Ben Shapiro & Russell Brand REVEAL How To FIX YOUR LIFE! | Lewis Howes

We can't spend our life in continual outward pursuit of an external goal because in all likelihood we're pursuing something spiritual anyway without knowing it.

If I start sacrificing what I think is true in favor of pleasing people, then I'm not doing my job. I'm not being true, I'm not being honest, and people can sense that.

I mean, you become a politician.

Right, exactly.

We've all been deeply inculcated to believe that the pursuit of happiness is contingent upon the attainment of our petty, trivial desires. But real happiness is...

When did you feel in your life the most insecure? And when did you fully start to understand how to overcome your insecurities?

Many of these negative emotions and feelings have wisdom in them, don't they? Because even the most ferocious forms of chemical dependency that I've experienced, crack and heroin addiction, are kind of about melting the boundary of who you are. Look at the idioms around it. Get off your face, get smashed, destroy yourself. On some level, again, using inappropriate means, you are trying to transcend and become free of the self. It's a spiritual impulse. May have to talk people through that more slowly because it seems sort of stupid to think of some hunched, drunk or junkie slumped in a doorway as being on a spiritual quest. But when you think that spirituality is simply the valorizing of the inner life over the outer life, the need to connect, the need to feel something truthful and real, then where anyone that picks up a drink ever or smokes a joint is after a spiritual experience. They're trying to feel better. Man, I felt insecure and worthless a lot of times in my life. It happens to me again and again and again. I'm lucky that I'm an addict because the addiction shows you. It takes you to extremes. So you're confronted with the fallibility of the choices you're making, that these choices won't work for you. I think a lot of people, and I wrote about that in the recovery book, are able to struggle along with moderate addictions, moderate addiction to the food or sex or success or whatever. Never ever reaching the point of crisis that would facilitate transformation, metamorphosis, real change, real change. You know that book Revelation I'm telling you about in that moment that you talked about going down to that place in Skid Row, the Union Mission, you know, I was doing a craft thing there with my wife. My wife does crafts and writes about craft and like creativity and parenting and mental health and stuff like that. So we went down there, so I was very much just in an assistant role. The first time I went there, yes, it was to talk to them kids and I thought like I didn't feel qualified I didn't feel good enough to do it. I felt somewhat ashamed. I felt ashamed of the, like I think I said in Revelation, like about, you know, if you're talking to homeless kids on some level, like, because this Union Mission, it's the only one of their missions that takes families. That's what it is. The others take either men or women or adults or whatever. This one takes whole families. There's a lot of people in there more than they should be in any civilized nation. And, like, when I was, when you're there, you want to tell them, look, this isn't your fault. It's not your family's fault. You're a byproduct of a economic system that's simply cannot generate, well, it can generate enough wealth, but it doesn't distribute wealth fairly for a number of complex reasons and you at the ass end of that. And I can't explain that today. It's patronizing and somehow dismissive. But more importantly, that day that I went to do the craft, I sort of saw, or maybe even someone told me, maybe I didn't have this realization, maybe someone said it to me, they don't know they're poor. They don't have that contextualization. They're just children. They're just children. It was sort of beautiful and amazing. And since having kids, as I said, I don't do, well, I used to do a lot. Me, I love children. I've always loved children. I used to get right, and I didn't have kids till like I was 40. So I was very much like if I was around my mates, kids or whatever, I'd really play with them and like get into characters with them and do a lot of joyful play. And now I've got kids. I can't be bothered with that. I'm tired, I'm exhausted. I'm not interested, you know. But that day, like I held it down because my wife was doing this stuff with the mums and the kids and I felt the heaviness and I felt the shame of the adult. and I was lifted by the joy of the children. But I held back, you know, like I was just helping them, they were making Play-Doh together and all this kind of stuff and doing these craft activities. And then when that finished, I let myself off the hook a little bit. I let myself be a dinosaur and a monster and be all crazy with these kids and monkey around with them, you know. And like there's one bit where like all these little five-year-olds and six-year-olds and seven-year-olds, they pulled me to the ground and they was beating me up and stuff. And I sort of looked up for a moment and all I could see, my whole vista was filled with children's faces. and they were smiling and they were full of joy. And this is when I felt, God is here. God is in this room. Look at this, there's nothing but joy and love and play and happiness in this lowest of place where people are suffering, poverty, being disregarded, neglected, and the whole room, my whole experience is filled with love. And this is just one moment in time, of course. I know that those children have got whole lives ahead of them and have whole lives behind them. But in that moment, there was an absolute realization of something sublime and divine. And for me, this is an important force, an important energy that has to be mobilized valourised, brought to the forefront, exalted in our culture, made the emblem and the driving force and the raison d'être of the way we live, not marginalised, neglected to the sidelines so people could plunder the earth and look at the earth as a resource and look at human beings as a resource and fortify systems of elitism. For me, the basic idea, the Sesame Street values, kindness and love, kindness and love, instead of the values that currently dominate, Selfishness, greed. This is what's at play now.

Yeah, I love that you talk about Sesame Street values. I'm a big Mr. Rogers values type of guy myself, which are very similar, I guess, in the fact of just be kind to your neighbor and be loving, be generous. I'm curious, when have you felt the most loved in your life? And when do you currently feel the most love?

Sometimes I think about my wife when I'm not with her. Like, when you're with her, she's just a person. But when I'm not with her, like, I sometimes think, oh my God, I found this person. I found this person that just loves me, doesn't care about anything. She's not particularly, you know, I've known people that are very impressed by aspects of my nature and behavior. You know, I can speak fast or whatever. say a lot of stuff and I can be novel. I don't know. My wife doesn't seem to care about any of that. She doesn't sure. She just sort of sees me as I am and I feel very at ease. Sometimes the greed in me wants stimulation, excitement, plaudits, fanfare, the carnival of life. But I recognize I have been to that carnival and, you know, I've had my turn. And, like, it's like it doesn't work for me. There's never enough for me. For me, it's this. It's the spiritual. it's the spiritual path. And I think that's true for everyone, but it's not really right for a person that's lived the life I have to be, you know, I feel like spiritual principles are for yourself, not for other people, you know? Like, oh, these are the things that I must do and other people have got to find their path, I suppose. And like, maybe I can sometimes be helpful to people, usually directly in an intimate way. Hopefully I can be helpful in a broadcast way, because indeed that's what we're doing. But who knows? I'm not sure that I was, I hope I was helped by, you know, people talking on the internet or on TV, but I can't remember it ever happening.

What is the thing you love about your wife the most?

My wife, she's strange in a way that you wouldn't straight away notice. She seems, because she's beautiful and she's capable and competent But she's very unusual little person. You know when you're married to someone and you like you know them, you know that after dark they turn into sort of the foulest, most impatient person, you know, and that they have little ways. What I have in my marriage is real intimacy, you know, like I have the ability, I don't have to, I can tell, she knows everything, she knows everything about me, you know, and like I, I need a sort of authenticity in my connections in life, Louis, because otherwise it's very, very sort of lonely. So what I love about her, I guess, I love her playfulness, her creativity, her willingness to change, her openness to conversation. There's like loads of things that I love about her. She's weird and she's a laugh. She's a funny person to hang out with.

That's beautiful. for the younger audience who might be confused about their life, their direction, their purpose, their relationships, and they might be chasing something, they might be looking for fame or power or money, whatever they're looking for. What are three things that you would recommend they prioritize in their chase, in their journey, in their life? What are three things that you wish you would have prioritized that you would share with them so they don't waste their life away or make, you know, bad mistakes.

Live in service of the thing you claim to love, you know, like if you were saying that you want to be an actor, to make sure that what you don't secretly want is actually, I just want loads of attention and power and glory and glamour, you know? Make sure that you are in service of acting or music or whatever it is. And that means, you know, like all of us have gifts and we often use these gifts. Like we put the gift to work. Like, right, gift, get out there and make me some money. Go make me a star. Imagine if it was like a little bird or a child or something. We have to look after it and take care of it. You know, me, comedy, I have always, this is the, thank God, it sort of saved me before I was switched on sort of spiritually or whatever. and even at my most keen and needy, I always really, really loved comedy in a geek way. You know, I've watched a lot of stand-up comedy. I study sitcoms. I learn them. I love Monty Python. I love Richard Pryor. I know my heritage. I know the line that I'm walking. I study them and observe them. So when I was doing stand-up comedy, which I was for years and years and years before I made any money out of it at all, I was becoming practiced and I was in service of comedy. Of course I also wanted to be a big famous star and I wanted people to love me and I wanted to have lots of opportunities. Of course I did. But, you know, what could I do, man? I had both things. I had both things. Thank God I had both. You know, if all you've got, if all I'd had had been the appetites, the appetites for the plaudits, the prestige and the privilege, I don't know where I would have ended up. So first I'd say be of service to the thing that you claim to love. Don't think about what it's going to give you. Think about what you can give to it.

Okay, that's the first one.

I've got to do three.

Yeah. If you've got three, yeah.

Second one is have something away from it that is not about it. Cultivate your inner life and your spirit. Don't allow it to entirely devour you. The fact is, I think, that we are spiritual beings in essence. We're the only animal that we know of on this planet that have these complex in us, these lives of complex inner subjectivity. As far as I know, my dog doesn't sort of go, oh God, that was embarrassing. You know what I mean? Like, he just is him. Although he does sometimes look a bit embarrassed thinking about it. But like, you know, we can't spend our life in continual outward pursuit of an external goal because in all likelihood we're pursuing something spiritual anyway without knowing it. We're looking for approval or connection or power or status or whatever it is. You can't get that as we, you know, we started off with this thematic idea established by your Carey quote there, mate. So you have to have something that's separate from it. I would suggest meditate. Learn how to meditate. Practice meditation. Practice meditation. Find a form of meditation that works for you. Don't try to change the rules and say something, I meditate when I'm on the treadmill or I meditate. when I'm gardening, sit down with your eyes shut and meditate. You can have guided meditation. In fact, I do guided meditations on my luminary podcast, Above the Noise. You could start there or you could do my on my side channel, Awakening with Russell Brand on YouTube. I do guided meditations on there also. But, you know, God, don't stop there. Tich Nat Han, Ram Das, Mooji. All like great, great teachers. Great teachers available. everywhere. Meditate, meditate. You have to cultivate your inner life away from it. That's the second one. The third one. Do you want the third?

Yes, please.

You're very lovely, aren't you? You're very sort of patient and kind person, sincere and sweet. Well, the third one, I would say, is make helping other people something that is integral to your life so that you don't get. You don't do what I did and become so absorbed. in yourself and what you want that when you get it, it doesn't work for you because it was, it's meaningless. Like so, like if you, if part of your life is helping other people and if you want to go for the black belt in this, then help other people without other people finding out about it. If you can help people privately, no one knows about it. No one knows about the time you volunteer down at the shelter or the thing you do for a particular person that's in need of it. if you can do that, then what you're cultivating there is a relationship with a higher frequency of being. Because of course, kindness or virtue now, virtue is itself a commodity. There's not a corporation on earth that isn't putting up some flag or another to ally itself to some cause without actually changing its core behaviors and values, just applying the wallpaper of virtue. If you have some virtuous behaviors that are not advertised, that are not known by anyone but you, You know, next time someone calls you out, some little voice in you will go, I do that thing. Nobody knows about that.

Yeah, I think it's interesting. I've always been on the mindset of like, show some of the stuff you're doing to help others so that you can inspire other people to be like, oh, okay, I should do that too. Or whether it's a donation or showing up and giving time or some of your resources or talent. But definitely, you don't need to show it all the time. I think it's important to show some. to inspire and evoke it out of others to be like, Hey, listen, I'm doing this thing. You know, I'm trying to inspire you to do something in your life that's a cause for you. That's the way I've approached it as well, but I'm with you on keeping some of it for yourself or not needing to share with others to get an applause or validation or to be like, you,'re a good guy or something. I love that, Louis.

I like that, Louis, because we can create sort of shared values together, like by role modeling for one another. you can inspire others and it's not something you can do alone. You know, this idea that sort of fated or sainted individuals are going to save us doesn't work as well as the idea that collectively we can bring about greatness and change. This infatuation with the individual is sort of part of the problem and I think all of us fall prey to it because it seems so real. What's as real to you as your own thoughts? What's as real to you as your own pleasure? There's legitimate, ongoing, philosophical debates about whether or not other people are actually even there. The only thing we know for certain is our own existence, so it's easy to fall in that. But if we practice values that appear universal, kindness again, like the Mr. Rogers or Sesame Street values, then we're sort of part of something transcendent, part of something bigger than us. We're not continually furnishing our cell, ornamenting our fragile and transient egoic structures.

What was the biggest challenge for you? Was it that you kept speaking out or you didn't feel like you could share your voice because people were making fun of you or?

I mean, mostly it was that, you know how kids are, that if you're not part of the in-group, you're part of the out-group. Or there is no out-group.

Even if this religious, loving, Does not matter.

Does not matter.

Community experience.

People are still people. Religion is based on the assumption that people are still people and religion proves it out, man. There are a lot of Religious people who treat each other viciously and this is particularly true when you're talking about teenagers who are just by and by.

And large trying to fit in and.

Live life yeah, I mean you're the worst version of you aside from when you're two which I know because I have a son who's 17 aside from aside from when you're two and you're completely selfish person yeah, yeah, but from the until you hit adulthood and actually experience responsibility when you're like 14 or 15 and mom and dad are taking.

Care of all your bills and you.

Can and your laundry and your food and your bag and when you're going to an upper-class Jewish school they're giving you a car Right, I mean like it's like that you didn't have to pay for it. Yeah, right exactly, like that does not tend to breed particularly great behavior and it does breed a certain group mentality also. I mean there's a herd mentality among kids obviously and among people generally but it is very strong among teenagers. So you spent two years in high.

School then essentially, right?

Three years in high school. Yeah, 11th and 12th.

Yeah, gotcha. Did you feel like you were the outsider the whole time?

What were people saying or doing to you? Oh yeah, I mean it was Yeah, I mean, I was the outsider the whole time for sure. I mean, I would be physically accosted. There was one situation where I was on, there was kind of a weekend getaway, and there was one situation where guys legitimately held me down in a bed and hit me with belts.

No way.

Yeah, there was a situation where, and then that concluded with them, like somebody brought a long pair of handcuffs, they dragged the bed frame outside the cabin and then handcuffed me to the bed frame in front of the entire school. school. So, yeah, it was good times.

The guys and the girls?

Well, the girls weren't there, so this is just guys.

But it was still so horrible, but.

Could you match the guys and the girls? Oh, you know, if girls had been there, it would've been even worse. But I was having my own level.

Of unsuccess with the girls as well, so.

Right.

So they were hitting you with belts.

Pinning you down and hitting you with belts, and then they handcuffed you to a bed outside. Yeah, that was the next morning, yeah. And because, and so, you know, high school was not A lot of fun for me.

Was that your first year, sophomore year?

That would have been, yeah, I think it was either sophomore or junior year. I can't remember.

Did it get better? Did it get worse? Did you?

It got better than that. I mean, it wasn't like that every single day. That was definitely the low point. But it was unpleasant. Again, I don't think most of the kids there were like that. It's tough because you get in this.

Group mentality when it's like everyone's rallying against you. a cause, right?

Right. And in school, the cause is always somebody. It's always some kid. Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, I was that for a while and I was excited to get out of high school. I mean, I enjoyed like the learning aspect of it, but I was very excited to leave. And when I got to college, I was so happy, especially because when I was in college, I lived at home. So that meant I wasn't like with the other students full-time. I was spending a lot of time commuting. But I would go to class and I'd learn stuff and then I'd leave and then I'd go write essays and read and then I'd go back to school and it was great. Like it was just great and I got along with people in college because.

Nobody in college cares how old you are really.

Yeah, there's care that you're smart or you're kind or whatever. Right, exactly. You know, I loved college. I thought college was great and then when I went to law school, I loved law school too. So high school was the worst of it for sure.

But the question was, you know, again.

Just the mentality was what do you do about it? How did you overcome it during high school? I just put my head down and pushed. I mean, it was, I never shut up. I mean, I never, I never, it was not like I just kind of receded into silence or being sullen or anything. It was like, okay, well, you know, this is how life is gonna be. You take a few punches and you keep moving. And, you know, that had been inculcated a little bit younger, 'cause when I went to middle school, even, I used to wear a yarmulke to middle school.

And it was a public middle school.

So there were some issues there as well, so. Were you the only one wearing yarmulkes? Oh yeah, yeah. It was Walter Reed Middle School, not a lot of Orthodox Jews going there. So it was, so I was kind of a social outcast there too. And so again, you sort of learn to grow a thick skin and you either just basically say to these people, go F off, you know, or you knuckle under to it.

Did you have any close friends, middle school or high school, where you could confide in or talk to?

No, no.

Zero, not one kid.

No.

Not one kid your age that you could be like, hey, let's talk at lunch or let's No, I mean I.

Had people I was acquainted with, but no, I wouldn't say I had any strong close friends.

So did you get invited to like.

Birthday parties at kids at school? Did you go home?

I mean occasionally, but not really.

I mean that wasn't the-- Church kids, like anything? So, no, I mean, honestly, I spent most of my childhood talking to adults. I mean that was really kind of like most of the people I was having conversations with were 45. So that meant number one, the level of conversation was better, but no, I've never been a friends person. I'm a very family oriented person. So I spend almost all of my, like my best friend is my business partner. But aside from that, all of the people that I'm closest to are my parents who live a mile and a half way from me, my wife who I spend 95% of all waking free time with, and my two kids who I spend an enormous amount of time with. And I think, I do think people are either built one way or the other. I think there are people who are kind of more friends people and social and they like to be out with friends and they want to spend time with friends I'm the kind of jerk who would go to a party at Harvard Law and we'd go to a party and I would bring a book with me because if people were boring, I was not going to waste the two hours.

This is a good time to read right now.

Yeah, exactly. I got in a lot of good reading at these parties.

So, yeah.

So if I ever call you up.

And say, hey, do you wanna hang out? I'm gonna get the axe right away.

I mean, unless my wife and kids are out of town, yeah, basically. I mean, that is the reality. For me, every interaction has to be weighed against the opportunity loss. It's like your mom, it's very practical. Exactly, there's a certain economic cost foregone in every conversation, in every bit of time that you spend. And so I turned down dinner invites, it's very difficult to get me to go out to dinner, even with people who are prominent, because I don't want to. You have to make the case as to why I should be spending the time with you, as opposed to spending the time with my two kids, who I like a lot better than you. Right, and that's, my kids are great, my wife is great, I picked them, they're fantastic. And so, wow.

Do you feel like you kind of got robbed from your childhood then?

In a sense, I suppose. I mean, high school wasn't fun. So if childhood is supposed to be kind of like fun, then yeah, but it was an alternative use of time for me. I spent a lot of time reading, and a lot of time writing, and a lot of time involving myself in stuff I wanted to be involved with. So, I considered my childhood pretty happy without, it just was not social. You had a focus.

You had goals early on, 'cause you're.

A-- yeah, I was a near professional musician. I studied with one of the top 10 teachers in the world at the time. In violin?

In violin.

And piano too, right? Not piano. My dad's a professional pianist, so we'd play Brahms together and like that. Were you a Suzuki trained? Yeah, originally. And then I moved on to a teacher named Abram Stern, who was a Russian top-level Russian teacher who lived out here in West LA. And then fill it with that. I would fill it with again a lot of reading and a lot of conversations. It was a good time to pick up on my movie watching. So I've seen every Oscar nominated film since 1933.

Wow.

So that's how you create the cultural knowledge base for doing a show. It all pays off in the end.

Sure, sure.

But yeah, I mean in the sense that I wasn't getting invited to the cool kid parties. Then yeah, that was disappointing and upsetting. It was much more disappointing at the time than it is now. And I will say that it is amusing. Just people are, human beings are amusing. And I'm sure you know this, I'm sure you've experienced the same thing, is that people treat you very differently when you are less successful and when you are more successful.

And now they're all coming back and be like, oh man, you remember us in high school?

Yeah, I do remember you in high school.

Delete, yeah, yeah. What was your most proud moment growing up?

Well, I mean, the best moment growing up is when I caught a foul ball at a Dodger game.

But.

My most proud moment growing up, I don't know, you'd have to say before college and after college.

Okay, before college.

So, I mean, before college, I would say that my, I still think my most proud moments are doing nice things for people. So like I try to do nice things for people not talk about them. So that means that I can't talk about them.

Sure, sure.

But as far as you know I was I was proud that when I was in high school, I was 14 and I won a 10-minute play contest from Princeton. That kind of stuff.

--10-Minute play contest?

--Yeah, a fiction. Like a fiction play, like a short play. Oh wow, that's cool. So that was kind of fun. Is that kind of cool? Yeah, that kind of stuff was neat. You know, there's the occasional school fight that you win, right? Those are always proud moments. As a dude, those are always proud moments. There's always some point where-- I fought back. Exactly, exactly. Or there's a sports moment where you finally make one move playing basketball. When I was in junior high for some reason I just got incredibly hot and hit 15 shots in a row.

And the coach was right there and.

He'S like, why don't you try for the basketball team? I suck at that. Yeah, I guess you got lucky, yeah. 'Cause I'm terrible. So, yeah, I mean there's that kind of stuff. And then, you know, post college obviously my proudest moments are getting married, having my kids, taking care of my family things where I've stepped in to help people. And that's all the stuff that I actually care. And then, listen, I'm very proud of the stuff that I do on a daily basis where I feel like I'm actually reaching, I get a lot of letters from folks saying that because they've listened to the show that it's changed their life in some material way and it's made them think about something differently. and that's great to hear, especially because my show is so political. It's political entertainment. So if I get a letter from somebody saying that I changed the life, like I got one the other day from a guy who said that he was, his girlfriend had gotten pregnant and he wasn't thinking about marrying her and she was thinking about having an abortion and he listened to the show and I'm very pro-life and so he had listened to the show and he went to her and said, listen, I think that we ought to have the baby and I think that he, and I'm also obviously very pro-marriage, and I said, you, should... and he said, I think we ought to have the baby and I think we ought to get married. And they got married and they had the baby and they couldn't afford it and it didn't matter. And he said, We're happier now than we've ever been in our lives. I've gotten letters from people who say that they were drug abusers and they listened to the show and then because the constant message is, you know, kind of get up off your ass. Take care of your kids. That doesn't mean that we won't help you out if you need it, right? Like, I give a lot of charity. People should give a lot of charity. But, The first step has to be you, right? I mean the first step in the morning has to be you getting out of the bed. And so I get a lot of letters from people who've been addicts who have gone to 12-step programs because they feel the necessity to change their lives and materialize. I mean that's the stuff I'm really proud of.

All the other stuff is just ancillary, I think. Yeah. It's funny, I feel in some ways very similar to you because I was picked on a lot growing up, even.

Though it doesn't look like it because.

I'm like this bigger guy or whatever. You don't say how, yeah. It's funny because, you know, I was always I was the complete opposite of you. You were like the smartest kid in the class. I was the dumbest kid in the class. So I was in the bottom four every year through high school and middle school. I had tutors my whole life. I was in special needs. I had a second grade reading level in eighth grade. So I was a kid that they would call, the teacher would call in front of the class to speak and read and I couldn't read the first like lines and I would just stutter and mumble. So I was just made fun of constantly for being the most ignorant kid. And I used that kind of frustration and anger of being picked on to be like, I'm gonna be the best athlete I can be to like prove everyone wrong and like show you guys, right? And so when I got into high school, I was one of the better athletes as a freshman. I was kind of like the opposite of you, right? You were like the smartest. And I was like the better athlete. So I was with the on varsity my freshman year of every sport. And so everyone was 17, 18, I was 14. so I was the one they picked. I was the one they picked on, right? And so every year I was just like the younger one that they picked on and kind of like razzed and, you know, hazed or whatever until I was a senior. Then all of a sudden I was like, oh, all the people I was hanging out with are gone. And I remember having a moment going into my senior year, I was like, all my friends and the ones who like picked on me the whole time are gone. I can either be like them to a lower classmen, But I was like, that feels horrible to me. I don't want to just repeat what they did. So instead I said, I'm gonna focus on trying to connect with everyone. Like the geeks, the science people, I was in choir, I was in musical plays, I did tap dancing, I did everything. And I was just like, I'm gonna try to connect with all humans and learn about people. And not repeat what happened to me my whole childhood. And I think hearing you say, like, your most proud moments are when you give and when you're kind to people, people. And when you're in charity, when you're.

In service, it violates my brand, but yeah.

I think it's really inspiring to hear because same thing for me, it's like I don't feel good when I'm just constantly, you know, making money is fun and having these accomplishments are nice, but it's like the times that I'm in the most flow and the most love and fulfillment is when I'm in service to someone else. Yeah. Or in service to humanity, which is.

What my mission is. And that's also, that's also the big thing, I think, is that learning from your own mistakes and mistakes other people have made dealing with you. Do you learn from that and you decide to react against that in a way that's better? Or do you just react to it and lash out because of it and decide that because somebody else did something bad, you also get to do something bad? And, you know, I think that the mark, as I get older, I think that the mark of a good person, or at least a person who's trying, is a person who wakes up in the middle of the night worried about the mistake they made the previous day. And how do you fix that? And the mark of a person who's who's gonna have problems, is a person who wakes up in the middle of the night angry at what somebody else did to them. Because there are certainly cases where somebody's really victimized you in a serious way, and that's something we should all worry about and try and do something about. But most problems are not gonna be overcome by being angry at stuff that's.

Happened to you in the past, unfortunately. Reacting in a negative way. Now I'm curious, if you had this normal childhood, let's say, right, you didn't skip grades, Kids were nice to you. They invited you to birthday parties. They like celebrated you as opposed to put you down and like whipping you with belts and crazy stuff. Do you think you would be as driven as a human being that you are today and as focused on, you know, building everything you're building and having.

All these big-- I doubt it. I doubt it. I mean really because one of the things that you learn when you get beat on a lot is that you either have to care what people think or you really don't care what people what people think. And I think that it is a, it's something that doesn't help you when you're in high school not to care what people think because caring what people think is what makes you popular in high school and trying to cater to that crowd.

And leading, yeah, going into the herd as opposed to being like screw you guys.

Right, exactly. But because I was sort of out of the herd from the time that I was young, it was like okay well I don't care. And you say that enough to you, at the beginning you do care obviously, but at a certain point you're like you know what But I actually don't. My life is not materially worse because I'm not dealing with these people. And having followed them would have been dumb. Hanging out with it, would I want to? And so I feel that same way about politics and principles. I'm not somebody who has typically tended to move with the herd, and that's true on specific issues, and it's true insofar as things like elections, right? In 2016, I took the most unpopular position you could take. I didn't vote for either major candidate. I did that as a- you- announced it, too. I said that out loud. Repeatedly, I was extraordinarily critical of President Trump's character and personality. I still am. And it's not my job to please people. I mean, if people aren't pleased with me, then great, but it's not my job to please people. It's my job to say things that I think are true. And if I start sacrificing what I think is true in favor of pleasing people, then I'm not doing my job. I'm not being true, I'm not being honest, and people can sense that.

I mean, you become a politician.

Right, exactly. Authenticity is about saying a bunch of unpopular stuff, which is why politicians are are generally inauthentic because their job is to say stuff that people want to hear or you don't win.

Yeah, right. I guess Trump proved us wrong by.

Saying a lot of things that people didn't want to hear, but- yeah, I mean, I think that's right, but I think that we'll find out whether that's a lasting trend, I mean, not to get into 2016 election analysis, but I would say that President Trump, I would say Hillary Clinton lost the election much more than President Trump won it. Won it, yeah. So, you know, I think that, and she, and it is true that in politics there is this weird, thing where people want to hear what they want to hear, but they also hate inauthenticity. And so, so his authenticity, his authenticity trumped her inauthenticity, right? That Obama was an authentic politician. He tended to believe all the things that he was saying. It didn't feel like he was pandering as much, even though I think he was, you know, I think he was, but he was, Obama is who Obama is. I think, I'm not even sure that Hillary Clinton knows who Hillary Clinton is, and I think it was a problem for her in 2016. Trump is exactly who he is for for better and for worse, right? I mean, for all of the things good about him and all the things bad about him, that dude is authentically what Donald Trump is. And people sense that. And so when they had the choice between, not even choosing between Hillary and Trump, because I don't think that's how most people came down to it. I don't think most people were like, ah, should I choose one or should I choose the other? I think it was people who were like, should I go to the polls today or not? And for people who thought Hillary was inauthentic, they're like, meh, she's probably gonna win anyway. I really wanna waste my time today. Do I really owe that to her? And for people who thought Trump was authentic, yeah, yeah, I'm right, I'm going to the polls today, that dude's authentic.

He'S saying what I think, right? And that was sort of the feel in 2016. Yeah, wow. So you think if you had more of a normal childhood where you weren't.

As bullied or picked on or these things, where do you think you would be today?

What would you be doing?

I'd probably be a successful lawyer. And that's what you did, you went to law school. Right, and then I worked at a law firm, and part of being at a law firm requires you to be part of the social group, because otherwise working at law firm really blows. It's a terrible job, especially the early years. And for me it was like, well, I don't care about any of this stuff. I was the guy who, yeah, I mean, and so the authenticity has its upside and its downside. When I was interviewing for law firm jobs, I was way too authentic for the interviewers and it did not work well. I had the worst law school interview, I had the worst law firm interview record of anybody I've ever heard of at Harvard Law. I had 32 law firm interviews and I got one offer. And I graduated cum laude from Harvard, and I'd written three books at the time. So my resume was pretty good. You got one offer. And I got one offer, but that's because I would be asked questions like somebody would say, I remember one interview, they would say something like, well, why do you want to work in corporate law? Now look, we all know the answer. Why you want to work in corporate law, right? You've got $200,000 in debt or $150,000 in debt and no one grows up thinking, you, know what I really want to do with my life? I want to spend the next four years of my life directly out of law school reading for page numbers. and for missing commas and indents. That, which is what you do. You work 2100-2200 billable hours at a major law firm. You were there from 8 in the morning to 9 at night, reading for page numbers and paginations. And I, and so they said, you know, why do you wanna work at, in corporate law? I said for the money. And which is the true answer, but not the good answer, right?

Because I wanna help people who are, you know, wrongfully But that's not even.

What you do at a corporate law firm, right? So you can't even say like, oh, I want to be Atticus Finch or something. Instead it's like, what do you want to do? The answer they want is because I want the intellectual stimulation and because I really like the back and forth and I love the court system and I really enjoy reading case law and all this stuff. And I was like, nah, cash. That's why you're here, aren't you? I mean, what are you doing here? You're making $2 million a year as a partner. You're gonna be doing this for $100,000 a year? I mean, and that was for me always an issue when it came to jobs, The money actually was, maybe this is because I, so I grew up middle class, but middle-middle class. Not poor, not rich, very middle class. And so my first home where I lived until I was 11 was probably an 1100 square foot home in Burbank where we had one bathroom for six people. And I shared one bedroom with three of my sisters. Not poor, but we were fine, but not loaded or anything. And so because of that, I was never really afraid of either living like that, and also because I grew up with a solid education, I wasn't afraid of falling completely off the ladder completely, and because I'd made decent decisions, I wasn't really afraid of that. Listen, again, the biggest privilege you can have in American life is twofold. Two biggest privileges in American life: being born here, having two parents at home. Those are the two biggest privileges. and I had both of those things. So I wasn't really that afraid of not earning tons of money or anything. And so I never had to be forced into a position of I need to take a job just for the money. I worked at a law firm for 10 months, and the initial pay at law firm, this is not private information, because it's true for every major law firm as of 2007 when I joined. The initial pay at these law firms was about $180,000 a year. And I-- It's a nice first salary. Which is a great first salary. It's a lot of money. I mean, it's a great second salary. It's a great salary, right? $180,000 a year is a lot of money. And I worked there for 10 months and I hated it, hated it. I mean, just despised it. And after 10 months, I walked in and I quit with no job lined up and a mortgage because I just bought a condo with my wife. Here in LA or was it a-- yeah, I was in LA. And I walked in and I quit and I took a job a couple months later working for Talk Radio Network, which was a syndicator for Michael Savage and Laura Ingram for less than a third of the pay. And that was just the way, because I didn't feel fulfilled. I hated it. I mean, I remember turning to my, she was then my fiance, I remember turning to her and saying, I hate this so much. I'm miserable. I mean, I'd lost weight. Like, I wasn't eating. And I said, I'm miserable. I can't eat. Yeah, exactly. I was down to like, you know, I'm like, my normal weight is like 160, 165. I was down to like 138. No. And I, so I turned to my wife and I'm like, I'm just miserable. And she's like, well, then you should quit. And her parents are like, no, don't quit. Her parents are like, don't do it. Don't do it. You're making lots of money. And I was like, no, I quit. The funniest part of that is when I quit, I walked into the senior associate's office, named Doug, and I said, I can't deal with this. This is just the worst. I need to quit. And he was trying to convince me not to do it. And he brought in another senior associate who had played minor league baseball. All right, and this guy, you know, was still young. I mean, he's a senior associate, but that means he's like 31, 32. And you're 22. At this point, yeah, at this point, I was 20, 24. So 23, 23. And so, yeah, 23. And 24. In any case, in any case, I had, we all sat down, and Doug is trying to convince me not to quit. And then Andrew's trying to convince me not to quit. And I'm saying, guys, this is miserable. The hours suck. The work is boring. All the people here are jerks. You're being authentic, yeah. And about five minutes into the conversation, Andrew turns to Doug and he says, you know what? Maybe I should quit. And he was dead serious. Andrew was the other senior associate. He turned to the other side. He's like, maybe I'll go back to playing ball, man. I hate this. So it turned from them trying to stop me from quitting. into one guy trying to stop two guys. I guess I was convincing at that. He didn't end up quitting. I think he had a mortgage too, but then I walked in, and the punchline to the story is I walked into the boss's office, the guy who ran the branch, and I said, I'm quitting. And he said, you'll never make as much money as this again. You're blowing it. You're never going to make anything like this money again. I said, well, then I guess I'll.

Never make this kind of money again. I've wanted him to send my tax return. I've wanted to send him my tax returns for so long. Sure. But that's the bullied kid in us that wants to prove people wrong, right? It's like the, I always did that too for you. All my 20s, people said I wasn't gonna make it as a pro athlete. They said all these, I wasn't gonna make money when I was broke on.

My sister's couch, all these things. And now, Success is great revenge.

It really is. It's the emails I get, the messages I get on Facebook from people from like back in the past. I'm like, this is just so funny to me. It's so funny. But it's all good. I used to be so motivated to prove people wrong. and it worked. I would achieve everything by proving people wrong and prove them wrong. And then I realized like wow, this doesn't actually bring me fulfillment or happiness. It wasn't until when I hit 30 when I started to shift it all and say, you know what, I'm just gonna start lifting people up and like serving people and not focusing on the five bullies in high school or middle school or the person who did this and that. And focus on like now.

No, that's exactly right. I mean you've seen Back to the Future 3. Remember, there's the train in Back to the Future 3 where they keep throwing in these kind of incendiaries into the train and it changes the color of the smoke coming out. But it gives a boost to like a higher speed each time. So, Anger can be that boost, but it can't be the actual baseline fuel that you're using to run the train. Yes. So, it gives you that temporary high and it's like having to go out.

And do something today. But what actually makes you go do the work on an increasing level over an amount of time is the actual purpose and meaning.

Exactly.

What skills do you wish you would have learned earlier that would have helped you?

I wish I'd learned Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as a child. That would have really grounded me.

Yeah.

It really sort of straightened me out.

Why do you think that would ground you?

Because I think it gives you a respect for your body and it gives you a respect for other people as well. The thing about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is you learn what you're capable of, but you also see what other people capable of. So you're like, wow, I'm kind of can do all this stuff, but I, oh my god, did look at this guy. I would not have known that. I would not have known from looking at that person that they had those kind of resources. So it creates the perfect optimal state, I would say, of like, I would not want to be a person that is an aggressor or looks to create conflict, but neither am I so anxious about conflict that I'll bend myself into peculiar shapes to avoid it, you know, like, and even, and this is, you know, it's had a positive impact, impact on me learning Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in my 40s. So if I'd learned it when I was 12, I think. And also there are affiliated values within martial arts, respect, hierarchies that are fair and just and earned camaraderie, physical contact in a clear and consensual and boundaried way. I mean, it's just so full of great values. I think it's like that martial arts in general, but Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is the one I know. I like, you know, I like that wonderful communities. And they're also, oh, also as well, you put aside who you are. You put aside who you are when you enter into it. You know, I do try and use my personality sometimes on the mat. Like, come on, who? I don't charm people a little bit. But it's only moderately successful.

OK, so that's one skill.

I wish I'd learned abstinence and the principles of 12-step recovery, which of course encompasses quite a lot of values. The principles of recovery because even before I was a drug addict, you know, so sort of abstinence-based recovery, I wish I'd learned abstinence-based recovery. Because even before I was addicted to crack and heroin, the way that I was eating chocolate, the way I was watching pornography, the way I was obsessed with girlfriends, the way that I was sort of a clingy little dude, you know, like all of these things. The idea that I can have a connection to a God of my own understanding, that I can be to a degree sufficient, that I am not God, I'm not the most important person in the world all the time, but also I'm not scum. I don't have to bow and scrape before anybody. I have values, but I don't need to always, as they say in some of the great literature, scrambling to be on the top of the pile or hiding underneath it. You know, like being happy to be just a person among people, not always seeking to sort of somehow either fate, isolate or separate myself, you know, being happy to be part of a community or part of a group or part of a family. The 12-step recovery has so many beautiful principles. The idea of God and the idea that we all have equal access to God, the idea of of fellowship, fraternity, sorority, brotherhood and sisterhood between us, the idea of service of one another, the idea of being honest and authentic about who we are, surrender, acceptance. So I would say the skills of 12-step recovery, yes, that would be the second one.

Okay.

The third one, what would be another thing? I mean, I really sometimes, like every day I think about, I wish I spoke another language. Every day, I think. Gosh, man.

It's funny to say that because for 20 years, Russell, I've been, at the end of every year, I look back and say, okay, what am I proud of that I created? And what do I regret that I didn't do, that I wish I would have done? Every year for 20 years has been.

I wish I would have learned Spanish.

Spanish is the one I want. And for, because, and every year I try, every year I'm like, okay, I'm gonna download the latest app. Download the app. I'm gonna get the book. I'm gonna try this new, Someone said, this is the program that'll work for you. You'll be fluent in three months, all this stuff. And it gets so hard for my brain within the first few days. And I'm like, I'm just not smart enough. I can't figure this out. It hurts. I've got all these other things going on, and I end up giving up on myself.

And every year- that's what I did.

Sorry to hear that. Which app did you try?

I'm just trying to find it. Like, I really got quite far in. I was pretty pleased with myself.

I was just trying to find it. Is this Babbel?

Is this the one? yeah, I was doing well. And then it got into this sort of this area of grammar that was so complex. This is the same. What I was saying this, I was like, what? That's so hard. I can't even. I can't find an equivalent for that in English. And I don't. You look, if you've been doing this for 20 years, you must be the same as me. You must be like, you know that you're gonna have to go somewhere where you've got no choice. You've got to go to Argentina or Cuba or Madrid or whatever, and then.

Fully get down with it, because otherwise. Exactly. Well, here's the thing. What I realized is I kept losing integrity with myself because I kept wanting to do it. I kept saying I was gonna do it, and then every year I want to do it. And I kept feeling like less and less confident with myself. And so I either needed to kill the dream and say, I no longer care about this dream and let it go, and say, that's not for me in my life, or I needed to commit to it. And six months ago, I said, I'm hiring a tutor three days a week. I'm making, scheduling the time in the calendar. I'm gonna make it a commitment. and the first four months were miserable. It was. I didn't feel like I was learning a thing, but now month six, I feel like I'm still not good, but I'm like, it doesn't hurt my brain as much. And I could see, okay, you know, in. In three, five, seven years, I could become a lot better. I could have a conversation and. And feel proud of it. And it's tough. I get up, you know, I do it at 8 a.m. some sessions, but it's like, I don't want to feel. not confident and proud of myself by wanting this thing and always putting it off. So, yeah, I think it's either a full immersion or finding a tutor and just saying, okay, three days a week or five days a week, I'm doing this and sacrificing something else. But it's been powerful for me. I don't know if you're similar to this. When I take something on, I want to be the best at it within a day. I want it to be great. I want to do things that I'm good at. And this is something that humbles me. It's like being in Brazilian jiu-jitsu for the first time, probably. It's like, I'm on my back. and getting pinned every moment, no matter what maneuver I try to do. And you just gotta say, okay, I'm here to learn. You know, I know nothing and have a beginner's mind. So it's been a humbling yet powerful experience because I haven't been able to use the skill, but I know it's helping me learn and connecting the dots on things. And it's just, I feel proud even if I never use it just because I've been doing it and it's something I want to do.

Why don't I've got a few questions. One is how long are your sessions?

They're an hour long, three days a week right now. Yeah.

Why don't you book some kind of trip where you're gonna get to use it?

Yeah, I mean, my girlfriend's Mexican, so she speaks Spanish too. So I practice with her and I go visit her and her family and no one speaks English in her family. So when I'm with her and her family, I'm forced to practice. So, you know, doing more of those trips will be helpful.

I've been in love. When I was a younger man, I was in love with a woman from one from El Escorial near Madrid. And like, like I went and stayed with her family. And I guess, because I feel comfortable speaking English, you know, I feel like such a moron when I can't like, when I don't have that, when I don't have language, I feel nude. and just helpless. And it kills me, man. I, like, I love being able to. I've got little. I've had. The thing is as well, Spanish, a bit like you, I've had points where I'm like, hold on, I'm getting there. I'm getting there. And then I don't do it. Atrophies into nothing. Then I had another girlfriend who was from Barcelona, who just was so magnificent. And she was, like, worked in a beater, and I would go and see her, and I would get a little bit closer to understand it. I'd get all inspired. I mean, I love, like, Spanish people. Latin people. I love the language and the culture and I really, you know, I'd love, love to, I'd love to speak Spanish. You've actually lived with a Mexican person. You need to sort it out, Luis.

I know, I'm practicing, but it's also, you know, you're a father, you're, you know, you're speaking English to your family all day, you're speaking on podcasts and interviews all day in English, so you're not, even if I went there, I'd still have to run my business and be speaking in English 10 hours a day. So it's figuring out-- Could you and.

Your partner go to Mexico for like six months? Yeah, I mean, she wants me to live there with her.

I mean, she wants me to move there, but I'm like, My team is here, you know, I want to, you know, I like doing stuff in person and interviews, and this is my mission right now, is to serve humanity. Where are you?

Los Angeles.

Yeah, in LA. And so it's, you know, I could do it, and I could go for a month.

It meant to be Mexico anyway.

The line crossed us. I know. I mean, I think there's 70 million people people that speak Spanish in the USA as well. So I practice here and there, but definitely full immersion would be the fastest way. I just gotta either commit to that or take the long road. So either way, I'm doing it three days a week.

Well done. I didn't mean to sort of, I think I was deflecting from my own feelings of envy and shame because I was actually on the walk that I was having this morning. I was thinking you could get a tutor. Like I said, like I struggle, I'm the same as you. If I'm not good straight away and that, you know, that's why, yeah, I do deserve props for the BJJ. If I'm not good, 'cause I wasn't good straight away and I'm still a beginner at a blue belt, you know, like, I don't like it because I've got a few things that I'm competent at, the stand-up comedy or acting or whatever. Like, I like to stay in that. And also, I guess when I was being nourished or when I was growing up as a kid, I didn't feel confident to be not good at stuff. I felt very ashamed of not being good at football, not being good at fighting. Like, those kind of things felt like a big deal. to not be good at those things, you know? So, yeah, I'm not that patient and tolerant with myself of, you know, and it's a kind of self-love, isn't it? To go, okay, we're gonna gently learn Spanish. We're gonna gently learn the ukulele. You have to learn how to be your father. The father to yourself, don't you? To just.

Okay, it's okay. Don't worry. We're gonna take our time with this. Since your dad was with you a lot during the days, What was the biggest, the greatest lesson he ever taught you?

Well, I think that the biggest lesson he ever taught me is to take everybody you talk to seriously. So with my dad, there really is no gap. I mean, folks who know him, and a lot of folks where I work know my dad, they know that he treats everybody exactly the same. So he, whether it's a member of his family or whether, he's the kind of person where if you get in an elevator with my dad, he will have your entire life story by the time you get out of the elevator. Exactly, it doesn't matter. If it's one floor, he'll be your best friend by the end of it. He has met so many people on airplane rides. That's how my dad is, but he was also like that with us as kids. Meaning that if I had a question, he took it extremely seriously and tried to get the best answer. He always addressed me as though I were an adult when I was a kid. And he took that stuff very seriously. And so for me, that's always been the case. And I think that's one of the reasons why my show and the stuff that I do has particular appeal to young people, because I'm treating these ideas seriously and I'm not dumbing them down for young people. I think there's this perception, first of all, number one, I'm still relatively young, right? I'm only 34 still, but part of that is also in politics, people who think they know a lot about politics tend to think, okay, well if I translate this into second grade level, then that's what people really need. They need me to dumb this stuff down to a level they can understand. I think people are capable of understanding a lot more than they think they're capable of understanding if they're treated with respect in how this stuff is presented. I mean, when I present, I'm presenting at a relatively high level. I mean, I use some $5 words and I cite philosophers and I cite data from actual think tanks and people like that. People want that. People are hungry for that. They're sick of nostrums. I mean, politics is all nostrums. It's all a bunch of people who are just spitting at you slogans, bumper sticker slogans. And we all instinctively know it's appealing just the way that any advertising slogan is appealing. But we all instinctively know it's bullshit. Deep down we all know that when somebody says that they can fix all your problems, it's just garbage. Which is also one of the other messages that I think my dad and my parents inculcated, which is, if you've got a problem, the proper order is that you first look within and see if you can solve it yourself. That accepting that my parents weren't the type of people where if we had a problem at school, they blamed the teacher. Their first question was, okay, did you do it? Right. How can you change it?

How can you respond differently to it? Yeah.

And this is my pet peeve with people I deal with in family, friends, society, is if a good piece of advice is given to you, do you ignore the advice? Do you fight against reality? Are you more angry at reality than you are willing to change yourself? Because if that's the case, you're doomed to lead a pretty miserable life because reality is not changing. That doesn't mean there are certain social circumstances that we can't all work together to change. But if you're running smack into to certain baseline realities, such as some people are smarter and some people are not as smart, and some people earn more money and some people earn less money, and you're living in a free society, and you're running into reality. Like, I made a bunch of bad decisions in my life, and now I'm poorer than I otherwise would be. Or I made a bunch of those decisions. Because of those decisions. Because of those decisions. That ain't society's fault. Maybe you ought to get your stuff together. That's right, maybe you ought to get your stuff together. I mean, there was a joke going around that if I were to run for president, my slogan would have been, your own problems, because for every politician, it's I'm going to solve your problems. And this is something I despise on all sides of the aisle, right? I think that President Trump's taken example campaign on the basis that you have a dying factory town, it's been dying because technology is ripping away those jobs, and because the market doesn't help create new jobs in this particular area. Well, we're not going to say that you should leave your town and go to a different town where the jobs are and treat your life as an adventure and go forth. Instead we're gonna say, no, we're gonna bring those jobs back because it's the Mexican and the Chinese who stole those jobs. That's nonsense, okay? And when you hear the same thing from politicians like Elizabeth Warren who recently spoke at a historically black college and she said to a group of black students that America is inevitably stacked against you, and I'm thinking these are people going to a top level college who majored in probably useful things and will get a job after that major. No, I mean, it's one thing to say that I can cite a specific example of somebody who has discriminated against me, done something bad, here's a specific law that disadvantages me. If your solution is focused, then you should be asking, okay, what is the problem and what is the solution? But I think that we as a country and just generally human beings, we're oriented toward being problem-focused, meaning that something bad happens and we think, okay, how can we complain about this problem? How can we blame this problem on somebody who's not me? As opposed to, okay, how can we solve this problem? How can we take ownership? How can we do something about it? And my wife and I have a basic rule that, this applies in relationships also. So my wife and I have a basic rule that came up very early in our marriage. So my wife was a lovely person and as my listeners know a doctor.

She.

Does a thing that I think many women do. And she will want to talk to me about a problem. And as a man, my first instinct is okay, Here's what we should do. Let's fix it, yeah. And she gets pissed, right? She doesn't actually want the problem solved. She just wants to talk to me about the problem because it makes her feel better. Why can't you listen more? Why can't you? And so I said to her, that's.

Fine, but I need to know upfront.

In the conversation, is this a problem solving conversation? Or is this a me hearing you conversation? Tell me so you understand. Right, so this is an actual rule in our house. When we start addressing a problem, I'll say to her, and she doesn't get offended because she's awesome, I'll say to her, is this a you want me to give you a solution problem or is this a you just want me to listen to you? And very often she'll say, I just want you to listen. It's like, okay good, now I know. Because what's the worst for guys is you say, right, so here's the problem and here's three ways you can solve it. She's like, what are you talking about? So, yeah, I think that's true in politics also. We mix up what it is that we want out of our politicians. We pretend that what we want out of our politicians is solutions. What we actually want out of our politicians is sympathy. The problem is that sympathy does not create solutions. Sympathy is just a way for people to pander to you for votes and money. You should be viewing your politicians like you view your plumbers. Do they solve the problem? You shouldn't be viewing them like you view your psychotherapist. Do they hear me? Do they listen to me?

Wow. You know, it's interesting because about 10 years ago, I was playing professional football, kind of like minor league football. I was getting 250 bucks a week. So it wasn't like I was making a lot of money, but I was doing what I loved. and I got injured and I was sleeping on my sister's couch for about a year and a half afterwards. I didn't have a college degree yet. This was in 2008 when the economy was pretty bad and people with degrees weren't even getting jobs. And I remember thinking at the time, I was like, how am I going to get out of this? And can someone help me out? And this is going to be a struggle. You know, I was thinking like, there's got to be a better way for people like me who can get taken care of. And then I realized after my sister you know, lovingly kicked me off her couch after a year and a half. She was like, you need to start paying rent. Get a good job, do something. I remember saying, okay, what if I could solve this problem? As opposed to being a victim to society, what happened to me or whatever, what if I could solve this problem and be in complete ownership of every decision I've made up to here? And I think one of the reasons I don't follow politics or watch the news or do any of that stuff is because I tried to instill what you talked about. with people on this show, which is like, how do we overcome our own challenges? By not putting the blame on someone else, by not hoping for someone else to save us or rescue us or to give us a higher minimum wage or whatever it may be, but how can we develop skills with the society we're in? How can we develop new skills, be more valuable to society so that we can earn more? How can we take care of our health better so we're not sick and needing medicine? medicine or someone to supplement that through whatever it may be, some financial aid through medicine. How can we just take care of our lives better and improve the quality of our life? And I think when we can focus more on improving the quality of our lives, the political things don't really matter as much.

Well, this is right.

What's happening in the world doesn't matter.

What John Adams said, and I think this is right, is that the Constitution of the United States and what he meant by this is freedom is really only built for moral and religious people. What he meant by that really is that if you've got a group of people who are waiting around for somebody else to save them externally, you can't have a system where even we can take care of each other, right? There are going to be situations in which the community needs to come together and take care of people who legitimately can't take care of themselves or are going through a rough stretch. Understood. All that's right. But if you don't have a group of people who are motivated not to take advantage of that or who are not being told by politicians that they should be taking advantage of it, or that society has a duty, you know, why don't we focus on our own duties more than we focus on everybody else's duties to us? We focus a lot on rights in our society, we have a right to X, Y, and Z. We focus very little on what are our duties to ourselves and to society.

And that doesn't make us happier, it.

Makes us more depressed. What's the difference between rights and duties? So rights are, so there are a couple different visions of rights, and I think that this is where we actually get political. So I think that there are two different visions of rights. According to people on the on the right, on conservatives, what rights are are things that you have a right to do X without government controlling you. So basically these are called negative rights. This is the parlance that's sort of used, is that you have a right against the government. So for example, I have a right to free speech. What that really means is the government does not have the ability to compel me to speak in a certain way.

Or- no matter what I say, anything at all, even threats or- well, not.

Threats because that's actual assault, but something But anything that's not indicating violence, for example, I have a right to say because the government does not have the power to encroach upon that.

If someone grabs you by the throat and says you're gonna be in an ambulance if you keep speaking, that's illegal.

That's actually a violation of the law. But me saying something that offended that person is not a violation of the law, right? And the government can't compel that. So the idea for people who believe in sort of traditional constitutional freedoms is that the Bill of Rights is an expression of a bunch of negative rights for the most part, things where right to freedom of religion means the government can't impose upon you. Things that would exist in what John Locke would call a state of nature, that if there were no government, you just lived in a community with your families or whatever, that the government wouldn't be there to impose things on you, so what would you have without the government imposing anything on you? So right to bear arms is the government does not have the right to take away your arms. Now, what people on the left have said is that those rights are not sufficient. You need actual material goods to provide you with a sense of well-being sufficient that you can lead a happy life. So for example, a right to health care. That's something that we have to force somebody to provide for you, whether it's through taxation or forcing a doctor to take care of you. A right to health care is an affirmative duty on someone else. A right to free speech is an affirmative duty. If I'm just sitting here, I have a right to free speech. Have I forced you to do anything?

The answer is no.

If I have a right to health care and I get hurt, work, now I have to compel somebody to provide that health care for me, right? Because I have a right to it, which means that it doesn't matter if I'm just sitting here, the health care doesn't just arrive, there has to be a doctor qualified to take care of me, and if that doctor doesn't want to take care of me, he has to be forced to take care of me or she has to be forced to take care of me. So that's true for rights to health care, right to education, right to any of the rights of housing, many of the rights that folks on the left side. So when I say rights versus duties, This applies broadly to virtually all rights, but particularly it's important for people who believe in a positive version of rights. So the right to free speech comes along with the duty, if you want to have a functioning society is what I'm talking about. Yeah. The right to free speech comes along with a duty not to be a generalized jackass. Because if you do that, it wrecks the social fabric, right? So if you're just going around, like, I believe that you have a right to call somebody an ethnic slur. You do, you have a right.

It's not illegal.

So, if you do it... It's a right, but it's not a... It's a bad thing to do, right? It's a wrong. It's a right, but it's a wrong. It can be wrong in your use of rights. People do it all the time. People do stuff I don't approve of all the time. That's legal. That's good. I'm glad it's legal.

But if they act, if people act.

Like jackasses within the bounds of their rights all the time, there's no social fabric. We can't live together. If you're just offending people all day long, then what's the point of being here? Right, exactly. And if the offense comes with a point, and we actually have to have a substantive conversation. That's one thing. This is a conversation I had a lot during 2016 about President Trump, and also a conversation I had about a couple of folks who are kind of alt-right in Milo Yiannopoulos, for example, is they would say things that were deliberately taboo just to say, I want to say something that's taboo because we have to break political correctness. And what I said was, political correctness is only bad if it's trying to bar speech that is valuable, meaning that if there's a politically correct taboo against using the N-word. Agree, very bad to use the N-word. No one should use the N-word. I'm not gonna say the N-word just to violate the politically correct taboo because it's bad to say the N-word. But if you're gonna tell me that it's political, that political correctness says that I am no longer allowed to say that male and female are biological categories, that's a valuable thing that has ramifications for society, they're on anti-political correctness. So that's an example of you have a right to say bad things, but shouldn't do them just to be a jerk. The same thing holds true when it comes to positive rights, and I think the left has failed to recognize this, particularly when they cite, for example, the Nordic countries. They'll say, well, there's a right to health care. Okay, let's assume that you're right. I disagree. I don't think there's a right to health care. I don't think you can compel somebody else to provide your health care. I think that's wrong. But let's take your point of view for a second, that there's a right to health care.

Well, this should come along with a constant duty to take care of yourself. So if you are- if you're smoking.

And drinking and never move your your.

Body and you're eating junk food all day, then you're not taking care of yourself.

Right, and then you are throwing the obligations, the externalities, onto this entire other group of people. Well, they'll save you. Right, and the reason that, one of the reasons that you've been able to support, practically speaking, a larger social welfare state in places like the Nordic countries that Bernie Sanders likes, you know, I'm not a Sanders fan, but places like Sweden or Norway or Denmark, is because they have a very strong social fabric where everybody is, for, everybody knows. Yeah, people know their neighbors, they feel an obligation To take an example, they help each other. Right, you saw Cinderella man, so the movie with Russell Crowe. I didn't see it. Oh, you didn't see it? Okay, James Jay Braddock, okay, so James Jay Braddock is this champion boxer who rises from being basically on welfare, right? Okay, so you remember there's a scene in it where he's been on the welfare rolls and now he's the champion of the world, right? And he goes back into the welfare office with a roll of cash and he hands it back to the welfare agent. Well, and they say, well, you don't have to do that. He says, no, I do have to do that, 'cause that's a duty that I owe to you, right? I no longer need the welfare. -Right. -Right. It wasn't his right in the duty. -Right. It's a duty for me to bring that cash back to you. That's something that I think Americans have lost, and it's something that also happens in the context of government taking care of us, because the government is by nature faceless. The government is a barrier between you and your fellow citizen. When you get a check from the government, you tend to think, ah, the government, it's what's giving me the check. The government doesn't have any cash providing the government is taking money from another human. Well, if the, we don't think about that way in our churches or synagogues, right? Like, I belong to a synagogue. When somebody in our community has a financial problem, we all get together and we contribute to the person via the rabbi. He'll go to the rabbi, the rabbi will come to us and say, this person is having a rough month, we need to pay his rent. Can we all get together and do that? Well, that's good in the sense that this person knows who exactly is giving him the money and he feels an obligation to all those people not to mooch off of them because we all share our community together. Well, that sort of social fabric has to exist. That feeling of obligation has to exist if we are to have functioning rights in the first place. And that includes people who believe that you have a right to other people's stuff.

Yeah. Wow. I love this. Now, I'm curious, what was the biggest lesson that your mom taught you growing up?

So my mom is really different from my dad and for a variety of reasons, and she eminent practical. So she is she was --You're dad's the artist. --Exactly, exactly and visionary and likes to dream. And my mom was like okay yeah but who's gonna sign the check? And so that's where my mom comes in. And so, you know, I'm a little I'm a lot less Yiddish than my dad even though I talk a lot. My dad talks even more than I do. And my mom is a lot more kind of to the point, the warden in Yiddish is tahklis. She's like she's very like down to the meat of it. And so from her it's more a manner of we're not gonna waste time, we're gonna get right to the point, we're gonna get things done. And so she's because she's very practical. And so I would say that the lesson that I learned from her is just like go do it now, like stop talking, just go do it right now. Like if you don't have an excuse then you shouldn't be wasting time doing that. Wow. And so my dad taught a lot of kind of life lessons about morality and decency. And my mom was much more about like, you got to take action now. You need to go out and you need to move.

Make a plan.

Like this is always, honestly, I've had depressed folks in my family and I know I have friends who have been depressed before. And to me, you're not talking about clinical depression obviously where you need actual care. But if you're talking about just you're down, the number one thing you should.

Do is make a plan.

Literally get a piece of paper. My goals. And a pencil and write down a bunch of goals and then write Concrete.

Steps, step by step.

This is correct. And then when you're not- It's Jordan Peterson's way. Yeah, exactly. And I think, honestly, I don't think it's Jordan's way or my way or I think it's everybody's way, right? The successful people in life make lists of things they want to do. And then if you really want to be successful, then what you do is you take the little things first, you cross those off, it gives you a feeling of momentum, and then you can tackle the big things. I think it's a big mistake for.

People to think, okay, well my goal is to be president. And so here's a list of 100 things I'm gonna do. How about take out the garbage first?

Yeah.

Make your bed. Right, as Jordan says. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think the key is that's why routines and habits are such a big hot topic right now. It's just like when you have a routine where you do something every day, you build momentum, you start to feel better, you feel less depressed. And if we don't have something to aim at, then we are aimless. We feel like we're just wandering in no man's land. And the worst comes to us as.

Opposed to us creating the best for ourselves. Exactly, and I think that this does have some deep philosophical roots. So I have a book that's coming out in March and it talks sort of about why suicide is up and why depression is up. And my basic thesis is that we're sort of living, so I talked at the very beginning about eternal values. I think there are certain eternal values that undergird our free and prosperous civilization. And we're living on the fumes of those values, having undermined a lot of those values.

Maybe a few of the core values you're talking about.

Okay, so I think that there are four things that human beings need to be happy. You need individual purpose, so you're alone on a desert island, what do you do today? What gives you meaning? So you need an individual purpose, you need individual capacity, so you need to feel like you have the capacity to do something. You live in a world where you have free will, where you can make a freely willed decision, where your reason is capable of understanding things. You can think things through and make a good set of decisions on your own. You have to believe that the universe is predictable enough that things aren't magically changing around you and harming you and victimizing you. So you need that on the individual level and then you need the same on a communal level. You need to feel that we together have something to do, right? As Americans, we have something to do, right? Or as a religious community, we have something to do. Or as a group of friends, we have something to do. And then you need to feel like there's communal capacity. We as a group of people can do it without violating the rights of the individual. Now, my view is that Western civilization was really good at creating a system where people had all four of these things based on, historically speaking, a unique set of circumstances that springs from Jerusalem and Athens. So Judeo-Christian values, these ideas that there is free will that you can act within the world, that there is a creator who stands behind a rational universe, that you have the capacity to understand that universe if you apply your thinking to that universe, that you are made, you have an estimable value, right? You are made in God's image. These are things that come from the Judeo-Christian value system and that you have an obligation to your fellow man to treat your fellow man in certain ways. And these are things that come again from the Judeo-Christian value system. And then on the other hand, you have Athens, which is the idea that reason and logic can allow you to delve into the depths of the universe and really understand the world around you and to apply that reason to even the biblical rules that you receive, where you can say, okay, well new evidence has arisen. That means that we may have gotten our original interpretation of this rule wrong. So let's reinterpret the rule in a way that meets the evidence. So for example, The most obvious example is if you are a biblical believer, there are a lot of people now who are creationists. I'm not a creationist. So, I'm a creationist in the sense I believe God stands behind the creation of the universe, but there are people who believe literally that God created the universe in six 24-hour days in exactly the order described by the Bible. I don't believe that. I believe that the evidence shows that that's not the case, which means that God was giving a document as a religious person, as a religious Jew, God.

Was giving a document to human beings.

In language we can understand at the time, but that doesn't necessarily mean-- so it's not the literal word, it's the interpretation. Well, right. The interpretation was always taken for granted because as human beings, that's what we do. Anytime I say something to you, you're interpreting. So if God says something to me, I'm also interpreting, and God knows that because he's omniscient. So the basic interplay, the tension between faith and reason, is what created the West, because without certain core assumptions, then you couldn't actually feel as though you have capacity to operate in the world. So I think we've ripped away a lot of these things. I think we've ripped away the Judeo-Christian value system. We've said that you don't need to go to church, the Bible is worthless, not only that, it's oppressive, it's repressive, it sets up all these standards. And you, you have the capacity to make your own meaning. People suck at making their own meaning, but you have the capacity to make your own meaning. And you can make your own world, your own set of morals. Well, the problem is that the same book, the same set of values, created the set of morals and meaning, also says that you are made in God's image, that you have inestimable value as a human being that separates you from the animals, that you are not just a series of firing synapses adapting evolutionarily to your environment. Okay, take all that stuff away too. Now explain to me how you are a freely willed creature who can make a difference in your world. And the answer is, you can. Now you're a meatball wandering through space. So I think that what happens over the course of the last couple centuries is that Western civilization got rid of all the bases for why human beings are unique, which are religious assumptions. And then it substituted reason. But reason requires certain religious assumptions. And so what we ended up with is we are a bunch of emotional creatures who are manipulated by our environment. And so that being the case, you actually don't have the power to do anything in your life. You're just what you are, right? You may think you're willing things, but you're not willing things. You're basically here. You're doing stuff just because you're doing stuff. and life doesn't have any higher meaning. There's no purpose to serve, even getting married and procreation and all this stuff. That's pleasure, but that's not actual meaning. That's not actual purpose. Well, pleasure can be a purpose, but it is not a purpose high enough to actually drive people to do the right thing. It also doesn't explain why you should be altruistic, why you should help out other people, why you should worry about what happens after you die, why you should, I'm not even preaching the afterlife here. I'm preaching that there are certain values inherent to being a human being that say that you should care about something beyond yourself, as a society we focus very much inward. We're very subjective now. Meaning is made by us. Biology apparently is defined by us. We get to define the world around us in our own personal terms. And again, we suck at it. We are not good at it. People don't create their own meanings. You either feel that there is meaning that is discoverable out there in the universe and that is your job to go find it. This is where Jordan and I are really on the same page. Or you are sitting in a chair trying to convince yourself that the meaning was made by you.

Yeah.

And it wasn't. And if it was, then why is your meaning any better than anybody else's meaning?

Right.

Is that what you think people are suffering and more depressed than ever right now?

I think that's the cause without them knowing it. I think that the question is what gets you up in the morning? What's your mission today? And I think that we've been basically, as long as you don't look at it, you're okay, right? As long as you don't look too deeply at the problem, You're right, so you just say, okay, well my goal is to act morally today. And you say, okay, well where do morals come from? And then we all get very uncomfortable, right? I know what's right, I'm a nice person. Okay, define nice. Define person. I mean, define all these terms. But those having no roots, that's why if you strip three layers down, then none of it makes any sense. And so I think that you've seen this manifest in basically, well, I'll let everybody do what they want, I'll do what I want, now I'll be happy. that's not right. I mean, happiness according to Judeo-Christian values was in service of God and in Greek thought, happiness was at least in large part living in coordination with reason. And so we've said we don't have to live in coordination with reason to be happy. And we've said we don't need to serve God or our fellow man in order to be happy. So what exactly is it that's supposed to make us happy? Now food? TV?

Even if those who are watching you're listening are not religious or don't believe in God, I'm sure that you've done the research on just the studies of what brings people happiness.

Right. You know, the religion is one of these things, by the way. I mean, it is deeply tied in.

Or a core belief system, right? A belief in something greater than yourself.

Well, and this is the thing, people are religious even if they don't want to be. So, if you're not, you are going to be religious about a thing.

The question is, what are you going to be religious about? Before we continue this video, make sure to subscribe below and turn on the notification bell right now so you don't miss out on these great videos every single day. What are your thoughts on this? Having a dream that is inside of your soul for years that you never fully commit to? You never, you dabble again like we've done so much in so many things we dabble, but you never fully commit to. What does that do to us if we continue on for the rest of our life, never fully going all in on our dreams?

I think it obviously reinforces the idea of incompetence or it reinforces the idea that you are incapable of following through. And I feel like you, we have an obligation to follow that, or as you say, put it, put it aside entirely. And watch the, you Look, we all know in the grim economies of our lives, if we were to put aside staring at some goddamn, senseless social media platform and give that time to learn in Spanish, we'd speak Spanish by now.

Or in four languages.

Yeah, yeah. So like, you have to be willing. That's why someone like, you know, Tony Robbins is so sort of you think, because that man, he just makes those choices. Like, if you ever heard him tell the story about how he, like, learned Polo who's just like, I'm f***ing ill. Like every time I come, whenever I'm walking my dog, I feel like, I'm friends with Tony and I've told him this. I say like, whenever I'm walking my dog or anything, I feel like, oh this is not, Tony wouldn't be doing this. Tony be learning something now. Well, you know, you could be learning Spanish while you walk the dog. You know, like, I mean, he's powerful, but he He is a one off, let's face it.

Yeah, I just actually interviewed him again yesterday and it reminded me that he learned, I think, to become a black belt, like while he was on tour for two or three years and he was like, I did it the fastest time anyone's been a black belt. I had the master come on stage and like behind the scenes, in between sessions, I would spend 45 minutes, then go back on stage. I was like, you,'re an animal. The commitment, It's unbelievable.

What was that, like what martial art is that?

I think he just learned, I think he learned karate. I think it was, this was probably decades ago when he was like, I'm gonna learn this, but I'm on tour. And he brought the guy with him to just teach him all day in between on stage. So it's been- One of the things.

I most admire about him is that the way that he will identify an objective and then not be restricted by sort of our conditioned, either emotional or cultural responses. Admittedly, we're talking about someone with some incredible resources. yes, we are now. But the reason he's got those resources is because of this ability that he will just go, okay, I'm gonna learn that thing. They haven't put aside all of the, yeah, there's not time, there's not this, there's not that.

He eliminates excuses. He just says, there is no room, and he goes all in on his desires. It's pretty powerful.

Tony, you exhausting genius.

One of the things I think that holds a lot of people back, myself included, is when we doubt ourselves, when we don't believe in our own abilities or what we're capable of creating in the future. What do you think are some ways that we can overcome self-doubt in ourselves to gain that real confidence, not fake confidence, but overcome the doubts that hold us back from asking that person out or going after that career opportunity or just saying, I'm going to go after what I want in my life. What are some ways to eliminate that self-doubt and gain confidence?

Well, self-doubt can be critical, Lewis, because it can be a component of awareness. I feel that the answer must always be the embarkation on a spiritual life because it's difficult, isn't it, in this world of personal development that we find ourselves in. for us not to take on the tropes and objectives of a culture that I think at this point we need to be querying and looking to move away from. We've all been deeply inculcated to believe that the pursuit of happiness is contingent upon the attainment of our petty, trivial desires. But real happiness is contingent on being free from those petty, trivial desires. As long as I'm a prisoner to that, like, you know, see if someone's like that. That doesn't know. Again, then can't pluck up the confidence to ask someone out or can't pluck up the confidence to pursue their dream or whatever. For me, I don't feel like it's my job to operate at that. That intersection. At the intersection of, well, come on, believe in yourself. You're as good as anyone else. You never know unless you I don't think that's my job. My job is like, why do you think you want this? What do you think it's going to do for you? What do you want really? What do you really want? What do you really want? What is it you are looking for? A friend of mine observed once that in the 1980s, the prominent sort of entrepreneurs were all about zipping about on speedboats and whooshing through the skies in hot air balloons, intrepid, bold, world adventurers. The very same tycoons now are all about greenness and ecology and safety and helping, responding to the trends that define a time, this time now of apparent fragility. I think our job is to look for some truth beneath culture, that culture in many cases is not our friend. Culture is here to chain us to systems of tyranny, subtle tyranny. What is freedom really? if it is only freedom to operate within certain parameters. It isn't freedom at all. I'm not saying I wouldn't rather be a person who's affluent in California than a person that's sort of poor in, I don't know, Tehran or Senegal or, you know, I'm not gonna be poor anywhere, frankly. It's pretty grim to be poor anywhere in the world. I've been poor in places before. But I don't feel like our job is to train people to bend themselves into a shape where they can succeed within these systems. I think our job is to train people so that they learn to challenge these systems, to create fairer systems that are not solely built upon the fulfillment of individual goals. My friend Adam Curtis, the great filmmaker and genius, says the genius out of the bottle now on individualism, it's never going back in. You're never gonna be able to tell people, hey, why don't you forget your own identity? You're just a member of a community, of a collective, of a parish. you know, that's not gonna happen now. Everyone, nothing is as real to you or I as our own thoughts, as our own dreams is our own, but that's just the way it is now. But perhaps through this we can attain some meaning and if I refer back even to my own suggestions, serve the thing you are pursuing. You know, if it's like you really want to go out of a boy or a girl, why are you looking to serve them or do you think they're gonna somehow solve or absolve you? You see them as some salve, or if you're after some dream, why? Is it because you don't feel like you're good enough or you're worthy? You know, one of my friends said to me that you're like someone who's been up to the all-you-can-eat buffet table, stuffed your face full of everything, and then then going to everyone else, you don't need this stuff.

You don't need it.

This cake won't work for you. But I have had this experience, so you know, you know, anyone that's saying, well, that's easy for you to say, then, yeah, God damn it, they're right. Whether it wasn't that easy to get here, let me tell you. And, like, so. But what I would say is this is. I would say. I would say this, that you are beautiful, that you are enough, that you deserve to feel content and happy. But you have to be willing to surrender everything. You have to be willing to surrender everything. You have to be willing to accept that what you think you should get. might not be right. Where did it come from that idea? Where did that idea that, you know, 'cause if you are meant to be a world-class athlete, if you get on and do, you know, I mean, do the Tony Robbins version of get on and do the work, don't let anything stand in your way, believe in it, be willing to suffer, have the discipline, make the sacrifices, then that's all sort of cool. But if there's any reason you're becoming a world-class athlete, it's 'cause your father told you you're not good enough and that you're cheap and you ain't no kind of a man or woman or whatever, then that you don't need to deal with that. Otherwise you're gonna end up strung up in a hotel room one way or another, you know, because it doesn't like, you know, like you and I both know enough people. Like I've having experienced the type of celebrity that I experienced. I've met people that, as I'm sure you have, that are in at the Apex, the Zenith. They have enjoyed it. They have been to Kubla Khan. They've had it. They're in there. drowning in riches and drowning indeed because it's not real. It's not real. Never lose sight of the fact that we are in limitless space in every direction. Never lose sight of the fact that in the subparticular world, the rules of physics as we previously understood them are falling apart. Never lose sight of the fact that our senses are limited and we can only see 0.63% of the electromagnetic range that we are operating essentially in darkness that the neural activity that we experience that constitutes our reality is only a tiny percentage of the potential of our own brain, let alone the potential brain of God. Wouldn't it be a coincidence if we were issued with all of the senses necessary to experience total reality? Isn't it more likely that we think of reality as just being the circumference of our sensual world? So there are limitless experiences as yet unheard and and many of them lay in the realm of mystery. Engage with the mystery, meditate, pursue these spiritual disciplines. Don't rely entirely on the material path. This is not like, you know, neglect the body or hate the body. Love the body. We are in this material world. We are God-made flesh. We are having this experience in bodies. But I don't think you can take what this culture is offering you as a solution and think that it will be a solution. You'll be Disappointed. The map is not the territory. The map is not the territory. When you get there, it's not like that. It's not like that. So, you start where you are. Start with you now.

Absolutely, absolutely. I have about 17 more hours of questions, but I'm gonna ask you about four final questions to respect our time and maybe we can do another follow-up in the future. with the next book you have. This book, Revelation, it's hard for me to finish books. It's really hard for me to finish them with, you know, growing up with a learning disability, reading and writing was not my forte. But I finished it and it was beautiful. It was unbelievable spoken word poetry. And I don't know how you do what you do. It's an incredible gift and a talent and people just need to listen. listen to it and just to hear how talented you are as a spoken word artist. It's unbelievable. But the way you were able, we had many and many of the people that you mentioned throughout there, I've had the fortune of knowing and interviewing Wim Hof and all these other individuals. Yeah, I went to Poland. I took 13 guys to Poland last year and did five days with Wim and, you know, have had him on many times and had some great kind of spiritual experiences in Poland with him playing the guitar, singing and us jumping in ice rivers and and climbing up mountains naked in the snow and crazy stuff that we did together. Our friend Jay Shetty connected us and I've done many weeks in India meditating at different places and I'm on a constant journey for myself and that's why I really wanted to have this conversation with you. There's many things I want to ask you, hopefully for another time. But I grew up in a religion called Christian Science. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Christian Science. but there's a, it's a lot about the things you've been talking about and the things you talk about in your audio book on Audible. And one of the things that the founder, her name is Mary Baker Eddy, said back in the 1800s was Stan Porter at the door of thought. And that really stood with me as a child growing up in this religion. I'm no longer really active in the church or anything, but the foundation is still with me. of the mindset. Stan Porter at the Door of Thought. And I'm curious, how do you manage negative thoughts when they try to enter your mind? What's your practice beyond meditation and the things you talk about in your book and your YouTube channel, which is incredible? But how do you really navigate negative thoughts that come into mind? The thoughts of addiction, the thoughts of lust or greed or fame or whatever the things that are coming to you that you've tasted this buffet you've tasted for years. How do you manage that? Well, it's what I do is I.

Don'T try and do it alone. You know, like, I think that's a very beautiful piece of language and a lovely experience you just shared with me, mate. And the way that, like, I experienced negative thoughts a lot, experienced a lot of fear and, you know, like, all of the things that you've listed, here's a very practical way that I deal with it. I'm like, I felt like I was looking at social media too long in particular. Like, you know, I'm like, when I do YouTube videos, I feel like I'm justified. and checking, oh, how many views did it get, you know, and what are the comments? But I have worked with people that can handle that. I'm not qualified to handle that sort of stuff because otherwise I get, I go into a point where I'm sort of numbed by it. Like, it's not like the people saying nice things really helps me or the people saying bad things really hurts me. It's like a sort of a numb, dumb stare. And so, like, I sort of, you know, then someone reached out to me, it's like famous musician. She's sort of told me, I'm, like, looking at stuff too much. And I goes, all right, well, from now on, right, one day at a time. me and you, whenever we're thinking about doing that, let's reach out to each other, you know? And like, so I start doing it with her, hey, I'm thinking of doing it now, and we talk about the feelings that we have and what it elicits in us when we want to do it and what it feels like to not do it. You know, if you want to know if you're addicted to something, see what happens to you when you stop doing it, then you will know.

Then you will know.

Oh, I'm no, I could stop anytime. Stop then. Try it. Like, oh my God, I'm ashamed. I'm full of fear. And then, like, similar with pornography, if I don't want to look at pornography, but not judgment on anyone else who does, but like for me, if I think, oh no, I don't like how I feel, how it accumulatively makes me feel, then I make a choice that I'm going to reach out to someone else who's, sometimes it helps specifically with that thing, you know, like I've done it before with someone like my mate didn't want to eat no more bad food and I was cool with food at that time. so I was like, well, I don't want to look at porn. So if I'm, when I want to look at porn, I'll check you, you were the food, you know, so we do it like, and it's not even, that's non-hierarchical by the way, we're both sort of people that are just sort of trying it and trying to improve ourselves together. I also have mentors that I know evidently you do, like they're further down the path than me. And like, you know, for me, I tend to use the mentors in a, with a broader, you know, with a broader strokes, like, you know, this is how I'm feeling about family. This is how I'm feeling about being a man. This is how I'm feeling about fatherhood, work, whatever it is, you know, I check in with them. And then you've got to listen to them. Then you already like, see if you, you know, if you have the privilege of access to people like Wim Hof or Tony Robbins, and you ask Tony Robbins, what should I do? And then Tony Robbins tells you, do it. Do it. You know, like, you know, and then, like, then you're suddenly, you've got Tony Robbins's brain, then you're running off of that, you know, now a lot of time, what Tony Robbins tells you might be unachievable.

Simple.

Okay, all you gotta do is become a black ball in world. Oh, tell me something easier. Like, you know, like, you know, sort of like with, you know, with Wim Haf or whatever. All these sort of peculiar yogis and Genii, we've lost sacredness, broadly speaking, in our culture. That's what that book is about. How do you reconnect with sacredness after we've sort of decided, oh, those ideas, they're old-fashioned they don't really work. They're not for me. Or they've become compromised by their. own hypocrisy or dogma or whatever it is. You know, like, you've got, like, for me, it becomes find it everywhere. Find it everywhere. Find every conversation. What is the sacredness? What is the beauty of the person that you are dealing with? What is your job in this moment? Are you taking or are you giving? And I have to legitimately ask myself these questions all the time because, and, you know, God, the only advantage that I have over someone like Tony Robbins is I think that I'm still in it. Like, you know, I talked to Tony Robbins or Eckhart Tolle or whoever, and I thought, my God, these people are like, in their own ways, transcended masters. Like, so, like, it's like if you're asking, you know, sort of a Maradona about football, like, you know, God rest his soul. Like, you know, like, he can't tell you what he does. He doesn't know how he does that. No one knows. That's the, like, the point of it, you know, like, but some of us, he's like, look, I'm on, like, every day. I know, like, you know, like, I think I say in, in that book, I certainly say it places, like, you know, Eckhart Tolle, he lives there. He lives in the awakened state, moment to moment, fully present, returned to the present. like, you know, he's sort of like he says, the second he comes off the stage from talking, that experience is done. That's it. You can never be happy in the conceptual mind. Whenever you're thinking anything, whenever you're comparing or projecting, you could. The conceptual mind will always make you unhappy. It can't make you happy, you know, like that.

And, like, so.

But for me, I go to those places, Louis, I get there, but I come back. I come back for the chocolate. I come back, you know, I do. Oh, my Lord. If God we're all one, right? I'm just gonna have a bit of chocolate or have a wank, you know, like, I can't get out of the mud.

The monkey mind. Yeah, the monkey mind. I hear you.

When you think of punishment, threat, and dad saying, no, that isn't discipline.

Discipline is discipline.

If you discipline someone properly, they become disciplined, right? That means they're competent.

They're organized. They have structure. They have, yeah.

They can control themselves.