S7E1: Common Ground?

This is Larry Lessig. This is a new season of the podcast. Another way. It's a different. It's a weird. Well, not weird. It's a. It's a different season. This season is going to include a conversation between a friend of mine from high school and me about the incoming administration. It's incoming because Today is just January 18, 2025, and in two days we will have a new president. The conversation is with friend from high school, Ben Hepburn. I went to high school in Loyalsoc, Pennsylvania, which is next to Williamsport, Pennsylvania, which is the Kentucky part of Pennsylvania, meaning a deeply conservative part of Pennsylvania. And as I've described elsewhere and often I grew up as a very conservative young Republican, teenage Republican, chairman of the Teenage Republicans of Pennsylvania. And Ben and I knew each other in high school, but not really terribly well because Ben was super cool and I was a band nerd. But anyway, Ben and I have. Have had more contact, much more contact since high school. I went back probably about eight years ago to do something at the high school and he and other high school friends and I began to reconnect then. And just before the election, I decided I wanted to go back to the. To my hometown. First time I'd been back there in eight years and first time I had ever gone to a high school reunion. But I wanted to go to this reunion because I wanted to meet people I knew supported Donald Trump. Not everybody did, but I think probably most of them did. And it was clear Ben did. And Ben and I had a conversation at that reunion that then led to a three hour conversation that was recorded. I thought it would be a podcast, but three hours is way too long for a podcast. And so that sits in the archive and maybe someday it will be released. But Ben and I were talking earnestly to try to understand how each of us could have such a radically different view about who should be President of the United States. So I think it's important to continue conversations like this. And so I asked Ben if he would participate in this by periodically I'm too busy to agree to like, do something every week or every other day or something like that. So periodically we would pick topics and have a conversation. And that's what this is the first example of. And so we're going to jump into the conversation and it's going to be disciplined. So we're not going on for three hours. It will last for less than an hour. And then at the end I will close it up and talk about what I hope we might talk about next. So I hope you enjoy this. I hope you send feedback when you hear it. Feedback about things you think I'm being obtuse about things you think that we ought to be talking about. Things that might be important to include in the conversation. Whatever you think you can find on the Equal Citizens US website where that could be found, I mean where you can send the feedback and any other ideas you want to send. So here's Ben Heern, sort of a hero in the world that we came from or I came from and, and me talking about the first topic for this season which will be immigration and invading Greenland. Stay tuned. Okay, so welcome Ben Hepburn, who I've known since high school. I didn't really know you well in high school because you were in the cool crowd of sports figures, football and wrestling and I was in the band. So we only met on the football field, but never together like we played in the halftime and you guys the rest of the time. But I cherish our friendship since we've known, we've seen each other a couple times since. And I traveled back before the election because I genuinely just wanted to talk to you on our reunion. Something I'd never come to before, but talk to you about where we were and how we got here. And that started a conversation we had for three hours. We had a conversation that's recorded and maybe the will eventually link to that someplace. And I, and after the election I was keen that we continue the conversation. So people who are on this, listening to this podcast know about me, but let's, let's introduce you a little bit more. So since high school, since your fame as a famed athlete at Loyalstock Township High School, where have you been? What have you done?

I attended Penn State University. I wrestled there for him and I've gotten basically 2 degrees. I got a dairy science degree and I got a teaching degree in education, both in agricultural and general science. So from there I, I went to our rivals, Mentorsville High School which is just across the creek and I started my teaching career there which lasted 36 years. And, and I stayed at home as far as coaching wise. I coached the Lancers for 40 years in wrestling. We had a state title and eight state champs and 30 place winners and been fairly successful. As you remember, wrestling wasn't the, the, the sport at Luck, you know, the winner, it was more basketball. So we're basketball school. So anyhow we had some, you know, I think good success. Of course we had our ups and downs because that's what teams do. We're, you know, we're we cycle through that. So. And this fall I got inducted into the Pennsylvania Coaches hall of Fame, which is kind of a very, you know, unique thing or proud thing for me and, and a few other wrestling wise honors that way as my education. Like I said, I, I brought the program at Montoursville from 28 kids to. We had 140 when I left. And so that was, that was a real successful thing when, when other ag programs in the county had dropped out, we were, we were continuing doing well. And then along the way I had five children and I bought this farm out here. It's not my family farm. It's close, but it's not. So we have a 127 acres here now and, and we're a livestock crop. Grain, oats, corn basically and hay farm. And we have cattle, sheep, hogs and goats. You know, it's, it's. You would probably describe it as a hobby farm, but we do make a little bit of money on it, but not a lot. Obviously it wasn't my living, but it's supplemented and I really bought it to raise kids. So. And I ended up raising my five kids pretty much. I was a single parent. My wife left and went back home into Florida. So we were here pretty much all the time and, and the kids turned out really well, really proud of them. We got one in the middle, two in the military right now that are active duty. Ben is a captain out in Washington state. Justin flies Blackhawks down in Florida. My middle son Nick works for Stryker Medical and my daughter who's having twins today, she's an Air Force medic and she's an emergency room nurse, an RN and. And then my youngest is also. Was also in the military in the Guard, but he's a CEO over at the correction over at Allenwood in the maximum security prison. So.

Wow. So, you know, my uncle was a lawyer in Madison, Wisconsin and at a certain stage he decided he didn't like raising his kids in kind of, you know, suburbs of Madison. So he bought a farm outside of, outside of Madison and he moved the whole family out to the farm and it's become quite a huge cattle like farm now. I mean it's like that went down through the family and they continue to, to farm it. But he, but it was exactly that ethic. You needed to raise kids in a context where they needed to know how to work and what work was.

Yeah, absolutely. And a real quick story, I don't know if I share this with you or not, but there was a lady that Found out that I had bought this farm. She was an older lady. I always kind of get a little emotional when I. I talk about her, but she said, I was an orphan and I lived on that farm when I was a little girl. And I said, oh, that's. That's neat. And I said, she goes, I always remember the farm. It raised great watermelon and great potatoes. And I said, oh, well, I said, I didn't buy it to raise. To, you know, potatoes and watermelon. I said, I bought it to raise kids. And this great big smile across her face. Oh, she said, ben, it'll raise them just fine. So always, always really get emotional about her when I. When I think about those, you know, think about that. But anyhow, different story. But that's really why I bought, you know, the farm to raise kids. And of course, my heart's always been agricultural, and so that's where we're at.

So you're. But your family has a farm too, right?

Correct. My dad had a dairy farm. We dairied there. And in the long run, it just is so much work. And my dad then, you know, became 62. He retired, basically Social Security, but he still. We still beef farm and crop farm, and now we just crop farm over there. So. Yeah, so we still have that. I'm part owner in that, but not sure exactly what we're gonna end up doing with that, but that's where we're at.

Okay, so that's a good introduction. I mean, though, you know, we both are teachers. We're different kinds of teachers. We teach in different environments. But when we had the conversation before the election, which really I expected to be about 45 minutes long and literally is three hours long, that conversation, I felt like, you know, we were trying to understand. And we were trying to understand because I came to it thinking, I don't know how anybody could possibly support the man who, in, I guess, three days is going to be President of the United States again. And I could see from the very first time that I saw you at that reunion that you had the opposite view. It's not that you were in love with Donald Trump, but you clearly thought you were not going to support Kamala Harris. Now, I don't care to talk about Kamala Harris for lots of reasons, but. But we're launching into this new Trump administration, and what I'm hoping is that we can know, just touch base about issues that either confirm or conflict with the prejudices or the biases that we start with. So, as I said in our conversation, before the election. You know, my anxiety about the president is that he says one thing and means something else. So my anxiety is he says he's trying to do stuff for ordinary Americans, but in fact, he's not. He's trying to do stuff for his billionaire buddies. And so, you know, the one question will be, you know, does the evidence bear that out over time? But the first topic that I hope we could like, touch on with that is the whole immigration issue. Now, I just wondered, let's start with you, you know, you connecting about immigration because I think you have a subtle, not crude, and certainly not racist view about the immigration problem. But how would you characterize, like, what concerns you about the immigration issue?

Well, I think something has to be done about it. Obviously, the big question is what? And that's the hard question. You know, you have all these people that have come to our country and they've broken the law, so do we need to punish them somehow? Do we. I certainly don't want them in jail. That's. I don't want that. I know that some of the people, as, you know, you look at it, some of them are very, you know, intelligent and hard working. And we certainly do, you know, do you make exceptions for that? Do you say, oh, we're gonna, we want to keep those? But I think in general, I think something certainly has to be done. I don't think that we should be a dumping ground for the bad ones. The ones that are, you know, rob, robbing, looting, there's some murdering going on that have, you know, bad records. I don't know what the solution is for that. What do we do with them? But I think something has to be done about those. And I think there has to be a system in which at least, at the very least, Larry, I would like to have them identified, you know, whether it's, you know, identification cards, whatever, but get them in the system so we know who they are, what's going on, you know, what, what they're capable of, what they're not capable of, you know, what, what's their health history, what, what are some of the things that would be important to the community where you say, all right, this, this, you know, person has, I don't know, maybe some kind of disease that, you know, we need to keep in check, or maybe this person is very intelligent and we need to, you know, get this person in our roles.

Okay, so, yeah, so that's, that's identifying a certain class of. Well, it's interesting. I hadn't really thought about it, like that. So the first part about that, that's different is it's, it's important just to identify who they are and what they, what they bring. And what they bring could be good, and what they bring could be bad. And so that's fine. And to the extent they bring stuff that's good, we ought to figure out how we all could benefit from that. No doubt. And to the extent they bring stuff that's bad, maybe that's certainly the class of people who should be removed from the country. I think the statistics, and I'm going to put notes in these conversations afterwards so they can either confirm or prove that I'm wrong. I think the statistics show that the actual crime rate from immigrants is lower than the crime rate from native or Americans, you know, people who have not immigrated recently. But whether that's true or not, you can just distinguish between the ones that have a criminal past and those that aren't. But the president's argument was that we needed to remove them from the country. And, you know, conversation about mass deportation. There's now a description that he's going to begin on day one, literally on the inauguration day in Chicago, gathering up people and deporting them. Is that an important part of, like, what you think about when you think about the immigration problem?

I don't really think that that's something that I put a big emphasis on. Again, I think that we should be able to identify. And I think that certainly the deportation or, I mean, I don't. I haven't heard a specific plan as to what you're going to do with them or how you're going to do this. Are you going to, you know, I don't know, put them on a bus and take them back to Mexico. You're taking them back to where they, their original, you know, country was. I, I haven't heard that plan. I don't know what their plan is. I do know that it's going to cost more money and it's going to, you know, it's another one of those things where I'm looking at, do we throw more money at a bad situation? You know, we, you and I make that decision every day at home. Do I fix this washer dryer? Do I buy a new one? Right? And you, you have to analyze each thing and you have to say, okay, well, a new washer is 500 bucks, and to repair, this one's a hundred, but it is 15 years old. And you go through all the, you know, the chain of reaction, so to speak, and, and then you decide what you're going to do. Right. And I, I don't, I haven't heard a specific plan as to the deportion, you know, deporting these people. How, how are we going to do that? You know, is it, you know, I, I don't know. And, and, and I'm not, I'm not on, I mean, I still realize they're people and there, there's that human factor, you know, and I, but I also know they, they broke the law. And you as a, as a lawyer especially, you know, you want to enforce the law because without law, what do you have? Right? And sometimes we talk about, you know, the justice of things, the law, you know, what's the right thing to do, you know, and I, and I listened to that one clip that you had sent me, you know, and, and you're exactly right. You know, when, when a kid or a person has something good to offer. Oh, we'll make some exceptions. And I didn't do that. You know, when I had, when I coached wrestling, if you, I set out a kid that was a two time state champ and he ended up being a three time all American, but he missed some practices so he didn't get to wrestle in the next match. And all my, everybody was, you know, upset. I said, it doesn't matter whether it's the right thing to do. This is what we're doing. And I had to go in front of the principal, I had to go in front of the, I had to go in front of the ad, I had to go in front of the principal. This is, this is the way I'm running the program. I said, this is, this is the values we need to teach this young man. You just can't do whatever you want. So you look at it like that. And that's certainly some of the conflict that I have. You know, where I say, you broke the law, you shouldn't be here, so you should go. But at the same time I realize you're humans. And how is this all going to work?

Yeah, I mean, what's, what was interesting in the campaign was that one of the biggest targets that they called out, J.D. vance in particular, were the Haitian refugees in Springfield. Those people hadn't broken the law. Those people were brought in under a provision that gave them emergency status in Springfield and that's where they were. So in the category of people we're thinking about, that shouldn't be in the category. And then there's the other group of what we call children of people who are here illegally Right. So you're born and you turn out. Your parents broke the law. And so then the question is, what do you do? Or what do we have to do to them? And so there are many years where especially Reagan started this policy where the conversation was, how do we just give them a path to pay off whatever wrong they've done to become American citizens? Because they're obviously here because they love America and they want to, they want to do well, they want to, you know, do well for their family. And I take it what you're saying, you have no strong reason to oppose something like that.

No, I, I don't have, you know, I'm not sitting here to say if, you know, get out, we're done. You know, I'm not like that. And, and I even done that. Like I said, I'll, I'll keep comprise comparing to wrestling, you know, when a kid made a mistake, you know, lots of coaches, lots of the team members, get them off the team. I said, Unfortunately, I have 51% of the vote, and my vote is he needs us more than we need him. And they would look at me and they would say, okay, coach, I guess I understand that we need to help him develop into the person that we want him to be as opposed to getting rid of him. And, you know, so, yeah, I agree with you 100% on that. I don't know what the answer is. And when you touch on those things, Larry. I know. I think that the biggest fault is lack of education and lack of facts, you know, because people will talk about this and they have no idea, you know, what they're talking about. And like me, I refrain from talking about a lot of stuff because I don't have all the facts, you know, I just don't know. Right. And that's, that's the way I am. I don't know, to criticize, to talk about, you know, it's. See, somehow you have to be humble enough to understand and listen first, you know, and, and be able to decipher what are the facts. Like, I've never heard that the people in Springfield were there on a special visa or what. I've never heard that. But then again, I've never said, let's, let's get rid of them. I've never said that. You know, so obviously there's, you know, lots of things that are spun in a negative way and sometimes in a positive way that are too positive, you know, and you're like, this just doesn't make sense to me. Right. And that's the way I'm coming from.

So a big part of the America first campaign, the kind of Steve Bannon, you know, that kind of crazy man's campaign, which, you know, he claims MAGA is behind, is pushing the idea that we ought to remove these people because the jobs they have are jobs that Americans should have and that they're taking Americans jobs wrongly. And that's the reason why we need to deport so that we have more opportunities for legally present Americans. Is that an important part to you?

I think it is to a degree. But then again, I'm also not, I don't know that I really understand the whole unemployment. Are you unemployed because you can't find a job or are you unemployed because you don't want a job? Right. And I think that's some of the lines that I look at. I mean, I, I've talked to individuals that are great people and they say, listen, Ben, I can make more money staying at home than I can working. And then I know other people that I say, don't you think you should, you know, file for some type of disability? Nope, I'm too proud. I want to work, you know, So I think somewhere in between, like my mom would always say, somewhere in between, there's the truth, you know, and certainly, you know, from, you know, history that there's a lot of farm workers, migrant workers, because we don't need 20 people on this farm all year round. We only need them for a month. So the immigration workers have worked out pretty well for that because back in the, you know, back in the 30s and 40s, kids work. Today, not so much. You know, we, we have made it too soft, too, too easy for the kids. Right. And so now we don't have that child labor, you know, and I don't address it as a bad thing, but you know, if you're 16 or 17, you're not going to get a good job. You need to go out and labor in those fields, you know, during the summer months and, and make some money and move on. So I don't, I'm not saying that, you know, they're taking our, our jobs from people that want to work. Obviously, it's, it's a no brainer. They are taking jobs. Right, but are they in the system? Are they, you know, putting money back into the system or are they just taking money out of the system? Is a big question for me. Right.

Yeah. And again, I'll put this in the notes, but what's quite striking about immigrants is they put a lot of money into the system, like, they pay taxes and they pay Social Security, but they never collect it because they never collect the Social Security because they're not legal immigrants. Right. So the net is a contribution into the system. But the part of this that I've always kind of been puzzled about is you look at jobs that take, typically immigrants, especially the kind of immigrants you're talking about are taking, and you say, who are the Americans who actually want those jobs or would take those jobs? You know, when you, when. So you bring. Do you bring like 10 people in during the, a month to do the harvesting and for your farm or your dad's farm?

Well, we will hire mostly kids, just. And it's mostly during the hay season, right? And so you got your hay season, say from 1 June till maybe the end of September, and then it is. It's spotty to say the best. You know, we may work all week and we may, you know, get all the hay, you know, and then it might rain for a week and, you know, and so on. So it's not like a. We don't bring them in on a 8 to 5 basis. We bring them in as a need basis, you know, and just keep in touch with them. And I try to call them a day or two ahead and say, hey, we're going to have hay on load tomorrow morning, or we're going to, you know, and we come in and, you know, and they come in and help. Obviously, on a, on a bigger scale, you'd have to have, you know, some of the people that are going to have to be hired. I know we have a fruit farm here in Toursville, and they, you know, from time they start picking apples. They got the immigrants in there and they're, they're picking and, and, you know, and I, being on the Farm Bureau, I talk to these people a lot. And, you know, their big concern is, you know, when we start pushing that minimum wage, he said, I can't afford those. Right. And he's got it. He's definitely got a point, you know, and everybody wants, you know, more money, but, you know, the immigrants are willing to work for a less, obviously. Right. And. And it's not a bad thing. That's not a bad thing if you can get your, you know, good quality product and, and have people that want to work. The question that's always in the back of my mind, Larry, is that if these people are such hard workers and, you know, great people, why didn't they stay home and make their country better? And I've heard that argument from professors, you know, that a lot of times the people that are the smartest in your country that could fix the problems are the ones leaving and coming to the United States because we've already got. Like you said, they love America, you know, and it's. That's an interesting concept in my mind.

Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. And in those countries where they're leaving from, you know, Venezuela and Guatemala, those are tough countries to imagine reforming. You know, they're quite violent places with, you know, in Mexico, too, you know, you think about the. The gang, the, you know, the drug cartel in Mexico, which the government can't control. The United States can't. Nobody can control. Control them. So at a certain point, you know, you moved onto a farm because you wanted to raise your kids. I imagine, you know, they go through a similar thought. They think, well, I could stay and I could try to make my country better or I could go someplace and raise my kids, because. And, you know, I think you and I both would think the kids were the number one thing to think about in that context. Yeah. Okay.

But I was just gonna say it's just such a complicated. You know, it's just there's so many avenues that you have to look at. And again, sitting on the Farm Bureau board, I got to work. I get to work with the county commissioners. And, you know, when something happens, it trickles down. So, for example, a grocery store closes in a neighborhood, all of a sudden there's all kinds of problems that the county commissioners have to worry about, because now the people that normally walk to that grocery store can't get there, so they have to go somewhere. So now they're going to the convenience store, for example. They're using the money at the convenience store, which doesn't go as far as a grocery store. And now we have people that are in, you know, poverty that can't make ends meet. So just by one store closing, the trickle down and everything affects. And I think I really appreciate the fact that I'm on these boards where I get to hear this and then I get to see it and then I can, you know, I get to understand it, you know, because, I don't know, the general guy would say, well, if the score store closes because it's not making any money, then so be it. But the other people don't. You know, some people don't realize how important that is. And I. And I even take it back to my roots, my original thing. You know, a lot of dairy farms have gone out of business. And I think that's terrible because, you know, we had little dairy farms here and little dairy farms there, and they were supporting the community, they were supporting their family. They were taking care of, you know, the. The land and, you know, all that. And now we have these big farms, and I'm not going to call them factory farms because they are still owned by families and the families are doing a great job. But, you know, a thousand head, two thousand head. And it's just getting out of control. Right. And again, it's a tough situation. If you say, well, we want to make. We got to make money, and we're only making $100 a cow, well, then you got to have so many cows to make your living, you know, and then you need more help, so you got to put more cows on to pay the help. And then, you know, it just keeps snowballing, which I understand. And I think, you know, one of the biggest thing, of course, is greed, where we are always trying to get that extra buck, you know, so not just us, these.

Yeah, I mean, these farms. That's an extremely difficult job. I mean, the suicide rate among farmers, you know, family farmers, is extremely high because I think they get into these positions, especially where they're, like, affiliated with these bigger companies that kind of, you know, have the demands and come in and regulate how you raise the chickens or you raise the cows and, you know, impose cost on you and you can't make it, given all of those costs that are imposed on you. Yeah, it's a really tough business.

I. I write a letter to our Farm Bureau members, and I often include mental, you know, mental things, you know, what you can do, how you can help, you know, and so on. But it's. It's huge. It is a huge thing, you know, the mental stability in. In a person that has given everything and, you know, this is your land and your. And. And, you know, they. They just can't make it. You know, we're not. We're not taking care of that. That little guy, you know, the middleman's guaranteed his profit because he says, I'm not selling it unless I get this, you know. And the farmer says, well, what. What are you going to give me? You know, this is what I'm going to give you. You can't tell me what I. You, you know, you want me to have.

So it's kind of surprised you could run a small farm. So your farm sounds like it's not a big farm, but are you able to make it every year? Or, like, are there Some years where you just take in less than you put out.

I do, I do take in and basically I make money, but I try to reinvest it in the farm based on I was going to retire, right. So I have, you know, you buy a tractor and you really don't make any money on the farm or you even have a little bit of a loss because, you know, the expenses and so on. But I've got it. I'm, you know, slowly building everything so that hopefully in a few years I'll be making a lot more money. But you know, when I throw in the factor that I raise my own meat, you know, my chickens, raise my own eggs, you know, pork, I do sell most of my lambs and goats and then I do have a little side business where I roast pigs for people, you know, so we're making a little bit of money that way, you know, and, and so, yeah, I mean, it's, it's. I'm not, I'm not, I can't pay all the bills, but then again, I'm living here, so part of it is my personal, you know, personal income.

Okay, so just to finish up on the immigration issue. So one of the big fights that's broken out in the MAGA world about the immigration issue is this H1B visa issue, right? So H1B visas are these special visas that are given for a special purpose to bring a foreign person into the United States to work. They work at lower cost than the American would work. They're veryit's almost like, you know, indentured servitude. They can't really take another job, they can't quit, they can't go anyplace else. They've got to work for that one company. And Elon Musk, of course, a very strong Trump supporter, spent $277 million to support getting him elected, has come out very strongly demanding that they increase the number of H1B visas. And it's quite striking because for Musk, like if you look at Tesla, Musk would lay off a whole bunch of American workers at Tesla and then bring in a whole bunch of H1B visa workers, paying them less, being able to have much more power over them because if they, they don't do what he says, then they go back home. And so he wanted more of that cuz he thought that was essential to make his businesses work. And then the MAGA types like Steve Bannon are like, hell no. This was all about America first. And so if you want to hire people for your company, Hire Americans first. And the idea that you would lay off Americans in order to bring in foreigners under an H1B visa is just crazy. Now, my own personal view is I'm very much bring in as many people as we can legally. I'm with you, but let's bring in as many people as you can, because that seems to me is what America has always been. But I just wonder when you hear that conflict, which side do you think makes sense or do you have suspicion about, like, what's motivating Mr. Musk, perhaps?

I definitely hear everything you're saying, Larry. The thing about, I guess that, that whole mega thing, you know, or mag. Or whatever, I, I think that a lot of that is driven by the news media and, and different things like that, which I, I don't trust. And I think there's a lot more people out there that are just average guys that aren't, you know, one way or the other now and again. With as many people as we have, you know, Larry, with as many people we have in this, this, this world or this country, people are going to go down to the inauguration tomorrow. I'm not going to go down. That, that doesn't even make any sense to me. You know, why would you do that? But that's what people, you know, want to be involved in. Some people, and it's a, whatever percentage it is, obviously, I think they're the, you know, maybe the diehards are way the heck over there, you know, and, and I'm not way over there. And I, you know, you hear the people that are on the other side that are way over, and I'm not over there either. You know, I'm somewhere comfortably in the middle going. I certainly don't agree with, you know, Ms. Mr. Elon, you know, doing what he's trying to do under the table. But I also can listen to Larry and say, yeah, I. Getting more people in here and with employment and, you know, the diversity certainly makes sense, you know, because is what is, like you said, it is what we are. We, we are a country of blended people and different things like that. So I, I can see both sides of it. But the, the answer isn't as clear to me as to what we really need to do here, you know, but like you said, we get the, we get those people in there and they're damn good people. So we want to ship them back or do we want to use them? And then you. Now we're going to use these people. You can't win, you know, I mean, it's just like you. If you're. If you're in the band and you are the. Or someone there can play the trumpet to no end, and you say, oh, well, you live in a different, you know, area. You have to go back there. You're like, man, that makes our band, man. He's the dude. And you go, no, don't want that. You know, So I get it. I get it. I. I am not. Like I said, I'm you. I think you've. You've figured out a little bit more about me, that I am a conservative, but I am not way to the right. You know, the. I think it is important that we take care of America first, but in a way that is, you know, with humility, graciousness, and the things that are important to, you know, a family value, a value that we can all live with, you know, And I find some of that stuff really interesting that some people are willing to open up their town, but did they open up their heart? You know, did they. Oh, yeah, we want them here. But you're not going to be in my backyard, right? In agriculture, you know, in agriculture, it's the same thing. We want cheap food, but I don't want that pig farm where I can see it, right? I want bacon at, you know, $3 a pound, but please don't have the pigs around me, you know, and. And those are the things that it's. It's really interesting how, you know, things work out.

But I guess the question which I started today with, you know, and I, you know, I said that I come to this, expect this next administration expecting that it's not going to be the president helping the average guy. It's going to be the president helping his buddies or rich people like him. And, you know, obviously this is not proof one way or the other, but it does feel like if I were making a case, I'd put this on the side of saying if the president supports. Supports. Elon, sounds like the president is supporting rich guys like him as opposed to ordinary Americans or, you know, those engineers are not ordinary Americans. You know, they went to mit, and I didn't get into mit, and neither did you. So the point is, I'm not saying that these are like the average Joes, but the point is they're Americans, right? And those are the people who are being laid off so that the H1B visa come in. And that sounds like, you know, the one issue we find through polling, it's really quite amazing that everybody agrees on is the corrupting influence of Money in politics. We ran an initiative in Maine to take out super PACs, and 75% of people supported it. And when I went there, I gathered signatures for it. Last election, a year ago, and the first guy who came to sign my initiative, the initiative, was the Trump campaign chairman for the county. And he looked at it and he said, hell, yeah. And he said, I'm going to get every one of my people to come sign your petition, too. He was gathering signatures to get Trump on the ballot. And that's because that's an issue that just unites us. You look at this corrupting influence of money in our politics, and you're like, this is just terrible. And that's the question, I think, that we have to ask about, like, where are we going to be in the next four years? Like, is it the money that's going to make the calls, or is it, like, a commitment to the ordinary American? Which, you know, I think that's the way we understood. We understood what he said he was trying to do. Okay, I have one more question, one more set of questions I want to ask. And because I'm going to be disciplined, we're not going to go on for three hours in these conversations. Pat, as fun as it is to watch you on the other end of the zoom here. So the thing that. One of the things most surprising to me after this election was we had a whole bunch of issues get raised that maybe I wasn't paying attention, but didn't seem to me to have anything to do with what we were talking about leading up to the election. I mean, in the whole three hours that we talked, never once did we talk about taking over Greenland or Canada being the 51st state, or reclaiming Panama. Right. I mean, none of these were the issue. And then all of a sudden, here we are, Empire America. We're just going to take over everything, and he's going to use whatever power he can to do that. Like, when you hear that, what's your reaction to that?

I. I don't know, Larry, if I even have a reaction, I. I take some of the stuff that people say and I just look at them and I think, I don't have time for this. I really don't. I don't have time for it. You know, now I know this is a bigger issue. Don't get me wrong.

In.

In this whole political part. I realize, do. I think Canada would be. I think that would be an awesome. Something to that effect if you were to. I don't think it's a. I don't think necessarily a state, but I certainly maybe, you know, break it into four providences or four states or whatever. I think that's an awesome idea. Or green. Or green Greenland or even. Even Mexico or whatever. I get it. But I also look at it and go, you know, stop. Just stop. Just stop wasting my time. You know, it's like when I get in a conversation and I know that there's a lot of people out there that, you know, think, oh, there's more than two genders. I just look at them like, look, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna go here. You know, I. I'm really set on two genders. I'm not gonna have this conversation from the standpoint that we're gonna. We can agree to disagree, but that's it. We're done. You know, I'm not going to waste my time on those kinds of things because I know for a fact that I can. I got a cow out there, and I got a bull. I can get a calf. If I have two cows or two bulls. There's no calf. Right? That's just it. I'm done. It just can't do it.

Okay, but when you say that you're done, you're done with it, like, so, you know, if, let's say in the next month, you know, Trump starts saying he's going to aggressively take Greenland, what's your reaction to that?

I probably wouldn't, you know, aggressively now. I. I don't think that's something that we need to get into. If, if you're talking to a country and they want to become the, you know, 51st state or whatever it is, that's certainly, you know, is there benefits? It's just like any company, you know, that you're. You're gonna. Is there a benefit for me to do this? Is there a benefit for me? You know, I. I have this farm, and I have some farms that are beside me, and I'm looking at, you know, maybe trying to purchase some of them, but which one is, you know, just like us? I will say which one's the best one we should go after or whatever, you know, and if. And if Greenland is something that we think we should do, then maybe that. That's where you, you know, do some proposals and come up with the goods and the bads and are the people there in for it or whatever? You know, I don't know. I'm not, you know, privileged to that kind of information. And you're right. I. I didn't hear a whole lot about this with. With the Panama and, you know, Canada. Although it's. It's funny how some of this stuff does come about where I guess Trudeau is going to step down now. Yeah. Or he says he is. And, you know, I know there's been a lot of conflict up there. We actually have family up there, and they said sometimes it's pretty bad and sometimes it isn't, you know, so we all have goods and bads, you know, in everything that we do. You know, the. The healthcare system up. Everybody says it's. Oh, it's. It's. So. It's free, but you have to wait, you know, and, well, if you need to be seen right away, that may be a problem. So I. I agree with you, though. I. I didn't hear a whole lot about that. And like you said, Larry, the other thing that I. I've often noticed is that everybody throws something out there when they want you to look over there.

Yeah. Yeah.

And you don't see what they're doing over here.

Right.

And I'm. That's the one thing that really gets me going. I'm like, is what? Every time they do that, I think, okay, what. What am I missing? What am I not seeing that they're doing right now? Because, you know, we're harping on that and everybody's focused on this. I don't want to say stupid stuff, but stuff that. Is that going to happen? You know, and then you look over here and something already happened.

So that is such a great point. And I think that. That we. You're going to see that a lot, because we saw that a lot in the last. In the last administration, too, where, you know, you draw attention away from people, from something nobody wants to be paying attention to, by talking about something crazy that, you know, the press can't. They can't resist it because it's crazy talk.

They can't. You're right. They cannot resist it. You know, and the clip that I showed you, or you showed me there, and I looked at it, you know, even the election, the 2020 election, Larry, it's over. It's done. I can't. I cannot focus on that. I mean, you know, we talked before. I have some doubts, but doubts are, that's over. I'm done with that. I. I don't like it when people bring that up. It's like, even. Even from a wrestling standpoint, you know, I've had matches go the wrong way and. And referees have definitely made the wrong call. There's not a damn thing I can do about it, except for learn from it and move on. And try to teach my kids that, hey, you're out there in that match. You're out there in life. Don't dwell on that. Move forward. You know that You. You can't. You can't dwell on what happened last period. You can't dwell on what happened, you know, last. Last year or last month or in life. You know what I mean? You. You've got to be positive, and you got to move forward. So I. I'm. I'm with you on that one, man. That's the old bait and switch, you know?

Bait and switch. Okay, Ben, this has been fun. Until the next time. I'm grateful for you taking time. And next time, if you've got things that you want to push against me, line them up. I'm here and I'm waiting.

Yeah, I enjoy our talk, buddy.

Okay.

And stay warm, stay safe, all that stuff, you know, and good luck to you.

Okay?

God bless you, Larry.

That was the first episode of this season of the podcast Another Week Way with Ben Hepburn, and I'm Larry Lessig. You can find these. Well, you found this, so I don't need to tell you how you can find these episodes, but I hope you'll find ways to help others find these episodes, because we're not going to spend money to promote this. But this is a conversation I hope more people can have, because I think the most important thing we as Americans can do right now is to find a way to speak across the algorithms that are designed to turn us into ignorant people who hate each other. We can disagree with each other, and there are a lot of things you're going to hear I disagree with Ben about, but I don't hate Ben or the people I disagree with. I hate the world that makes it so that we seem like we hate each other. We can. We can fix that world. So this conversation is part of the commitment, and you should do it, too. Maybe your own podcast, but if not your own podcast, at least coffee once a month with somebody you know you disagree with. And if not coffee, then maybe a stiff drink. Actually, I don't think you should get a stiff drink with anybody. But, you know, do what you will. These podcasts are produced by Equal Citizens. You can find us. That's what I wanted to say at Equal Citizens Us on the web. That's where you can find us. And this podcast is available wherever you get your podcasts. Obviously, you got this podcast and it's produced, or it's actually produced in the Technical Sense by Josh Elstrow of Elstro Productions, who has been a loyal and really fantastic producer, getting through technical difficulties because we're not professional audio people for many years. Stay tuned. Next time we're going to talk about the first couple weeks of the Trump administration. Maybe they'll be happy conversations. I'm a little fearful, given the saber razzling rattling about what's going to happen in Chicago on the first day of deportations, but we'll see. I'm not committed to this being a disastrous four years. I just fear it will be. But I want to imagine that whatever it is, we can find a way to talk about how to make it better. And that's what this podcast is committed to. Stay tuned. See you next time. This is Larry Lessig. Thanks for listening.