#1 Communication Expert: "Speak Like THIS & It Will Transform Your Relationships!" | Leslie John

Have you ever walked away from a conversation wondering if you shared too much? Or have you stayed silent in conversations to not share because you were afraid of what your partner or your friend might think of you? If you've ever wondered what you should share to your boss, your co worker, or your intimate partner to make sure you have the best relationship, this conversation is for you.

In long term relationships, why do they fall apart? Well, there was a study that looked at people who have loved each other for years and years and years. They brought the couples into the lab and they got each person to try to guess what their spouse was thinking and feeling. And they were wrong 80% of the time, really.

She's a Harvard Business School professor, award winning researcher and author who has been featured in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and the Economist where she teaches the art and science of communication. Leslie, thank you so much for being here.

Another thing that really compounds the issue here is a concept called mind reading expectations. It's really insidious because those of us who have mind reading expectations, we implicitly believe that our partners should just know how we feel. They should just know that we had a bad day and that we're upset just by like the way we look or something. When they don't respond, then we get upset when if we had just said something, I had a shitty day. I'm exhausted. Can I have a hug? Right.

What happens to a person inside of them when they decide not to share what's really going on when those things start to pile up?

Well, okay, so the first.

Welcome back everyone, to the School of Greatness. Today we have the inspirational Leslie John in the house. And she's a Harvard Business School professor, award winning researcher and author who has been featured in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and the Economist where she teaches the art and science of communication so that you can speak with clarity, honesty, and meaningful impact. Leslie, thank you so much for being here. Excited.

Thanks for having me. I'm so jazzed.

I'm excited because you've been studying the art under sharing and over sharing and the power of why we should be more vulnerable in our sharing and share more versus being silent. And when we are silent in relationships, in relationships with people in our lives, it actually can hurt us. And I'm curious, why does it hurt us being silent in relationships under sharing or not being vulnerable versus oversharing in relationships.

Right, right, right. So there is such a thing as oversharing. Like TMI is alive and well. But again and again I found that the Greater issue is under sharing. We worry way too much about TMI and we don't worry enough about tli Too little information. And where this, so relationships is where this. It plays out in all domains of life. But in relationships, one of the things we see, it's really sneaky because when you say like share more, open up. We're like, yeah, yeah, share, open up. It sounds great, right? But as I wrote the book, the writing the book itself for me was amazing therapy. I love my therapist, but like it was changed me and one of the ways that really changed me was what I learned about in relationships. So in long term relationships, why do they fall apart? Well, they, it's not usually some dramatic affair, I mean that can happen and it's horrible. But they, more often they break down because of a slow distancing. It's kind of like you start off, you know the old analogy, you've got your two boats and you're like a degree off. And so at the beginning and then, and then if you never course correct, you just end up, you do nothing.

Is this in friendships, coworker relationships or intimate relationships?

It is, I mean all relationships, but I would say particularly romantic relationships. And here's the reason. So what happens is when we are in a long term romantic relationship, we do know the person better with time, right? The longer you've been with someone, the more you know their values, their traits. The problem though is that our confidence that we know them outmatches, outpaces our actual knowledge. And that's where the problem begins, right? Because if you think you know your partner better than you actually do, then you assume you know, you stop asking, you do the same, you assume they know you, you stop sharing. And that's of course where the problem begins. Because if you stop sharing, you just stop learning about each other and then, then you get all these kind of little, little spats that emerge.

And so you need to keep oversharing the longer you're in a relationship.

You need to keep asking, keep answering. And here to make it more concrete, when there was a study that looked at people who have been loved each other for years and years and years. So like the average age, the average length of marriage was like 12 years. And what they did was they brought the couples into the lab and they got to try to guess what the other person was, what their spouse was thinking and feeling. And they were wrong 80% of the time.

Really.

These are people who have loved each other for 12 years. Like neither of, neither of my marriages has been that Long yet, you know, and like. And they just. But they thought they knew. Right. And so another thing that really compounds the issue here is a concept called mind reading expectations, which is as it sounds. I mean, it sounds crazy. It's like, of course you can't read my mind when you say it out loud like that. However, it's really insidious because those of us who have mind reading expectations, we implicitly believe that our partners should just know how we feel. They should just know that we had a bad day and that we're upset just by like the way we look or something. And so then because our partner can't read our mind when they don't respond, then we get upset and then we do the stonewalling. Right. So then it's just this compounding of errors when if we had just said something, I had a day. I'm exhausted. Can I have a hug? Right. We express our needs and so the people have a high mind reading expectations. It's actually a trait. Interestingly, it's pretty stable. Some are high, some are low. I'm high. So the, the people who have the. It's associated with lower relationship quality, lower length of relationships. But there's hope because self awareness. Right. There's actually a scale, I have one on my website that you can assess yourself. I am very high on it. But once I learned that and there are questions like, my partner should just know what I'm thinking. My partner should respond without me having to say anything. And once those items were presented to me so starkly and I filled it out, it said, you have very high mind reading expectations. I changed a lot. I realized I need to say what feels like over communicating is just communicating. And my marriage is like, it was already good. Second marriage. I had to start a marriage. So the second one is like not making the same mistakes. And it's just gotten so much richer.

Wow. Okay, so you've been married twice. You're still married, but how long were you married for the first marriage?

Five years.

Okay. And how old were you when you got married?

28.

28, five years. So divorced around 33, I guess, right?

Yeah.

Why did that marriage end, based on the research you've done in your book?

Yep.

Now that you have wisdom, I'm sure it's a collection of things. This isn't a therapy session. But why do you feel like based on this conversation and this research.

Yeah.

What would you have done differently even if it was still the wrong match or there wasn't the right fit or whatever. I mean, Maybe some other stuff happened. But what would you have done differently before getting married to see if it was the right thing?

Definitely. I mean, looking back. Well, number one is I was too young, 28. I did not have the emotional understanding of myself that I do now. A lot of people do when they're that age, but I did not. Emotions. I love my family and emotions. You're like, you're starting a sentence to buff them up. I did have a happy childhood, but we did not talk about feelings or emotions, really. So I never. I remember when I was going through a divorce, the divorce in my 30s. And my therapist said, how do you feel? And I started listing cognitions like thoughts. And he's like, those aren't feelings. I'm like, well, okay, I'm sad. He's like, can you be more specific? Finally, he handed me this thing called an emotions wheel, which. Which helps you. It's in my book. It helps you realize the multiplicity of emotions, and it helps you understand yourself better. So. So. So that's kind of where, like, why I say I was. I was too young emotionally.

So you didn't feel emotions or you blocked the emotions?

I thought that was a joke. Sorry. I did feel emotions. Everybody has emotions.

But you couldn't. You couldn't communicate.

I couldn't communicate. I didn't understand my emotions. I didn't honor my emotions. I didn't validate them. If I was feeling something uncomfortable, I'd be like, I just dismiss and not even engage with them. I didn't have an emotional vocabulary. I didn't know the differences between, like, disappointment, frustration, anger, sadness. Like, it was all, like, bad, good. Right? Like, I'm a recovering emotional illiterate. And. And so that. That didn't help matters. I mean, so I guess the main reason is me in that, like, these. I would never. He's a wonderful person, but I never should have married him. And I think that part of this emotional understanding of oneself, like, I'm a huge eq, is, like, where it's at. IQ is great, but says Harvard professor, truly, like, EQ is. If I could choose one or the other, hands down, I would choose EQ. And I wouldn't have said that 10 years ago, really.

So it's so interesting because most of my childhood, I probably had the lowest IQ of everyone, but the highest eq. Well, I learned through suffering and feeling like I was so stupid. You know, I was in the bottom of my class all through, like, elementary school, high school, college. I was in the bottom because they would great they would rank us.

Oh, my gosh.

So I would always see myself in the bottom four. So it just reconfirmed. Oh, I'm stupid, right? I don't have. You know, I can't figure this out. No matter how hard I tried. It was like, I'm not gonna be smart. But then what I would do is I would just observe people all day long and study people's behaviors and watch why are they reacting that way? And I would just sit there and people watch all day in school, all day out of school, I would just sit there and, you know, not like a creeper, but I would just be, like, observing people all day long. And I was constantly reflecting on, why did they respond this way?

Yeah.

And when I asked this question, why did they do this with their face? Why do they lean in? Why do they? And so I became a really good observer and a really good listener. And so it's interesting because it's talking about the power of oversharing and revealing yourself. But I became a really good listener and, like, just kept following up with, tell me more, tell me more. Why this, why that? And by doing that, I was able to build great relationships with people and understand where people were coming from. And I think when you understand more where people are coming from, they feel connected. And when you feel connected, you feel safe. You like people more, you want to hang out with them more, and you create opportunities with each other, whether it be in friendship or work or whatever it might be. And so it's probably why I got into this show, because I'm asking questions.

So let me ask you this. Do you ever find. Did you find. Do you find this pattern of, be honest, people liking seeming to like you more than you like them? Like, people wanting to hang out with you more than.

Yes, this season of life, for sure. I mean, for many years, when I didn't have friends and when I didn't have, you know, a business, when I was kind of getting into the working force or the business world. In order to create opportunities for yourself, you need to know lots of people. You know, if you're starting a business, you need to get customers and clients. So you need to put yourself out there and meet everyone, essentially, that you can and offer services and help and free things to people to get in the door. Then once you get clients or you have a business or whatever it might be, I realized I was giving too much to too many people, and I had no energy for me, and I didn't feel like I was receiving in return from enough people. So I became an over giver, over sharer, over people pleaser because I wanted everyone to like me.

Yeah.

And I wanted to feel safe emotionally.

Yeah.

And then it took the last like seven years like a swing of me learning how to create better boundaries, learning how to heal deeper, to not feel like I need everyone to like me or constantly give to everyone.

That's so important realization.

And by doing that, by creating these boundaries, it kind of, you know, as I've reclaimed that energy and I've put it into the people that I care about the most. And it doesn't mean I don't speak to people if they reach out or whatever, but it's like I learned to say no a lot more than when I was, you know, my 20s and early 30s.

Because one of the ways that I think of that saying no is what are you saying yes to? Like when I say no to meeting with a new doctoral student at five o' clock at night, I'm saying yes to playing with my kids at five o'.

Clock.

Right. And so once I thought about. It's like so empowering thinking of that. The reason I asked that question about the potential asymmetry of liking or connectedness is that you naturally, I mean, you do this now for your job, but from a young age it sounds like you were really curious and you were asking questions. And when you ask people questions, they get to disclose to you. And when people reveal to you, people love revealing. Like it turns out I know some people might be like, what? I don't like revealing. You do like revealing in certain contexts. I will tell you data but you know, you're expressing interest in them and you're giving them attention and they get to share. And revealing, not, I'm not talking about like tricky conversation stuff, but revealing your hopes and dreams, your preferences, it actually activates the place pleasure centers of the brain. So it literally is enjoyable. And that fosters trust. And so I was thinking of a funny situation where one of the ways things that this can kind of go wrong where we see asymmetries of sharing. So very healthy sharing to build relationships, friendships, colleagueships, romantic relationships is the dance of reciprocity. I reveal something, you reciprocate, maybe raise the ante a bit and it's this beautiful unfolding, gradual escalation together. Sometimes it goes awry for various reasons. One of the funny ways it can go awry. Well funny because I'm going to tell a story at my expense. You're welcome. Is when you. So if someone reveals a lot to You. And you don't reveal to them. You. Sometimes one can feel like they. Let me say it differently. Parasocial relationships. These are so brutal for this. So Jerry Seinfeld. I love Jerry Seinfeld. I've watched every episode of Seinfeld. I feel like he knows me because we mistake the fact that I know a lot about him from, well, his professional perspective. And he does, but he doesn't know anything about me. But I feel like we're friends. And so one time when I was at a theater with my husband at the intermission, I saw Jerry first names and his wife. And I just impulsively walked up to him. I'm like, hey, Jerry. Like, we're old friends.

You have no clue who you are.

Yeah. He's like. And he. Obviously, I was like, oh, my God. I immediately regret this decision because then I suddenly took his perspective that, oh, wow. Like, this is some crazy stranger lady. It must happen to him all the time. And so he has a thing. What he does is he says, good to see you. Good to see you. And he just keeps walking, like, as fast as you could walk without it calling it running. And so there's kind of some wonky things that can happen sometimes. But what I wanted to, when we were talking about you had started with the, like, getting married. What happened? And I think it speaks to this important point about emotional intelligence and how, like, you growing up, you really understood people because you observed and you're curious and you got better communication skills.

I think I understood people because I felt very deeply and I didn't have any friends, and I felt very incapable of. Of being smart based on my results in school.

Right, Right.

So since I felt deeply and I. I allowed myself to be in a suffering state internally, constantly. Like, what's wrong with me? Why am I here? What's the point of this life? Kind of like this ruminating thought and feeling of like, I suck, I'm bad, I'm wrong. I'll never be as good as anyone in my class, let alone in the world. What's the point of being alive? This type of rumination.

Yeah.

And I think because of that, I eventually got the courage to say, okay, let me. Let me reflect on why am I feeling this? And let me try to learn. If I can't learn in school, let me find ways to learn outside of school. And that's human dynamics, human behavior. And why do people think and feel and act and speak and walk and talk the way they do? Let me just watch them in a reserve and try to learn from human dynamics and behavior. And so as a, I guess as a Harvard Business professor, what I'm hearing you say is that you think EQ is way more valuable than IQ completely. But most people in the world are trying to become smarter at something and accomplish much more degrees and more credibility when that's not the answer.

I know I'm not doing much for our sales of our degrees. No. But we have like increasingly courses that are like the courses that are really popular for the executives are leadership communication. But it's so frustrating because the MBAs, like the lowest ranked course is often the leadership course. And then they come as alumni and they're like, I wish I had paid attention. Because everything is psychology, everything is communication.

Now here's a question for you. Do you feel like people should get married if they have a low eq?

Oh, I love that question. Love, love that question.

If you have a high, if you're really smart, intelligent, you have a high iq. If you have a low eq, should you get married?

This is tricky because I do think you need to understand yourself to get married. You need to understand what you want and that is eqe. Right. But I also think that, so I.

Because you essentially said you had high IQ below eq.

Right, Right. And I should not have gotten married.

You should not have gotten married because you didn't know yourself emotionally.

Correct? Correct.

But you probably knew on paper or analytically what you wanted. I want to be married. I want to have safety. I want a home. I want a guy who's got this job or looks a certain way. So analytically and on paper you knew what you wanted.

Yes, yes. But I think even that's still, that's analytical, but it's also superficial. And I think that asking yourself like, what are my goals? Do I want children? What are like, where would I like to live? What do I want my days to look like? Those are things that really matter in a relationship that aren't like super deep, touchy feely emotions understanding yourself in that way. But they're still understand, they're still really important things to understand about yourself and your partner. And I think people, I know that people differ a lot in relative strengths and relative dominance of IQ and eq. You know, I, in academia, I can say this as an academic, like IQ reigns supreme, too supreme in my view and really at the expense of EQ in many cases. And tons of my academic friends, they're wonderful people, they're happily married, you know, and I, so I think it's like you got to find your match. Right. And for me, I am a very cuddly, touchy feely person. And so that was a really important part of me that I hadn't honored and understood.

Wait, so okay, I'm confused now because you had a high eq, low EQ before getting married, but you were more in your head. But now I'm hearing you say you're a touchy feely, emotional, feeling person.

I am a feeling person for sure.

But you weren't back then is what I'm hearing.

No, so what I was back then is I wasn't in touch with myself. Right. I would dismiss my feelings, I would dismiss my needs. I would say like the things that I wanted in a guy. Like I wanted. Now I can say it because I'm aware of it. I wanted the like swoon worthy, like just that exciting, the romance, like I wanted that. But I dismissed it. I like, I shut it down. Why? Well, lots of things about my upbringing and you know, I don't want to drag things in, but, but so that's what I mean. Does that help make sense?

Of course, yeah. Yeah.

But I also think it really interesting. We were talking initially a little bit about being parents. Oh my gosh. I, I just wouldn't change that for the world. It's so grounding and so amazing. And I, so I think about this a lot. I'm like, my parents did a great job in so many ways. Like, look at, look at where I am. And you feel like my theory is parents, you can't be perfect. You do your best. Every parent screws their kid up in some way. My goal is to not screw my kids up in the same way that my parents screwed me up. And so with my kid. But now I might be overcorrecting, but it is informed on data. So with my children, my boys, I'm very like, how are you feeling? Like I'm trying to get them and, and they can now they can articulate their emotions. It's insane. They're like, I'm feeling disappointed, I'm feeling frustrated. I'm feel like more sophisticated than just the basic ones. And I'm like, oh my God, this is amazing. And so I'm really trying to nurture that. So much so that it's interesting because when my mother, my mother is incredibly bright and she, back in the day, you know, she was born in 1949 and back in the day, IQ reigned even more supremely and she skipped at least two grades and she always did amazing in school. She's a pharmacist, super successful in everything. But she struggled in other ways, more subtle ways, which I learned recently, like in the past few years as I've deepened my relationship with my mother. And I think my theory on that is because imagine this, you're two or three years younger and you're a girl. Like, teenage girls are just so harsh. Like, that would have been so hard for her when you don't have the emotional maturity. And so my son, he's just turned five and we've done the opposite. We've held him back a year and be. And my mom's like, why you do that? Like, she respects it, but she's like, he's really smart. He does it. And I'm like, yeah, he's super smart. But the emotional maturity, I want him to be able to deal with difficult feelings, process them like so. Anyways, I digress.

There's something about this you said earlier about the mind reading expectations, you know, in male, female, intimate relationships, who has higher mind reading expectations of the other?

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I would guess that women have higher mind reading expectations.

And when someone has a high mind reading.

But not by much.

Okay, well, when someone has a high mind reading expectation of their intimate partner.

Yes.

Expecting them to know what they think and feel at all times or when they're feeling some emotions they don't like.

Yep.

What does that do for the relationship when someone has high mind reading expectations of their partner.

Yeah, exactly. So it's brutal. Speaking from experience. So it, it, what it means is that you have unreasonable expectations, right? And then it sets you up for disappointment because if you implicitly, and that's the thing, it's all implicit. Like you don't even recognize that you're making these assumptions which makes them even more insidious. So if you're feeling crappy one day and like you want, you want, you just want your partner to come and give you a cuddly hug, but you don't say that, there's no apparent outside show of it. Then if your partner doesn't do that, you're like, he doesn't love me. He's a callous, he's a callous jerk. Like what is. And you come up with all. And you're in your head, right? And so what these high mind reading expectations has taught me is to notice this and to be like, Colin, I'm feeling really crappy, I need a hug.

And not saying in a way like gosh, why don't you just hug me already?

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

She's like, I didn't know, right?

And then, and then we talk about it and then I'm like, so for me, if in doubt, cuddles in love, like I don't need like problem solving. I just very tactile. And it's interesting because that then opened a conversation with us about how he said, because I had always thought a little bit like he's kind of aloof. I know he loves me, but he's a little, he's not like cuddly wuddly like I am. And he said, you know, the reason why I have a thing, a bit of a complex because like you, he's a really tall guy and he also was a professional soccer player and he, so he was very sensitive about being overbearing to people and with personal space and he'd never want it. Cause he's so classy and so like you know, never wants women especially to feel uncomfortable. So sometimes it can come even with his own wife as, as like standoffish. And so that was so interesting. I never like, if I hadn't asked, I never would have guessed that because I'm, I'm not, I'm, I'm not like that. So it's really, really important because also when you share, when you say how you feel, like it is a conversation too. And then, then that you become more intimate because you know each other so well and study after study has shown that feeling known for who you really are, like warts and all, is such a strong predictor of strong relationships.

Really?

Yeah. In fact. So suppose, okay, so suppose I have low self esteem. And on the one hand, in one situation, my husband would, if he says, oh, you know, you're such a badass goddess. You like, you're so together and confident and you're really great at what you do. Another version is I know you struggle sometimes with self esteem and not even saying it's okay or anything, but just saying what I am, like that is so much more strongly predictive of a strong relationship than when someone idealizes you because you want to be known. Like, isn't that so much more meaningful that even though if I had low self esteem, he still loves me, he's like, he knows me. It's not like some fake. I'm not an imposter in this relationship.

Right.

Yeah.

That's interesting. I mean, do you feel like you were vulnerable in previous relationships?

No, that's the other thing is I, I was not really, I was not.

So you just kind of held your emotions to the chest. You weren't sharing what was on your heart or mind and like, yep. The sad things you were going through

and I think it was for me. So I think when people under share, there's often two things. One, the bigger issue, which is what I had, is lack of emotional awareness of oneself. Like, I did not know what I was feeling, I didn't understand myself. Which sounds crazy because it's like even the thought of needing to understand myself, like, I am me, I'm the cells in my body. Like, why don't we come with the built in understanding? But we don't. So the core, that's the core issue is not understanding yourself. And then the second is people who really do understand them. This is like my husband, he really understands himself, but he's very reserved. But when someone just doesn't share, you don't know which is which. So in my case, until you share, you know more. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Interesting.

Yeah.

So when did you start to have a, I guess an emotional breakthrough where you were like, okay, I'm realizing that this is who I am. I'm being more aware that I have had this upbringing which is maybe we don't say we love you enough or ever, or we don't talk about our feelings or it's just toughen up or don't cry and you're just like stiff upper lip. Yeah. Get through it. Like, ah, just rub some Dirt on.

You got this. Yeah.

Keep going or do better.

Yeah.

I can relate to that in some ways. But it's like when did you have an emotional breakthrough where you said oh again? It doesn't mean my childhood or my parents were bad or wrong. They just didn't have the tools to teach me these things. I need to learn how to emotionally evolve.

Yeah.

So that I can have better intimacy relationships with my partner, with my children, with friends.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean it was a series of things. Divorce was amazing.

That'll break you open.

I mean I don't think enough people get divorced.

I don't think people should get divorced. I think you should go through a process of onboarding your relationship so you're in alignment 100% with the right values.

That's the best.

And it doesn't mean it's always going to work out.

That's the best.

But doing that before saying let's just

get married 100% the state of the world. Unfortunately we are not psychologically enlightened enough, myself included to be making so in that I just think that people are in marriages that they should be. But obviously I'm biased. So like I'm at the point now where I'm super grateful to my ex husband because I never would have met Colin. I know it's. But yeah, I mean one of the divorce is a big thing which prompted a lot of self reflection. I had a great therapist who was really helpful but it made me start to unpack what it was why I married this person, what went wrong.

But then also do academics go through therapy secretly. But if you're so smart, you have

such iq, we're the ones that need it, right?

I'm not. You said it, not me.

We are the one like oh my God, therapy is the greatest thing ever. That and exercise like for, for well being I think. But, but you have to get the right therapist, right?

Like yeah.

But then there was, I think like there was like I had some really close friends who helped me in, in processing what I wanted and then I also the huge thing, I mean this is all just all developing. It's all an emotional, it's all a journey. But I learned something that really, really helped me really just occurred as I was writing the book because I. Cut me off if I'm rambling. Okay. So before I got married to my first husband the month before I had second thoughts and I had second thoughts because I, I was like attracted to other men. Like super attracted to other men. And I thought, I mean I know like, yeah, that people are attracted to people. But like, it was like I wanted to act on it. And I'm like, this is not, this doesn't feel right. And so I called my mom and I, I said, I expressed the concern

and that was courageous and over sharing that.

Yeah, it was. But that's how lost I was. I'm like, I don't know what to do that I, that I actually said this to my mom. We're, we're pretty close, but this was a big deal.

So I tell her that I want to act on being with other men before your marriage.

I told her that. Yeah. Right. Which is kind of a big deal to say to your mom. So she said, huh. You know, it's interesting because before I married your father, I had second thoughts too.

Wow.

And

in your mind, are you thinking your parents should have stayed married?

Well, so, no. So then I'm like, whoa. And then she said, but you know, she said, the reason I said, like you, I really enjoyed my flirtation. This is how she totally how she'd say it. I really enjoyed my flirtations with other men. But I'm so glad I married your father because look at how happy we are. Look at the lives we've built. And I really do believe they're truly happy. I wouldn't be happy in that marriage, but they are very happy. And she said, you know, the like physical stuff, the like really, I can only think of it in my words. So that's why I'm like, she wouldn't say the way I would say like on a rip. You're a fan. The physical stuff, it wanes. What you have, what we have is like the mature, long lasting love. And so then I was like, oh yeah, I have the mature love. And so I went ahead with it and I got married. And then, yeah, I spare you the details, but it was not a good marriage. We got divorced. And then once I.

When did you know we weren't meant to be together in the marriage? Like right after you were married?

No, I was, it was a joyous day. And like the first year. But then after the first year I, it was like, this is like life settled in. You're like, this is not, it's not it. But it would go in waves, right? Because it's hard. It's a hard thing. Divorce is the kind of thing that's crazy painful in the moment. Like even if it's totally the right call, it's so hard to do because it's so painful even when it's right

you just have kids.

Do you perpetually know? But that was also a thing where, like, I never. That was revealing to me. Right, right. Okay. So then I. Okay, so then I'm divorced, and then I get this email. Few years after I'm divorced, my brother adds me to an email chain, and he says, last check. Check out what's at the bottom. And so it was between my parents, because my brother does their finances, but at the very bottom. So they had added my brother on, and they'd forgotten that at the very bottom of the email, it's a convo between my mom and my dad about my mom going to her lover's house. I know. And I'm like, whoa. I'm, like, filled with rage because they

lied to you about it.

Exactly. Because I immediately went back to that conversation. I'm like, you under shared. If you. It would have been better for you to have said nothing than for you to have told me half the story. Like, how dare. Like, I would never have married that man if you had. If you had told me that. The way you compensate is buy this, which works for you. And, like, I'm not mad. Like, I'm hap. Like, it's. It's. It's consent. It's all fine. Like, whatever. Lots of different relationships. But I know for me, that is not. I. I crave, like, monogamy. And. And so I just felt so misled. I was so angry about it, but I never said it to her. I just kind of lived in, like.

Have you told her now?

Well, so then I'm writing the. I'm literally writing the book, and I'm

like, that's a big betrayal in a sense, I think.

Exactly. And I always felt, you know, and over the years, like, so I held onto this for, like, 10 years. And so over the years, you never

spoke to her for 10 years about it. You saw. And you did in the dressing, right? I know.

See, like, avoidant. But then, like, I was. The. The rage kind of went away. And then I got remarried.

And you still had, like, this resentment problem, and I.

But I kind of like.

And so you're good at stuffing your emotions.

Yeah, yeah. Too good. Working on it. And so then I'm literally writing the book, and the book I wanted, from chapter three, a story of someone who, like, there was under sharing, and they didn't realize at the moment. And then if they'd only known. And, like, it's the kind of story that's hard to find. Right.

You're like this.

And then I was.

Then in like I said, I've stuffed down something there.

It's always in the middle of the night. I woke up and I'm like, oh, my God, I have stuffed this down. I've never talked to my mother about this. She doesn't know that I know this and that I feel this way and that. I felt such. I didn't feel. Feel such intense rage anymore. But I'm like, how can I write this book? Like, I don't know if I'm putting the story in the book. That was a whole other series of conversations.

But I need to address this myself.

But I need to address this myself. Like, this book is completely hypocrisy. If I believe what I'm writing, I gotta do this.

Yeah.

So I did it. I had the convo with her and I call her.

Or face to face.

Face to face.

Wow.

Big glass of scotch.

You know, you're masculine motions

in extreme situations. Like, I am human.

Yeah, yeah, of course. And so still weren't really to really face it.

You can cut that out. Took some creatine.

Yeah, yeah.

And. And I said, sat down, Facebook.

Did you say, hey, I have something I want to tell you. Let's meet. Did you just meet and say, okay, now?

Well, I think it was like, no, I was. Now. I don't think I gave her a warning.

Yeah. So you just met up.

How do you. I mean, she'll ruminate. So I just was like, let's just do it.

She met up and how did.

We were relaxed, the kids were in bed.

She said, hey, listen, 10 years ago, I saw her.

How dare. You know, I said to her, I did think about how I was going to open it. And I said, what? Do you remember that phone call before I married my first marriage? And she said, yes. And she. Like, this. This knowing. But it wasn't. It wasn't defensive. It was like a knowing warmth. She's like, yes. And I've always wondered whether I said the right thing.

Oh, my God.

And I'm like, oh, my God.

Wow.

And. And then she, you know, I told her how I felt, and then she's like, wow. And she said, you know, I can totally appreciate that. But at the time, I actually did not think I was omitting anything. And this is part.

She didn't think she was omitting.

She did not. And this is part of the point. So often the thought of sharing something doesn't even occur to us. She didn't even think of it was relevant. Right.

Like, had she known that, like, oh, yeah. You can get married and have a lover later in life.

We are giving her a lot of benefit of the doubt. But it was just like so curative to talk to her about it and to tell her how I felt. And then I realized like, you know, but like mom, what were you supposed to do? It's the month before my wedding. Like you were in a tricky situation too. And like so. And then I realized it's as much my own. Well, I'm the one that didn't honor what I really want in a mate. Like, you know, so I can't.

Yeah. It's not all her fault. One thing that she could have said would have changed everything.

Yeah. But then like it's not on her

to make the decision.

Right.

It's you got to make the decision. You're 28 also. It's not like you're 17.

Exactly. I'm a grown ass woman. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

So you can't put it on her.

Exactly. Exactly.

Even if she said, you know, we have a great relationship and we have some fun on the side, you probably still would have gotten married.

I know I say I wouldn't have but I probably would have convinced myself because it's like the, it's so hard to call it off then. Right. So, yeah.

So I'm curious then what happens to your self respect or anyone's self respect when we don't express our truth to someone else? When we don't.

Oh, I love that.

Because you didn't share for a decade how you felt.

Yeah, I love that.

What happened to your self respect.

Yeah.

In that ten year season.

Yeah, yeah.

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Right. I mean I think that the stuffing of the emotion. Right. It doesn't. It's not honoring yourself. It's in disservice to yourself of it's this theme of like not like it's like avoiding yourself and not coming to terms with tricky things. And it's hard coming to terms with tricky things. But on the other end, like I had that Guinness Book of World Records Most awkward conversation with my mom and we are closer than ever. We had this amazing convo after that made during this whole thing. It was two hour conversation and things that I had felt alone in, I suddenly didn't feel alone in. For example, we talked about love and what she thinks love is and what I like. It was fascinating. And I said, mom, when I had Oliver, our firstborn, when they put him on my chest, I didn't feel like goo goo Gaga love towards him. I felt duty and responsibility and I felt curiosity. Like this is an alien human that just came out. Like it was very cognitive. But I've always felt, I had always felt a little ashamed of that because I'm like so many moms are like a different way. They're like, oh my God, I need to nurture it. Which is great. But I didn't feel that way. And she said, but I felt the same way. I didn't, you know, it came after once I now I'm like super Goo Goo Gaga mom. I kiss their feet, I kiss their bums. I'm obsessed. But it came after for me. And so it was just a wonderful conversation of. And that's what happens when you open up. You're less alone. But on the self respect issue, I also think that when you say hard things to other people. So for example, a great case here would be giving difficult feedback to someone, right?

Yes.

As an entrepreneur as like, you often have to give difficult feedback to people, I would imagine.

Is it important to give difficult feedback to people in your life?

Yes. 100. It's a gift.

It's a gift because what if people can't receive feedback?

Well, that's where being a good feedback giver is.

Even if you give it and you're like walking your tippy toes, you're like, you know, and you say five compliments first, but just one thing and they're just like heartbroken. Like yeah, you could still try to give it the best way, calmest way, empowering them, lifting them up, sandwich one little note of what they need and then add something else. And still people may not be able to receive it.

True. I guess I'm a big believer in the skill of delivering feedback. Sure, there are people that are so defensive and so insecure and so in a hard place in life that they just can't take it. But that's also part of the feedback giver's role is like, is this the right time for this person? And you have to be patient.

Yes. And if you wait and never Express.

It's too late. No, no, I know, it's great.

It could be a month later, like, oh, let's wait till a better time. There might not be a better time to share for sure. And get them to share.

Right. And I think that. So some of the ways. What you said about respect, I think is really wonderful because I think that's a great way to frame difficult feedback. I know we've heard of this feedback sandwich. You said it. I've actually done research on the feedback sandwich because I viewed it with contempt. Because I'm like, this is bs, like, the sandwich. Just. Because by the time you get to the middle, if you put compliments everywhere, people are going to forget. So I actually, with my bestie, Allison Brooks, and a colleague, we did studies on this where we are. We are varying the order of feedback to see if the sandwich. Because we were. It was like, I viewed it with contempt. We're like, screw the sandwich.

So what is the best way to give feedback based on your research?

The sandwich works. Really? We roll like tail between our legs. The most important thing, it's the end. Doesn't matter. The end. Actually, positive at the end isn't so important. It's starting with the positive. But that can mean a lot of things. I love the respect. Because you can say, look, I respect you. I owe it to you. You deserve the honest truth here. Right.

Like, I'm giving feedback because I respect you.

Exactly.

I don't give you continual feedback, then I don't care.

I'm not being kind. Kindness is wanting to see you grow, wanting to see improve 100%. And I. So I'm the official bad guy at HBS because I know I don't look like a bad guy. I don't think so. But. So I am the chair of the Academic Performance committee. So whenever MBAs get enough bad grades, for whatever reason, they come before my committee and they have to kind of make an appeal to.

So I'd have been in your office constantly. Well, first off, I would have never even gotten into Harvard, but I would have if I'd been there. I've been in your office constantly.

And so I have evolved in the way I handle these meetings because. So the people, they're upset. They're like, why did I. Why am I having to leave? Or why am I having to take X horse or whatever? And my initial approach in these meetings, they ask a question and I answer it. And I'm like, here's why. But that's such a terrible. Like, it puts it on A like defend. And here's why you. And now. And it never went over well. And now what I do is the first 20 minutes of the meeting, I don't say anything. I let them talk. And if they try to ask me why, I just. Just ask them back. Like, they need to talk. They need to tell me how they feel. They don't know they need to do this, but they need to be heard. So I hear them. And then after I've heard them, I also learn more about them and I learn more about how I may actually be able to help them. And then it's super constructive because we get into, like, what we can actually do. And so I think that sometimes when we give difficult feedback, we think we need to be more active. But, like, just. Just listening. There's so much value in people. Just they need to. They need to get it out to you. Even if you already know what they're going to say, the action of them telling you is incredibly important.

So interesting because I essentially have one. I don't know if it's rule, but before me and my wife got in a committed relationship as we're dating, not. Not marriage, but yeah, when we're kind of dating, I said, listen, I'm willing to, you know, I'm willing to commit and go all in. It was like a big decision to, like, get in another relationship. After I'd had many relationships that were challenging. I'd done a lot of healing work, and I was like, listen, I'm willing to commit and go all in. With the intention of getting married in the future, with the intention of having kids in the future, creating a family. Not just day to date.

Yeah.

But I was like, okay, we're starting to learn each other's values. I'm understanding your values. These are my values. This is what I want for my future. So it's with that context in mind. Okay, let's do this. Knowing that that is our intention. Not just we like each other, let's date to date.

Right?

I said, I have one condition. Only one. I said, I will never get mad at you for anything. Never get mad at you. If you do. If you do whatever you're gonna do, you act who you are. I feel like I know you enough now with the time that we've been dating for a while ago. I won't get mad. I might get frustrated or, like, annoyed, but I'm not going to get mad at you. I'm not going to yell at you. I'm never going to raise my voice because I'm going to choose to accept you for who you are. I may not like things you do, but I'm going to choose to accept you and create agreements around these things. And I only have one condition. The condition is you cannot get mad at me. If you're upset with me about something, you have to bring me first, come to me and talk about at least one thing you appreciate about me first. Then we can talk all day long about something that's bothering.

Disarming, isn't it?

If something is upsetting you or bothering you that you want to talk about, I will listen to you for hours. I will speak to you and disarm it. But you just have to. Because my whole life is going to be committed to finding ways to improve your life. And if you come to me by one thing that you're upset about and you don't just acknowledge at least the good I've been doing for the last three months of how I continue to add value and how I show up and how I'm pressing and how I listen and how I take us out and do experiences and provide and protect. If you just come to me with the one thing that's bothering you and you don't acknowledge at least one good thing.

Right.

I'm going to be up, then I'm going to be upset. That's the only time I'll be angry.

Yeah.

And I said, can we agree on this?

What did she say?

She said, yeah, she didn't understand it at first because like, what if I just am upset about something? I go, that doesn't work for me. And if that's the case, then I'm not the right guy for you. If all you have to do is just say, I really appreciate this and there's something that's been on my heart that I want to talk about.

Yeah.

I said, maybe I'm messed up because I'm having that request, but it's going to make me a better human. It's going to make me a better partner.

Yeah.

Because you have to understand, in my mind, all day I'm thinking about how to make your life better. And I'm acting in accordance. And I'm committing my life to you.

Yeah.

I'm eliminating every other option in the world to focus on you.

Yeah.

And to create a life that we envision together.

Yeah.

And all I ask in return is you don't get angry, upset, or raise your voice at me. Just talk to me. You can be upset, but just tell me one thing you appreciate first so that I feel Seen for the constant effort that I'm putting in versus just. I don't like you did this. I don't like you. Why'd you do this? Like, no, that doesn't work for me. If you need to do that, find another guy.

Yeah.

And all the best.

Yeah, yeah, I'll be single.

And that's okay.

Yeah.

You know, it doesn't mean it's right or wrong. It just was my request.

Yeah. Yeah, totally.

And I think it's because I had. In most of my previous relationships, not all of them, but most of them, I felt under attack constantly for who I was and under.

Underappreciated.

Underappreciated. But it was more like just under attack. You know, it's like, why are you doing this? Or why is that? Or why is this? I didn't feel understood. And then therefore, there was a frustration. Maybe it was a mind reading expectation or whatever it is, or they wanted me to be a different person. They expected me once we were together. Now I'm gonna be a different person as opposed to, this is who I am. Accept me, warts and all, or don't be with me. And that's okay. And I lacked the courage to get out of those relationships.

Yeah, that's hard.

I changed to make them happy.

You weren't you then.

I wasn't happy. And they still weren't happy. So no matter how much I changed, they still weren't happy. So I was like, I'm never gonna change for you.

Right. It sounds harsh. Sounds harsh, but it's real.

But I'm gonna improve. I'm gonna grow. I'm gonna be constantly evolving. I'm gonna constantly healing.

Change. Yeah. But I'm not going to change your specifications. Yeah. Yeah.

So accept me. I will fully accept you.

Yeah.

If something bothers me, I'll just talk to you about it.

So I'm curious, did your wife have any conditions?

No. I mean, besides, like, if we're going to be exclusively dating, the intention is we're going to be getting married.

Yeah.

And we're. We're getting kids. We're older. Yeah, exactly eight. When we.

Exactly. Yeah.

She was like, I can't waste my time being in a relationship. And so it wasn't more of, like, conditions, was more like agreements.

Yeah.

And I think I was so clear. We also started the relationship in therapy. I said, I'm not getting a committed relationship unless we start in therapy.

Love it.

She was like, I'm in.

Amazing.

So for me, I was like, I don't want to Go two years. And then it's just like we're exhausted or it doesn't work out or the first year is good.

And then I'm a huge fan of, like, proactive therapy. Everybody can use therapy. Once you're having problems, it's like, too late.

No, start with. Get. Not get all the problems out of the way, but, like, start with healing individually and creating agreements together to create less issues in the future. It doesn't mean we don't have things we need to overcome together.

Right, right.

But I feel like we have this ability to communicate based on our values and our vision and our lifestyle and understanding each other. So, anyways, I got off here, but beautiful. I'm curious. When a person. What happens to a person inside of them when they decide not to share what's really going on? They. They hide back their feelings. Like you held back your feelings for 10 years to your mom.

I know.

If you don't really say how you feel to your partner, what is happening inside of them when they. When those things start to pile up. And I know you have like this. This.

Yeah.

Demonstration. Maybe you can.

Yeah, sure. Well, okay. So the first, I think if we were to unpack this, the big picture plight of the book is I would like to make visible something that is usually invisible to us.

What's that?

And that's the dozens, hundreds, thousands of disclosure decisions we make every single day.

What's a disclosure decision? What does that mean?

Right. So I'm going to walk you through day in the life of disclosure decision making. Okay. And sometimes we decide to reveal the thing, to say the thing, but oftentimes we don't. So let's. My point, though, that we'll get to spoiler alert is that even not saying, even the things we don't say are still a choice. Okay. So what we're going to do is we're going to go day in the life. Let me get my Sharpie. Like a Sharpie. Sharpie said like a Canadian. Okay. And want to hold that?

Yes.

Okay. So, okay, here's a day in the life. You wake up in the morning and alarm goes on. You roll over to your spouse. You say, we'll start off cuddly and nice. I love you, dear. So you say that. Put that in that one. I love you.

Okay.

And then. And then you're like, oh, I feel like I slept so badly. You just think it.

You don't say it.

You don't say it.

So it goes in the unset jar.

How many times have you, like, you don't want to be whiny. You want to be a buzzkill, right? From day one. Okay. Oh, yeah, hold them off. Okay, perfect. All right. So then you go to the. You get. You both get up with your spouse, you're in the bathroom, you look at yourself in the mirror and you say, you kind of feel a little disappointed because you think I look okay. That's unsaid.

Okay.

And then you say, you think to yourself, I really. I feel older than I thought I would at this age.

You think it.

You think it. Okay, brushing your teeth. You go down, go down to the kitchen. Kids are mulling about, hubby's making lunch for the kids. Hubby says, what should I give the kids for snack? And you say, just. Just pick something. Just pick something. God, not another decision for mama.

Sure, sure.

Then you, you know, he's like, what? I'm just trying to make lunch. What are you talking about? What you didn't say is, I am on edge today because I haven't slept. I'm really nervous about my work today. I may be. Okay. It's a lot of thoughts unsaid, Unsaid I may be. Because of this, I may be a little snappy. It's not you.

Right?

That's why I'm snapping. It's not really about the snatch.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I could use a hug.

Right?

So you don't say any of that.

You're just expecting them to understand you.

Yeah. And now he's. Now he's pissed because he's like, look at this. She's so. Such an ungrateful head. Like, I'm doing this. She could just answer a question. And it's never about that. The stupid snack. Right. It's these things. Okay, so then I'm digressing. Okay, so then you get in the car, you drive your kids, you get in the car to drive your kids to school. Your dad calls, he says, oh, I'm driving. I'm on the way to the doctor's office. And you. What you think is, whoa, 70 year old dad driving has some dementia issues, possibly shouldn't be driving. I'm worried about him behind the camera. What you say is, hey, let's, let's talk later. When, when you're on the car, dad.

So you said that.

Yeah, yeah, so you said that. So then you, you get to work, your assistant says, hey, how you doing? You say, great. What you don't say is, I'm overwhelmed, I'm stressed, I'm overwhelmed, I'm stressed. So on and on. And on the day goes, right, we're mounting up, and so you can see that I could go on and on. I won't. But we don't need statistics to know that there was a heck of a lot more going into the unsaid than into the said. And. And we could even, like, be huge nerds. And look at what these are. And a lot of them are feelings, right? A lot of the things that we don't share are our feelings. And the thing is, like, this day, this is a pretty banal day. It's not an unusual day. And yet there's so many more things that go unsaid that could be said. I'm not saying that. That all of these should go in there. Not by any means. There's good reasons why we don't share. We are busy. We're being polite. We may be being strategic. There's lots of good reasons to not share. But the problem is when we go through life, we default to. We don't even think about sharing. Right. Those. I feel old. Like, you don't think of sharing that to your spouse. And imagine if you did. They may say, I do too, but, you know, but our children, like, look at our children. Part of being old is enjoying our children. And, you know, you could. You can talk to. Then you can. You feel less alone. If you tell your boss that after your boss compliments you after a big. A big presentation that you were anxious about, you say, great, thanks for the compliment. What you don't say is, you know, I was actually feeling pretty anxious before, and I'm really proud of how I did that. And that was so enjoyable. I'd love more opportunities. And then they understand. Then it's like career success, right? Like, you can see how exuberant I am about this concept. Like, of course, there are times, like the assistant. You're not going to dump to your assistant that you're overwhelmed. You don't know what to prioritize. Of course not. But it's a real problem, I think, that we don't even consider the possibility of sharing more.

But isn't there a flip side to this where people have tried to overshare and maybe it hurt them by they. They really were vulnerable. I know. As a man growing up, I remember one time in a relationship, I. I shared how I was feeling, and my girlfriend said, you look weak to me. And she said, I know, I know.

I'm not a problem.

She's like, I know I'm not supposed to think this.

Oh, good for her. Well, it's great. She shared that. Then I take it back, the cattiness.

But it's like. But she was like, she couldn't receive the emotions that I had. It's not like I was, like, wallowing on the ground emotional, but I was, like, being emotional. I was having a moment, and I was showing some emotion. And she was just like, I know I'm supposed to. Yeah, like, be okay with this, but I'm not.

Yeah.

I think a lot of men have experienced that, where they have tried to be vulnerable.

Yeah.

They've tried to maybe even cried in front of their girlfriend at one point. Whatever reason, they felt a little shift. They felt a change. They felt an energetic, a communicational change. Was like, huh? Do I really feel safe around this person? This man? If he's weak, even if it's just for a moment, can I trust him? So when does oversharing actually hurt you? When does it hurt you with your boss, where you just say, this is actually how I'm feeling. I'm really insecure and scared and nervous. And then he's like, well, can I trust you?

Right. For sure.

Do I respect you?

In that example, there's a key distinction. The example I was giving was after the talk. Right. You do not want to say this to your boss, someone who has higher status than you before the talk, you do not want to say.

They're like, all right, you're not giving the talk.

You're not going to say, I got

to go do this.

And in fact, sometimes if the boss came in before the talk was like, how you feeling? You'd say, like, great. I'm pumped. I'm excited. Sometimes it's almost like you're lying. Well, so it's what you choose to share, because anxiety and excitement are together. It's selective. Right. And we're allowed to be selective. We should be selective. We're not. We shouldn't say everything on our mind. And in fact, if you say you're anxious, then you can. It can cause you to be more anxious. Right. Like, saying is believing in. Right.

So what I'm hearing you say, then revealing. And the underrated power of oversharing is all based on context.

Oh, context is so important. Yeah. And in fact, the people that I think are the best at doing this, at knowing the line between TMI and tli, which is constantly moving, are people who have what I call a lot of disclosure, flexibility. Those are the people who go way open, super vulnerable, and vacillate between that and complete guardedness, because different situations call for entirely different things. I would also say in your example, I mean, there was so many thought bubbles as you were talking about that it was a really rich one. But sometimes the answer to over sharing or feeling like you overshared is actually to ask questions and share more. Right. To say, oh, that makes me feel really hurt that you've reacted that way. Because to me, masculinity is being confident with all of the emotions. I will always protect you. Right. Like, or saying like, tell me more, what is your. What makes you feel insecure? Like, right. So it should prompt more understanding and maybe the answers won't be good. Maybe you. And then that's informative too because you've learned that you're not on the same page and this person is.

Yeah, it wasn't directly, but it is. It was just like I know a lot of men. I wrote a book about, you know, called the Mask of Masculinity. Eight years ago, I guess it was now. And it was about unpacking my own kind of amazing inability to be vulnerable because I felt like I had to fit in in society around men, friend group with men, around intimacy and relationship with women, around how I was supposed to be as the youngest son, whatever it might be. So it was like the mask that I wore to protect myself emotionally, psychologically in the world. And the mask that men have worn to try to fit in and belong. Now women have had to wear masks

as well, different, of a different nature. And one of the studies that really struck me as I was writing the book as a boy mom is a study where with preschoolers they measured their galvanic skin response. So that's, that's how sweaty your palms are, which is a measure of how anxious you feel. And they also videotaped their faces, how much they expressed how much they revealed about what they were feeling as the children were watching scary movies. And what they found was that the people who, the children who expressed more were physiologically calmer. So their palms weren't as sweaty. So expression literally was calming for them. Bottling up on the other side, which you had touched on earlier. It's extremely bad for, for our well being in many different ways. It's really stressful. And then the kicker for me was that by the age of like second grade, the boys had became less expressive over time because they learned that keeping it in, being stoic, that's the masculine. Right. I'm curious, what for you, this mask that you felt you had, did you have certain turning points of like that really, really were step Functions in the

mask, going away and taking them off. Yeah, yeah. I mean, right around, right around 13 years ago, 29 to 30 years old, I, I accomplished what I thought I was supposed to accomplish, you know, in my 20s by building a business and making millions of dollars and, you know, having attractive girlfriends and having status and having followers and all these things. But I felt more empty, more alone, more unsure and insecure of myself. But others thought I was like figuring it out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I had these kind of like three different breakdowns in relationships that, you know, a business partnership, a girlfriend that was kind of like off and on and emotional and break up and get back together, and then a friendship that was like all happening with the same season, like few months. All these relationships were broke, breaking down. And I was originally like, what is wrong with each one of these people? But I was the common denominator. So I had a moment to reflect and I was just like, oh man, there's something wrong with me because I'm at the root, I'm the common denominator of all these broken relationships. I can't point the finger at everyone. Something is happening where I don't have the emotional skills or I don't have the tools, I'm not creating boundaries or I'm out of alignment with something. And that became a journey of going through as much emotional intelligence training workshops, therapies, coaching for the last 13 years as possible. And that's when I launched the show. I launched the show 13 years ago because I was like, okay, I've accomplished success, but I don't have greatness in my life. Like, I've accomplished things, but I don't feel great, I don't feel good. So what's wrong with me? Let me go ask the experts. Let me humble myself and stop being a cocky twenty something year old thinking I've got it figured out. And let me humble myself and bring in the true leaders of the world, people with wisdom, experience, research, like yourself, and say, teach me. And through learning, let me share with others and try to help others who are going through a simpler struggle around personal challenges, finance, health, relationships, whatever it might be. So the last 13 years has been a dynamic of me being the guinea pig of struggle and saying, all right, I'm going to try to be the best version of myself that I can be. I'm going to try to draw my wisest version of my future self to me now.

And being a lifelong learner, I think is a really healthy mindset. Right.

Constantly. And even at 40, I'll be 43 in a couple months. And even though I feel like, man, I have a ton of wisdom from the last 13 years or my whole life so far, but it's like, man, I have so much more, deeper that I can go to where I can impact people in a greater capacity individually. Group settings, mass audience settings. There's so much more that I can uncover within myself, and yet I can keep it extremely simple at the same time. I don't have to, like, keep going deeper and deeper always. It's like I can integrate the wisdom and then just impact.

Yeah.

And serve.

Yeah.

Serve my dreams and my highest calling and serve the people around me the best of my ability.

Yeah.

And it doesn't mean I'm always gonna be perfect and I'll fall from grace and I'll, you know, fall back into old childhood patterns at times, but you'll recognize noticing it, catching it, and replacing it with a wiser verse version of myself. And I think that's what doing this show and reading books and doing interviews continually reminds me of the things I already know. Usually I don't learn all these new things that I've never heard of. It's more like, oh, this research is backing what I know. So let me go farther into this. That's a lot what it is. But I think the idea of there's a couple things that I'm hearing from you so far that could benefit people. One, if you're expecting someone to know what you're thinking or feeling just because you're feeling it, you're going to have a bad or challenging relationship and you're going to be frustrated in that relationship. If you're expecting someone to read your mind, even if you show them a little of, like, disgust in the moment of like, I've got some frustration in my life, they should just know that is like. And one of the things that my wife Martha has done really well, she knows that I can't be a mind reader. And I'm like, if something is going on, tell me right away. Don't wait till later in the day. Don't wait till midnight. We're in the middle of the bed, about to sleep. Like, tell me earlier.

Yeah. Being a good elicitor is important too. Yeah. Yeah.

Let me serve you better.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? Just communicate a little bit and I can serve you higher. But if we're waiting till 1am to like, let some dump something on me.

Yeah.

When I am not have the brain function, it's going to be exhausting. For both of us.

Yeah.

So trying to be a mind reader is an impossible job. So communicate more, even just communicate a little bit, will go a long way. And this power of oversharing with context.

Yes. Knowing context is huge.

Who you're speaking to, when the timing is. Is what I'm hearing is also important.

And I think there's also things that we tend to under share. And I would say the number one thing we tend to under share our feelings. And for lots of reasons. But if I. To try to like people who are skeptical, the feelings, feelings and feelings. Like I'm a skeptic. I was born skeptical. So there's been studies that have looked at what people regret in life. And one of the studies was led by a colleague of mine at Cornell, Tom Gilovich, who's as brilliant as he is warm. And he discovered, he looked at what are the things that people regret in life? Do they regret the things they do or do they regret the things they did not do? And it turns out that it's something like 76% of regrets on average are things you didn't do.

Really.

And so unsaid, undersharing things you didn't do. And then. Okay, so clincher. On top of that, then there's. I encountered this, a book by a palliative care nurse by the name of Bronnie Ware. She wrote a book.

I've had her on the show.

Oh, my gosh.

Amazing. Five regrets in the book.

Yes. Okay, so four out of five of them are things you didn't do. Number three. I wish I had shared my feelings more.

Wow.

Right? Like, if that doesn't convince you and you can think about it, like. So I was just talking to the My dear hairstylist and she, she. We were talking about this. She said, you know, we had a PTA meeting, which is like, good, pretty functional. And I decided, because I'd read your book, I decided I was going to share. It wasn't going very well, this meeting. And so I decided to share my feelings. I decided to say I feel frustrated. And she said it was a complete game changer. And one of the re. And suddenly people were like, I feel frustrated too, and how do we. So they, they. It was relatable. Everyone was feeling the same thing or in variants of it. So it, it, it makes it so much more compelling. Then another example, which I didn't do this strategically, but showing feeling. Showing feelings is so much more compelling. You. You become more persuasive when you do something with feeling, when you show the feeling and one example, this was fairly early on when I was dating my husband, my second, my now husband. And we were at this beautiful resort in the Caribbean and there was. I'm a terrible sleeper. I hate that. But I'm just a really, really bad sleeper. And it was, you know, the first night in paradise and it was like I didn't sleep at all. There was like a party above us. It was hell. Well, poor dirty butt eggs. It was not good. And so then the next morning. So he's a little non confrontational. I can be confrontational when I care a lot. And so I'm like, this is not right. The money we paid. So I go to the front desk and I start saying. And then I couldn't contain my feelings. So they were like, no, no, nothing we can do. And then I started crying. Not strategically, because I really, like, I was trying to not cry, but then they shifted entirely and they put us in the most beautiful ocean, like on the water. Ocean cott. I know it feels like I wasn't trying to be manipulative, but the lesson to me was like, I don't need to be so ashamed of crying. Like crying in the right time and place, it can be a high risk maneuver, but it also is really compelling information because you really care. Right.

It's not just you're like frustrated and upset.

Yeah.

It's like you really were sad.

It's a true signal. Right. It's easy to just complain, but this is a costly signal.

So your people complain all the time probably.

Right?

Yeah.

Right. And they're like, oh, no, she really, really means it. So. But yeah. So sharing your feelings is something that we, we. We chronically under Share. Yeah.

Yeah. And there's a price to not sharing your true feelings.

Exactly. There are missed opportunities. There's friendships that never blossom. There's romances that never spark. There's colleagues that never quite trust you.

What's one question you could ask your intimate partner that would get them to share what they truly feel if they've been blocking or hiding those emotions for a long time?

That's a great question. I think what I would do, I mean, there's lots of things one could do, but there is a very powerful human tendency. I might even say instinct. I don't use that term lightly, but you can actually very make a very quite compelling evolutionary case to this. There's an instinct to reciprocate. And so if your partner is more reserved, like my husband, he's a recovering undershare, but I'm an oversharer I've had my moments of like, so we balance each other out, but reciprocity. So if you, if you really. Instead of, like, trying to get the right question, if you share something proactively, you say, I feel, you know, the day we got married, I felt so happy. But I also felt, you know, uncertainty about the future and what our family life and where we'd live. Like, if you share something vulnerable, then it's so natural, especially when you're in a loving relationship. Reciprocation is like, it feels weird not to do it. And so that's, that's. Instead of trying to get the perfect question, that's something I might try.

Lead with vulnerability, lead with sharing, lead with something that's powerful.

Yeah.

Well, I want people to check out your book. It's called Revealing the Underrated Power of Over Sharing. And again, I just really believe, like, relationships is the key to having a happy life. And powerful relationships come from the ability to communicate how you feel, obviously in the right context. And it doesn't mean you cry all day long if you're sad. But it's like learning how to communicate and connecting and learning how to receive. Someone's oversharing is what where the fruit of life is, because it's all about relationships. And if you struggle in relationships, you're going to struggle in your life life. And this is going to allow you to create more tools to having a powerful relationship. So the book's called Revealing the Underrated Power of Oversharing. And people can check your website out proflesleyjohn.com or the same on Instagram and LinkedIn and social media. Prof. Leslie John over there as well. I've got a couple final questions for you.

Lightning round.

Yeah, exactly. This is called the Three Truths. So a hypothetical scenario. Imagine you get to live as long as you want, and you get to do all the work that you love and all the research you love, and you get to have the experiences you imagine with your family and your kids and all these different things. But for whatever reason, on your last day, you have to take all of your work with you, and we don't have access to your books, your interviews, your content anymore. But you get to leave behind one final message, and I call it the Three Truths. What would be those three things? Those three messages, Three truths you would leave behind from all the work and the research and the life lessons that you have.

Okay. I would say one is that we live in fear of tmi, which we should not, because the bigger problem is tli Too little information. The second is that silence is a choice. And once you start thinking about silence as a choice, it will really open up your space because you will realize how much you can share because you'll realize how much you leave unsaid. And third, I would say revealing wisely is a skill and it's a skill that we can all get better at. And like any skill, it requires practice and iteration. So I would encourage people to try to stretch themselves a little bit more. And that's also on a meta level, what I'm doing in the book. Right. Like how can you write a book about revealing and not reveal?

Yeah.

So, you know, hopefully I got it mostly right. But it's a. But you have to forgive yourself if you. That's part of learning and experimentation.

Yeah. It's an ongoing dance.

Yeah.

That's cool. Well, Leslie, I appreciate and acknowledge you for one revealing during this because I think academics can sometimes hold back and

we get gnarled in the science.

It's all research and science and it's not going into our own personal life as well. So I'll really nod you for kind of revealing that about your mom and kind of having this like underlying resentment for a decade plus. But then this work making you face it and it's created a stronger relationship with your mom, it sounds like for sure. And so I acknowledge you for doing the healing work for yourself while you're trying to create research and academic and

raise two crazy boys.

Exactly. But it's hard to do if you're a recovering non sharer.

Yeah. I also realized as I was writing it that I call myself an oversharer. But then I thought, but it's more performative over sharing. Like I like telling self deprecating funny stories about myself, but when it really comes to sharing deep feelings, do I? Yeah.

Yeah. Well, we keep working on it. This is the starting point.

I'm a lifelong education case.

Final question, Leslie. What's your definition of greatness?

It's feeling so comfortable in your own skin and knowing yourself so much that you can get the things in life that you care about and that your your loved ones care about.

There you go. That's it. Thanks for being here. Appreciate you.

Thank you so much.

Powerful.

We have never expected more from romantic love than we do today. Seriously. We want literally one person to give us what usually an entire village used to provide. We've never been more free and we've never been more alone.

She's been called the goddess of love

and connection with two books and her wildly popular podcast. Where should we begin?