10 Ways To Spot & Deal With A NARCISSIST | Dr. Ramani Durvasula & Lewis Howes

You're dealing with a narcissist, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. So, with the narcissism, we have to talk about sort of the top of the line behaviors and those are, let's view narcissism as almost like this inner core, okay? And the inner core of narcissism is this variable empathy, usually a lack of empathy, entitlement, grandiosity, validation seeking, A sense of envy for other people or the assumption that other people envy them. The inability to regulate their anger when they're frustrated, disappointed, or stressed. A sense of shame. So if anyone points out a flaw in them, they tend to react with rage. A reactive sensitivity to criticism. So if anyone points out anything, they come at them, blame shifting and responsibility shifting. So they blame other people for what is actually their responsibility. are very controlling, very egocentric, everything is about them, everything is self-serving, insecure, deeply insecure, lots of feelings of inadequacy, but those are all sort of pushed down. All of these things I'm talking about, the entitlement and all the rest of it, it's like a suit of armor that protects that inner core of inadequacy so nobody ever sees it. If I'm walking around telling you I'm all that, well then I can't be inadequate, right? And if I got a big fancy car and a big fancy house and a big fancy person on my arm, Then I'm all that, right? So with narcissism, we have to talk about sort of the top of the line behaviors. And those are presentations, charm, charisma, confidence, curiosity. And they also-- Can you have those.

Things and not be narcissistic? You can't. Because I'm a very curious person. I care, you know, I'm like-- so.

Here'S where it gets interesting, right? Is you can be curious and-- When you can find an empathic, charismatic person, behold them. They are the unicorns of the human being. Someone who is confident and charismatic. When I meet the confident, charismatic, empathic, kind, respectful, humble person, I literally am like, okay, everyone. And I can tell you it doesn't happen often. And I'm usually like, I look googly eyes, 'cause I'm thinking, and then of course I'm poking at it. I'm like, no, no, no, I'm gonna find out what's wrong with it. Every so often I find it. It hasn't happened often. It hasn't happened often. But here's the thing, the charm, the charisma, the confidence, the curiosity, there's also comfort that they also offer. It's like they'll often feel like they're rescuers and I can take care of it all. They'll be very generous.

Up front.

It's all a front game, right? So what happens then? The curtain comes down across all your common sense and you miss the little things. You're like, this is amazing.

Yeah.

And people, and if you, either you miss the lack of empathy and the anger and the rage and all the other stuff, or you justify it.

You just, well, yeah.

Yeah, he's got a big job, or she's really stressed, or she doesn't mean that, or that's just their culture. I was reading an article by a linguist recently, and the linguist was talking about how people talk over each other in certain cultures, right? And they were using that as a way to rationalize interrupting. And there's interrupting and there's interrupting. Narcissistic interrupting is not only, it's contemptuous interrupting.

What's that mean, like dismissive interrupting?

It's dismissive like, okay, all right, you're talking and then I not only cut.

In, but it's basically like, your point of view doesn't matter or yeah, you're an idiot. I know what's really, yeah. Okay, so you share some of these.

Signs of malignant narcissism. No, that's okay, so let's go back to the core. So we got the core of lack of empathy, all that stuff I talked about. The title man, yes. Now, the problem with narcissism is there's subtypes.

Oh my gosh.

Not all narcissists are created. We really do need a whiteboard nail. Like I'd be writing notes up there because what we have then is the classical narcissist, the sort of 57 Chevy of narcissism is the grandiose narcissist. It is the big charming, confident, I'm the one, I'm the best. no insight, very little empathy, kind of, but very like big sales person-y, that's the grandiose narcissist. But then when we talk about the malignant narcissist, again, we have all that stuff, lack of empathy and all that other stuff, but they are more menacing, they are more controlling, they're a little bit more scary, they're sadistic, they're paranoid.

What if they have both of those things?

Usually they can, they can. And that's a horrific combination because then that person's real charming on the front end and then once you cross the threshold and walk all the way in with them, now you're dealing with their malignant, manipulative, scary, and when we see controlling, when we see manipulative narcissist, manipulative, I'm sorry, malignant narcissism, We're seeing people who are often, they're more likely to be aggressive, to be violent, to be abusive, to isolate people from ever being able to get help, from being abusive in the workplace. We hear these big, awful workplace abuse stories, especially a lot in the MeToo era. A lot of those folks are malignant narcissists. Right.

So what happens if you're with a narcissist? Maybe it's been a year, you've been dating someone, or your boss didn't seem like it at the beginning, but then you're figuring out, oh, Check, check, check. They've got a lot of these things. But the first six months seemed great or it seemed like it was amazing. But now we're seeing the curtain pull back and some of these things are coming out and we're not feeling good about the relationship we're in. Whether it's a working relationship, a friendship, an intimate relationship, we've spotted it. What I'm hearing you say is there's really no way to change a narcissist. So trying to change them is not gonna happen. That's a fool's there. So doesn't mean we just pretty much have to rip the cord and rip the band-aid and get out?

Or how does it navigate that? How do we navigate that? It's not that simple. We can't walk away from all relationships. People can't just quit their jobs. Let's say a person starts figuring this out five years in a relationship and they're married and they have children. What if it's their family of origin? They're like, I've done my homework and this is actually my parent or my sibling. People say, well, I don't know that I'm willing to cut off from my entire family. So I'm not going to sit here and tell people that, oh, you just got to always go. In fact, my first book on the topic of narcissism is called Should I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist. And I wrote it from that point of view because it's too simplistic to say, well, get up and go. Like you said, rip off the Band-Aid. So if you're, and neither path is easy, but in an ideal world, I will be frank with you. And there's actually an interesting group in Israel that's gathered some data on this, on narcissistic abuse, and they've found that the thing that works best in dealing with a narcissistic relationship that resulted in the best outcomes was going no contact, like having no contact with them. Completely blocking, cutting off. And because it's almost like a toxin, right? If there's a toxic gas, the best way to feel better is to- Eliminate. Have no more toxins.

You have a little bit, you're just going to be feeling a little bit of pain consistently.

It's going to be holding on to it. Correct. But a lot of people don't have that. So the biggest, if you're gonna have to stay in this relationship, you have to engage in something that I and others have called radical acceptance. This is never gonna change.

This is who they are.

This is who they are. This is it. So, and then I tell people, I have something called the deep technique that I talk about. The deep technique is when I tell people, if you're dealing with a narcissist, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain. Don't personalize. So deep, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. And so when they're coming at you, and if you can remember, you really are keeping it tight. It's a lot of, it's like you're in a deposition. Yes? No? Okay, sounds good. Sure. Now, man. Narcissists don't like that.

Because they're going to keep coming and.

Digging and digging and digging. They're going to bait you. They're going to bait you and they, when I tell you, when they bait you, they don't play.

They go for everything.

They go for everything that's going to make something else. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up.

They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up.

They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up And over 450 studies they examined and found really strong effects that narcissism is consistently associated with aggression. It's a very, it's, this is not, there's nothing soft about this. This is about aggression. They want the fight. They are always a better fighter. Oh my gosh. And they want the fight, so they bait you. You've got to be made a steal. Don't defend, don't engage, don't explain.

Don't be crazy.

To not get into the fight. Every relationship with a narcissist is a threesome. You just don't know it. Because they always need that third person in the relationship, whether it's someone gave me the number, or someone's noticing me.

This person DM me, or this person is exactly...

They're always trying to, and they're always trying to create that sense of intrigue, or the idea that somebody is more into them, or they're, or again, it's often them creating the jealousy, or they'd be incredibly jealous of their partners. There's a difference between jealousy and pathological jealousy. There's two different things. Okay, so jealousy is normal. Normal. We are a actually we're a pair bonded species, we human beings. We are, we liked, we pretty much are about generally normatively have sex with one person. People are like, no, that person cheated on me. Said, yeah, they were only having sex with them. They weren't having sex with you. They were still sexually monogamous.

With one person.

They weren't banging you. They were banging someone else. You were on paper in a relationship with them, you went to the same home. but their sex was with someone else. Okay? But we tend to be pair bonded. We tend to be monogamous. All right? So jealousy is a threat to that. Think of it Darwinianly.

Right?

If, if I'm in a, if I'm in a relationship and a threat comes in, right? Normal jealousy is that sort of evolutionary jealousy. Right? I'm with a person. If somebody is, comes in as a threat to that relationship, I've lost the resources and support for our Offspring. Right? That's all that Darwinian stuff. Reproduction. Pathological jealousy. logical jealousy, though. That starts getting into the realm of things like paranoia and. Oh, my gosh. And negative mood states and all that. Like, jealousy doesn't feel good, but it, I always, when I've worked with couples, they're like, I'm jealous. I'm like, that's good. That means you still got a skin in the game. Like, because when people, I've been with people, worked with couples and, or worked with individuals, and they'll say, I'm not even jealous when people notice my husband.

I kind of feel sad because I'm like, yeah, this thing, this thing's kind of. Oh, gotcha.

Kind of done. I feel like, yeah, I don't feel jealous.

I feel like I trust the person I'm with.

Yeah, but that's what we're talking about, pathological jealousy, right? So I think of my partner, ironically on my drive here, he was talking about something and about this woman who I knew we were gonna have to see, who had hit on him. And this dude is so loyal, it levels it to a whole new level. And I remember thinking in the driver, I'm like, I got that little funny thing in my tummy. I'm like, huh, he doesn't even live in this country. And so I'm thinking, That's, and I was like, that's good. That's good that I'm still feeling like, I still have a dog in the fight.

But it doesn't mean you're like, I, but I'm letting it stress you out.

And like talking to them about it.

Only because we're talking about it. Yeah, of course, yeah.

And so the, what did you say with the, paranoid? Paranoid, the pathological jealousy. Pathological jealousy. Yeah, that's a narcissist. That's more of an, it's more paranoid.

It'S more antagonistic, it's more about, you, must be doing something. You're doing so it's accusatory, it's almost delusional. Oh my gosh. Okay. What would you say again are the main causes, what are the main things that happen to cause someone to become a narcissist? Is it all trauma based?

It's no, it's partly trauma. It's also that temperament, it is chaos in the early environment. It's lack of secure attachment. It's overvaluation of the child. Basically the child can do no wrong and they're so wonderful. I mean it's interesting We're about to see something fascinating happen and I don't know how it's gonna go down. We're about to see, 'cause what? Facebook's coming up on 20 years soon, right? We're about to see the first generation of kids who are born into the Facebook world, where every moment being documented and shared and since they've been born. Since they were born. This is the first time we're gonna be seeing this. So I bless the people out there who are gonna start collecting this data because we now have, you know, you're gonna see what happens if you were, 'cause I had kids way before this. So I did not, the only people saw their pictures were the people I actually put them in an envelope. mail the picture kind of thing.

Or came over to house and said.

Look at the actual baby. But this is a whole new game for kids who basically were accessories to their parents' lives. Like, look at my child this, look at my child this, look at my child this. Every day there's a new picture.

So do you think it's okay to share some of your family life on social media and some of your children's special moments? Or do you think we should be protecting our kids at all costs and never show their face, never show anything until they're Whatever time.

It's a super interesting area. There's some actually really interesting thinking and writing about this, which is these children aren't consenting to this. Are these children consenting to you showing them have a meltdown? Or we see all these silly child videos and sometimes I kind of feel a little sadness because these things stay evergreen. They didn't agree to that. And as much as we say, oh no, it's so cute, they didn't consent. It's a vulnerability, right? So there's some, I know some folks in the developmental sphere of psychology saying.

Oh, this may not be entirely cool. Yeah, what happens when When the kid's 23 and they start going back and seeing all these like things that their mom or dad posted and they're like, Huh, that's not really cool. I wish you wouldn't have done that to me.

But it goes beyond that because even when the child is young, there's this sense of things are constantly being done to them without them agreeing to it.

Posing and put these clothes on and do this and let's post you.

In a public way. And then the child also gets this sense of their utility, their importance to their parents is their social media persona. You look so pretty in your dress. You look so cute in your costume. Like you're wondering, are you costuming your child for Halloween for you or for them?

Or for the validation online?

Exactly. For the likes and the engagement. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

And that's tough because I have friends who never show their kids stuff and then I have friends who do show their kids and man it's just like, yeah how do we How do we navigate that conversation?

And how do we-- I think we're building this airplane in the sky.

Oh, man.

And so the challenge becomes then that I would say it's a balancing act between parents talking to each other, both parents, but also I think there's a larger issue of how much is the child feeling that they're valued, validated for being the kid who poses in social media, right? Because what does every child want? They want their parents' love.

Love and attention.

All they want is their parents' love and attention. So, if they start to recognize that if I'm looking good on social media and mommy's getting validated, then they'll put on the weird thing they want her to wear or do the thing that she wants them to do. But what's not happening is that their interest, what they value, may not be cultivated or everything's a photo op. It's as though the child feels that they're constantly on display versus just having a moment where they're being present and mindful and it doesn't all have to be documented. I'm going to be frank with you, as a psychologist, I'm concerned about when.

These chickens come home to roost and they're going to. Let's say there are parents that are posting about their kids online. Maybe they have a small following, maybe.

It'S to a private group of their friends and family.

Is it kind of a different game? Or is it the ones that have a bigger following? If they were going to be posting and they have a bigger following, I'd say not to their friends and family. What would be appropriate that you think psychologically in a healthy manner to be able to talk about your family and your kids? Is there a healthy way psychologically that's going to, you know, I think not mess them up or, you know.

Being present with your children emotionally, being aware of their needs of not turning them into a performing pony in your circus. Do you know, I mean, again, I say this as the mom of two kids. right? And there are moments when you think, well, this is the day we're going to take such and such picture. Somebody's sick, someone's crying, someone has torn their dress, someone is this. And if you get angry at them because they've ruined your finely laid plans, that child then starts getting that conditional sense of, I'm only about this person's finally laid plans. Listen, we all do it. We all screw up. We all do that conditionality to our kids. It's almost impossible to not, it's how quickly we catch ourselves and say, That's not what they want. This is not, this is, we're going to Disneyland because they want to go to Disneyland. We're going to the parks. They want to go to the park. Not because what a great day for a photo op. Like, I've been on vacation and I've watched families like practically, I mean literally screaming, We need this life! I've got our glass mask. No way. And I'm like, oh my God. Pay attention. Look here. Let them just splash and be sandy and muddy. They're at the beach. And it's that kind of obsessive zeal because all of that social comparison of people wanting to put out the false self and what is narcissism? We're perfect.

Narcissism is the false self. It's a mask.

It's always a mask because it's the mask of what they think the world wants. How the world wants them to look, which is why more and more people are looking the same. They're getting the same cosmetic procedures, they have the same bodies, they're driving the same cars. They're really sort of shills for this sort of artificial mask. That's a narcissist's game.

Narcissism is the opposite of authenticity. It's so interesting because four years ago I wrote a book called the Mask of Masculinity, which is about- and I interviewed a lot of psychologists and experts on these kind of personality traits and these masks that men wear. And I wrote about it because I realized I was wearing a mask, a couple of different masks, for many different years of my life to protect myself, to try to fit in, to try to be liked and loved by society. One of them being the athlete mask. It's like I always had to win at all costs. I needed to be number one. And if I ever lost or got second, then no one would ever love me. So at all costs, I was training and developing myself to be the best athlete I could be. And I was a horrible loser. I was a sore loser. I couldn't handle it. I would get angry. I would be moody. I would be frustrated and I'm not good enough. I'd beat myself up. and train obsessively until I got better, until I could make sure that, you know, I could put myself in a better position athletically. And there's these different masks that men wear. And I realized that it's all about trying to fit in. It was all about men trying to fit in and trying to belong, but it's not the authentic self.

Correct. And that, I mean, that's, maybe we'll have a different day. I'll come in and talk to you about the authentic self, 'cause it's such a big conversation. When we look at the work of Carl Rogers, the humanistic psychologist, and other humanists like Abraham Maslow, so these were the big players in that humanistic universe. This idea of authenticity and self-actualization, so if you were to view human growth as a mountain, self-actualization is the summit. It's the top. In my lifetime, I've met five self-actualized people, and it was unforgettable. And they were always older. I think it's hard to self-actualize when you're younger. Deeply authentic. I mean, like, you did feel like you were in the face of greatness with them. But some from ordinary. Like, one was a man who was an auto mechanic in Johannesburg. And I was like, I am in the presence of absolute greatness right now.

What did that feel like?

It was like absolute serenity. I felt at one with him, at one with the situation. I felt more calmed down. I felt like I could keep listening to him. This was a man with almost no education who, again, he fixed cars in Johannesburg and actually in a pretty, not in the nicest of surroundings. And he was joy, like he was just human joy. And it's not because he was laughing, but he was so proud of what and anyone looking at it, like there's not a lot happening here, but it was this genuine authentic, like, please come into my, look at my beautiful space. This is my life. and the other person I met who was same thing, Joy, and that man, the Johannesburg man I'm still not in touch with, but this other man I am, and he is somebody who had a moment in his life and he decided to devote his life to children and families living in poverty in India. And I worked with a school he was working with in India, and I remember sitting with him, we were kind of actually kind of sitting next to an open sewer, and it smelled like an open sewer. He's just chilling. He's just chilling and I'm like, I could have sat there all day. And it was hot and there were flies. It was uncomfortable and he was magnificent. And it wasn't just, the mechanic guy wasn't out there saving the world. He was fixing cars. This guy happened to be doing something for a very small community in this village in India, right? In service. He was in service, the other one was not. But there was such a congruence between who they were as human beings and how they conducted themselves and how they were in the world. There was no sense of someone has more, I want what they have, someone's got it better, why is that happening? How come they got their turn first? And I remember when I think about them, I have the photograph of the gentleman from Johannesburg, this other man I'm still in touch with, and I need that to sort of try to get myself recalibrated to my center. But again, the opposite of narcissism. No mask whatsoever. They were just in themselves.

What a life.

Like, what a gorgeous life.

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Watch how they respond to stress or frustration. If you only had one thing you can do, it's that. Because that's the test, right? Do they start, do they become really dysregulated, impulsive, say really awful things and then, you know, I was just really stressed out, you know, because if they did it there, they're always going to do that because they're on their best behavior in this early dating relationship.

They'll do it worse in the future.

You know, how are they handling themselves in a, in a traffic jam? How do they handle themselves when you get to the restaurant and they say, oh, we've lost your reservation, you know, because you really are looking for the person who says, you know what? You up for a fast food? Because there's a place across the street. And you know what? It could be the dinner where you fall in love with that person over your, you know, over your cheeseburger. Exactly. And so, but if that person makes a, Do you know who I am? Oh, let me tell you, Yelp review, blah, blah, blah. You're gonna be sorry, blah, blah, blah. No, I mean, and I think those situations manifest pretty early on. And the trick is because everything else is sort of new and sparkly and fun, People want to say, oh, they just had a bad day.

They have bad days all the time.

I would say that's your, especially that early in the game, that's your first few months. A runaway kind of like, kind of, or not even runaway to say, just sort of slowly start distancing. Some people need to see two of those events. Okay. So great. There's your, you'll get your second soon enough. And so I would say that's a really, that's a big one. I think other things you want to look at are things like are around equity, equitability, and balance in the relationship. How often are you knocking yourself out for them? So in other words, you're shaping your schedule to them, you're shaping your preferences to them, you're giving up things for them, and yet they still make it sound like you give up maybe, I don't know, you're invited to an old friend's birthday party, it's gonna be a girls night out, and they doubt your commitment like, oh, really it's your instead of me, and then you end up canceling on the friends and you go out with them and they'll say, isn't this so much more fun? So they make it seem like your sacrifice was actually good for you. That's something else you could say early in the game. Especially narcissistic people do tend to like to control the narrative. So they will, there will be some isolating happening. If you feel that you're not, you don't feel comfortable saying, I'm going to go see my friends or, I want to spend time alone with my sister or something like that. And they pathologize that, especially when it's early. This is sort of a process for you. And if they're trying to annex all of your time, that's a sign too that you need to pay attention to.

If they're trying to take you from your friends and family.

But sometimes it's not even that obvious. It's more of a, why can't I come? Or they doubt your commitment. And so it's not as like, you're not seeing your friends. It's, you know, you spend a lot of time with your friends. Like, you know, maybe this just isn't the right time in your life for a relationship. I get that. I got that. So they play that game. And then you're thinking, oh, I'm kind of really into this person. But then they get angry at you. No, they get angry at you because they doubt your commitment. And because people want to prove their commitment, right? And they know I'm really committed to this. Okay, you know, it just, I find it interesting that on a Saturday night, that's what you chose.

Even though you've told them weeks ago.

And then you give in.

So look out for those two things. It's interesting because every time you say something like this, I'm reminded of the past of like, okay, all these stressful situations. But with Martha, I talk a lot about Martha on the show because she's been amazing for me. But with Martha, we had an experience we went on a trip within the first month of kind of knowing each other and dating. And we were supposed to go to Vegas and we had flights booked but for whatever reason, all the flights that day got canceled and we couldn't get there for the event. We were going to see an event until the next morning on the flight and we were gonna miss it. And so I'm coming to her kind of bringing a little bit of this PTSD remnants of like, hope she's gonna be okay, is she gonna be upset? The flight's this, and I bring in and say, hey, the flights are not, you know, happening. We could try to take a later flight, but we may not make it in time for the event. What do you want to do? Let's just drive.

Yeah, I was gonna say, if this girl's got it going on, she would always drive.

Oh, it's no worries. Like, let's just drive. I'm so used to people being like, well, I need first class and I needed this, and, you know, this kind of like, don't you know who I am? Type of mentality. She was like, let's just. you want to drive? Kind of like fun with it. And I was like, you sure you're okay with that? And she's like, yeah, let's go. And I was like, cool, let's jump. So we jumped, we just grabbed our bags, we packed, we went in and we drew and it had the most incredible five hour drive. There was traffic and it was on a Friday night and it was like whatever, stressful, but we had so much fun. I was like, this girl's got something. Yeah.

She's got something going on. And it's, and I think when you travel with someone, you can see these stressful experiences. Yes, yes, I do agree that if you travel with someone, you can see a lot. And that's what I'm saying. that stress can come out there too. But I do think it's almost a way to create a living lab and set up a trip in the first three months of the relationship. It doesn't have to be elaborate. It could be something as quick as a weekend trip. It could be a weekend trip. It doesn't have to be like two weeks somewhere. Watch how they do. Because I will tell you that's the test. Somebody who can be chill while they travel, done. That's one of, it's almost like a final exam. Really, before you get committed. Yeah. Before you exclusively commit. And again, for people to know, this doesn't mean you have to have air tickets in this. it could really be like a road trip, it could be a camping trip, it could be any number of things, but like a few days where it's really just you and them and there's, because when you travel inevitably it's something, right? And to watch how you manage that, it's a great test because if it's a narcissistic person, if everything isn't just so perfect and the thing is you've got to watch how they gaslight, try to gaslight it away. If you start getting a little leery on this is not okay, they're going to make it into, Don't you understand? I wanted to make it perfect for you, okay? I just wanted it to be a great trip. You know, and so, because if you might be pushing back and saying, you know, the way you were acting under stressor, I just was trying to make it right for you and now you're feeling so guilty because they were trying to make it right for you. So, I will tell folks this. If you're noticing there's some of those early patterns and you decide to distance from this relationship because it feels like there's some red flags, Don't tell them the why. Really? Yeah, this ain't your teacher, their life coach. You're trying to get out of this relationship because if you tell them the why, they're gonna gaslight you. They're gonna say, well, I was stressed.

I was stressed. I was trying to do something nice for you.

You're being unappreciative. You're unappreciative. Exactly. You're sensing a red flag. You can make it about yourself and say, yeah, you know, whatever your reasons are, I think work's getting to be a lot for me, or maybe this isn't the right time for me to have a relationship. And people say, well, Dr. Ramani, isn't that a missed opportunity? No, they ain't listening to you. So, if you say to them, this is why it'll be Gaslight City and you're going to stay in it. Because I think people feel like, well, I need to tell them and maybe they'll improve. They're not going to improve. That's the radical exercise.

What about if someone feels just stuck in a relationship? Maybe there's narcissistic tendencies, maybe not, but they feel stuck in a relationship. What's a good conversation that someone should have with their partner to evaluate where it's at and how they can get unstuck? Whether there's narcissism or not, what's your opinions on that?

I mean, it's a different scenario, right? Because I think in a narcissistic relationship, you're working for survival, right? So you may not even, I have to tell you, people in narcissistic relationships may not initially feel stuck. They may be like, okay, it's like the MacGyver of relationship situations. Like, what kind of duct tape do I need to use to fix this thing? Right? So you're doing, doing, doing. Where people feel stuck in a narcissistic relationship is when they get in too deep, share a place, kids, marriage. That's where the stuckness happens because I think by and large, and then honestly, there's one big interesting thing with narcissistic relationships is the fear that the narcissists are going to change for the next person. Because there's a lot of stuff they like about that person. They're really attracted to them. They have great sex with them. They're charismatic. They have shared interests. People love them. They've got a really amazing career, job status, whatever. Whatever it may be, there's a lot of magnetic qualities. And so that idea that the new person is going to get Mr. Magnetic is actually really overwhelming. but in a sense of stuckness, it's an interesting issue. And it's something I've encountered even with couples I've done therapy with. And it's, you know, listen, there is the, you know, there's sort of the kind of the standard advice around like, how do you start dating again in this relationship? How do you keep that piece of it alive? How do you keep giving it some level of priority status? How do you make sure you do communicate, make the time. Part of that is, I mean, mindfulness has such an important role in human relationships, not just intimate relationships, all relationships. Everybody's talking about mindfulness, mindfulness, mindfulness. It means paying attention to what's in front of you. And that means that it can be the littlest things about, oh my gosh, that's right. He had an appointment. He had a meeting at two. You text him at three, like, Hey, how did that meeting go? I was just thinking of you. That stuff becomes the stuff of the relationship. And then saying, Hey, you had a tough one today. Let's cook this, go here, pop the champagne. It's that idea that someone's noticing you. So, mindfulness can be one piece of the stuckness. The other is, do you have shared vision? I mean, we talk about this in the workplace all the time, but is that there? Because it's, and that doesn't even mean there's something wrong with someone. if they don't have shared vision. But sometimes if you don't have that, that can contribute to the stuckness because you're not working towards a common goal. If you have a company and one person's like, I want to sell lots of hand lotion, and the other person's like, I really envision us as being a salsa company, you're going to be stuck. Right, right, right. Right, someone's chopping tomatoes, someone's putting on all this lotion, so you're going to be stuck. So it's the salsa hand lotion of it all. One of you may be wanting to work towards family and children. The other one wants to travel the world. Both people are afraid to talk about it. And so, how do you get unstuck? You actually go to the edge of the cliff and recognize that if you open up and they go, because that's the fear, that fear of abandonment, that fear of being alone, that fear of loss, that if you can go to the edge of the cliff and say, this is actually what I want and can tolerate that early in the game, especially if you don't have stuff like kids and commitments and all of that, where you spoke in your truth and they can say, that's not what I want and not personalize it. Because as kids, it's almost like the equivalent of bringing our picture to our parents and say, look what I drew and the parent not caring or even worse, the parent saying, you,'re not my kid anymore because that's a bad job.

Oh my God, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so the idea that we could bring our truth to someone and they'd say, yeah, no, that's not what I want. It starts becoming the sunk cost fallacy, which kills most relationships. That's the idea of, I've already put all this resource into something. That's how people get stuck, is the sunk cost fallacy. And you've got to remember, behavioral economics often does have some of these answers. You've already put the money in, you've got a human experience, don't put more into this. And so then you have the conversation. And I've actually seen some people have beautiful ends to their relationship where they say, I still have this, I'm not ready for X or Y. I don't want to do X or Y. That's not the direction I want to go in. And they manage to salvage friendships and genuine curiosity in each other. And then that's that. But it's scary.

It takes a lot of courage for someone to end a relationship. No matter what type of you know.

And I wouldn't even say it's ended. I think it takes a lot of courage to speak your truth in a relationship. It's not even the ending. It's saying, what I want in this relationship is I want us to set, I want to have kids. I want to live, I want to move out of the city. I want to put our focus there. And the other person might say, I don't want those things. And that's when you say, okay, then we're on very different paths. But it's so easy for me to sit here in a studio and intellectually say this. Let's say I'm a 39 year old woman. That's not the what then?

What then?

You know, now you're thinking, oh my God, I want a child. This is what's in front of me. Then they start doing the math. I'm going to meet, how many years, but it's da-da-da-da, now I'm 42.

I want to find someone. Is there someone better than this?

Yeah, all these things. And it's not even like, or not even better as much as somebody who's more on my path. This is how it happens because we do forget that there is a sort of a biological piece to all of this. I mean reproductive technology is changing that and some women out there and women close to me have said, you know what? I want the kid, I'm not so sure I want the relationship and should I fall in love with someone? I don't want to fight with them over custody. So women are having their own children without a partner and saying, now motherhood's out of the game, it's actually easier to date. And now I'm going to meet a man either he wants a woman with a child or he doesn't. If he doesn't, he's not my guy. But I'll never have to fight this guy for custody of this kid. It's a new world and people who are making allowances for not wanting to get stuck in toxic relationships are going different paths. And I know men who have done that too. Men who have gotten surrogates and said, I want to be a father. They look, they find this, I'm going to get an egg donor eggs. They get donor eggs. They find surrogates. They find surrogates and they're like, I want to be a being a father to me was foremost. If I meet and fall in love with someone, super, but I want to be a father. It's not cheap though. So these are very privileged folks who can do this. But the fact is that there are paths forward in a way. And I think that the amount of damage, Louis, that people being raised in toxic relationships, having witnessed toxic relationships, maybe one of the biggest psychological crises that most people bring into adulthood. So I think making sense of that.

That's how we were raised.

Yes.

And not breaking the cycle.

We have crappy blueprints.

You mentioned the deep technique. Don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. So how do you argue or communicate with a narcissist to get your point across? If you need to get it across.

You don't.

You can't.

So sometimes I tell people, okay, but.

Do we, life is meant to be lived in a beautiful way.

Not with them.

So that we should just rip the band-aid, you know what I mean?

Not necessarily. We can't, right? So like I said, you know, I'll give you an example, okay? Narcissistic divorce. Family court and family law is not written around saying narcissistic parents aren't good for kids. So if you're a parenting with a narcissist, we're gonna give the other parent full custody, not happening. State of California, 50/50, all right? Unless somebody doesn't want that. So, what happens then is a person says, if I decide to split up from this person, I'm only going to be with my kids 50% of the time. And I don't want them with that influence 50% of the time. So some people will stay. My favorite is when people file for divorce, like the day of their youngest child's 18th birthday. I'm like, I don't know what that was about. You see that happen quite a bit. They literally wait till the last day. Trying to protect them. And then at 18, those kids are free agents. So there's no, no one can say you have to be here, you have to stay here, you have to celebrate.

This holiday with that or anything. They get to call their own shots.

So how do you- so you just have to have extreme patience, I feel like. It's beyond patience, it's radical acceptance.

Patience is endurance.

Radical acceptance. This thing sounds exhausting. It is absolutely exhausting. It's just knowing that this isn't gonna change. You ever spent time in Chicago? I'm sure you have, right? Go to Chicago. It's February in Chicago. Oh, it's miserable. Are you gonna go for a run in just your shorts and no shirt? No, unless you're crazy. Okay. Why?

Because in February in Chicago, it's cold.

Radical acceptance. Yes, you just accept it. If your window's facing east and you don't want the sun to wake you up, get curtains. Radical acceptance. You cannot talk to a narcissist. So I tell people, There's another concept I use, it's something called True North. Sometimes you have to get into the argument. True North are those things that you're going to fight for because they're important to your core values, so who you are. For some folks, it's their kids. For some people, it may be a cause they believe in or a belief they have, or they will not listen to, I don't know, prejudicial language. True North gets activated and they'll say, I'm taking the fight. They pull off the gloves, they pull out the earrings, and then they're in. They're just, they'll go at it. It is exhausting. Nothing good happens, right? But at least they can say, I took the fight, Dr. Romani, so I could live with myself. To know that I fought for myself. I stood up for what I wanted. But do not get into the fight about the dishwasher or, you know, why were you late to the party? Or why were you rude to my sister or whatever. I mean, if you keep taking every fight, it's exhausting. The minute you let go, you know what happens though is when a person finally gives up, they're overwhelmed with grief. They're like, there's no there, there's nothing here. There's nothing to talk about. I can't tell them good news because they make fun of it or they dismiss it. I can't tell them bad news because they get really angry and rageful. So all we can really talk about is the weather. I'm like, -huh.

But that's, I mean, what do you do with the rest of your time?

You cultivate other stuff in your life, interests.

Can you love a narcissist or is it impossible to love a narcissist?

It's a subjective question, right? Love is such a complicated word. It means something different to you, it means something different to me, it means different things to the people out in the street. So the, and that's the bigger question I often get is can a narcissist love? Is that possible?

It depends on what you mean by love.

Besides loving themselves. what is cold to you? Right. You're in short sleeves. I'm in a sweater. Yeah. You know, so it's, it's, it's a subjective word. So can a per, lots of people love narcissists. They do. They're like, I love this person. I, they represent something to me. Maybe this is where it starts getting to a philosophical question. Maybe when we love someone, it's very, it's very, it is very representational. We love what they stand for. We love what we believe they are, but we don't know. Maybe we never know someone enough to so again, that's a philosophical conversation. But when it comes down to it, there are people out there who will say, I do, parents are a great example. People have narcissistic parents. I love my mother or I love my father. I can't stand them.

Sure.

But love is much more metaphysical.

Yeah, of course.

Right?

So what's the biggest misconceptions about a narcissist?

That they love themselves.

They don't love themselves?

Oh hell no. It's self-loathing. This is a disorder of self-loathing. All that inadequacy and ugly insecurity, they hate themselves.

But then they put it on other people.

They project it onto other people. You're a horrible, lying, disgusting person. You make me sick.

Oh my gosh.

They're talking about themselves.

Oh my gosh.

I thought you just want to give them a hug.

Some narcissists are miserable.

They're miserable. Miserable. Miserable. It's awful. I actually say that the compassion we can find in ourselves is people like, I want to get revenge on them. I say, you don't have to. They have to keep being them.

They have to live with it.

The universe wins on that one. They have to keep being them. It is a, imagine every day you're comparing yourself to everyone. You're thinking, they have that and they have that. How come I don't have this and how come this? And they're constantly anxious. They're they're constantly angry, they constantly feel like a victim, they feel like everyone is out to get them. That's a very difficult way to live.

Their nervous system must be always heightened too.

Kind of, kind of, yeah, different than their psychopathic cousins there. He doesn't feel it, yeah. But narcissists really, really, it's a very uncomfortable way to live because you always feel like, they always feel like they're getting a short end of the stick.

And so what are the signs then if you're a kid, and you've thought one thing about your parents, but all of a sudden you're starting to see like, oh, maybe they might have a parent who's narcissistic. What would you say are the main signs if a parent for a kid would be narcissistic?

I don't think, let's say a child is anyone under 13. I don't even think kids start understanding that their parents are messed up until they're around middle school or high school. Selfishness, inattentive, real inattentiveness.

Dismissiveness.

Dismissiveness. Devaluation of their emotions, shaming them, humiliating them, expecting them to be like them, devaluing them if they don't excel at the things they want. What do you mean you don't want to go to Harvard? Or like, oh, you want to go to that college? Any kind of contemptuous dismissiveness of their children, that's all narcissistic parent behavior.

Wow.

Rage is a big one and I think that's probably the one my clients have brought up. Anger. Anger, but rage. like that, walking on eggshells. If anyone says to me, I felt like I was always walking on eggshells around my parent, probably dealing with an.

Antagonistic, a narcissistic parent. Yeah, I think I was telling you beforehand, I felt that for a part of my life and then things started to shift. But I've definitely walked on eggshells for many relationships in the past, which makes people be like, why did I jump into different relationships where I felt that way? Which maybe I hadn't learned to heal the past yet or I haven't learned.

To But you didn't jump into a relationship. I didn't feel that in the beginning.

You didn't feel it at the beginning. But it was like 6 to 12 months later when I was like- I justified.

Then I justified, oh let's just get back to where it was. One of the great, I would say your greatest vulnerability, quite frankly, to narcissistic relationships is your history as an athlete. Athletes are actually at not only great risk of being narcissistic but for falling for narcissists. And a lot of that is because for any gifted athlete. All you needed to do was work harder. You just had to go to the gym or had to run or do whatever, whatever it was you needed to do. It just meant more reps. Yes. There was always a way to make it better. You're gonna. You're gonna do the Sunday workout. You're gonna go to the gym at.

Four in the morning.

That's it. Right. And so the more in. You had this belief. You were. You got better and you were in control. So the belief is you could extend that to anyone. I just gotta talk. Talk to them harder. I'm gonna. I'm gonna be more clear. I'm gonna make more loving, more present, more giving. Everything becomes a workout.

Oh my gosh, this is what I did in the last 10 years. In every relationship for the last 10 years. And I remember just being like, it would never felt enough. And it was always draining to give. It was never enough what I gave. There was always something wrong with me. There was always something to pick at. And they never wanted to go to therapy with me. It was funny because I was like, what meant, you know, I don't want to generalize, but I was like, I'm a guy who wants to go to therapy and get feedback from my, like, I'm not perfect. Give me feedback. Tell me how to improve. Because I'm an athlete, right? I'm like, I want to improve. And they never wanted to. I was just like, I think women would kill for this, you know, for.

A guy who wanted to go to therapy with them. Not a narcissistic woman. Oh my gosh. But that idea of surrender is kind of actually the opposite of what an athlete is conditioned to become, right? And that's really the core of the narcissistic relationship. It's a sense of surrender. I'm not engaging with this. I'm not doing this. It doesn't work. And then you just fold it and step away. No, it was more like, I want.

To make this work. What can I do to make it better?

How can I improve?

Tell me what I can do. I'm here, I'll support, I'll do this. And then it just, it drains your energy.

Athletes, entrepreneurs, or anyone who's a doer.

And it's worked for them, they're screwed. It wasn't until I really started lifting the veil, as my therapist talks about, is like I started to really realize, like, okay, I don't need to keep working, working, working. You talked about this in one of your recent videos, like the marriage and relationships should be hard work is kind of the narrative. And when I realized like it shouldn't feel like, it should feel like commitment and there's attention and presence, but it shouldn't feel like this draining hard work. No, otherwise I'd rather be single if that's what it is.

Exactly, and I think that that, and I have to tell you a lot Other people have had a lot of harm done to them in therapy where therapists say to them, It's hard work. Relationships are hard work. No, no, no, no, no. It's not. I mean, yeah, maybe having to say, no, like having to sit through a football game you don't want to watch.

I don't know that that's hard work.

Like because they sat and watched your French film with you.

It's just an uncomfortable moment.

I'm just gonna read my book while you watch your football game. Like, yeah, we're good. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, I can show up for a few hours. That's not hard work. Yeah.

Hard, you know, and the other person's kind, right?

Again, Every healthy relationship, every healthy relationship has the same core ingredients. Kindness, compassion, patience, mutuality of regard, reciprocity, respect, every single one. And as long as you got that-- Flexibility. Flexibility. No narcissistic relationship has even one of those ingredients. So that's why they don't work. They don't work. So they're always going to be hard work. because you have not one of the essential ingredients. Like you're trying to bake a cake without flour, eggs, or sugar.

Good luck with that. How do you know when you're entering a new relationship, if the person is not a narcissist? Maybe you've been in a narcissistic relationship where your parent was or whatever it is, and you have some PTS from those experiences. And you feel like, well, I'm supposed to be walking on eggshells, but I don't need to. It's kind of healthy. Is this shoe going to drop? When you know the person isn't a narcissist, how long does that take to find out?

About the same amount of time it takes to discover that they are, in the sense that the difference is narcissists actually have red flags, right? I call these green flags. Green flags mean go. And green flags are things like watch the person, watch how the person behaves under conditions of stress. So let's say that you're running late to the airport. that's a great example of a stress, right? How are they acting? And are they saying, oh, I'm a little worried about this, but we're gonna make it work and listen. What's the worst that's gonna happen? We'll get rebooked. And they're calm and like, you know, listen, I'm just glad to be here with you. Like, we'll figure it out. To make the most of the moment. Yeah, we'll go to an airport hotel if we have to. But we're gonna be fine. A narcissist when they're running late to the airport. Oh, oh no, no, no, no. What happens? And it just, it's just, I'm not gonna curse. It's stress, it's exhaustion. But it's chaos, stress, accusations. This is your fault. Oh my God. Entitlement. Let me speak to the manager. Get me on that plane. Get that plane back to the gate. Oh my God. Like that's the narcissist, right? Whereas with the, with somebody, you watch them. And it doesn't have to be something as dramatic as the airport. It could be even something like, Hey, I noticed you've been working late. How about I make some dinner? So it's the noticing, it's the presence, it's the mindfulness. It's the willingness to be flexible and make compromise when it's needed, to meet you halfway, to listen to you. And more than anything is to also see the growth potential in you, so not to be threatened by your own success. So if you go to this person and you're like, Hey, you know what? I got this totally cool new opportunity. And the healthy person says, that is amazing. You have worked your whole life. I saw this in you. what can we do to make this work for you? Whereas everybody else, and not just narcissists, but insecure people will say, oh, I guess that's just going to mean more time away and you're going to be traveling a lot. There's going to be a lot of women on the road and you're like, oh my gosh, they just got the job of their dreams.

Oh my gosh. And that's bringing back so many members.

Yeah, that's the key. And I'm a big believer that, you know, there's actually something in, I'm going a little off topic, but you're off topic guy. You can handle it.

I love it.

There's something called the Michelangelo phenomenon. One person in the relationship sees the absolute potential in the other in such a way that they say, what do we need to do to get you to your dream? Like, do we need to, should we, like, should we take a second on the house? Should we cut back? You know, should we move closer in? Like, because I see, or, or, you know, it could be simple. as simple as they eat a cake that their partner made and said, okay, this is the best cake I've ever had. Have you ever thought of making this into a business? Or a partner of yours might have said, you, ask the most amazing questions. You need a podcast. Like, it's seeing that something bigger in the person.

That's a good thing.

That's the Michelangelo phenomenon. That's everything.

That's a good thing.

It's the best thing. And very few relationships get that because what you've got to do is that that person who's saying, Go, be your best you, is secure enough to say, I'm not going to lose you. Right. Like, I see all the good in you.

And that-- and I want the best for you.

And I want the best for you, and I believe in you, and I'm here with you. And that might even mean the person encouraging you might have to make sacrifice. Things like, you know, I know that you're going to have to go take this course for six months and I may not see you, and that's okay because this is our future together. That's the Michelangelo phenomenon. Never, ever happened.

What's the opposite of that?

Narcissistic relationship.

For people who have ended relationships with a narcissist or narcissistic personalities, what's the best way for them to enter a new relationship without PTSD or without the remnants of, are they gonna lash out at me? Are they gonna gaslight me? Are they gonna do these things that I've experienced in the past? What's the best way to overcome that? and enter a new relationship without bringing that baggage in a new one.

When I work with survivors in my practice and when I speak to them in a subscription, like a sort of healing program I've got that people come every month, the one thing I say is you got a way to beat. The temptation is I'm going to throw myself into a new relationship as a palate cleanser. I'm like, you know what? Sit with that dirty palate for a minute. Because you need to do this work work in you because I think the challenge is that when people get into narcissistic relationships or antagonistic or toxic relationships, they don't know what they're dealing with or they're replicating cycles from earlier in their life, right? Or both. And so what happens is that if you pivot too quickly, you don't get a chance to sort of know you. A narcissistic relationship does such a number on you. you have now been living in someone else's reality, right? People forget, like, do I like pepperoni pizza? Or do I enjoy this TV show? Or what temperature do I want the house at? Like, you literally lose sight of your own subjective sense of who you are. You lose sense of reality and your own perception of things. You just lose it all because you literally have been living in psychological servitude to this other person. So I tell people, Listen, my gold standard is a year. Give yourself a year, which I know is not a short period of time and everyone is like, you know what? Take care of your own business, but a year. I understand that feels like a long time, but here's the thing. These relationships get so much into someone's head that in a year a person can re-coalesce and they can unpack it and they can start putting down some of the rumination. You certainly don't want to do that in a new relationship. Right?

You don't want to bring that.

You don't want to bring that in. And you can also learn what you like, what you don't like, so that when somebody encroaches on that and says, they say something contemptuous, oh, who eats that? And say, okay, this is not okay. I'm not doing this again. You can start recognizing those patterns of what just doesn't feel right. But if you roll right into it, it's almost like a recreation of the old cycle. You need that separation. You need a break from anniversary dates. You need to have that first birthday alone, their first birthday alone, the holidays you do, the vacations you take, you've got to go live a life without them. And once you, because otherwise you're so, again, caught up, you might get caught up in someone else's sort of whole toxic bomb storm. So now I know a lot of people say, a year just feels too long. I'm like, I got you. I get it. A year is optimal. And the folks who've done it said, I don't regret doing that. all now. But for a lot of people, it might even be eight months, nine months. But there's a moment, Louis, after a narcissistic relationship, where a person will look up as they go to bed that night and say, oh my God, I didn't think of them once today. That's a good day.

That's an amazing day.

And I want not just one of those. I want a person to have a month of those. A while of those where they're just, you know, sure something might remind them or something, but not that like, what are they doing? What are they up to? Almost to the point where you've detached, it might even be a moderate indifference, like, oh, whatever. Let them do them.

It doesn't trigger you.

It doesn't set you off in the same way. But I do caution people, depending on the severity of the narcissistic relationship, sometimes people will report feeling those echoes years down the line, even if they've fallen in love with someone else. And someone will say, Does that mean I'm not over them? Not at all. the way the trauma systems in the mind and the body hold on to information, it means that anything that reminds you of that can still activate you. I've been through this and I got to tell you, to this day, I think if I saw some of the people who harmed me in the past, I can think of a few... You have a response? Oh my gosh, beyond a response.