whatever the numbers are, sure. I mean, this is just why it takes a long time. It's difficult. Like, you've got to. But you've got to process them through a proceeding. And the proceeding involves a relatively independent. The immigration judge is not an independent judge from Article 3, but a relatively independent judge that makes an evaluation of whether there's basis to believe this person can be deported or not, and they make a judgment. And that judgment then is whether the person goes or doesn't. But those deportations were under due process. And the whole complaint about Trump is not because it's Trump. It. It's because the way he's doing it is denying them this. Right. And he's doing that because his people say, well, we need to do this to be able to do it more quickly. Well, that's not an excuse for violating due process, you know, I mean, you could, you could, like, do a lot of things more quickly if you didn't have trials, if you just presume people were guilty. But we don't do that in a free society. We say you've gotta prove it. The government's gotta prove it. If it's gonna pick you up and kick you out, send you to a torture prison in El Salvador, they've at least got a prove to an independent judge that you've got some, They've got some legitimate basis for believing they have a right to do that.

And I, I hope that they were. I don't know. But I also know that what's happening today with like this Ms. 13 and killing people, I don't think, you know, President Clinton or even, even maybe Obama did, but I don't think Clinton had that type of, of criminal aspect of the people that he was deporting. I don't know. Right.

But I mean, the criminal, you know, the drug, Drug cartels have been violent for a long, long time. I mean, this is not something that's

new, and I understand that. But why is this year, the. This year, I should say, we've really focused on the MS.13 in the last, let's say, two years, you know, because they've been, they've been brought to the limelight. Is it because the news is now reporting on them? Didn't they report on before? I mean, you know, it just seems like, you know, like you said, the violence was there a long time, but why has it escalated to the point in this country? You know, and, you know, I look back, Larry, and I say, look, if this country is so bad and all this crap that everybody's bitching about, why are people still coming here? Right. Why do they want to be here so badly? What's that?

It's worse where they are.

Yeah, well, that's exactly right. Yeah, we've. We've got a great place. And, you know, I heard an interesting fact the other day. They said if you make $38,000, your annual income, you are in the top 1% of the world. I thought, wow, 38,000. I mean, you and I, I'm sure you make more than that. I make more than that. And to think that I am a 1%er of the world, right?

Of the world. But we're not 1 percenters of America.

No, we're not. And I get that. But my point, Larry, is Some people forget that. How damn lucky we are to live in this country and how fortunate we are, you know, And I actually said that to Breakfast Guy the other day, and he said, I've been to the third world countries. Somebody gave some kids some pretzels and they thought that was the, you know, it was the end of the world. It was just unbelievable. You gave them these pretzels and they were so thankful. And, you know, we just don't appreciate what we have, so.

Yeah, I agree with that. I love this country, too, and I think we should be proud of this country, too. But that's the reason I'm so upset about what's happening right now, right? Because the things that are important to the tradition of our country, that we have presidents who are not, you know, basically running their own corrupt mafia regime and we have due process of law, and, you know, that you're not going to be swept off the street by people wearing masks. Those things have changed. That's not our country anymore.

I do understand that. I think it is our country. But I think that there's definitely a definite. People are pointing this out and riding on that and harming, you know, really going after it. But at the same time, you know, you know, I'm conservative, right? And I guess I would consider you a liberal.

Go ahead, call me names.

What do you consider yourself? Would you be a liberal Democrat? Whatever. I'm a Republican conservative. And yet I see both sides are wrong, but I see that. I feel that the one side is instigating, you know, like, Whoa, whoa, what are we instigating?

Are we instigating the corruption?

Well, not. Not instigating the corruption, but I think there's more of a. Of a won't let it go type thing, or, or. I don't know how to say it exactly, but, like. Like you will defend the riots.

I didn't defend riots. No, No, I didn't defend riots.

Well, you'll say it's mostly peaceful, right?

It's mostly peaceful. And there's some riots. I wouldn't even say riots. There's some violence. And I just saw videos of, like, police officers bashing their own window in la, Right, So to emphasize the violence. Okay, so there's some violence, but it's not. They're not general riots, and it's certainly not as bad as January 6th, and most of it is peaceful protest. So that's what I think is true. That was the seventh episode of my conversation with Ben Hepburn. Or actually, after I sent this to production, I was informed that it was almost the seventh episode or the seventh conversation we've had, because midway, not midway through, two thirds of the way through, right in the middle of the conversation about la, Ben's mic went off. Don't know exactly what happened, but we lost from that point in the conversation on. So production has decided where to cut the conversation. And I regret that we can't get all the way to the end because it was an interesting conversation all the way to the end. But we can pick up what we didn't get to cover in the next episode, which in our standard eight episodes in a season, will be the. The final episode of this season. And I'm going to tee this up a little differently. I'm going to ask Ben to make a pitch for how we should think about where we are in this administration. I'm going to make a pitch. You can probably guess my view about where we should think about we are in this administration, and we're going to see if we can understand why we disagree. It's a lot to hope for in one episode, but it's maybe the most important thing to get from these conversations. Indeed, the thing I think about all the time, as we've done this now for many months, is how rare it is that these conversations happen. It's a thing we should do. We should do it not just on a podcast, but we should find ways to do it everywhere in our life. Because if we don't find a way around how we're being steered by these media that are just trying to maximize our engagement with it, if we don't find a way around that, then we're trapped by these AIs driving us to engage. And if we're trapped by them, we're trapped in a cycle that will just destroy the capacity for us to govern ourselves in a democracy. So that's a lot of highfalutin thought to end. The seventh episode will use it to inspire us, I hope, in the eighth episode, but stay tuned for that. I'm disappearing from the country for two weeks, so it won't be until sometime in July that we can have this final episode, final conversation. But I look forward to it. I don't mean final. I mean, there could be points during the rest of the Trump administration where it makes sense to try to revisit some of the things we've been talking about. Don't want to never say never. But that's where we will be in this episode. And the next season will return to the struggle, the fight against Super PACs, which there is lots of progress, lots of hopefulness, lots of real reason to continue this fight and we're gonna have lots of conversations with people involved in the fight and the resolution they've made to join the fight and to help make it successful. So stay tuned for that too. These podcasts are produced by the great Josh Elstrow of Elstro Productions. They are sponsored by Equal Citizens. You can find us on the web at Equal Citizens Us anotherway where you can find all the episodes, all the seasons, everything there is to to hear. Please share this with your friends. We don't spend money promoting these podcasts but they're important to the message that we're trying to push at Equal Citizens, which is not necessarily the message that every similar group might be pushing but certainly the message that I think is true. So that's all we have. Thanks so much for listening. Look forward to the final episode of this season. This is Larry Lessig. Be safe.