S7E3: Ukraine, DOGE and RFK Jr.

This is Larry Lessig. And this is the third episode of this season's conversation with my high school friend, Ben Hepburn. A conversation launched when we both recognized what we probably both expected, that we have fundamentally different views about this president and this administration. And we wanted to see an experiment whether we could talk about those differences and find common grounds and identify where there's differences and why there would be those differences. And in this episode, we're going to talk about two events. The first is the Ukraine crisis, the conversation in the Oval Office with the President, Volodymyr Zelensky and the Vice President, and what the United States position on Ukraine should be, or more precisely, what our relationship to Putin should be. And then the second conversation will be about Doge and whether we agree with Doge or what we might disagree with Doge. And here again, as with the first conversation, I think you're going to hear some, maybe it's not surprising, I don't think it should be surprising, but some common ground. And then as a fill up at the end, we're going to talk about the vaccine denialist who's now running the Health Department and discovering that denying the efficacy of vaccines has serious deadly consequences. Stay tuned. Ben, great to see you again. I discovered you're a legend. You're right. So how many legends are there in Pennsylvania now? The wrestling legends? I mean, you were District 4 or something like that, right?

Right. Yeah. They just did a ceremony last night because I was inducted into the Pennsylvania Coaches hall of Fame and it was the first time that they've actually had time to do it in our area. So they just, you know, made note of it and I got introduced in front of the crowd and they, you know, they said a few things.

So that must have been pretty, pretty felt pretty good to be a legend. I've never known any legends before. This is exciting. This is going to boost this podcast to know that we've got a wrestling legend. It's going to, to really help.

Right, right.

Okay. Well, so here's our third round conversation. The last one, the theme I kind of took coming out of it was let's look at, see if we can see the glass half full rather than half empty. And there are two things I was hoping we're going to talk about today. And one of them I'm going to be completely happy to say, let's see what the half full is. But I kind of want to start with the one I'm really the most troubled by, puzzled by, like amazed by. And that's this whole Love affair our nation's now expressing for our former enemy, the Russians. So I wonder if you, as you watch this whole thing going on with Ukraine, did you see any of this stuff going on with Ukraine this week?

I did. I did. I watched a little bit of it. What concerns me about that, Larry, is I, I know they had some meetings behind closed doors, and it looked to me as though that was the, that press conference they had in the exchange. There was, there was some things that were missing, and I didn't quite understand what was, you know, what was said behind closed doors. And I, I've been looking, you know, because I have, you know, friends that are, that are Democrats and friends that are Republicans. And the banner back and forth, you know, some are thinking this, it was, it was a great exchange. Others were, you know, was bullied. And, you know, I'm setting on, I'm sitting on that fence again where I, where I look at it and I say, you know, Jordan Peterson, the psychologist out of Canada, he says, you know, you can't have a discussion without risking the, without risking being able to offend somebody. So I guess I felt both guys were offended. So it was a discussion, and I'll just leave it at that. I don't know what was said behind doors. Something else was said, and I keep hearing bits and pieces. So I'm not sure that if, you know, I don't know what was, what was leaked out.

Yeah, I think that, I mean, I think it's clear that they were talking in part about the demand that we've made that they give us their minerals for us to be willing to continue to help them. But the thing that, like, was said before, like it was said on the 20, I guess, a couple weeks ago, was the declaration by the president that Zelensky should not have started the war in Ukraine. Now I just wonder, do you, do you, do you look at this and think what happened here is Ukraine started a war against the Russians?

I don't, I don't know enough about it. But what I, what I took from the beginning was that Russia made the, Russia made the advances. That was my initial take. I've heard of, you know, different reasons why. And again, Larry, I'm having a real hard time understanding who's telling the truth and who isn't across everything. You know, but I took it. I certainly believe that Russia invaded Ukraine. That's my understanding.

I, I, yeah, I mean, we agree. I mean, that's, that's my understanding, too. In 2014, Russia came into Ukraine and took Crimea and said, this is ours. And then there was a big peace plan that the Germans and the French and the Ukraine's signed with Russia to say, okay, ceasefire, let's just stop fighting about this. And then February 24th, I think 20, 22 tanks come across the border. So it seemed, from my perspective, pretty unambiguous that, you know, is Russia starting a war with Ukraine after it had signed an agreement saying we're in peace after taking a chunk of their land. And so this is the part that just, I just don't know how to understand, like, how could our president just free frame it as if, like, these are the aggressors and poor innocent Putin has been preyed upon by them. And it really bothers me. I just wonder if that's the way it is. Does it bother you?

Yeah, I agree with what you said. I believe Russia was the aggressor. However, I will say, having four children in the military, I don't want to see this go to we're involved in another war with Russia or there. Either way, I'm trying to do my utmost in researching and studying some of this stuff because it seems like they're, they're trying to push for this, you know, war, whether it be with Russia or China or the combination of both. And, and I certainly don't, I'm not a, I don't know, a scholar in this NATO, but I realize that if, know, they, they allow Ukraine to join, then they all have to protect it. And then it's so complicated to me that I, I'm, I, I'm not comfortable with any of this. Larry. I, I'll be perfectly, perfectly honest with you. I mean, like I said, I have four in the military and they could be called up to go, you know, to war in Russia. And I, I'm not comfortable with that at all.

Yeah, no, that would be a disaster.

I don't know if that answers your question or not, but I know I'm not comfortable and I don't know enough about this whole background. And if this happens, that could happen. And if that happens, this could happen. I mean, I certainly understand, you know, everybody's anger towards everybody and discontent and the words and, you know, certainly Putin doesn't like this person and, you know, Zelensky doesn't like that person. I can understand all that. I don't know how you deal with that, that kind of logic to begin with, you know.

Yeah, I mean, the real challenge is like, how do you get forward, move forward. And, you know, I, for a while was thinking Maybe Trump was being master strategic negotiator and just trying to shake things up to get to a place where there would be peace. But it just seems like, you know, the idea that what peace means is that the person who invaded your country gets to keep what he's taken. Just seems really destabilizing because, I mean, the point you're making about whether we have to be involved is a really important one. Ukraine is not a member of NATO. Article 5 of NATO says that anybody who is a member of NATO, if they are invaded, every member of NATO is obligated to step up and defend them. So there are a lot of countries that are on the Russian border who are members of NATO. And, you know, the real anxiety here is if this aggression, which, you know, started in Georgia, extended to Ukraine. There's lots of talk about the Baltics, and of course, the influence over Eastern Europe was pretty pronounced for most of our life. If that continues, then we will be in a war. And so the question is, what do you do with a guy who just feels like it's okay to go take over Georgia, it's okay to go take over Ukraine. And once that's done, then his objective, which he has said is his objective to restore the Soviet Union is one step closer. When do your kids have to go to war to defend against that?

I agree with you. I don't know. I'm hoping that what you said there so previous, that Trump might be, you know, this negotiator and seeing pieces of the puzzle that perhaps you and I don't see and that he can bring Putin to the table and, you know, encourage him. And I get the fact that, you know, you say, okay, he invaded and he got property, and it's. Everything should be right and wrong. And I get that. But sometimes you have to let some of it go to get the better of the deal, so to speak. I don't know if that's the better outcome, but it's kind of like, you know, that old saying, you know, you cut your nose off despite your face. What if we, what if you. It did say, hey, you all right, we caused a lot of problems and we're going to give you that, but no more, right? And go from there. And then the consequences, hey, look, you do it again, we are in an all out war with you now or whatever that, you know, constitutes. But I agree with you sometimes, you know, what's that saying? You know, you pick your battles, you pick what you have to pick to survive. You know, those, those battles, you know, You. You lost the battle, but you won the war. All those kind of come into my mind, and, you know, I don't have the answer for that, and I don't know that I can. With. With the information that I have. I. I'm. I don't want any of this. But it seemed like this new administration is. Is. Is at least trying. I thought the old administration wasn't trying as much as they should have been, but again, not knowing every fact, it's puzzling to me why, Larry. It's puzzling to me why anybody would invade and blow up stuff and then want. Doesn't make any sense, right? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Yeah, well, I mean, it is a good question. You know, if this really were. If you could really draw a line and say, okay, I'm sorry, Ukraine, you've lost a big chunk of your property, but this is the line and he's never going to cross it again, that would be one thing. But I think most people in Europe kind of say, hey, we've. We've had that line a bunch of times before. Like, there have been two times in Georgia where the line has been drawn, and then he's just gone over it. And here in Ukraine, again, a decade ago, he came in and just took a whole chunk of Ukraine and said, this is mine. And they said, okay, peace no more. This is it. This is the line. And he signed an agreement with Georgia, with Germany and France and Ukraine, and here he's crossed it again. So, like, when is it appeasement? When is this just Chamberlain and leading up to the war. And when is it, you know, a line you got to draw and, like, insist on that? You can't just come in and invade a country and take the line. I mean, look, he could say his claim over Alaska is stronger than his claim over Ukraine. Right. Historically, they actually had Alaska, and Ukraine was always an argument. So what can he just come in and take Alaska and then claim, you know, just let me have this and I won't take any more.

Right. I don't have that answer. I would hope that that would be a straw. That would not be allowed to happen.

Yeah.

You know, and I. I would. I would definitely think that would be, you know, you know, one of those times where. What did they say when they bombed for a harbor? They. They think they may have just woken a giant.

Yeah.

You know, so. Yeah, I. I don't know. I would hope that that would. That, you know, you know, he's. He's not knowing President Putin only as he's desperately a spoiled child or a spoiled person who continues to want. And I read stories, I see that there's people in Russia that are still using an outhouse. Why don't you get your own people in order and why don't you take care of them before you need more land to do whatever you're attempting to do. And truly, Larry, I think that's part of what, you know, the contra or the things that we're worrying about here in this country that a lot of people are saying, hey, let's take care of us first. And then when we have money left over, we'll go help other people. And you know, I know it doesn't just work that way, but I think that's where a lot of people are coming. This average guys out there like me are like, let's take care of ourselves first and then we'll move on to everybody else. And I don't know why Putin isn't doing that. I know they have problems. They have, you know, people that are again, still using outdoor restrooms. Right. And it's not just one or two. It's a significant amount of people. From what I, you know, my research has come up with. I could be wrong, but.

No, I don't think you're wrong. I've been there a bunch. It's, I mean, it's a country that's had enormous growth, you know, in the last 20 years. I went there initially just after the wall. I mean, I'd been there actually my first time is 1982. But I came there just after the wall came down. And that was really a depressing period. And they've, you know, really, really had enormous improvement since then. I was, guess I was there in Christmas of 2016. It is the most. Moscow is the most beautiful Christmas city any place in the world. Unbelievable, like efforts they do to light it up and make it seem like a real celebration. But at the same time, this guy's a real tyrant. I mean, you know, you're in the member of the press, you question him, you're dead. Navalny, this, you know, real hero of like trying to fight corruption in Russia, murdered. So like, you know, he's not, he's not a nice guy. And so that scares people because you got a crazy, you know, deranged, power hungry man with nuclear weapons bullying his way across Europe. This is, we've seen something like this just without the nuclear weapons before, right.

There's nothing there that I'm not going to agree with you on, Larry. That's, you know, again, you know, and I, you and I have both talked. What, what do you do about it and what's the cost? What's the cost going to be? Are we going to go into war and we're going to lose our young men and women again, you know, that you do normally in those wars, those situations. Do you sit back and watch? Do you try to negotiate? Do you, you know, I would say at this point right now, you know, I don't think that maybe perhaps Trump is the, is the favorite for either one of those countries, you know, but should he be, right? I don't think so. I don't, you know, he's, he said it in that, those clips that I did watch. You know, he's, he's about America, wants to put America first, and he doesn't have an agenda. He's not on Putin's side. He's not on Zelensky's side. He's trying to make the best out of a bad situation.

And, you know, well, it's easy to say he's not. It's easy for him to say, look, I'm not on Putin's side or I'm not on Ukraine's side. What's weird is when he repeats Putin talking points like, we didn't invade. Ukraine started the war. I mean, that's Putin's side. I mean, that's not, you know, nobody else asserts that. Only Putin says that Ukraine started the war. Right. So when Trump repeats what you, what Putin says and nobody else says, that's a pretty strong signal of which side he's speaking from. And it kind of terrifies a lot of people because, you know, for the whole of our life, literally, Ben, the whole of our life, we've been fighting this kind of Soviet, Russian influence in the world. And here you just kind of hand it over. Like, here we're just folding. Like, whatever that fight was about, it's over. Like, we're giving in. That's kind of astonishing, especially when I don't remember this being part of the election. And, you know, the latest poll, Quinnipiac has 81% of people don't trust Putin. Economist says 78% not favorable view of Putin. It's not like Americans love Putin, but, you know, now we have a president who's, who's parroting Putin, talking points about why he's, he's in this war with Ukraine and why Ukraine is the aggressor. And that's just kind of terrifying. But we don't disagree, I guess, about the facts, as long as that's true, and we're both fearful about the consequences. So that's.

And I had talked before with you, Larry. We have friends that are from Ukraine, and they're here, and their parents are still there. And, you know, they were. They were relieved that President Trump got elected because of the corruption of the, you know, that they believe that Biden and that whole Zelensky were very corrupt. I don't know where the money's going. I don't know any of that. I just know what they said firsthand and when they're able to talk to their mother and dad over there and what they're reporting back to them, you know. And again, that's one side of the story. That's. That's just it. And, and I. What's frustrating about this to me, Larry, is I get in here and I look at these stuff and I start to research, and, boy, you know, you get two different sides of stories. You don't know who's telling the truth. And then that old saying that there's two sides to every story and somewhere in the middle is the truth. And, you know, I don't know. I just don't know.

Yeah, well, we could. We could spend a whole season talking about the problem of, you know, the Internet and media and, like, how we know what the truth is anymore. That's a huge problem. Just finished. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that's Ukraine. And I don't think we have a lot we can solve with that, but it's not a big difference between us. I mean, you gotta say it was kind of weird to kind of, you know, so you watch that press conference and, you know, Tass, the Soviet. The Russian media is standing there in that press conference. AP and Reuters had been excluded from that press conference. It's like, it's kind of weird what's going on in that White House, but. But here we are. Okay. So the second. The other thing I wanted to talk about, touch on in a little bit, go a little bit deep on, is Doge. And I want to start with by saying, you know, Doge, the Department of Government Efficiency. The idea behind Doge, I take it, we both agree, is like a really wonderful idea. Like, you know, hell, yeah. Let's figure out how to make governments efficient. Like, who could be against that?

Right, Right, Larry, that has been attempted many times. Right?

Yeah.

I mean, you know, what Bill Clinton was. I think he. He announced he was going to cut 100,000 jobs or, or whatever it was. And, you know, other presidents have done, you know, different things. And, yeah, I think it's a great idea. I will tell you what my. I don't know what you want to bring to this discussion, but my biggest problem and what upsets me the most is that none of either party has stepped up and said, hey, this is a great idea. Let's get involved with this. Let's get a couple, you know, Republican senators or House members or let's get some Democratic people in there. I don't, you know, let's get them in there, and let's do this together. Let's do this bipartisan thing. Let's get this in here and let's see. Okay, so you're telling me, for one example, is I've seen some stats. Oh, there's. There's a guy. There's people there that are 250 years old collecting Social Security. Is that true? Isn't it true? I'd like to see where you sit down and go, my God, you know, two people from different parts of the. Of different thoughts are sitting here. Yep, it's true. Look at this. We found it together. So I'd like to see that happen. And of course it's not. And I don't want to take any away from you, but that's. That's my big discernment with that, that I think that it. This should be a bipartisan thing and not Elon Musk only, you know.

Yeah, well, we agree about that. I mean. But I think it's important, though, to start and figure out what is it that's great about the Department of Government Efficiency. My view is. It's the efficiency word. And what efficiency means is doing either the same amount. I mean, doing more with the same amount of resources or with less resources. That's what efficiency is. You're getting the same, but you're paying less for it. So when Henry Ford went from, you know, something like some ridiculous 96 hours to make a car down to 93 minutes or something ridiculous like that, that's efficiency you're getting. You're producing more of the same amount. But the thing that seems to me is actually Elon Musk's plan is not efficiency. It's just reducing costs. Right? So, you know, if you walked into the dmv, which I remember that DMV in. I think it's. It's in Montoursville, that dmv. You walk in that DMV and you say, this place sucks. This is the most inefficient government bureaucracy you can imagine. And if somebody Said, hey, I got an idea. Let's fire half the people here. Nobody would think this is going to improve the efficiency of the dmv, right? It's going to reduce the cost, but it's going to make it even worse than it already is. And yet that seems to be the basic strategy. Let's just cut, cut, cut. Let's fire, you know, and in this incredibly, you know, reckless way, like, you know, they fire people working in the nuclear, Overseeing nuclear weapons stuff, and they're like, oops, sorry, we shouldn't have fired those guys. Or the people running bird flu, you know, protecting us against bird flu. Or even Elon admitted at the cabinet meeting, oh, geez, we fired the Ebola people. And then we realized, oh, that was a bad idea to fire, fire the Ebola people. So it's like, if you're going to do it, you ought to do it efficiently. I mean, you'd think the Doge would at least be efficient itself, but it just seems like slash and burn, kicking the barn down, not doing anything to try to make the system work better. Is that the way it feels?

I agree with you on that, Larry, and I think it's a tough call. And when you go in and you try to make changes and then you say, whoops, right? And certainly, I'm sure you and I have done that where, you know, we're doing something at home and I'm, I got to cut this out. I can't do this anymore. This is. And then I realize why I did it. And a great example for me was when I quit teaching. I retired from teaching, and then they called me back and I went in and I was teaching the same subject matter that I was teaching before. And, like, one day I taught it and it didn't work. And I come in the next day and I go, oh, my gosh, now I remember what I was doing, you know, that made this work, and I had to reconfigure it. But, you know, it's just things of that nature for me that nothing's going to be efficient. I have, you know, I have very little good things to say about this oversized government. But, yeah, I agree with you. You know, it does have to be thought out. I think people are just so fed up with, you know, big government and the waste of money that I think they're happy that something's being done. I really do. I think that that's the key, is that people are happy, but that you and I look at it and go, but is that the right thing to do? Is that what we really need to be doing? And some people are just, you know, well, on both sides. Some people are so blinded by. I'm so glad he's doing it. I don't know if it's right, but he's doing something. And the other people are just so upset that he's doing something and he's changing something that, you know, they're on the other side of the fence. And then you have the banner back and forth instead of looking at it and reasoning through it. You know, I seen a post the other day where the guy that posted it, he was saying, I can't wait till these get into this. This Doge gets into the cancer treatment funding. And right away one of my democratic friends, you know, got in there and said, hey, this research has helped me. I was 72, there were 72 people. And you know, I'm still alive because of this research in cancer. And then another person got on and said, I don't think they're talking about the actual research. I think they're talking about how the money is going to a CEO. And, you know, for example, you know, you send in 100 bucks and only 50 of it goes to research and 50 of it goes to administration. And the guy that made the original post got back on and said, that's exactly what I'm saying. It's not about the cancer research. It's about the, you know, the misconstruing or mis. Or putting funds where they won't belong or the, or the corporate greed or whatever, however you want to say it. And then it all made sense and then that thread kind of went silent. So I think that's what's really happening.

And

you're right. I mean, I see a lot of people complaining about Elon Musk and having young kids do this, you know, 19, 20 year olds. Well, I've worked with 19 and 20 year olds on some of these computer systems and are very smart. But in the back of my head I'm thinking, you know, 19, 20, 21 year olds seem to be a lot better than. We had a young girl here, four or five years, or 13. She was 13, right? Greta Thornburg is that young lady. And she was giving all kinds of environmental advice from a 13 year old. And people were just loving that. And I look at that and it doesn't make any sense to me, you know?

Yeah, I mean, I don't have a problem with young people working, but I do have a problem with, you know, young people working without carefully figuring out what the problem is, you know, so when you were talking about the 250-year-old, it's actually the claim was 150 year olds. And I happened to know exactly what he was talking about because my dad had the steel fabricating company and he had a computer programmer. And the program language that he used was cobol. And COBOL as a program language doesn't have a date function. So the way you've got to get around that is you've got to set an arbitrary date, which is date zero. And then you count the number of days since that arbitrary date. The arbitrary date that's been sent is 150 years ago. So if you happen to have somebody whose birth date is not in the system, it looks like it's 150 years ago. When these computer geniuses got up and said, we have all these people who are 150 years old. What they were really saying to anybody who knew anything about computers was, you guys don't know the first thing about what you're talking about because Social Security is run on a COBOL system. I mean, you know, so that's what those numbers were. They could have figured it out. They should have been a little bit suspicious because all the birth dates would have been the same. It's not just that everybody's 150 years old. They all happen to be born on the same day 150 years ago. But, you know, it's like, this is like a real system running and taking care of a lot of things at the same time. And the idea that you come in and shoot from the hip and just slash and burn and like, celebrate that you're, you know, is really troubling. I mean, he. So one of my favorite tweets that Elon triggered, he tweeted this thing out that said, we just discovered FEMA sent $59 million lax week to luxury hotels in New York City to house illegal migrants. Sending this money violated the President's executive order. Gross insubordination. Well, you know, when you unpack this and look at exactly what's going on, these were not illegal immigrants. These were people who were legally coming into the country. You know, this is kind of how you deal with them. Instead of Ellis island, you bring them into this place and you and you house them. They were being put up not in a luxury hotel. If you've ever seen this hotel, it's horrible. But the cost for each night in the middle of Manhattan for these people was $12 night. And this wasn't authorized through FEMA. It's just another program FEMA was implementing. Nonetheless, they went in, the government went in and stole the money from New York's accounts. Like, they reached the. They got the bank to sort of take the money out of New York's account. And New York woke up the next day, and they all of a sudden had $80 million taken out of their account. And again, it's like, how can this be the way the United States government does its work? These kind of, you know, kids come in, they think they figured out that there's a gross, you know, wrong done, and they just go and steal $80 million from it. This can't be how you run. It's not how I. My dad would run his company, let alone the United States government. Right. That's kind of not what we would expect. Right?

Not what I would expect either. Not at all. And, yeah, you know, again, I do a lot of. I know you figured it out. I do a lot of listening before I do a lot of judging. I don't know. I don't have all the answers, obviously. And, you know, I just listen a lot and I hear it on both sides. And I'll go back to what I said originally. I think people are so tired of actions just like that. Larry, if you're. If you're telling me what you know for a fact and you're. And you're saying that that's the kind of stuff that they don't want, and it's not just hap. It didn't just happen now. Right. This isn't the beginning of government not doing a good job.

Yeah, right.

I mean, I look at. And I say, I think the government has done a great job in certain areas. When I travel out west to go hunting in Montana and I see those roads and I see just, you know, what a great. It's unbelievable that there's roads to these places and the way you can get there and travel. And, you know, I'm just. I marveled at the snow fence along those highways where they get, you know, hundreds of inches of snow and how they do all that. It is great, you know, and how men have built this country. Absolutely awesome. But then the flip side is you look around and you see. We all do. I see 10 guys fixing a pothole, you know, in the middle of the road in Pennsylvania. Seriously? Ten of you?

Yeah.

You know, and I realized there are jobs when all 10 are busy. That wasn't one of them, you know, and.

Yeah, no, you're completely right. I mean, I think that there's deep frustration. People are really convinced their government doesn't work efficiently. And that's why we start by saying, yes, let's make it work efficiently. But I think we're also saying that this kind of slash and burn is not a way to get to efficiency. But the other thing that really bothers me about this is if you look at kind of all the initial actions of this government, many of them directed by Musk, but certainly Trump and Musk together, there's this weird way in which they all happen to benefit Elon Musk, right? So Elon Musk has 24 NLRB investigations against his companies. President comes in and fires illegally, I think head of the nl, one of the commissioners in NLRB and two of the people working in the commission. So the NLRB can't do any work, they can't prosecute anymore. That's it. So that those 24 investigations are stalled. Consumer Financial Protection Bureau had hundreds of complaints against Teslas and they were going to be the company, they were going to be the bureau that was going to regulate Tesla's X's new payment system that they're rolling out. Oops, no CFPB anymore. So these things disappear. SpaceX had been investigated by the FAA and fined for its failure to comply with safety protocols. Musk attacks the lead administrator. He leaves just before the new guy comes in and says, oops, all these problems are gone. And then they announce a $400 million contract with his Starlink company. Same thing with Fish and Wildlife. They had raised questions about SpaceX's launch site and all of those problems are now kind of wiped away. USAID had been investigating his Starlink contract. Bam. No USAID anymore. And of course that benefits China to close usaid. And he has very strict ties in China. The FEC is what investigates violations of campaign finance laws. There's a scad of them that were raised against him after he was paying people in Pennsylvania and doing all these things that raised the question of whether he was complying with the law. President fires the chairman of the fec. So the FEC can't function anymore just as an agency. He can't do anything because it can't. Doesn't have a majority, it doesn't have a quorum that could actually vote to initiate a prosecution. Same thing at the sec. There are many actions against Tesla in the SEC and those are stopped. New people coming in means there will be no prosecution. The FDA was investigating Neuralink. The people investigating Neuralink his company are gone. They've been fired. And then you have all these inspectors general, like the people inside of the government whose job it is to get out waste and abuse, fraud and abuse. Seventeen of them are fired against the law. I mean, it's a technicality, so I'm not sure it really mattered much, but it was technically against the law. Law. And again, like the inspector general from the FDA is investigating Neuralink's experiments on monkeys. Gone. No more risks from that. And then the one person who is in charge of making sure that people are living up to their ethics obligations inside of the Executive branch, the head of the Office of Government Ethics, who would be the person who would say, you know, you running all these companies maybe should not also be making decisions about government companies contracts going to your companies, the sort of basic conflict of interest rules. That guy's fired, too. So we don't have anybody who oversees any of these conflicts. The President promises us there won't be conflicts, but bingo, plenty of these kind of conflicts. So it's not just we love the idea of efficiency. Not really excited about the kind of Slash and Burke technique, but it's a real question of, like, if you're going to do this in a way that's benefiting you directly. There's something deeply troubling about that where it shouldn't be. The way you go about it. You're the richest guy in the world. You don't want to give up your conflicts, then maybe you shouldn't do the job. But you could afford to give up your conflicts because you're the richest guy in the world. What's the reason for you to be inside of government, twisting the arm of government in a way that just so happens to benefit you.

Right. I just. You're presenting a lot of information that I really never heard, you know, laid out like that. I will agree with you 100%. I am a little suspicious of Elon Trump, or not Elon Trump, Musk being in that position in which he has a lot of control. Right. I'm very suspicious of that. I don't know who you find to that doesn't benefit some way or another from all this stuff. Right. I'm looking back and it seemed like the last administration was pushing Tesla and electric cars, and Elon Musk is this genius and he's doing a great job, and, you know, we want to do that. And now, you know, this other guy picks him up and he's, you know, supporting him, and now we put him in all these positions, and I don't. I don't think it's. I'M like you, I have suspicion that there's ulterior motives as well.

Yeah, even if you don't. I mean, I have friends who, like, know him really well, like, are really close to him, and they say, no, no, he has no ulterior motives. And it's like, it's one thing for a friend to say he doesn't have ulterior motives. And maybe that's right. But I think the average American's allowed to say, this just isn't cool, that you have the power to basically protect yourself from the enforcement of law against you because you've spent $277 million to elect a guy to president and that guy likes you and he's willing to do whatever it takes. Yeah, it's a little bit. It's true.

I'm not going to disagree with you on that, Larry. Not at all. I, yeah, I, I, I agree with you. I just think people are so happy that they're looking into things and stirring the pot, and, you know, maybe they don't want to look at the, you know, the real outcome or what could happen. And, and like you said, you know, I don't know. Right. I don't know what he's, what he's capable of. I don't know what he's doing. Like you said, he's the richest guy in the world. You know, I agree with you. I do. I totally agree with you that as we're looking at that, how, how can't you just help yourself out a little bit? It's just human nature, right? It's just human nature to, well, we change this a little bit, man. We'll do better. We'll do all right. And I get it. I mean, I, there's a lot of things that are going on that I, you know, that I don't understand and that why people need, you know, the kind of money they, they have or need or want, you know, and this has nothing to do with politics, but, you know, you look at Tom Brady and how many times did he come out of retirement, didn't you? You know, he just loved the game and he wanted to play. But at the same time, man, you let a younger guy take over, right, and let them, you know, have some success as opposed to two or three more years of tremendous amounts of money and so on. So I don't know.

Well, he was a legend. So, you know, you must be rich, too. You must be getting these billions of dollars, too. You're the wrestling legend in Pennsylvania.

I'm rich in other ways. Not so much money. I have kids and grandkids and they're all healthy, and that makes me a millionaire. I will share a story, Larry. I had a Russian coach with me. He came from Russia, and I don't know his real name. I'm assuming he was under some kind of protection and he was a Russian coach. But when I first met him and we were coaching together and one of my kids come running in, right? And Ben was small and he goes, oh, he goes, ben, you have son, you millionaire? Well, you know, three more of them came. Oh, man, you, you millionaire? Three times over, you know, and so, yeah, that's the way I look at things is obviously you need money to pay your bills. But I feel very blessed and, you know, I feel like a millionaire. I got, you know, 12 grandchildren. The twins just came. And my other son down in Florida who flies Blackhawks for the army, he just announced that his wife is pregnant again and they're having, they have one boy and a baby girl. So. So it's going to keep growing.

Wow.

So very fortunate.

Wow, that's amazing. And you have the twins, the twins that are wearing the Harvard onesies now, right?

Twins are doing very well. They just had their one month checkup here a week or so ago. They both weigh exactly 10 pounds.

Gosh.

They're not, they're not identical, but they are growing like identical twins and everything's going great.

Yeah, that's exciting. Okay, just one more question. We haven't talked about this before. I'm just wondering where you are on this, this kind of crazy former Democrat, the guy named RFK Jr. We've got, he's now, of course, head of HHS. We have this explosion of measles in Texas now from, you know, measles at the turn of the century. There was no more measles in the United States. We had like gotten rid of it in the United States. There are other countries that had it. But, but of course, we've seen this kind of anti vax stuff spread on the Internet now for, for many years. And RFK himself is like one of the big people pushing this. And now we have, you know, one kid's died in Texas and there's outbreaks of measles in Texas. And he, he canceled the advisory committee that was going to, you know, pick the flu vaccine for the, for the next flu cycle. And so it's not clear we're going to have a flu vaccine. Do you kind of feel like the United States decided that we should, like, step back on the idea of vaccines or is this just kind of crazy to you?

I've listened to some reports and it seems like there's an ungodly amount of vaccines from the time that you and I were born to now. Right. And I've also, you know, I have, I have friends too that, you know, they, they, they've given their, they've got those, you know, vaccines and all of a sudden, sudden, within a short period of time we're dealing with some health issues, autism tendencies and different things like that. That certainly scares me. I think there's gotta be a reasonable amount of vaccines, obviously. And when we talked before, one of the things that we talked about was people coming into this country not vented, not knowing what they had. So, you know, it would be real easy now to start saying, oh well, all these, all these people that came across the border probably brought that measles in with them and now you're dealing with that. You know, we basically had it eradicated and now we're dealing with it again. So I'm not an anti vaxxer on certain ones, but there's a lot of things that as you read and you have doctors explain things to you and, and you know, I didn't even know, like tetanus. I know there's some, you know, other things they put in with the tetanus shot. And basically if you go into the hospital and you have a dirty cut and you either have tetanus or don't, don't worry about getting a tetanus shot now if you didn't get it before, you could very well be, you know, gone. I do question some of the vaccines. I know that there's some that are pertinent, you know, and that are very good. And I don't know if you heard me about the tetanus one. You know, basically from what I did a little research on it just the other day, I know they put some other stuff in there with this tetanus and basically if you've got, if you go in and you haven't had tetanus updates and you know, you have a wound that you got tetanus, the vaccine really doesn't help you at that point from what I, you know, gather.

Yeah.

So, you know, it's just some of the stuff that, you know, has been sold to you and maybe it's true and maybe it isn't true. I've never taken a flu shot, you know, and I've never been, you know, that sick. But again, in my environment, around the animals, around, you know, that kind of stuff. The earth and the dirt and, you know, the manure and all that. The doctor said, you got your own vaccine, gonna get sick. I was saying my. My daughter.

Yeah, you were saying.

And we had her firstborn. There was, you know, we were holding it and. And, you know, she was playing with something and put it in her mouth and. And my daughter goes there. Get your immunity, you know, because it was something that I had.

Yeah.

And of course it's gonna be, you know, dirty or whatever, but get your. Get that immunity build up, you know, so I get it. So.

Yeah, my wife is like that, too. My wife is like that. This kind of natural immunity, I think, is really important. But in the context you were saying that people bring measles into the United States and might. That might be actually what is driving the spread. I don't think that's actually true. I think what we are seeing is the spread in areas where there's not the vaccine, not the fact that people are exposed to people from the outside.

I didn't mean that, Larry. I meant that that would be fuel for people's fire that, oh, look, we weren't running these people. And look what's happened without. That's a great point or knowledge, is what I'm saying.

Yeah.

You know, and that's. That's the kind of stuff that I think we have to stay away from. We have to be mature enough to, you know, do the research, Wait for the research. I know it's not always easy, you know. Who was the guy that just passed away in Arizona? Gene, the actor?

Yeah, Hackman. Hackman.

Yeah, Hackman. They just found him dead. And, you know. All right, don't. Don't do any speculating. Let's do the autopsy. Let's do the tactology of reports, you know, and. And the fact that, you know, I listened to one of the guys, the one did. The guy that does those things, and he's like, you know, what's interesting is that the dog was there, and they also found the dog, but yet there were two dogs that were alive and well. So he said, there's a lot of questions, you know. So all I'm getting at is, you know, find the facts out before you start speculating, you know, what. What is actually happening there, I guess, and go from there, Right?

Yeah. Especially because I just finished this book today called the Chaos Machine by Max Fisher, which is talking about the Internet and how these platforms like Facebook amplify the kind of content that is most enraging the kind of Content that drives you to come back and look at more and more and more. Same thing with YouTube, same thing with all of these companies. And so you might be led to believe, like, about vaccines. This is one of the most important examples. Another great book by Renee Diresta called the Invisible Ruler starts with this story. You know, if you just look at the Internet, you're going to see tons of stuff about how terrible vaccines are, like they've got causing autism, blah, blah, blah. But that's not because that actually represents any sensible view. It's just because that's what will drive people to engage, engage with the platform. So it's just Facebook that's pushing this stuff out there so they get to sell more ads. And you're like, holy shit. You're like leading all sorts of people to make their children be more vulnerable to these deadly diseases just so you can get a little bit richer. Mark Zuckerberg I mean, this is kind of outrageous, but that's the reality and terrifies me because I don't know what we ever do about something like that. But that's what's being produced in America and across the world by these platforms.

I agree with you 100%. I like to get on Facebook just for the birth of a baby, the death of a friend, what's going on out there. I tend not to believe those kinds of things. But of course they're there and certainly people are going to look at those and listen to them. But again, you have to be informed with your decision. But again, we have, like you said in their book out there, I think they said the world is flat, you know, because the communication is so easily got to people. Right? And it's no longer, you know, it's no longer dial your phone and ask for the operator and you know, that kind of thing. It's just instant, you know, can talk to somebody in Tokyo or California or whatever, an instant. And it's, it's incredible, obviously, but at the same time, you have to be careful and you have to be educated and you have to be slow to, you know, come up with some of the facts and not go off half cocked. And you know, I, I agree with you. I mean, there's, there's, there's no question. I agree with you. Even though we may have some different viewpoints, a lot of them we agree on. I mean, I mean, you've asked a lot of questions here of me and I've tried to answer them as honestly as I can. How do you feel about the people out there that I I think are purposely, you know, slamming the United States or the Constitution or, you know, I'll give you. I just watched a clip on Omar. That's the one from, what, Minnesota? And she was saying how the American people are so dumb because we have a second term with Trump, and that doesn't fit. Well, she should be saying, I don't like the way they voted. I don't think this. But you shouldn't be calling the people dumb because that shuts their ears off or their mind off to you, and you may really have something important to say, and they're gonna go, I'm not gonna listen to you anymore.

Right? No, you're right about that. But that's why we're talking, right? I mean, because I surrounded by people who would say, why would you ever spend time talking to somebody who doesn't share your political beliefs? And it's like, well, why would you talk to people who only share your political beliefs?

Right, Absolutely. And, you know, they're your first. Your first podcast, our first podcast when you wrapped it up about, you know, the hate and all that stuff. I truly believe, Larry, that is the problem. We just, you know, people are just hating. I mean, truly. I got friends that are Democrats, and they are, you know, on. On Facebook. If you voted for Trump, just take me off your feet. I don't want nothing to do with you. And I'm like, oh, my goodness. And there's other people the same way. You know, they're. They're bashing this, they're bashing that. And, you know that. I just don't understand why you. You hate somebody that much that has a little different view. I mean, what happens at the end of four years here when Trump's done, he's done, we're gonna move on somebody else. You know, And I look at this and I say, how long can Putin hang around? How long has he been in power? And I look at it like this, and I say, okay, at least we know Donald Trump has an end to his presidency. Putin may be there for how many more presidencies? I don't know, but at least we got a system that is better than what they have.

Absolutely.

Again, looking at that glass as half full. You know, it's half full. We may not have the best, but we got a good system.

Certainly better than the Russians. No doubt about that.

Right? Right.

Okay. So we're being disciplined. We're not going overtime. And I'm grateful for your time again, Ben. This is a lot of fun.

Yeah.

Good luck with the lambs. You're birthing lambs out there now, right?

Lambs are coming, Goats are coming. Yep. I just had a calf two days ago, so that's the last calf on that cycle. So that'll be, you know, the babies, will they stretch anywhere from, say, four months to obviously a couple days old. So they'll be happening and, you know, it won't be long. We'll be back in the fields and, you know, gone from there, planting and sowing and all that. But, yeah, it's a new beginning. Right. For each year, and it's a positive thing. So hopefully everything will, you know, keep moving in a positive direction. Right. And, you know, but I can't stress enough, Larry, that, you know, it is about that hate. And I don't know why people have to do that or, you know, hate so much. I wanted to definitely, you know, commend you on that, wrapping up our first session where there's. I don't hate these people. You have different views.

Yeah.

Right. And I use the example vegetables. Right. Some people love every vegetable. Me, I don't like cauliflower. Right. And don't hold that again. Don't hold that against me.

You didn't tell me that. Ben. I'm not sure we can continue this conversation if you're going to be hating on cauliflower here.

Right. But that's just something. Now, Larry, I didn't say I couldn't eat it. I just. I would never order it out and I would never buy it in the store. But if I go to your house and you have cauliflower, I will certainly eat it. But that's not my favorite. Right. And it just. It's just. It's a sad state of affair that we don't. We can't get along any better than. Than what we do. And.

Yeah, well, let's try. Let's try to demonstrate that we can. That's what we're doing.

Absolutely.

All right. Till the next time. Great to talk to you, Ben. That was the third episode of my conversation with Ben Hepburn. Conversation, which was designed to identify differences and instead seemed to uncover lots of agreement. I didn't really deliver on my promise from the second episode to up the technical quality of these recordings. I didn't really work through one big problem that we have in recording these episodes, and I've now figured out how to solve that, but I haven't done it in the past and I haven't figured out time travel yet. So I apologize for that, but it will not occur again. These episodes are produced by Equal Citizens. The actual hard work by Josh Elstrow of Elstro Productions. You can find these at our website, Equal Citizens Us Anotherway. And there you can give us feedback or ideas or directions about disagreements we might actually realize if we're we actually talked about them more extensively. Next episode, I'm going to put it on Ben to tee up the questions that he thinks we need to resolve to see whether we can uncover real disagreements. Stay tuned. Thanks for listening. Share broadly. Work hard. I don't know what that means, but anyway, thanks for listening. Bye.