S7E6: Pulling It All Together

Foreign. This is Larry Lessig. This is the podcast Another Way. This is episode six, which has been six episodes in season seven of a conversation with my high school friend Ben Hepburn, who lives in Williamsport, actually Loyal Sock, Pennsylvania. Trying to find common ground enough to understand where we might disagree about where America is politically and specifically about the current president, Donald Trump. This episode is a kind of wind up and cleanup of everything that's happened so far, because I lay out in as firm a way as I can, sounding a little bit hysterical at times, exactly why I. I can't understand how someone with the background and values of Ben Hepburn, background and values that I myself would have embraced clearly when I was a kid in his town too, how someone with those values could support. And I'm gonna talk about four features that I think are the bugs of this president. His authoritarian character, his idiotic policies, his traitorous attitudes, and his corruption, which is for me, the most significant. And we're going to hear how and why and with what purpose Ben might resist these characterizations. It was a fun conversation. I'm eager for you to hear it and I'm kind of happy. I think we did recording quality at a level that makes it at least not miserable to listen to. So thanks for listening. Stay tuned. Okay, I think we're episode six. I think we've just passed the 100 day mark. And I just wanted to pull it together a bit and come back to the sense that I had when I drove out to Williamsport before the election to come to my high school reunion, which I'd never done before, to find somebody particular you to ask this question. How the hell could you support this guy? And so, like, let me just summarize, like, why that just roils inside of me right now. And there are four categories here. I would say authoritarian, idiotic, traitorous, and corrupt. So authoritarian. You know, this guy is behaving like a mob boss in the sense that he's making illegal threats to force people to do what he wants them to do. So we just had a judge look at the threats against Perkins Coie and say these were completely illegal violations of the Constitution universities. He's like saying he's going to cancel the nonprofit status of Harvard University. He has no legal authority to cancel the nonprofit status, but he's just doing it to try to force them to do what he wants them to do. He threatens X. X pays him $10 million because of his claims about the unfairness he seeks. Had an X meta pays him $25 million. CBS is gonna agree to pay him money because he disagrees with how they edited an interview of Kamala Harris. There's no legal basis for the threat. The CBS one's the most outrageous. The Constitution actually absolutely would forbid. But he's threatening them and he's forcing these people to cave in the face of his threats. Okay, that's authoritarian, idiotic. The tariffs, These are completely idiotic. There's never been an economic theory about how this was going to help America. It was going to help some industries, like the steel industry was going to be benefited by these tariffs. Okay, fine. But the rest of America suffers. It's a middle class tax increase. Goldman Sachs says we're going to have the lowest growth, highest inflation of any of the G10s. And when he's asked about it, he's just like, you know, pulls a Marie Antoinette moment. Remember told, she's told. The Queen of France is told the people have no bread. She says, let them eat cake. They say they're going to not have things on their, on their shelves. He says, well, you know, we might have a Christmas where the kids have two dolls rather than 30 dolls. What are you talking about? Dolls? Real people are going to lose, they're going to lose their houses because you've destroyed the economy for no good reason. No good reason. Tourism is collapsing. He's blocking spending on the bipartisan infrastructure law. Prices are up. They are not down. Traitorous. He has embraced Russia's perspective on the world. He says Russia didn't start the war in Ukraine. Ukraine started the war in Ukraine. 20. He said 53 times in his campaign he was going to end the war in Ukraine within 24 hours. And now he says, quote, unquote, I was joking. And then corrupt America suffered. In the first hundred days, his net worth, his personal net worth has doubled. You know, besides the billion dollars, literally a billion dollars in free legal work he has extorted from these law firms. $10 million from X, $15 million from ABC, $25 million from Meta. Amazon is paying him $40 million for a documentary about Melania. And then on top of that, this incredible grift of the meme coin which has doubled his net worth as he literally offers access to the White House for people buying his Meme coin. The top 25 owners of meme coins have special meetings with him at his own golf club in outside of Washington. Worded to be a member of that club cost a half a million dollars. You know, I talked, we talked last time about this Vietnam gig where he's going to get as Part of the negotiation to end the tariffs. $1.5 billion resort in Vietnam. Then this last week, Qatar announces a deal with his sons to open up a new resort in Qatar just in advance of his visit to Qatar. This is all grift. And then the Republicans in Congress embrace it. So the latest budget, $0 for FEMA. He wants to shut FEMA down. He doesn't believe in fema. He thinks the state should bear the costs of all of these disasters. Fine. $300 million to cover his gulf. His gulf. He has spent 25% of his time as president golfing. $300 million. Now, you know, you stand back from this and I just don't get it, Ben, how can you look at these all together and say, yeah, that's my guy. Cuz it's not your guy. If this guy were a Democrat, you would be insane about these things. But so, so why aren't you insane about those things now?

Well, Larry, I guess I feel like it's, it's politics and again, you're giving me facts or your information that I, I really am not as privileged to, I guess. Or I feel like it's easy for me to do that when in the midst of my life, when I'm, you know, working, sleeping, preparing meals, you know, living a, living a life. And I get it, that's, this is your, your thing, so to speak. And I get that, I understand that. But I'm also talking to a lot of people and I also listen to a lot of people and I'm hearing them where they're saying it's a good thing, what he's doing, what he's trying to do in this world. And here's where I just had a conversation with the neighbor the other day and I said, here's my question. Are these people that are backing President Trump and saying, well, give it time. These are ideas that we've never heard before, we've never done, and rule out the politics of it. Where you're saying he's making money. I get that. I don't like that at all. Okay, but my question, or my question to him is, are these people not intelligent? Like I say to the neighbor the other day, I said, I listened to Charlie Kirk and he talks, he seems to be very well read and very smart. And I listen to Ben Shapiro, which seems to be a very smart guy, and they talk about different things and you say, so who are you supposed to believe? Am I supposed to believe my buddy from high school, Larry Lessig, law professor? I get that. Or Do I look and listen to Ben Shapiro and the facts that he spills out, or Charlie Kirk or these other people that are doing different things on Joe Rogan? I mean, I don't have one thing where I don't travel a lot when I'm on the tractors. I can't really listen to anything, you know, so it's just bits and pieces here when I. When I sit down, take a break. So I get what you're saying. And what I don't like the politics, you know, that I don't like the corruption. I think everybody's corrupt. But the thing that keeps coming back to my mind, Larry, is this. We live in such a weird, trying time of a world right now that I don't know how you deal with all this stuff and stay sane regardless. Right? And yet I keep talking it and I keep talking to people and they keep saying he's. Donald Trump is doing everything that he promised that he was going to do. Of course, you know, he's full of crap about some things. You know, when you say, I'm going to get in and I'm going to end the war in one day. Well, now, I hope nobody really believed that to a degree, but I understand, you know, his philosophy, if I can say that. So when I'm coaching wrestling and I have these guys that I know that are never going to be state champs, I have to encourage them to say that, look, you can beat anybody. On any given day, you can beat anybody. And I think Donald Trump is kind of that person where I see myself. He's trying to promote all these good things that he's doing and everything. And I don't know, it's so complicated that I have been turning off the news and trying to keep my sanity, because I can hear it in your voice. You're wound up for both of us. You're wound up enough for both of us.

Well, that's right.

You know, and it's. I get it. I get your frustration. I don't know. But again, I just. The one neighbor at the bottom, he gets into a little bit of politics and he says he'll say stuff to me that I'm not aware of, and he'll say, I think Trump's doing a really good job on this. Like, okay, that's your part, you know? And then he'll sit there and go, but I don't buy anything from Amazon. I don't like Joe or I don't like Bezos. Okay? You know, everybody has an opinion, and I've been listening you know, trying to listen. And it's, it's definitely interesting, Larry. I, like I said, and people are getting wound up. And, and that's what I see, though, from a guy like you, Larry, who I refer to, you know, liberal Democratic side of the. The. You guys are getting very wound up. And I'm just kind of sitting here going, I don't know what's going to happen. I'm sitting back and going, is this, Is it possible there's something good going to come out of all this? I hope so.

Yeah. Well, but look, I hope so, but it's magical thinking. I mean, you know, the economy is collapsing. We can see that the economy is collapsing.

And then, But I also listened to podcasts where they said it was coming regardless and that, you know, here's what their comment was. Donald Trump is setting us up to handle the world collapse because I listened to it. And please forgive me, because I don't know names as much as I should pay attention. Other economists were more concerned with Germany's economy and naming some other foreign countries that are on the verge of complete breakdown before Donald Trump got into office.

Right. I don't know other countries. I mean. The Economist in October cover story. The United States has an economy which is the envy of the world. Joe Biden had an. Had an unemployment rate of 4.1%. That was the lowest unemployment rate of any of the last 14 presidents. Our economy was booming, booming. And he blew it up. And he blew up the world economy, too. I mean, you know, this tariff war which was launched against every country, you know, people say, he's being strategic, strategic, it's against every country, has collapsed the world economy. So everybody's gonna suffer from this. This is why everybody is so furious. And so, you know, you say, is it possible for that? There's like some great thing that's gonna happen out of this. Look, you. And I remember, I think I remember this vividly. Cause I was a strong Reagan supporter in the 1980s, early 1980s. And when Reagan came in, he appointed Paul Volcker to head the Fed. And remember, we had stagflation. We had very high inflation. Interest rates were like 15, 18%. It was crazy. And Volcker imposed extraordinary economic austerity, like stopped the growth of the money supply, really, really ratcheted down everything that was driving up inflation. And people suffered. But in that context, there are many economists who are saying, look, this is what's necessary. I can see how this therapy will heal the underlying problem with the American economy. And indeed, after Volcker did that there was an incredible period of growth that America enjoyed. There is no economist, nobody who knows what the frick they're talking about, who's looking at the tariff policy and saying, this is genius. This is a genius strategy. This strategy is a strategy to allow him to extort from countries like Vietnam $1.5 billion resorts. That's all it is. It is a grift. And indeed, in that first term, there was economist who studied his tariff policies in the first term. And his tariff policies, of course, are tariffs plus exemptions. And they looked at the tariffs plus exemptions. And when you looked at them together, the one thing that explained the exemptions was ties to the Trump family or the Republican Party. This is just corruption. And if you don't have an economic theorist out there who's saying, no, no, no, it's genius economics. Genius economics, and you don't even have one, or, no, no, no, that's not right. We talked about Peter Navarro before. Peter Navarro, the one economist, the one guy who's saying, this is genius. And then it turned out that the economist he was citing, he had made up. He had literally made him up. It's an anagram of his own name. He had made him up. He had lied about the studies that he had produced. Those studies don't exist. And it's on the basis of that that we have launched the world into this insane economic policy. And so, yeah, I'm wound up. But my question for you is, why the hell aren't you wound up? You sit back and you say, well, you know, I don't know. I don't know. But if you don't know and you're seeing it's collapsing, why isn't that enough to say, geez, you at least got a burden, President Trump, to demonstrate why this disaster is a good idea. And he has nothing. He has nothing. There's nobody. He's offering to justify this, Right?

So here's one of the things that I will say to you, Larry. Everybody's 401k dropped, right? Except mine. Mine went up $10,000. And I sat here because I made. I looked at it and I said, well, let's do this and let's do that, because I want it in a different market. I want it to be a little safer. I want it to be that. And everybody else is, you know, bitching and moaning and complaining. I'm going, well, I looked ahead a little bit, or I did some things, and I thought, this is what I'm going to do. Yeah, I'm not Going to be greedy. I just want a little bit instead of a whole lot, which maybe we should have by now, I don't know. So I'm looking at my 401k and I'm going, well, I don't know what you guys are griping about. Not that I do know what you're griping about, don't get me wrong, but in my perspective right now, everything seems to be running on pretty good cylinders around here, you know?

Well, you should, you should not be just a farmer then, Ben. You should also be an investment advisor. And I'll give you my 401k because I would love to be able to say that I advantage, but, you know, come on, what the fuck are you talking about? The guy screws the economy, people lose their savings, and then you say, well, you could have lost a little bit less if you've been a smarter investor. Maybe. But the point is still, you shouldn't have lost anything. If we had been, if it had continued the way it had been when he accepted the, you know, oath of office, you wouldn't know. You'd be, you'd be even better off than you are right now and all these people would be better off. So why isn't that enough to say what the hell, enough?

Well, I remember you telling me, Larry, that the economy that a president inherits is. So we're still under Biden's. I think that's what you told me, that part of the problem that we had when we get a new president was we're still dealing with the old president. And when Trump came into office the last time you told me that was really Obama's economy, and that's what was really happening is what Obama had, did or done, and that's why his economy was so good. So now are you not, you're not telling me that what Biden did over the last four years is what we're dealing with right now? Or is it such an extreme change that in the first 100 days he's completely obliviated Biden's policies and has changed him that much?

Yeah, that's a great, great argument. You're exactly right. It's exactly right. When you come into office, you're inheriting the last administration's economy unless you do something dramatic to change it?

Well, that's what I'm asking.

So yes, he did something dramatic. Unprecedented. Never in the history of America had we seen such a dramatic change in tariff policy, which had this dramatic effect. And like the stock market collapsed because the stock market's filled with a bunch of people who know economics. And they looked at this and said, oh man, this is going to totally blow up the economy. And the stock market then blew up the economy. You begin. Now we have minus 0.3% GDP. Like the GDP is collapsing. Whereas the GDP was growing better than any of our competitors. The GDP was growing. So yeah, in general they inherit the economy and in general they can't take credit for the good economy. But if they do something that screws it up, then I think they're responsible for it. And here again is like the thing that drives me nuts about this guy is he just is never honest. So a year before, in January of 2024, year before he became president, the stock market is booming. What does Donald Trump say? This is my stock market. The stock market is booming. Cuz they see the polls and they know I'm gonna be president. Great, then he is president. And the stock market collapses. What does he say? This is Biden's stock market. This is because of Biden that it has collapsed. Oh come on, come on, who can listen to that? Nobody growing up in Williamsport, Pennsylvania listens to that. And as anything other than bullshit, self justification bullshit. And you do too. Like you agree, right? That's bullshit.

Absolutely, I agree. The whole political thing I think is, like I said, it's just terrible. I agree with you on those things. And then yet I listen to all these people that talk about different things and some of the common people are, you know, when I say common people, people that are working, people that are still, you know, a lot of them said I don't even have a 401k so I don't really care. You know, it's kind of like that one song where they talk about we were so poor that we didn't know the stock market fell. Right, right. And a lot of people are in that particular boat and they're like, oh yeah, you guys are worrying about your 401k. I'm just worried about rent right now and buying food. And I think there's a huge majority of people like that that are just worrying about that and saying, well, you know, look, I wasn't any worse off than I was before. And now, and now I'm looking at it and saying, well, maybe this whole shake up thing is going to help us. I think that's where it's coming from, Larry. That's what I see. I see a world that is in complete chaos. And I know you see the financial chaos, I see the character chaos with Donald Trump with Chuck Schumer, with all these guys, the character's not there. I get that. But I also see what I saw when you and I were growing up. You know, our parents had three answers. Yes, no, and maybe. Right. Can I borrow the car Friday night? Yes. Can I borrow the car Friday night? No, I have plans. Can I borrow the car Friday night? Well, we'll see how your report card is when it comes out on Thursday. Right. And those were the kinds of things we're dealing with now. We have people dealing with, you know, so many things that it's. It's just crazy, you know, Can I, you know, now. Now the kids are staying at people's, you know, boyfriend's houses for the weekends. And. And, you know, there's so many things that they're. That you're trying to deal with. I have never, ever, ever seen Larry somebody color their hair purple, green, blue, and look better. I've never seen that. Right. But yet, look around. I start. I do this stupid things. I go to the grocery store and I'll start counting people. How many people have purple hair or blue hair or colored hair. You know what I mean? And I'm like, wow, that's a lot of people. Right? And I think you don't look any better

now. You're standing like our dads did in the 1960s. Right? Like the hippies. These are the equivalent of the moment. Modern hippies. And now we're going to make. We're going to make fun of the hippies. Okay, fine. That just shows we're old. We're just old. That's. That's why we react that way.

I understand, but I'm saying what I was trying to. The point I'm trying to make is that we're dealing with so many things right now, regardless of what you, you know, what you and I may be dealing with. By the way, I don't envy you raising teenage kids right now in this day and age. Mine are raised and all that, but the fact that, you know, there's so many things out there, you know, even the tattoos or the. Or the piercings and all the, you know, the transgender things that we're dealing with, and, you know, mental health is huge. I mean, how many more things do you got to throw on the plate? And then again, I know the financial part with Donald Trump, and I think people are looking for some hope. And you're right when you say this is an extreme case and nobody's really backing him up except for. For the people that think this is a good idea. And, well, who are those people?

That's the point. So you asked this question before. I think it's a great question. Who is Charlie Kirk? Who's Charlie Kirk? Charlie Kirk is a guy who makes money creating right wing content. And the more right wing he is, the more money he makes. So is he gonna come across a fact that shows that Donald Trump is actually an economic idiot and say that? No, because he's going to. He's going to alienate his base. His money will go down. It's always about the money. Ben Shapiro is interesting, similar, but, you know, when Ben Shapiro finally sat down with Zelensky and interviewed Zelensky, he's like, actually, I think maybe I was wrong about all this Russia and Ukraine stuff. Like, so, you know, to his credit, but there too, these are people whose business model is about making money from right wing extremism views. So when you listen to them, surprise, surprise, they're going to support the right wing views. But look, you and I are not making any money money here, Ben. Right? Or I can tell you I'm not making any money and keeping it from you. We're not making money on this conversation. This is just trying to figure out what's going on. And so part of the challenge we have, and this is a real challenge for old guys like us, right? We grew up in a world where when you turned on the television, there was nobody who was being paid to lie to you. They didn't make money by turning us into ignorant people who hated each other. They made money by telling the news, Walter Cronkite every night ended with, that's the way it is. January 14, 1976. Right? And now we have a world where you turn on Facebook, you turn on YouTube, they're making money by creating this extremist content. And so, you know, how do you, you've asked this question a million times. It's the right question to ask. How do you know what's true? And so when you look at, like the fact that he's able to get away with what I just think is the most griftish, corrupt administration in the history of America. Why? Because we don't have a media that holds him to account. You know, when Richard Nixon, if you look at the, I think we talked about this before. You look at the support for Richard Nixon, who was loved about as much as Donald Trump was by Republicans, not hated as much as Donald Trump is by Democrats, that independents were in the middle. If you look at his popularity, it's like bouncing around the same numbers from the beginning of his administration until about six months before he resigns. And then the six months before he resigns, his support among all three groups collapses at the same rate. Why? Because we're all listening to the same story, and the same story is convincing all of us that, that in fact, Nixon was a crook. Well, that's not reality anymore. And that's why you can get away with it, and that's why he's getting away with it. But that's why I think people like us have to have this conversation. Because if we don't find a way to get around the media and try to connect on facts, the country's lost. It's lost. And so I just again think, you know, at a certain point, you gotta say, I'm not up for it. I'm not up for it. There's no evidence that's doing any good. There's a lot of evidence doing bad. A lot of evidence. He's doing good. Double his net worth. He's now $5 billion or something like that worth. And, you know, he came in saying, I'm for, you know, she's for they them. He's for you. Okay, what did he promise to do? He promised on day one to deal with prices as well as ending the war in Ukraine, but, you know, deal with prices. Have egg prices gone down? No, they've not gone down. Have gas prices gone down? No, they've not gone down. Prices have not gone down. The ordinary person that you say we ought to think about, the guy that doesn't have the 401k who's going to try to live on Social Security when he retires. Maybe, maybe there'll be Social Security when he retires. Because their plan is to privatize Social Security to turn it into 401s for everybody, which means all of those people who don't have 401s at iron are really going to be screwed. At what point do we just say, this just turned out to be a mistake? You know, we've all made mistakes. This turned out to be a mistake.

And I agree with you, Larry. The problem that I keep running into with a lot of people. What was the other choice? Okay, what's the choices we have now? What? You know, like I sent that clip to you, for example, with Chuck Schumer, you know, saying about the poll, right, that, you know, Donald Trump, worst 100 days and all that. And then somebody brought up his poll and he goes, oh, polls come and go. You know, we're united. My Point, Larry, is there's nobody out there that's saying, you're right, I gotta do better. You're, I'm at an all time low, I gotta do better. You know what I mean? Yep, Donald Trump screwed up, but I don't have to worry about, I need to worry about myself. Where's that Democrat that's, or whoever, I don't know, Republican Party. Who's the person that we can get in there that says, oh, you're right, I'm willing to admit, Larry, that I thought John Fetterman would make a terrible senator. And I talk to people about this often and they say, you know what, he's actually doing a pretty good job. And I'd be the first one to say, you know, we talked about this before. I was wrong, he's doing a good job. Now, I don't know how good, you know, we talked about Oz before and I don't know how good a job he would do. But you know what, I'm not convinced that he would do a better job. But my point is, at least I'm willing to sit back and go, I was wrong about that. When you present facts to people like, I see what Bernie Sanders and AOC are going around and they're talking about the oligarchy with, with $3 million homes, you know, why are you even talking,

doesn't have a $3 million home, no poorer than any of us. Right?

I mean, no, no, I don't mean aoc. I'm talking about Bernie Sanders. And you know, he has several homes, supposedly. Right. But he's talking about the oligarchy. But yet he's lived in that system for how long? And I'm not saying, you know, there isn't that, but one of the things that I keep hearing is, you know, all the billionaire friends, but there's a lot of Democrats that are billionaires too. And you know, and there's a lot of people on both sides, but why can't somebody just come to the table and say, enough's enough, and you know, say, you're right, nobody's doing that. And of course, you know, Donald Trump won't do it either, you know, Joe Biden, for whatever reason, who, I mean, I don't know who was running the country when Joe Biden was there, because obviously his thinking, cognitive ability, you know, all the stuff that's coming out about that now, you know, it's a mixed up mess. And if, if I'm a person right now and I'm listening to my parents, they're Saying, just don't even worry about that anymore. You, you just live your life and try to get through it, you know, because it's. I'm going to be like Larry Lessig. I'm going to be all wound up.

Yeah, well, you know what? You don't want that, I can tell you.

No, I mean, listen, Larry, I got to go pitch manure, and I would like to be wound up a little bit to get that damn job done, but it just makes you tired or quicker, you know, and, yeah, I get it. I certainly get it. I do. I don't. I don't belittle the, you know, like a lot of the Democrats that I talk to. I understand where you're coming from. I get it. But can you understand where I'm coming from when I say, well, who was the other choice?

Okay.

Was it a better.

Yeah, we could. That's a fair question. And, you know, we would have. And we did have an argument about who would have been the better choice. And. But my question right now is not about who you should vote for. Right. It's like, who should be demanding better from. And, you know, in a world where we can see plainly the guy benefiting personally financially, this has literally never happened before. You mean, remember the scandal in the Clinton administration when it came out that Bill Clinton was giving nights in the Lincoln Bedroom to people who are contributing to the Democratic Party? That was a scandal. That was outrageous. But he didn't benefit from that. That wasn't money to him. But now this guy is on, on television advertising meme coins. What happens when you buy a meme coin? You send money to Donald Trump's family. And who's buying meme coins? Who knows? We have no idea. You know, these, like, these Saudis spend millions of dollars buying these meme coins. Then they show the receipts to the Trump family. And the Trump family is like, oh, that's great. Thank you very much. Now we're going to do X, Y and Z for you.

It is.

You can't name a moment in American history where a president has been more corrupt. And I just again think, okay, we could have had an argument about who was better last November. We're beyond that now. Like, I wouldn't have predicted this level of corruption, and I was the most cynical guy there was about this man. But now that we're here, you know, at a certain point, can't we just say this is, this is wrong, and that Congress, including the Republicans in Congress, need to say, stop this stupid trade war? Nobody believes it's Going to help stop the corruption. Like no meme coin. You know, the Constitution says there's something called emoluments clause which says you president can't receive an emolument. Nobody knows what that word means. Let me tell you what it means. It means money from private people to the President while he's president. That's what you're not supposed to have, but that's what we have right now. We ought to be, you and I ought to be able to agree. As much as we disagree about color of people's hair, you and I ought to be able to agree that's just wrong.

Okay, so who's not doing their job?

The Republicans in Congress. Number one Republicans in Congress. The people who stand there. You know Rand Paul, a guy I disagree with in a million reasons like he helped lead an effort in the Senate to get the Senate to vote to say stop the stupid trade war. And what he said was like really brilliant. He said the Constitution says that Congress and specifically the House is responsible for tax policy. The House has to pass tax policy. Tariffs are a tax. Congress has given to the President the power to issue a tax under this bullshit emergency declaration. So he's made a declaration of a world emergency against, you know, whatever and he's raised the tax. Rand Paul, right wing libertarian, said this is wrong. But only Rand Paul, right? Two other senators voted with him. All the other Republican senators cowered in their offices because they were so afraid to do the right thing. So who's not doing the right thing? Number one, those people. Number one, those people. And you know, the only way they do the right thing is if people like you, cuz you come from a red, you know, red district in a purple state. People like you say you gotta stand up for the right thing. You got to stand up for us, you know, not for the guy who's doubling his net worth in the first hundred days of his administration. You stand up for us. So stop with the stupid trade war which you know, we're just beginning to see the effect in three months it's going to be devastating. And, and you know, the only way to stop is to stop it now. So people like you have got to say this is wrong. Stop it. Stop it. Right.

Well I certainly can say that. Who do you say it to enough that it makes a difference. And I realize you're saying everybody in the red states or everybody. I get that. I'm not, I'm not. Well, you know, Larry, we've talked about the corruption. I'm not for any of that stuff. But there's got to be more people than the Republicans, whether it's judges, whether it's, you know, the Supreme Court, whether it's. I just said this to a neighbor, too, the other day. I said. I. I just think that we've done such a poor job educating, you know, so many things or people or whatever. They're. Like I said, even, you know, the. The Democrats who are out there trying to educate people about different things. But are you educating about the right things? Right. And that's. I guess. I guess that's where I'm coming from, you know, because you keep. Like you said, you're trying to sort out what the truth is, what isn't the truth. You know, you talked about, you know, Charlie Kirk and making money. I get that. But I. I don't see him so much as a political part. I mean, he's. He talks about a lot of religious things and, you know, faith and different things like that. I. But it's getting people to talk. And I do like his messages sometimes where he just said, hey, we're here just to talk. And we're trying to get people to, you know, understand both sides, because when we stop talking, which I think is what's kind of happened, we stop talking. Nobody gets their. To have a point anymore, you know, F you, F this, F that. And it's like, no, we can't do that. We have to continue to talk. And I mean, it's just. To me, it's just incredible, you know, all the things that we're dealing with right now that your dad and my dad didn't have to deal with 40 or 50 years ago. You know, I know the hippies were, you know, a big deal, but not so much now. And again, I don't, you know, I want to make sure you understand the color of the hair isn't. It's just something that I think that doesn't make you look any better. So why are you doing it? And it boils down to, well, I'm trying to get attention. And then it. Then that takes me to the next thing. Like, why do you need attention? And it's the same thing here, you know, like, okay, Donald Trump, you got all kinds of money. You know, Elon Musk, you got all kinds. Why do you need so much more? Is there something that is in these people? Like, holy crap, right? And even I go to, like, football, play your 10 years and get out and let somebody else come in and make that kind of money. Because you've made a ton of Money, but nobody sees that. Right? And I don't understand, I don't understand a lot of that, but a lot of the common folks, you know, there's. Larry, there's distinct things in this world right now. You know, we talk about, I talk to common folks all the time, and they're saying I'm going to have to work till I'm dead. I've already admitted, I've already realized that I'm not going to have. I'm just going to have to keep working. And then I, and I think back to my grant. My great, great grandfather, he died at 48. And he, and I'm. And he looked 100, right? I mean, I never got the chance to meet him, but those people worked so damn hard. And I wonder, is the, is the real issue that we don't appreciate what we have? And, you know, I get that. Then I'm like you. I get a little bit worked up and all that stuff where I'm starting to think, what's the answer? Is it that we don't have appreciation? Is it we don't, you know, understand how hard everybody else has worked and we don't, you know, especially when you go to a high school and the car sitting in the parking lot are nicer than the one you drive, you know, the kids come in, in these nice new cars and you're like, what the hell is going on here?

Right?

And it's frustrating for me. So I don't know. I agree with you, Larry. I don't like the corruption. I don't want Donald Trump to make a bunch of money. Somebody's not doing their job. If it's the Republicans, then how is it every Republican like that? Right. Is it as bad when the Democrats are in charge or.

Well, is this like, I'm not somebody who believes the Democrats are naturally virtuous. No, I don't. And, you know, it wasn't all Republicans. You know, my former student Liz Cheney stood up to the man and said, what you're doing is wrong. What you're doing is, is just wrong. And what she did, what's she paid the price. Like, the Trumpers rallied and threw her out of Congress. So there are a number of Republicans that have stood up. Mitt Romney stood up to the president. He had to resist. I mean, he had to. He couldn't run for reelection. But the ones that are left are terrified of him. And that's what they tell you. They will tell you, I don't believe this guy's right. I just believe that if I don't support him. I won't have a job. And I say, you know, if. If you are so desperate you're willing to sell your soul to keep that job, sell your soul. Nothing's going to happen, you know, because you're not going to get anything from that.

And is there. Is there also the attitude, Larry, that you stay there to try to do the best you can? I mean, I don't know, you know, I know that that's part of it, where I know I can't change anything right now or right now. But if I'm here and I know what's coming, at least I can, you know, mold them in or curve them one way or another to try to get the better job. I agree with you. I mean, I've made lots of comments as a teacher, and at times I was hated, because who do you think you are? And I'll share this real quick. For example, our faculty was divided at Mentoursville. And part of the problem was we had a men's faculty room and a woman's faculty room setting. In a faculty meeting, I said to the principal, I said, why don't you tear the wall down between the two faculty rooms? Oh, my God. You would have thought that I was the worst guy in the world, right? And, I mean, I literally walked out of there with teachers telling me, who the hell do you think you are?

Wow.

I'm like, what if you want to be together, get a faculty room that's together. Because it was distinctive, you know, it was the women on one side, the men on the other. And of course, at that time, the women did a lot of smoking. So any men that smoked would go to the women's side and smoke, you know, and all that stuff. I was an SOB and they tore the wall down, and guess what? Our faculty came together.

Wow.

Right?

And, you know, when was that?

Oh, my God. That was probably back. That was in the old school. So that was in. Well, I was pretty young, late 80s, early 90s.

So you used to be a radical, Ben. That's so exciting.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, when you're looking for a solution to a problem, you, you know, let's. Right. And you know, and one of the other things, not that this would. This didn't get me the flack, but, you know, we were having a huge problem in mentors with kids parking on the street in front of people's cars. I said, why won't you just take that spot over there and build a parking lot so they have a place to park and they looked at me like, what? That makes sense, you know, and all of a sudden, everybody's problem was, you know, we had more parking for school events, and we had parking, you know, off the school, off the streets. Everybody was happy. And it. And it cost them you. The price of a parking lot and whatever, you know, sometimes, you know, common sense prevails, but those are the only. So I don't know if. Does that make me a radical? I don't know. But, yeah, I wasn't. I mean, I wasn't well liked at some time anyhow. I really didn't go to the faculty room because I was too busy with, you know, farming and all that. I would only go on occasion. But as it turned out, Larry, we had. We started having faculty lunches, you know, because me preaching at the. At the faculty meeting, say, listen, you want to get together, have lunch together once a month? And, you know, we started doing that and, you know, the faculty finally came together. I don't know how they are now since I left, because, you know, it's obviously a different environment. I don't think they're together as much. But anyhow, so I get it. I get it. And like I said, Larry, I feel for you. I understand you're all wound up. And maybe that's the difference between you and I, and the fact that I do get upset. But I let it go a lot easier as I'm sitting out here, you know, my picture window, I'm. I watched turkey strut this morning and the deer go across the fields and, you know, try to. Try to alleviate that tension so I'm not all wound up like you.

Yeah, well, I remember. Yeah, you live in a beautiful place. But you'll be surprised. We have turkeys, too, you know.

Oh, yeah.

Birkeland's got these wild turkeys, and it's against the law to do anything about them. And they're really aggressive, so, like, they'll be. I don't know what a collective noun for turkeys is, but there's like a gaggle of turkeys, like 12 of them, and they can start chasing you. You can really be in real danger. But we don't have any deer. We have turkeys and deer and some. Some foxes. That's what we got, right?

Yeah, I've seen clips of that, actually. I've seen clips of that. People getting chased.

All right, this was. This was fun. So are you. You're right in the middle of, like, farming, right? You gotta. Are you, like, plowing or, like, what do you do right now?

Yeah, we'll be, we'll be. It's. It's been a rainy couple days, so we'll. As soon as it gets nice, we'll be planting, finish up planting corn. I'm hauling some manure, so I'll be doing some chisel plowing and getting the fields ready for that. And then it won't be long, we'll be starting to make hay. So. Yeah, we still got lambs coming in, there's baby goats coming. The cows are all done freshening, so we're good with that. And I got, you know, my layers and I got meat chickens. So we'll be, you know, another four or five weeks. We'll be butchering chickens for, you know, our chicken dinners.

Wow. So. But do you sell the chickens or is this just for you?

No, it's just for family. We do my, my kids and I and my dad and stuff. So we got 75 meat birds that, you know, and we may do some later on too. But like I said, we try to be somewhat self sufficient. But obviously, you know, prices affect everybody. But in agriculture for a small farm like this, we're, we. I'm feeling pretty fortunate. The prices are, you know, up for us and of course feed prices are up too. But, you know, having a good time, I think, and we're doing all right that way.

How are the twins?

Twins are good. They're growing, actually. Robin's over there watching them. My daughter has, is in the Air Force. I don't know if you knew that or not, but she's, she's decommissioning now within this next four or five months. So she had to take a trip to Pittsburgh for a day. So they're, they got two twins in a year and a half over there. They're, you know, dealing with grandmas, so that's okay. Yeah, so they're doing really well. Everybody else is doing well. We're waiting on child. We got, like I said, two more grandchildren, 13 and 14 on the way. So three little ways yet.

I don't know.

I think there's another one that's brewing. So. Yeah, so we're good. But every. Other than that, Larry, I'm not real wound up.

That's good for you. You sleep through the night. I always wake up.

I do, I do. Well, I noticed sometimes you're on the, you're on it at, you know, pretty early, 4:00 in the morning, you're on there and you know, I, I feel for you. I do, I understand your, your compassion and all that. I really do. And I don't want you to listen. I looked up some facts. I think it said 25% of lawyers become alcoholics.

I would be lucky if I could drink. That would be great. Yeah. But I don't drink, so.

Yeah, 17% are depressed, you know, 30. What's that, 37. Mild suicidal thoughts.

Yeah.

That's not good, Larry. That's not good. Although the agriculture industry isn't a lot. Isn't that.

Oh, my God. Yeah. No, that's terrible. Especially these. These farms that sell out to agribusiness and then they turn out to be just slave products. Right. I mean, you've got. Yeah, that's really bad.

Yeah. So, you know. You know, like I said, Larry, in these times, I think it's so many things that everybody's dealing with, whether it's, you know, the politics of it or the mental part and your health issues and so on and so forth. It's really hard. And, you know, like you said, why am I not getting upset about certain things? And I get it, you know, you're dealing with so many things in today's world that maybe the politics is just left to the politicians and, you know, different things of that nature. Because I don't know that I can understand it. I don't know that I'm, you know, that intelligent a guy where you. You've certainly given me. It's not fair. I go out, I leave here, and I spend a week thinking about what you said and trying to comprehend everything and, you know.

Okay, but look, look, we should at least agree on this. You can't leave it to the politicians because they're just screwing it back, number one. Number two, it's not rocket science, right? I mean, like, this is not like a conversation with, you know, two. Two people, like a. Like an adult and a child. Like, you're totally engaged in everything I'm saying. And, you know, I might have been, like, looking at things different because I've seen different things, but that's kind of my point. The reason we see things so differently is that we just live in different media worlds. And that's the problem. That's the core problem here.

Well, and. And to Larry, we live in different. You know, you're. I'm sure you're hustle, bustle, busy, right? You know, I'm sure there's shows to go see, and I guess there are here in Williamsport, too, but I live in a very rural, you know, the rural area. And many of these guys, like I said, they're not you know, they listen to a little bit of news and, you know, they. We have fun together or, you know, talk about different things and, you know, we're not so in tune to all that. And. And a lot of people that we talk to say, you know, I don't live far enough out yet. You know, and I'm. I'm sitting on my porch, Larry. I cannot see another house light at night. Right. You know, so there is a different mindset to it. You know what I mean? I sat here, it's quiet. You know, you listen to the peepers or the bullfrogs haven't actually come out yet here at this place. We're a little behind. I sat on the north side of the hill, and we're just a few days behind, unbelievably. But it's interesting. I just think there's a lot of things, like, that's really good, but there's people dealing with cancer and you're going, well, you need to worry about Donald Trump. No, I don't. I need to worry about this. You know what I'm saying? And I get it. I get it. So I try to put everything in perspective, you know, talking to my Democratic friends and different things like that, you know, how they're dealing with different things and what they're dealing with and why they see it one way or the other. And so I guess I have that. I think I have that ability to do that.

Yeah, you do. You do. All right. This. Has this been great, Farm. Well, great to see you again.

Good to see you. Good luck with your travels.

All right, foreign. So that was our conversation, Ben Hepburn and I, episode six. Thanks for listening. These podcasts produced by Equal Citizens U.S. find us on the web at Equal Citizens U.S. another way or you get them. Well, you got this. So you know where you get them. But anyone can get them. And at any place, you get podcasts. They're produced by Equal Citizens, actually. Josh Elstrow of Elstro Productions, grateful for his support. Stay tuned for other episodes in this season. We're going to have some conversations with others, not necessarily about Trump, but certainly about the issues that we are are now facing. And an updated episode soon about the extraordinary progress we're making in the fight against Super PACs. I'm reflecting on the fact that I've been in this fight for 18 years and figures it's time. I figure it's time for us to finally find some success. I think. I think that's what we're going to find here anyway. We'll tell that story later. Thanks for listening to the this. Stay tuned for the next episode.