Democracy Illustrated: A New Graphic Novel About Democracy

This podcast is part of the Democracy group.

Welcome to Another Way, the podcast produced by Equal Citizens, a nonpartisan pro democracy organization founded by Lawrence Lessig. This is Adam Icken, the organization's campaigns manager. Before we begin, as always, I hope that you consider supporting this podcast on Patreon. To become a supporter, go to patreon.com/citizens that's P A T R E o-n.com/citizens okay, now to the episode. Americans are largely in agreement that our politics are broken, that big money has too much influence, and that our representative democracy isn't all that representative. You can thank the tremendous work of reformers across the country for making that message so salient. But we still have a long way to go to educate more people about how we descended into this democratic crisis, why it matters so much, and more importantly, that the solutions exist to get us out of this mess. It should go without saying that expanding our coalition to include more informed and energized Americans has never been more critical, especially as we prepare for potentially one of the biggest legislative fights in decades over HR1, the For the People act, starting in 2021. Right now, our movement utilizes a variety of mediums to disseminate our radio, television, social media, television, TED Talks, shout out to Larry Lessig on that one. And, well, podcasts like this one. And of course, books are published every year on the topic of American democracy, explaining its shortcomings and potential reforms. But as effective as these modes of communication are, it's worth asking which constituencies are currently being left out? In other words, who is unlikely to be reached through our current methods of information sharing? My guest today, Daniel Newman, asked himself this question and decided to write a graphic novel about democracy reform to reach new audiences. The book's called how to Fix Our Broken Democracy, and it's incredibly well written, beautifully illustrated, and doesn't dumb anything down. I'm really excited to discuss Daniel's vision for this book and why he thinks it was so important to create. But before we continue, I. I want to give you a little bit more information about Daniel. He's a national expert on government accountability and money in politics, and is the president and co founder of maplite, an excellent nonpartisan organization that promotes transparency and political reform. Daniel has appeared in hundreds of media outlets and was named one of Fast Company's 100 Most Creative People in Business. He also led a ballot measure campaign establishing public funding of elections in Berkeley, California. There's so much more to discuss, but with that, I hope you enjoy the interview.

Hey, Daniel. How's it going?

Great.

Adam, I'm so happy to have you on the podcast today to talk about your new book, how to Fix Our Broken Democracy. It's going to be a really great conversation, and let's jump right to it. So this new book tells the story of American democracy, but with a little bit of a twist. It's a graphic novel. And so before we get into the substance, can you explain why you chose to write a graphic novel to illustrate the problems and solutions in our democracy?

There are so many publications about democracy that read like white papers, so important, talking about the problem, but they have a limited audience. And I thought that democracy is such a central issue for the country, and there are so many people who would. Who would want to know more about how voting rights happen and how to make them better and getting big money out of politics, and that there was a real opportunity to reach a much broader audience. And that's why I wrote a book that's a comic.

Right. And I really see two benefits to the graphic novel format, and I'm interested to hear your take on this. The first, as you said, is accessibility. I mean, I could very well see, you know, it's a really beautiful book. The illustrations are excellent, which we can talk about. I could see someone going in a bookstore, being interested, picking it up. Someone who's never really thought about democracy issues and reading it because it's. It's just accessible. You know, there aren't too many words on the page. Again, as I said, there are beautiful images. And so it's definitely an accessibility thing. Someone who, you know, might not normally be interested in this topic, jumping right into it. But also, you know, the graphics accompanying the text illustrate the problems and solutions in a way that prose largely can't. You know, I'm thinking about these sections on gerrymandering or winner take all elections or even money in politics and voting rights. I mean, the, you know, it's almost like having infographics accompanying, you know, the white paper part of a book. You know, in other words, it's. It's a way to illustrate the problem in a real, accessible way. So I'm wondering if you could, you know, do you agree with that? Is there anything else that I'm missing? There? Was that part of the thought process behind the graphic novel?

Yes, absolutely. I mean, Adam, we all live in a visual world, and so to see things like in pictures and words, it's just. It fits all of our natural way of taking in information, and it makes it possible to just to get A sense of just how these systems work. You know, democracy is an abstract topic. And so to make the pictures that make it come alive, it just adds so much to it.

And I also have to say that you tell a lot of stories about, again, both the problems and the solutions. And you tell the stories of winning campaigns, which I want to dig into later in this episode. But it is meaningful to be reading the story of, say, Katie Fahey in Michigan, which our listeners know a lot about, because we've interviewed her before and we've referenced the story of voters, not politicians, many, many times. But it is something to kind of read that story and see Katie Fahey in a picture form. You know, it gives a little bit more of a sense of reality to the story that this is not just something that happened far away, but, you know, this is a real person.

It does, it makes it engaging, it makes it fun, and it really puts you in the, in the, it puts you in the story much more. I mean, I conducted meticulous research for this book. More than 100 interviews, extensive textual work. And, and so the pictures like in the Voters Not Politicians story are of the actual people that did this, Katie and her colleagues. And it really, it's a way of putting you in the picture and highlighting the parts of the story that are most relevant to learning how to fix our democracy.

And so how did you actually find someone to partner with? I mean, I know that you didn't do the drawings, it was George o'. Connor. And so I'm wondering, how did that collaboration come together? And moreover, how did you decide what graphics to put in with the text? So talk a little bit about that process because this is something I know nothing about. I know nothing about the production of graphic novels and especially one that is democracy related.

So the artist for this, George o', Connor, a terrific artist, he's produced many best selling graphic novels. And we are brought together by the publisher of First Second Books, which is an imprint of Macmillan Publishing. And the team at First Second is just expert in producing this kind of books and really gave me a lot of guidance in how to write for something that there would be pictures for. And it was a very collaborative process in terms of me writing the script for the chapters and then George the artist would create sketches and we'd go back and forth with feedback. It's like, well, actually, in terms of illustrating ranked choice voting, this is pretty much right, but it would be better if you move this explanation over here and put in a picture of this. And I would often give George, suggestions for ideas. But he's so creative, he's put in the book as you. Takes you all over the place. Like in one, you have me as the narrator, as a magician, flipping over cards and showing the different cities and states that have public funding and how those models work. And then in the next chapter, there's a time machine car that takes you back to 1888, when the US adopted ballots that didn't require people to indicate just one political party or another. So as a reader, you're constantly surprised. And that comes from George o' Connor's terrific work in making the art really pop out and sing.

Yeah, And I have to say, you know, I don't envy that task. I mean, it does require a real mastery of imagination in some respects to illustrate something like this, because, I mean, you and I know very well that these issues of democracy can be pretty. Not dull, but they're pretty arcane. And so coming up with really vivid imagery is. Is something a real. A real valuable asset that this book gives us. You know, it provides the democracy movement, I have to say, because, you know, again, these. When I've given talks or when others give talks, you know, sometimes you can see the audience. There are points where their eyes may glaze over and say, you know, well, what are we really talking about here? But with the images, and especially, you know, vivid color images, it really give a sense of excitement to the narrative. And so on that note, Daniel, can you give a quick synopsis of the plot? And I put plot somewhat in quotations here, because it really is a mixture of a plot, as in, like in the graphic novel. But also it's like, you know, it would. The narrative is essentially just like you would see reading a book on democracy, whether, you know, we'll talk more about those. But, you know, it follows very much along the lines of the. The multiple different works that have come out recently in the past five years

detailing a similar story, I think. Sure. And I think that to your point about the democracy movement, I think that our movement, our democracy movement has too few entry points, and the barrier to entry is very high. If you want to get involved in it and just learn what's going on, learn what the issues are, learn what the solutions are, learn where you contribute. It's just way too complicated. And so I see this book, among other things, as an entry point that it's written for adults. Even though it's a comic book, it's not dumbed down at all. It's very meticulously researched. Even your listeners steeped in democracy issues, will learn a lot from this book. But it's a way that we can really expand our movement. And that's, of course, been a movement goal for a long time. I also say, like, as a graphic novel. Graphic novel, I learned, is kind of a term of art. And even though it's called graphic novel, it's a nonfiction book. So some people call it a graphic book, although myself and others in the field call it a graphic novel. But just to make clear, it is all nonfiction. Factual, yes. Now, in terms of the plot, how the book unfolds. So I start with the story of Paul Perry, who was a congressional candidate in Pennsylvania. And he's bright, idealistic, well connected, great community leader, and he decides to run for Congress and he runs smack into the wall of fundraising and he gets outraised by his opponents, who are lobbyists, who are millionaires, and he drops out of the congressional race. And then in the very next chapter, we compare that to the story of Teresa Mosqueda, who ran for city council in Seattle. And she was a non traditional candidate, didn't have big money backing, but she won due to the democracy voucher system in Seattle. And I think that, in a nutshell, is so much of this book is like, let's outline the problem. Let's do it in a real way to see how it affects people and see what solutions are possible.

Right. And I really want to drill down on that point about kind of how to weigh articulating the problem as well as showing the solution. But before we get there, one of the things that you talk about a lot in the book is this concept of the wealth hoarders, or, you know, I might call them the anti democracy movement or those who fight for voter suppression or to rig the rules. And it's so critical to identify that the problems in our democracy didn't arise out of nowhere. In other words, that it was deliberate, the rigging of the rules. And so I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about that part of your book and why you think it's so important to contextualize the problems in our democracy as not something that arose, you know, 10 years ago, but something that goes back much further in history.

So for the last 50 years, there's been an organized movement to disable democracy in the US and in the book, I call this the Wealth Hoarders. It tells the story of this network of a small number of billionaire families organized primarily by the Koch brothers, but certainly far exceeding them, that is seeking out deliberately to disable government. Now this is a story that was brilliantly told in Nancy Maclean's book Democracy in Chains and also in Jane Mayer's seminal book Dark Money. And the thing is that this network that is fighting against voting rights is fighting for gerrymanding, is fighting for unlimited secret money in politics. And they keep their aim secret. It's a real key part of their strategy. And this story really needs to get out there so people can better understand why are we having these democracy problems and challenges. The essence of it is that the wealth hoarders, this small group of billionaires, they believe in the societies, everyone's out for themselves and, and they've already got theirs. And so why should they pay taxes to support anyone else? And they realize that any democratically functioning society is going to tax people with wealth in order to provide benefits to the other 99% of society. And so the only way that they can keep their billions and not be taxed and not have to be concerned about anyone else is to disable democracy so that actually the mass of the people don't have the power. It's only the moneyed interests that have the power.

And this effort to undermine democracy, at least the modern effort to undermine democracy, as you said, it really did take decades. And it wasn't some sort of, you know, they flipped a switch overnight, but it required a really long term, well funded effort across many different aspects of American society. I mean, you talk about, you know, the funding in schools and in the media and in political organizations and think tanks and the list goes on and on and on, but all of these things to develop really a network, an infrastructure to fight, to rig the rules. And I think that's such an important story to tell. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more about the two books that you give a shout out to, as you already mentioned, Dark Money and Democracy and Chains. And can you, can you articulate to our listeners, for those of you who read it or who have read it, but don't quite know the context around these books. Can you talk about why these two really remarkable pieces of journalism and historical work respectively were so critical to the democracy movement?

So Jane Mayer's book Dark Money detailed for the first time in depth the history of the Koch brothers political network and its effect on, on politics, especially over the last 15 years, including during the Obama era. And it really, it goes back to the Kochs having an extreme libertarianism. In fact, David Koch was the libertarian vice president for party, vice president for candidate running against Ronald Reagan back in the day, claiming that Ronald Reagan was too liberal, if you can believe that. And their platform all along has been essentially disabling government's ability to do almost anything. Jane Mayer exposed that in this, as you, in this remarkable work of journalism, and traced it forward to this politics that you now hear about as polarization being the problem. Well, actually, it's a specific segment of the Republican Party that is refusing to compromise. But, but that's not because, like rank and file, Republicans change over time so much. It's really because of the influence of campaign contributions and grassroots organizing by this Koch network, by the wealth hoarders networks that has moved the Republican Party to serve the wealth hoarder interests. And then you complement that with Nancy Maclean's book Democracy and Change coming out several years ago. She did this remarkable historical research uncovering that disabling democracy is central to the Koch strategy. So in the book Dark Money, you have the narrative of what's happened with the Koch network and the Republican Party and how things have changed. But then the Nancy MacLean work goes really into the why and how disabling democracy and really being the opposite of everyone that all of us in the democracy movement are fighting for. It really shows why democracy, disabling democracy is central and how that's playing out today.

And it is kind of remarkable, right? You know this, I know this. When you, you go out in public or you have a one on one conversation and you try and articulate this, you know, this concept of that there was a movement, a cabal of people who are fighting to rig the rules of the system for private gain. You sound a little bit like a conspiracy. The right. DANIEL and so the idea that there were these two books that came out that really articulated and showed definitively that it's not conspiracy, but you can well document this effort that really was a remarkable and important moment for our movement because it gave credibility to what we had long been arguing. But people had a harder time of believing because it's all true. But it really does almost sound like a vast conspiracy when it's not. It's really just a very well funded, long term effort to delegitimize government, to rig the rules, and to create a system that most Americans now recognize as one that doesn't actually treat every vote equal and that doesn't treat Americans and citizens equally.

It is, it is, it is a long term, well funded, well thought out and well executed plan. And it's for those of us in the democracy movement, I think that like surfacing this story is Critical to understand what we're fighting against and who are the interests that we're fighting against. I think that one of the contributions of this book Unrigged is really to put that story Forward in a 50 page comics chapter. And because those two books are great. Dark Money and Democracy in Chains. And I hope that all your listeners and everyone in the country read those books. But in addition, you can get the summary of the story in 50 comics book pages. And because it's so important to our movement, I've actually put it up on my website, unrigbook.com as a free sample chapter from the book so that we can spread the story as widely as possible.

Yeah, and I think that's ultimately such a critical point there is that you and I know the story because we've read those books and they're remarkable. But both of them are very long and they're dense, especially Dark Money by Jay Mayer. I mean, again, I think Dark Money is probably the most important book written on American democracy in decades. But at the same time, you know, it's a long book. And so being able to synthesize it in something that people will read as you do in your book is really critical. But I want to turn a little bit to, you know, get at this tension, right, that there is a need to tell the story about the problem, about the history, about the long, you know, long term, deliberate, well funded effort to undermine American democracy. And then moreover, to go into depth about explaining how gerrymandering, you know, produces an undemocratic system, how voter suppression works, how money and politics works. Right. Articulating the problem is so critical to everything that we do, but at the same time, you don't want to leave people with a sense of hopelessness. And so you really do have to foreground solutions. And so what you do in unrig is, you know, you integrate the discussion of solutions not into the last 10 pages of the book as an afterthought, as kind of a lot of books have done previously, especially pre2018, pre2017. But you really try and integrate the solutions into the discussion of the problem. And so I'm wondering if you can kind of tease out a bit about the importance about articulating the problem, but not running the risk of dwelling too much on the problem before getting to the solution, you know, to give people a sense that they can actually do something about this.

I do think, Adam, it is so important to show people that these problems not only have solutions, but they're already being solved. And that there are people who are solving them. There's a sense sometimes, especially in the news media, that these problems are so complex or they're so intractable. But you and I know that that's actually not true. And there's these solutions that are tested and proven across the country. I think one of the reasons that I wrote this as a comic book as opposed to say, op ed in the newspaper, for example, news stories, by the nature of the news media only focus on problems. And there's not really an avenue to put in the inspiring stories of the people who were solving these problems. And so as you note, for each of the description of how the problem works, I paired it right away with what the specific solutions are. And then some of the stories of activists who brought this about. I mean, you mentioned earlier interviewing Katie Fahey, a great example of someone who just decided to get involved and make something happen. I mean, in the book we have the stories of the badass grandmas in North Dakota who decided that they were going to stop secret money in North Dakota, and they did. And Samantha Parsons, who as an 18 year old college student at George Mason University got together with other college students and started a campaign to expose the influence of the Koch Network on the curriculum. And one of the real themes of this book is that you can do it too. And these people are, they were motivated and they joined together with other people and they made something happen.

And I think, you know, towards that end, you know, you do place a significant effort in the prose of the book into getting individuals to act. In other words, really trying to show people exactly what you just said, that, you know, someone like Katie Fahey is just, you know, is just an American, just like you or me or anybody else. And she just stood up and that we all have the power to stand up and fight for democracy. Now, not everyone is going to lead a successful movement to end gerrymandering in Michigan like Katie did. But everyone has a role to play. And that the first step is really just to stand up and to join a group or to start a group or to start by calling a member, you know, your representative or writing a letter to the editor. But you do really put a focus there throughout the book of like, this is something that you, the reader, you the reader who might have picked this book up in a bookstore, having no previous knowledge of democracy, but you're inspired by what you're reading, you can make a difference. And so I'm wondering, can you tease out a bit? And I want to get into some of the stories, I want to talk about Berkeley and your role with public financing there. But before we get to that point, I'm wondering if you could just kind of tease out a bit about, you know, the. How you tried to encourage the reader to join this movement.

There's two main ways to do this. Is one, I give many specific instructions for what does it actually mean to get started, like joining a group and how to choose an issue to focus on and what questions you can ask of your representatives that are running for office. And I make that a central theme. And again, it's not something that surfaces much in the media that most people read is like specific instructions about how do you go about and change things in a really practical way. And the second thing is that I tell the story of, in particular, the Seattle Campaign for Democracy vouchers and what that really took from being started with just 10 people to passing something that's now a national example. And that process took years, and there were a lot of ups and downs, and it goes through, like the fundraiser they have in a bar and raised $5,000 and some of the decisions they made in terms of what issues to focus on and what coalitions and the mistakes they made as well as. And I really wanted to demystify this so people can say, like, oh, well, I understand how this works, about putting together a group and a campaign and so that they can see themselves in it.

Right. I mean, because the, you know, for most people, jumping into a campaign, let alone leading it, is kind of jumping into the abyss. I mean, if you have no experience, it's very intimidating. And I think one of the kind of the core messages of this, you know, the multiple sections where you try and encourage people to join is to say you don't have to do it alone. Right. That the first step is really just finding at least one other person. You know, my friend Francis Moore Lepe would call it a democracy buddy, someone that you can jump in with, and that makes that whole process easier, that if you find one person who believes the same thing, that our democracy is broken, that our government is not representative, and that there are solutions to that problem that can ensure citizen equality, that then makes the whole process of, you know, then finding other people easier or, you know, researching what legislation to advocate for, et cetera, et cetera. And I think that's a real core message of your book, and it's one that I think, you know, you have learned from your own experience that, you know, other democracy activists have learned from their experiences. I think that's a really core part of organizing, is obviously banding with other people. And so, you know, Daniel, one of the things that I really appreciated about Unrig is that, you know, you, you don't just focus on, say, money and politics, that you really take a holistic view of both the problems in our democracy as well as the solutions. And so, you know, Daniel, I think of you, you run maplite, which we'll talk about. But you know, you, you spend a lot of your time on money and politics, you know, trying to investigate dark money and the influence of money in politics. But you don't keep this as just a campaign finance book about the influence of big money in politics. Okay. There are billionaires who are spending big on politics, and that's the real central problem. Right. You really go into everything. I mean, you go so far, you talk about voting rights, gerrymandering, but also as I mentioned at the top, winner

take all elections and the electoral college.

And that's somewhat of a departure from what I would think of, you know, Daniel Newman as the head of maplite. And so I'm wondering, can you talk a little bit about why you took such a holistic approach to what aspects

of democracy were important to include MapLite. So for the last 15 years, we focused on money and politics and now also focusing on stopping online political deception on social media. So those are really specific, important areas to fix our democracy. But the problems of democracy are large and they are many faceted and they're going to take so many of us people and so many groups and doing so many different things. And so like, as an organizational leader@maplite, I guide us to focus in contributing to specific areas of the work. But my interest has always been in how do we make a country that actually works for people and trying to create an entry point so that light bulb moment can go on for people about seeing how do these underlying rules of the country and rules of our politics and rules of our democracy generate all so many problems that we see. And so it's always been an interest of mine to get out this broader message. And, and this graphic novel is really, it's a great medium to do that and bring more people into the field. Yeah.

And I think that the way I would articulate it, right. Is that the assaults on our democracy have been so broad based. Right. This, the wealth hoarders, the anti democracy movement, again, whatever you want to call it, have been so deliberate in focusing on all of these different aspects to rig the rules that our response as a democracy Movement really does need to be equally broad based. And I think that's kind of what you articulate, that you can choose one aspect to focus on in your local campaign or state campaign, but it's part of a larger democracy movement that is addressing each of these aspects of democracy where citizens are not treated equally. And I think that's a core message of the book, and it's one that really does come through, and rightfully so, because it's just such a critical message that if we're, if we are going to win a democracy that functions as a democracy should, we can't just focus on any single aspect, any single inequality, because the problems are so vast. And so now I want to get into one of the stories that you tell, because it's one of the stories that you were a part of, and that's the movement for public financing in Berkeley, California, which is where you're from. It's where you're recording today. You know, on this podcast before, we've talked a lot about public financing. We focused on Seattle, the voucher system there where everyone gets four $25 vouchers to give to any eligible politician. I've spoken with an episode which seems like years ago with Nick Neihardt, the former president of the Every Voice center, where we talked about the rise of public financing systems, mostly these, you know, block sum systems in the late 90s, early 2000s in Connecticut, in Arizona, in Maine and elsewhere. But we haven't really spoken a lot or really at all about Berkeley. But since you were so integral in the story of Berkeley, and in the end you won, take us through that story. What was your role and, you know, give us a sense of how you got it done.

So back in that time period you were just referring to, in 2003, I was running a computer software company here in the San Francisco Bay area. And I was in, inspired by what was happening in the states of Maine and Arizona, passing public funding of elections, I thought we should do this for my city in Berkeley, where I live, And I met a campaign partner, Sam Ferguson, my democracy buddy, as you put it. And we just started putting together a group of people who also wanted to do this. And I had never run a campaign before and neither had Sam. And we built up a coalition of people and groups that wanted this, and we lobbied the Berkeley City council. And in 2004, we got this great measure on the ballot for public funding of campaigns. And I was so excited that I would have finally done something with my life that was significant in passing this law, and you know what, Adam? It didn't pass in 2004. And I was devastated. And I thought that if I just threw myself into this hard enough, which I did, that it would pass. But. But it really took a shift in my perspective that it generated to more humility about politics and realized that we are all working in this world, that we can't control all the outcomes. Whenever you want to go and change your city or your country, you can do so much in terms of pushing on the levers of change, but ultimately part of it is outside of your control. And then I took my learnings from that experience and working on public funding in California and meeting many people across the country who are doing the same thing. That a big missing piece in our movement at that time was that money and politics as a solution was people didn't really understand that because they didn't understand how bad money's influence on politics was. And so I started Maplite in 2005 with other people that I met from that Berkeley campaign with a mission to elevate the problems of money in politics, make them part of the national conversation, make them a top national issue. And over the last 15 years, we have contributed to making money in politics and political corruption a top political issue. And then I had the opportunity to go three years ago, then in 2016, and actually get this measure on the ballot again. A modernized version, a 6 to 1 public funding match, building a coalition and actually passing this measure. And now it is part of the Berkeley city constitution. Many candidates have run for office and won without special interest money. And I'm proud to have closed that loop and brought change to my city.

So how many organizations did you have to get involved in the movement in Berkeley? I mean, what kind of coalition are we talking about that was required to get this passed? I mean, can you give us a little bit of a sense of what it took? Eventually it passed on the ballot, correct?

It did. And Berkeley is a city of about 100,000 people. This core steering committee, well, we had only three or four people that lobbied the council for years to eventually make this happen. And then once it was on the ballot, we had 15 people who were the core steering committee that ran the campaign day to day. And we had maybe about 100 volunteers that made phone calls, went door to door. So it's like a pretty reasonable number of people. Right. For significant change. Right.

And so can you give us a sense about, okay, so you're going door to door for something like public financing? Because this is kind of what your book tries to tackle that it's often very hard to explain money in politics, politics in 30 seconds or 60 seconds, and why, you know, a voter should care about it as opposed to something that's much more immediate, say, you know, a livable wage or clean air and clean water. So can you, you know, when you go door to door for something like public financing, what, what do you say? You're knocking on a door. What do you say? What's the. They open the door, you have 15 seconds to catch their attention. You know, how do you frame the issue in a way that immediately both captures their attention and then gets them to want to support the measure?

So it's really connecting the large problem nationally to how it affects them in their community. So people are very aware of the idea of getting big money out of politics. And that's something that is true today, that was not true when I started this work 15 years ago. So combining getting big money out of politics with the fact that even in Berkeley, did you know that a typical city council race might cost $50,000 just to run for city council? And people go, wow, I didn't know that. I knew this was a problem in Washington, D.C. i kind of thought it was a problem in our state capitol of Sacramento. But they had no idea that these money issues also are playing effect in their community. So it's tying that larger issue to specifically how it affects them locally. Right.

And the measure won.

It did. It won with nearly a two thirds vote. So a really strong campaign showing the urge that citizens have for change of this kind.

And of course, we see this replicated, you know, across the country when these democracy reforms are on the ballot, you know, overwhelmingly, they seem to pass. And I think that does get to something. As you noted, that has changed in America, which is that the, the concept of citizen inequality is significantly more present in the minds of Americans. They may not articulate it or know the history like you outline in Unrig, but. But it's very clear that the kind of the winds have shifted. And so the. But the other part of the Berkeley story, which I think is critical, is it's not just that the campaign ends and you have public financing, but the system has actually changed what's happening on the ground in Berkeley. Can you talk a little bit about the kind of preliminary research? I mean, there hasn't been that many cycles in which it's been used, but there is some preliminary data in terms of how things have changed.

You do you have a shift of candidates getting elected that Wouldn't have been able to run before. You have previously, 300 households in Berkeley provided half of all the campaign money in Berkeley. So a tiny slice, less than 1% of Berkeley households were funding most of Berkeley campaigns. And that's really shifted. So now it's the money coming from the public, from the citizens, that's really driving conversation. And I think that in Berkeley particularly, and in many cities at the local level, the focus is really on the distorting effects are towards the wealthy neighborhoods and the interest of. And because in any city where there's diversity of income, it's the wealthier neighborhoods that provide most of the campaign funding. And so the political candidates are just always oriented to the needs and interest of that group. And that's something we're seeing changing in Berkeley and of course, other cities that have public funding systems as well.

Yeah, and I think that's always an encouraging thing to see, is that, you know, when you pass these reforms, you want to see progress. You want to see that they're. That they're working as intended. And of course, you know, as we've talked about in this podcast before, you know, there are things that make public financing harder to implement or work properly. I mean, the role of independent expenditures and other ways to work around the system and flood it with. With, you know, money from extremely wealthy individuals is always a perplexity, perplexing problem for reformers. But the more success stories that we can throw out into the public narrative and show people that there's a real solution to this problem, that we don't have to just sit and watch the TV and yell about it and then resign ourselves to. This is just, you know, the system that we have, you know, that that's critical here, you know, and that takes me to somewhat of a less positive note, but I'm really interested to hear what you have to say. You know, the COVID 19 crisis has. Has been both, you know, I think a boon for certain aspects of democracy or foreign. And maybe boon is the wrong word. But, you know, the highlighting the inequalities and the importance of something like voting at home, voting by mail, no excuse, absentee voting, you know, and kind of really highlighting that part of our democracy, I think has been, you know, good. Of course, it's in the context of the reason we're focusing on that is because people are being disenfranchised and it's an absolute mess. We've already seen that primaries across the country are pretty much election meltdowns. But so most of our focus is Going to the voting rights aspect and not even all of the voting rights aspect. People still aren't focusing on registration and other things that we normally would be working on. But money in politics has largely gone out of the equation for reformers because quite frankly, again, as I said, we're focusing on to ensure that we can even have free and fair elections in November. And so the question of like public financing in cities, states nationally is just less salient because people are more concerned that their vote won't be counted or they will have to go to the polls contract Covid, you know, and that's the only way to exercise their civic duty.

So.

But at the same time, Daniel, money in politics has clearly never been more important. I mean, you see it in the stimulus package that have passed, the CARES act, the HEROES Act. It's not as if lobbying has stopped. It's not as if big money and politics has stopped with the virus spread. In fact, it's only gotten more important in the sense that you look at these massive omnibus bills, and we know this, you and I know this, that when you have massive omnibus bills, it's the lobbyists and the corporations and the people who can have a seat at the table, who can purchase their way to seat the table. They're the ones who are getting carve outs, they're the ones who are getting the bulk of the benefit. And so in some respects, we face this tension of, you know, we have to focus on voting rights and money in politics is kind of out of the news cycle. But at the same time, this is a perfect case study in how money in politics distorts legislation, even during one of the most critical moments where government has to act for the public good. So how do you kind of navigate in this situation? And are you discouraged? Are you hopeful that these are going to be case studies we can use in the future? Where is your mind right now?

So I think all these issues, Adams, are obviously interconnected and voting rights and stopping money's corrosive influence on politics. And they're all part of this same issue about power, and specifically the power to control government. I think that in the democracy movement, we often talk about the specific pieces of it, gerrymandering, money in politics, voting rights. And what they all have in common is about control and power in government. If you look at the. What the wealth hoarders are seeking to do over the last 15 years is disable government in important ways, make government unable to function, and make government only responsive to the wealthy. And all the tactics of voter Suppression and secret unlimited money are all part of that. And so when you look at the pandemic and the failed government, preparation for that pandemic and response to that pandemic, it is directly result of this 50 year campaign to disable government from doing much of any. And this disabling of democracy and disabling of government are inextricably linked. They're really about the same thing. And so what I see is witnessing people now witnessing this failure of government, it just brings to sharp relief what do we need to make government actually work for people? What do we need for the people to control government instead of the powerful?

So I think that's exactly right, Daniel, that it really is about power. And I think framing it, you know, framing the crisis and the kind of the inadequate response to it as, you know, the logical consequence of, you know, this movement against democracy and against government is the critical way to frame that and to kind of maybe unify the voting rights and money and politics aspect. You know, I also have to say that, you know, one of the reasons why, you know, the response in the primaries, I think, have been such a disaster is because we don't adequately fund election administration that we don't want to spend money on, you know, the dull and dry process of, you know, ensuring that we have enough people on the ground to administer absentee balloting and to process the request forms and to, to really fund a robust civil service that will, you know, ensure that we can have a democracy that functions. And so this is all kind of part of the same narrative that you, you articulate so, so beautifully. And, you know, of course, we could talk about the, you know, the USPS and the funding troubles there and all the other aspects of this that come together. And so, you know, another thing is in terms of narrative, right, the, you know, you spend so much time at Maplite really trying to articulate these stories in a way that makes connections to individual issues, right, that it is true that Americans, you know, feel a sense of anger when it comes to citizen inequality, just in a concept in and of itself. But you really do have to tie democracy to other issues, whether it be racial justice, climate justice, economic inequality, et cetera, et cetera. And so I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about, you know, how you go about connecting the dots in terms of something like, you know, right now as we're recording this, there really is tremendous momentum for an overhaul of the criminal justice system and, you know, to ensure finally real racial justice in our country. And so I'M wondering if you could talk a little bit about the ways you make connections between issues and democracy,

like looking at the issues of police violence. I mean, these are so aided by the democracy structures of our country that allow police unions to contribute to political candidates and make candidates reliant on union contributions. So district attorneys who decide whether to bring charges for police officers accused of misconduct, those district attorneys often are receiving money from police officer unions. There isn't public funding systems for them to rely on so they can serve the public. And instead they're dependent on police officers funding. And then they have to decide, are they going to charge these police officers? Obviously, a conflict of interest takes them away from the public interest, contributes to police violence. In another example, some cities have citizen review boards, police commissions that citizens will review use of force by police officers, and cities that have those or don't have those. And whether those commissions have power or doesn't is determined by the mayors of city council. And the mayors and city council are typically dependent on police union money to get elected. So these broken structures of democracy are key contributors to the police violence and lack of racial justice that we see. Right.

And I think always making those connections is so critical. And again, it's something that in a graphic novel like yours, you really can tease those out in an accessible way. And so my last question to you, Daniel, is just what is your vision for this book? I mean, what would the ideal situation be? I mean, is this something that you want distributed in high school civics classes? Is this something. Is this a text that college professors could assign? Is this, is this a book that you just want to see anybody and everybody read? I mean, is there a vision that you have for this book?

I think all of those. Adam, I would love to see this book read widely, specifically for democracy practitioners and activists. I'd like them to take parts of this book and use it to help explain their work, to bring in new audiences. And most of all, I hope that this brings thousands and thousands of new activists into our field, people who see the problems with our broken country. And there are so many, and that there are so many people now in the pandemic sitting at home, wanting to do something to get involved, and that this book provides an entry point. I explain in the book how you can get involved and the steps to start. I direct people to the book's website, unriggedbook.com where I have lists of groups that individuals can get involved with at the state level, at the local level, and it's really designed to help bridge that gap for people. It's not just information about the problem. It shows what needs to be done to fix it. It puts you in the picture, and it connects you to the resources that you can actually get involved.

So I think I have to ask actually one more question. You've been at this for 15 years now, given what you've seen over the last 15 years and the current trajectory we're on, both in terms of just the, you know, all the negatives, in terms of, you know, the fact that we're even talking about having to have a free and fair election in November and all the money that's come into our politics in the last decade plus. But also given the rise of, you know, the narrative that money in politics is a problem, that voter suppression is, you know, something that happens across the country, that gerrymandering is now something that most people know what it is, or at least have a va have heard about it before, and that there are movements in every state to try and unrig the system. How are you feeling? How are you feeling that we're in a better place than we were 15 years ago to finally win the reforms that need to be won?

I'm feeling energized, Adam. I think there is no final win in improving our democracy and fixing it. I have never seen more people more aware of the injustices in our country, of the problems in our country, of the inadequacies of control over government in our country. The many grassroots campaigns, the state campaigns, the local campaigns that you mentioned that are forming and winning. These are done so often without. They're not being driven by national groups. There are people at the grassroots that want to get involved in these campaigns are spreading and winning. So I think in some sense, like, you know, as I'm speaking to you, like we're in shelter in place, and we're stuck in our homes and we are constrained. And the problems of our government have never been more real and physical and threatening than they are right now. And I think that creates and will continue to create a compulsion for change, that we will see the movement for change expand. And this is happening at the same time that the forces against democracy, the forces for control of our government only by the wealthy, have only gained in power. So the battle lines are clear, the injustices are clear, and the. The 99% that we the people, has never been more motivated.

And I have to conclude with a line that I'm somewhat paraphrasing from the very last page of your book, which is that the other side has the best people that money can buy, but we have the best people money can't buy. And I think that's the real takeaway here, which is that there is so much potential, you know, in the democracy movement, and that our goal now needs to just be to continue to expand and to continue to grow future leaders that will continue to push the ball forward, you know, in American democracy. So any any final words, Daniel? Where can people get your book?

Any bookstore has the book. It's how to Fix Our Broken Democracy. You can also find it@unrigbook.com well, thanks

so much, Daniel, for an excellent conversation. I encourage our readers to check this book out, and we'll talk to you soon.

Thank you, Adam.

This has been another episode of Another Way. See you next time.

Sa.